On free speech, satire, et al. · 1:27am Jul 18th, 2020
Awhile back, in the Before Times, I remember hearing about somebody doing a statistical study of FiMFiction's networking, and concluding that the website was actually host to several different interconnected mini-fandoms. So, like, you've got the clopfic writers over there, the Fallout: Equestria guys over there, and the people with discerning literary tastes are following me and reading this blog post right now.
With this interconnectivity in mind, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you've already read folks like Aragon and/or Aquaman putting things far better than I could. So, y'know. Go read those.
And yet, as I see the newest drama flaming across the website, I can't help but weigh in myself. Mostly because the alternative is wading into some weirdo's blog comments to call them a fucking bootlicker, but hey. That's their fault for licking so many boots.
Still, it's just ... tiring to see the arguments flare up, and to see so much 'OH NURR DON'T CENSOR ME! IT'S MY RIGHT TO POST HATEFUL SHIT CUZ IT'S IRONIC (until it isn't)' reactionary bullshit flare up. And not only that, there's a ... depressing amount of support for the other side. Which ... well, it's just the end result of an 'irony' based fandom springing from the fetid swamp of 4chan, I guess. It's the kind of thing that makes me wonder if they should just pull the plug on FiMfiction already. Maybe a few survivors could migrate over to AO3 or something. They seem to have their shit together over there (then again, I could be wrong).
Because I am a pretentious git, I see myself as a satirist. The back-and-forth metatextual nature of the pony fandom is fascinating to me-- as well as something that I've taken more than a few swings at, because seriously. There's a lot of stuff about the fandom that is dumb and therefore hilarious. And hell, now that I write that out, I have ... vague ideas to lampoon the current situation, but I honestly don't have it in me. (Because I'm not drunk at the moment).
Still, the 'satire' that these so-called free speech crusaders seem to be defending just boils down to 'hur hur, wouldn't it be funny if the cute horse was RACIST?!' And ... that's it. That's the joke.
It's a bad joke.
So, for a crash course in satire done RIGHT, let's take a lesson from a master of comedy, Mel Brooks.
One can debate whether or not The Producers would be made today, but there's no arguing Mel Brooks' comedic genius. And shoot, now that I think of it, I'm kind of glad that the assholes haven't tried co-opting "Springtime for Hitler" yet. Maybe it's just 'cause nazis can't sing (except for the one guy in Cabaret, I guess).
Still, as audacious as "Springtime for Hitler" is, it's got a lot going on. For one, the only guy in the movie who's an ACTUAL nazi is the play's author (the dude in the helmet), who is consistently portrayed as the dumbest character in the movie (which is saying something). Then there's the in-movie explanation that the musical number is being put on in the first place because Gene Wilder & Zero Mostel's characters are intentionally trying to put on the worst possible play ever. And then, perhaps most importantly, is the matter of the audience. Just look at the reactions. They're shocked. Their reaction isn't "oh man, someone is finally saying the stuff that polite society won't let me say!" but rather "what the fuck is this?" Hell, the audience rightly slaps around the one dude who DOES clap.
In turn, the later 'twist' that turns Springtime for Hitler from a flop into a satirical hit isn't the musical number. Rather, it's the doped-out buffoonery of the dude playing Hitler that gets the audience laughing for the later twist (Which isn't in the video I linked, but the movie's worth a watch anyway). Which is something the Broadway musical (and subsequent adaptation) cuts, and is kind of weaker for it, but I digress.
What I'm trying to say is, good satire has layers. It's got a clear and concise target of who it's making fun of. Hell, even South Park (tiresome as that show is these days) at least has some ideas behind it. Dumb ideas, quite often, but those still count. So when somebody draws a picture of a unicorn in a SS outfit, just ... what's the idea there, exactly?
'cause honestly, dude, that kinda shit ain't a good look.
Like I said, it's a bad joke.
I've heard AO3 had plenty of Nazi shit too, but haven't checked it out yet. Because their site is a flaming turd. I mean, it's not fanfiction.net, but still. Flaming turd.
Honestly, if somebody wants to claim satire and irony when they do something like that, a firm reminder that too many people see it as serious for it to be either satirical or ironic. So they can take their contribution and shove it where Celestia's sun doesn't shine. "Your 'sense of humor' is not appreciated or welcome."
On a completely different note, I've found my personal 'network' radically shifting over the past couple months. Up until this situation boiled over I'd largely been following/interacting with people based on how I felt about their stories and whether I could expect more stories I like to be submitted by them. It has since shifted to focus on this new problem and how others align with my beliefs. The change from content to sociological could probably be a case study on how extremism pushes people to either support or fight it with little middle ground and fosters a "with us or against us" attitude on both sides.
That stuff isn't intended as a joke, it's an open signal to like-minded people. The "joke" excuse is just that, an excuse. Like when a bully tells a teacher, "We were just playing," to excuse the smaller kid's bloody nose.
The top story in the feature box right now is testing the waters... seeing how far they can push the boundaries. I've lived long enough to know that nobody dances on the edge unless they want to be on the other side. The people going on about the "suppression" of freedom of speech on this site are bigots and racists... or possibly profoundly stupid, but
I haven't run into one of those yet.Nope... they exist.5312226
I was going to say that bigots and racists are profoundly stupid, but that is sadly not the case. Perhaps the most frustrating thing about this whole situation is how many of them are genuinely intelligent people.
Anyways, do you mean Scootaloo's Gift? I haven't read it yet. Or do I need to turn off the Mature filter? (eew, clop)
I can't comment on AO3 having nazi problems, but what I can say is that it's not nearly as good as FIMFiction in basically every technical aspect. There are so many things I take for granted here that AO3 just doesn't have. Also, if you're looking for anything other than M/M shipping fluff, you're shit out of luck because that's pretty much half of the site's content (I'm not even joking, IIRC there's more M/M stories than there are F/F stories and stories with no ships put together, and it might be even if you added M/F, it makes looking for long adventure stories and stuff a nightmare)
5312334
Yep, mature filter off and you'll see I did not see that coming!, a clop fic starring Aryanne and a guy who is referred to a "a Jew" several times. Sterling stuff.
I'm convinced that the people defending Nazi free speech (and being conspicuously silent on, say, the BLM, or actively opposing it) are nearly all white cis guys. People who don't see the far right as a threat to them, even if they don't actually support it; they just don't feel like it needs to be actively opposed. You don't see any Jews or Black people, or trans folks, etc. clamoring for the rights of the poor, oppressed Nazis and alt-right and white supremacists to keep on pushing their shit, because those people know exactly what will happen to them if the Nazis and such gain power. It's happening to them already, has been for ages.
I don't know who said it, but I feel the need to quote them right now: Satire is mocking the powerful, not the powerless.
5312619
Yeah. Punch up, not down.
Anyone who takes the "defend to the death your right to say it" stance, I just have to...
Like, you really want to defend Nazis? With your life? Is that what you want?
But most of them were probably already turned anyway. :/
Fimfiction should ban hateful content. Nazi content can be posted elsewhere, so it's no violation of free speech. It's not like fimfiction has a monopoly on fanfiction posting (fanfiction.net, ao3, google docs, pastebin, your own domain, tumblr, deviant art)
How can we distinguish serious Nazi content from a legitimate but failed attempt at satire? Sometimes you can't. But, they both create the same effect: building a toxic culture. So it doesn't really matter, and they should both be restricted.
You make a very compelling point, but have you considered the sheer delight of doing something someone doesn't want you to do? Because that's where we're stuck at right now.
5312619
It's mocking the cancel crowd and the moral crusaders. Those do seem pretty powerful these days indeed. A bait that makes sense in context.
It is absolutely punching up.
5314711
It is too damn early to deal with this right now, but here we are.
But yeah. Basically, by invoking the boogeyman of 'cancel culture,' you're basically saying "You know who REALLY has it bad? White guys who can't say slurs anymore! Even when it's REALLY FUNNY!" It's the sort of viewpoint that's either profoundly ignorant, or intentionally disingenuous. At best.
5314757
How nice of you to explain to me what I'm saying, I honestly never would have guessed.
Silly me assumed that by invoking cancel culture, I was basicly saying "You know who is the REAL threat? The people able and willing to hold hostage people's jobs, people's livelyhoods, people's creations, people's rights, just because they can. The roving mob with no home nor hearth, united only by the desire to take and destroy. Hiding behind flimsy moral pretexts and buzzwords, both ever changing but always loud and vague, using the current trend of political correctness and ongoing social activism to take their revenge upon the world."
As is common, I didn't understand the problem existing before. I'm not from US nor the western nations, the very worst threat to my life coming from social networks and online in general was... maybe a prison sentence for contradicting the government's political line. A conventional problem, with known conventional workarounds and solutions, not really an issue. Then suddenly I've witnessed the mob come for Derpibooru. Just because they could. Citing some asinine stuff like 'nazi infestation' and pointing fingers at some forgotten pictures numbering in double digits lifetime. Contacting the mainstream media to write articles and the service provider to force the takedowns. Rearing up gleefully to double down on and expand their demands should any steps be made towards them. The staff's response was poor at first, they also were caught by suprise; thankfully whoever survived and weathered the storm now seems to be ready to defend their creation and do the right thing. Never negotiate with the terrorists, you only encourage more acts of terror. Unless you have a gun to your head, and even then better think twice.
But ah, of course. How silly of me. You of all people would certainly know better what I intended instead.
UPD: The nazi clopfic you mentioned was a direct response of Derpibooru situation. People knew the attack was coming to other pony hubs; best to meet the enemy on your own terms. It was, evidently, a major success.
Pity you had to prevent me from talking when you yourself had nothing to say.
5315045
"Oh no! An angry mob! All I did was proudly jerk off to nazi fetish clopfic! TRULY I AM OPPRESSED."
Get fucked, dude. I'm done with you.
5312739
Yes. Some things are worth fighting for. That includes basic human rights for people I hate and who hate me. I will defend their right to say abhorrent things. That's not the same as the (non-existent) right to not be judged for saying those things, or to act on them. And of course the right to free speech only applies in the public sphere. Nobody has an inalienable right to post Nazi garbage on Twitter or Fimfic or wherever.
Democracy has failed if you can't jerk off to Nazi fetish porn. Or succeeded. Honestly. I don't even know anymore. I'm sort of sick of discussing it.
There seems to be three groups.
1. Actual, bona fide Nazis.
2. People who think Nazi imagery is funny.
3. Those who just like Nazi stuff for the aesthetics. (I'm a borderline Anarchist and I love royal symbols. Life's weird.)
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree.
At least this blog broke down what was wrong and didn't hatefully insult anyone. They just said "isnt a good look" and "bad joke". Honestly, I just want to defend peoples opinions. They have them because they were convinced of something through thought and experience. I'm just sick of the mutual disrespect between ideas.
Are some of those ideas a bit stupid? Even if so it doesn't mean you need to disrespect them, they will just hold on to the idea out of spite... whatever... it doesn't matter. You will all forget about this soon enough. I dont even know why I bothered to share my ideas on an old, dead blog anyway. Its just going to get downvoted because people will think im defending nazis...
Some think its just fiction, its not hurting anyone. And those that enjoy it will, and those that don't will just move on and forget.
Others think its absolutely disrespectful to those that died and needs to be gotten rid of.
Some think freedom is the most important thing, because if it is taken away we are all just sheep. And once one freedom is taken, the rest will follow.
Others think just because you have the freedom to do something, doesn't mean you "should". And when that "should" is violated, action must be taken against the offenders.
Some think that there is good and evil.
Others just try to understand why people do what they do and don't judge.
Some want to belive in people because of the people we know and love. And the amazing things some people do.
Others hate humanity as a whole and think we all, or at least most of us, need to burn.
Some people think the world is flat...
Others put their faith in science and the intelligence of humanity.
Some people think they KNOW the truth.
Others, like myself, think if we're wrong, we learn why and how. And then grow from it.
Some people think they are above making bad decisions or doing stupid things.
Others have had so many things go wrong they have stopped trying.
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This will be my only post here... im not smart enough to get my point across.
You said better what I have been trying to say. The problem is figuring out who is which. so we shouldn't go on witch hunts. Oh well.
Also, I feel you missed some people.
4. Those who want to merge MLP and human history, including/especially the bad for creative reasons.
5. Fans of equestria at war, and you can't deny that some like to play the villians.
6. People who want to push and test the limits of what is "acceptable" untill they hit the metaphorical speed limit/wall.
5317786
They have the right, its a privately owned site. But... idk... isnt it still censorship?
5314757
I'm sorry, but cancel culture does exist. BUT, just like fascism, its put on way too many things that it doesn't belong on.
Cancel culture is attacking or ruining someone's life because they said or did something you dont agree with, not just racist, but also political or ideological. Or something stupid, that sometimes, they didnt even mean or understand. SOMETIMES it even turns out that it was fake but TOO LATE, their life or job is already ruined.
I know racism is horible, but you cant CONTROL someone. You have to have a civilised conversation about why you think they are wrong. And if they STILL tell you to F off, then they aren't going to live a very good life with that attitude an you should just forget they exist. Because trust me, most people don't give a damn about the difference between ethnicities and cultures, they just live their life, as best they can, with the exception of the middle east... bit some of the stuff I hear about them...