It Ain't Over Till It's Over [actual leak spoilers!] · 2:19am Oct 9th, 2016
Damn. Damn. Not the most amazing episode, or even the most amazing finale (I'd rank it third overall), but a good episode, bordering on great.
BUG HORSE WIFE GOOD PLAN CHANGE AGHLLRBALGHAGHGH
There, that's it, that's my review.
Boy, I really did not know what to expect with this one. From the summary, I was anticipating Starlight gathering a ragtag band of what-have-yous to do a thing, and I was hoping that meant a new 'mane six' gleaned from the new characters introduced this season. But all we got was Thorax, who gets to complete his transformation into a special snowflake. <.< It's a minor quibble, but I was kinda hoping for more than just four main characters, three of whom have been in previous season(s). Granted, when I ask myself who else I would have included from season six, my mind starts and stops with Saffron Masala because A) waifu, and B) there's literally no reason for her to be involved. (But then, I just used the word 'quibble' and remembered Quibble Pants, but I'm sure they couldn't pay Patton Oswalt a second time.)
But no, this was great. Trixie was amazing for the entire thing. Her banter with Discord was almost the best thing about this episode, except then they had the "I was an evil leader once, too" speech with Starlight and Chryssy and I just... mm, nngh, I need it. Starlight's arc has finally paid off, I think, and if I never see her again, it'll be too soon, but at least this is a good bookend to the season along with Crystalling, vis-a-vis Glimbutt.
So yeah, if I had a criticism, it would be twofold. The surface complaint is just that the first arc of part one seemed like yet another case of Starlight freaking out because friends. I mean, this time it was obviously because leadership, but I even remarked aloud that she's a one-note character. That her note is social anxiety doesn't absolve her, but as I said, it turns out for the best by the end. (I hope to fuck she's at least mostly over her own running gag.)
The second goes a bit deeper, and that's how in fuck did the changelings capture the Princesses? It all happens off screen and, while I'm all for Chryssy finally having a good fucking plan for once (this is the sole reason I'd rate this episode over the original wedding), having it all happen offscreen is kind of less than satisfying? And it leaves me with questions.
There are probably more holes I could poke, but I'd rather enjoy this. Let her have her moment, she earned it, the little stinker. :3 I love how they managed to make her reintroduction even creepier than her initial first appearance. I mean, that original reveal was heart-stopping, the kind of thing you see and go, "Shit, this is for kids?" And now we have her Exorcist-ing all over some goo pods and I just spent an hour today writing up a custom Sentinels villain deck for her and now I have to change everything goddammit
Err, uh, peanut butter crackers! :V I live for shit like that. We need more movie references!
And yes, I was hard on Thorax, but I honestly couldn't fault his role in this episode. He more or less carries the adventure part all by himself, and his transformation at the end, while random, is horrifically tantalizing. (Also, I now understand why iisaw was in a frothing rage the other day.) The other changelings joining him seemed kind of abrupt, but honestly, we don't know their individual motivations (oh god, so many fanfic ideas are dead), and I can imagine they all saw him and were like, "Shit, I wanna be that!"
You know what they didn't fuck up? Chryssy not taking Starlight's hoof for a quick reformation. :D I saw that bitch reach out to her and I shouted, "DON'T DO IT, CHRYSSY!" And she didn't! :D And I was so proud. Thank fuck we can have at least one villain in this show.
Though I'm sure she'll be reformed eventually. :B But whatever. She was fucking adorable in this episode, I love her so much.
Also, did anyone else realize right around the time Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy showed up that they were changelings? Like, that was an awesome feeling, my friend and I got it right at the same time. :D
Huhhh, what else... Oh yeah, it was nice seeing the Village ponies again. I forgot how much I liked Double Diamond. :D (I need to finish that fucking shipfic.)
I'm sure I'll remember fifteen things I wanted to say as I'm trying to sleep tonight, but for now? A good episode, really good, battling for number two in my mental episode list for the season. Also, gonna be weird seeing what, two? more episodes after this. :B
A Hearth's Warming Tail
To Where and Back Again
Viva Las Pegasus
Gauntlet of Fire
Dungeons and Discords
No Second Prances
Spice Up Your Life
Stranger Than Fan Fiction
28 Pranks Later
The Fault in Our Cutie Marks
Buckball Season
P.P.O.V. (Pony Point of View)
The Times They Are a Changeling
Flutter Brutter
The Crystalling
Every Little Thing She Does
The Cart Before the Ponies
Applejack's "Day" Off
The Saddle Row Review
Where the Apple Lies
On Your Marks
The Gift of the Maud Pie
Newbie Dash
Luna's Future
Say Goodbye to the Holiday
Seeds of the Past
Hearth's Warming Eve Is Here Once Again
It's Gonna Work
Pinkie's Present
Derby Racers
A Changeling Can Change
Can I Do It on My Own
Find the Purpose in Your Life
Out on My Own
Princess Ember. Extra credit if she shows up because the changelings were trying to replace her too in a double-whammy coup, and she was able to stop them.
With you on Trixie, less so on Starlight's speech. Would be happy if she disappeared now (or went off with Trixie and only ever appeared again along with her?), as so much this season has been about trying to make us care about her, and in my case failing.
Why is she here? Why is everyone okay with everything she's done and does, and far more forgiving than with other people with more sympathetic motivations and less damage done?Yes, Starlight's thing was repetitive at the start, also yes, how did this work on the capture angle. I thought the magic nullification thing was dumb (especially in hitting Discord's), but necessary for anything to work. I did like that Luna played a decisive role in solving the problem.
100% with you on Chrysalis's staying a villain. Don't know how that will work, exactly, but I'm happy she's still evil and loving it. For all that it's led to a couple good episodes and some great spinoff material (like Bad Horse's "Corpse Bride" and Estee's Anchor Foal), I've still never come around to that call. Even in this episode, where his interaction with Trixie was delightful, the unrelenting focus on Fluttershy grates on me.
On the whole, I liked Thorax's part in all this, if not the ending transformation, and I do wish that there had been some dissension among the changelings, or at least a failure to transform as he did, since none of them had freely given love to direct back out again. Leave some room for development there. Also, way for Celestia to unilaterally install him as the leader of a foreign people.
I'll cop to not thinking changelings when seeing Rainbow and Fluttershy showed up: I was still thinking time shenanigans or mind/memory magic. But the fact that it was clear something was up puts a damper on the "Chryssie had a good plan" thing: the replacement was either lazy or incompetent, and not excusable given the way she was defeated by a random wild card in Season Two.
On the whole, I had this as pretty good, and probably would have it better if it had been Twilight (pre-S4) in her role, or one of the other Mane Six (even all of them). I'd personally rate the finales as:
Best Night Ever
Canterlot Wedding (the plan didn't bother me that much, and Ruining Pony Forever (R) had a lot to do with the way other episodes had been handled, not it itself)
S5
Where and Back Again
and hard to say between Twilight's Kingdom and MMC
Side note, it's kind of disappointing that all the best songs came from just one episode. Hopefully there'll be more in the movie/S7, but Hearth's Warming Tale was a treasure.
I've calmed down now. And I've realized that I was so angry because I really liked just about everything else in the two episodes up until the ass-pull magical defection of the entire hive. I loved Trixie, particularly when she pulled the smokebomb distraction with Thorax, and I want to have an animated gif of her silenced freak-out playing on my desktop forever.
Of course Chryssy tells Glimglam to piss off, and that was brilliant! But every one of her followers (who were shown to be nasty even to each other) suddenly deciding, "Yeah, screw Queen Cheeselegs, we want Mardi Gras suits, too!" not so much.
You might recall that a similar defection is a big part of TCC and sequels, so the concept certainly isn't what bothered me. It's that the happy pretty magic has wiped out the whole frikkin' changeling race, except for Creepy Mom. If they had even a small part of the hive follow her, this would be high in my top ten without any doubt. As it is... lower mid-grade. I might change my mind later, particularly if the bug-ponies turn out to be anything but forgotten/forgettable goody-goodies, but I still rage internally that the changelings are gone.
I only wish that Thorax wasn't such a snowflake and the transformation not so dramatic. I liked the old changeling design. It felt alien and interesting.
They could have split the hive at least to keep the changelings a threat, but no. Also, apparently drones can kidnap the most powerfully members of society without anyone noticing.
Way to go Royal Guard.
I liked 95% of this two parter. Trixie and Discord have amazing banter.
The 5% I don't care for? I absolutely hate. Namely that, yea, for this entire thing to work it requires robbing every other notable character of agency. Princesses? Mane 6? Spike? All kidnapped offscreen, by generic minions, because its required by the plot.
Discord? Totally neutered by a magic mcguffin that has a billion problems of its own. (Like that, you know, if the Changelings have antimagic that good, why not just, I dont know, bring the throne with them? Or raid like crazy since as soon as they get home good luck invading them back?
Starlight's own magic? See above.
This whole episode is written to allow Starlight to be a Mary Sue. Her 'conflict' is the 'Woe is me whatever will I do if I lead I might break something' but meanwhile its obvious to EVERYONE ELSE that she's competent at leading, everyone else is constantly looking to her to take charge, and so on - when, uh, why? Because yea, she's kinda right. Her one experience leading was a fucking disaster, why should anyone be trusting her here?
And, like, meanwhile, the alicorns we're expected to believe are so great and powerful are just rendered impotent. Celestia, who somehow kept Equestria safe and prosperous for 1,000 years, and now has her sister with her to back her up, is kidnapped without fuss and nobody notices or raises an alarm. And in and of itself? That'd be passable, but in the larger context of the series where she's been repeatedly defeated time and again?
How the hell did this mare not get defeated by like, an angry Diamond Dog within the first decade of Luna's banishment?
So yea. That? That leaves me feeling extremely sour.
I hope to never see Mary Sue McGlimmer again, either.
But the capturing the Princesses part was easy. Chryssi apparently had a giant rock that can negate literal forces of what passes for nature in Discord's magic lying around and never bothered with it before because reasons.
What I hated most:
Instant karma redemption for an entire species. Seriously, the other changeling mulled it over for maybe half a second before betraying Chrysalis for Deus Ex Thorax.
I honestly thought they could have fixed the ass pull with thorax telling the changelings that if they followed him, he could show them the way... they kneel, he fills them with his love or whatever... they get their silly transformation and bam.
That way the changelings got to choose their own leader, not have sunhorse dictate it to them.
I have too much Changeling headcanon. This episode is being disregarded. I don't care how much of my stuff that makes AU.
Actually, that applies to a lot of this season...
Seriously, I just started working on Legacy again.
4247424 I agree, the whole *let Chrysalis run away to plan revenge, after threatening Starlight* would have been more easy to believe if she had kept a few changelings to protect her
I liked it, with the exception of wishing they choose a slightly more restrained color palette for the end result.
I'd explain the near-instant about face for the entire hive based on the simple equation of "No permanent starvation? Let's give this a try."
Also, good job, Spike, you're not just the savior of only the Crystal Empire anymore. Befriended Spike -> entire friendly hive is a pretty impressive end result of him wanting to take a chance on an awkward friendly bug.
This may be terrible, but I laughed and laughed and laughed just now. It didn't even occur to me, but wow.
4247736
I'm glad my pain gives you joy.
4247736
If permanent starvation was that easy to fix, why has an entire race capable of pretending to be anyone not noticed? It's just bad, rushed writing.
The episode could have been a lot better if the other changelings stepped into stop Chysalis and revolted against her leadership, rather than undergoing a magical transformation.
On reflection, actually, it's worse.
The ending of the episode was actively anti-feminist. Strong female bughorse takes down all-female leadership of ponies so easily that we don't even bother showing it to the audience, loses all her followers and is defeated in seconds as soon as a inherently superior male comes along.
4247424 I'm pretty sure there are other changelings out there, and that Chrysalis will find them. (Maybe even produce more...) Also, what about Kevin?
It's good to see people being positive about this finale. It was by far the funniest, and, objectively, the only ass pull was the entire species changing at once. That was just unnecessary, and it really makes more sense otherwise considering Celestia assumes Thorax is the new leader.
So, Tirek is also up there, so is Best Night ever, if that counts... but so was s5 finale.
Yeah, there's a lot of narrative contrivance in this one, but it supports a very fun adventure. (I figure the changelings used small samples of the same material as Chrysalis's throne to neutralize the other princesses, though that does raise the question of why they'd never done that earlier. Maybe Chrysalis was marshaling her strength? Goodness knows that hers isn't the most efficient feeding strategy.)
And I love how, once again, Chrysalis was able to fly under the radar and surprise everyone with her appearance. (Well, up until people started posting reaction blogs and videos, anyway...) I'm not sure if Discovery Family would've kept it under wraps with promotional material as they did with "A Canterlot Wedding," but Tiny Pop airing it early actually kind of helped on a metafictional level.
Also, there's actually only one more episode left in the season now that "Where the Apple Lies" has aired. And Tiny Pop will be showing it tomorrow. Which means that by the end of tomorrow, I'll have made at least seventy cards over the course of four days.
Trust me, I feel your pain with the Chrysalis Sentinel deck.
4247419
4247424
Yeah, Chrysalis being left with at least some kind of army would have been nice. (Granted, it also would have given her no choice but to run off, so maybe it wouldn't have been so great, narratively.) I'm sure there's still changelings out there, but...
4247429
I think I've decided it just doesn't matter what I think of Thorax, he's gonna snowflake the fuck out of this bitch. :B Also, now we've gone from alien and interesting to alien and confusing. Fucking fairy moose...
4247784
Only Tumblr feminism is "girls win all the time". The writers gave enough of a damn about her character to have her be wrong and fail (and anyway, the 'superior male' wouldn't have even shown up had it not been for another strong female leader in the first place).
4247837
He was in the background! :V
4247970
PP : There's 'Chryssi is wrong and fails' which is how that plot point goes, and there's 'sudden deus ex machina via sole demonstrably male changeling the show has ever bothered to define'. It wouldn't be such a big deal if they hadn't had Chryssi somehow take down literally every major protagonist who isn't the writer's OC offscreen with no apparent effort, only to lose just as effortlessly.
I haven't thought about this, so it may fall at the first hurdle, but: what if the Flurry Heart we see in this finale is the only time we've seen the real one, and she'd already been replaced by a changeling the time of the premiere? I'm not sure how you'd get the super-powerful magic lasery stuff to work, but it would explain Flurry being so weird. :P
Well, there are a few more characters that could have come along, Gabbie, maybe even Gilda since RD is in trouble, Ember to help Spike and Twilight, but.. it's not a plot hole that they didn't show because the group we got really did not have time to gather a team, it was just who happened to be near each other at the time when Discord showed up, and took them all to the Hive, so they simply did not have the time to gather up a larger group.
As to "How?", stealth. They are changelings, it is almost impossible they did it through brute force, doubly so given they managed to replace them without anypony noticing (At least outside of the Crystal Empire really would like to know how Sunburst and Thorax figured it out so fast, though guess it could just be Thorax recognizing the trick more easily, or some changeling thing where they can detect other changelings even when disguised.) So, just pretend to be somepony they trust, maybe a maid or guard, and slip the Princesses a bit of late night tea with more tranquilizer then tea and make the switch. There are any number of ways it could have worked, and it's better not being shown, since if they DID show it, yeah you know people would find issues about it to complain about and poke holes in how it happened, this way, we can't say 'That wouldn't work" because we don't know what they did, instead leaving us free to picture a perfect plan that we would accept worked.
I have only two issues with the story. First, just how rushed the climax was, yeah a lot of it makes sense, but still way to rushed and not explained. Second, something no one else seems to notice or care about.... How in the bucking hell were the Sun and Moon supposed to move with the Sisters captured? I could come up with several ways it might work..... but would be nice to see that addressed.
That and... something about the ep just.. felt... not very 'finale-ish' to me, it was a great ep, but.. didn't feel like a great season finale, maybe the lack of a big musical capstone? Those always felt so good and so perfect an end point, just something about it didn't feel as big as the rest, which it should have.... still a great two-parter though.
And yes love Chryssi getting away, and... she might not 'reform' not every baddie does.. mostly just the ones who have reasons for acting like they do, ones who are just plain evil (Sombra, Tirak...) not so much. And Chryssi..... is down right fucking sadistic, yeah the reveal was creepy, but what REALLY drives home how bad she is, is the way she was brutally tossing Starlight around her throne room. Combine that with her ego and pride......
But yeah great overall ep, with some astounding character interaction. Oh and as to Starlight.. no she is far from 'one note' and has a rather good level of complexity to her, and everything about it makes sense. It's being incredibly reductionist and overly simplifying things.
4247419
Such as who? And because... have you been paying attention to the what show you are watching? Everything about it is laid on the foundation of acceptance, forgiveness, friendship, idealism, and Harmony. She is a rather amazing character with a lot of great stuff to her, complex, trying to reform and atone, but still failing to fully understand even what her issues are, so yeah do not get your issues there at all.
4247424 Well, nothing says it was EVERY changeling, there were still all the ones out impersonating others who didn't get to see Thorax's big speech, plus she is the Queen, she could just breed more minions. Yeah not having EVERYling present turn would have been better, but this isn't unsalvageable. And gotta admit, for all the issues I had with your version of friendship altering them... do prefer this take, not really altering who they are at the core, forcing them to give up parts of who and what they are...... aside from having to adjust to the neon eyesores that are their new carapaces.... Maybe they can just shapeshift out of them?
4247438 Let's see, first off, it's not 'Robbing them of agency" because this isn't their story. Oh no, they got taken by surprised by a race that specializes in deceit, stealth and trickery. Unless you can actually come up with why there is absolutely, no even plausible way this could happen, there is no issue. And having it 'off screen' is the major reason it works, because it leaves open 'how' and prevents giving one solid answer which would end up getting nitpicked to death. Same for the Throne thing, it's a non-specific, general approach that really works and makes a lot of sense. Note, it also removes Starlight's greatest attribute as well, making her unable to rely on the one thing she knows she's good at. AND having to force Discord to deal with things without just being able to force reality to his whims, it really was an amazingly well done idea. And also shows just how dedicated to Fluttershy Discord is that he'd go through that for her.
And no point is Starlight "A Mary Sue" You know, beyond the meaningless buzzword that term has devolved into as shorthand for "Character I don't like, but have to try and insult rather then just saying I don't like because I can't accept the issue is just with my own personal tastes, clearly it is with the character and I am blameless because I don't quite get "I do not like" =\= "This is bad""
Speaking of the throne, because 1. How massive was that thing? It really is not mobile. 2. Even if it WAS, again Stealth based, knocking out an entire towns magic isn't exactly stealthy and would send up a massive "Something is wrong" flare for miles. 3. Why they don't just do whatever they want... because it might block magic, but as iisaw's demonstrated..... that don't mean much if your foes want to drop a chunk of rock on you. From orbit. It does make a good defense but is far from perfect
4247460 See above re: both 'mary sue' and the throne non-issues.
4247755 Because noling has actually tried? Being far to self absorbed, egotistical, and predatory to ever even think of being 'friends' with anypony. Which in turn, makes a lot of sense given their role model is Chryssi. They've been indoctrinated by her from both to act a certain way that prevents them from really attempting that. Hell one way to look at it is it's possible Chryssi KNEW about this and was intentionally keeping it from the Swarm so she could maintain control and because she prefer vicious predators then the alternative.
4247837 What if 'Kevin" was Thorax? it would make sense.....
4248099 Doesn't work, as you said, would not explain the super magic, and given we have no idea how the Changeling take over in the Empire was found out by Thorax and Sunburst... it's possible Changelings can detect other disguised changelings.
Gotta love how we all constantly forget that the princesses were once kidnapped by non-sentient weeds.
Seriously, guys. Weeds. They were kidnapped by weeds, physically dragged from Canterlot to Everfree, without anyone being able to stop it.
Frankly, being kidnapped by changelings is a step up.
4247970
Good point about limiting her choice by giving her followers. But seriously, the only option she had at that point was to turn into a clown-moose or... yeah, I think she made the right choice. And, on a slight tangent, we now have more evidence about how royalty is chosen in Equestria. It isn't just the horn-wings combo, it's the size of the horns that matters, by all the evidence. Thorax is now to be addressed as Your Horniness.
4247837
Yep, there's the dozen or so that replaced the Mane 6 and other royals, and Chryssy can probably make more. And Kevin... nobody ever thinks about poor Kevin. I wonder how this will affect The Guardians of Harmony? Part of the line is about fighting changelings, not just Chryssy herself.
4248141 Except those weren't just 'weeds' they were creations of Discord.
4248225 Maybe the Guardians comic annual coming out is showing how they were captured in the first place? Or, well, it turns out not all Changelings turned, and/or Chryssi bred more that are more loyal, and this is them out for revenge.
4248286 And as we all know, everything Discord creates automatically has reasoning capabilities and an ability to think logically and strategically.
4248132
Because the Changelings up till now don't have a remote ounce of competent stealth or trickery shown, ever. The replaced mane 6 act like complete idiots. The drones are tricked both here and in the Wedding with simple parlor magic. Claiming the Changelings are somehow these oh so competent infiltrators is complete headcanon never once backed up in the show until they ask us to handwave the abductions as 'They totally pulled it off guys, really!'
Two, it is agency robbing because the entire point of including them is to make them the objects of a fetch quest. That's exactly what robbing of agency is.
Three, Mary Sue is hardly a meaningless term. Diluted by overuse, yes, but when you are contriving a bunch of reasons why every character in the entire show up to this point can't act and our New Friend has to save the day? That's exactly what the trope was invented for. I like Starlight; this episode is still a Sue showcase for her.
Fourth, way to resort to assuming it's 'whaaa i dont like it whaa'. I'd say 'Please be less of a jackass' but I'm well aware it's an incurable condition for you.
4248296 And this is required for.. what? They were something Discord created, during his final confrontation with the two, it only makes sense he'd have them programmed to go after them as soon as they finished dealing with the Tree. This wasn't the Plunder Vines planning or thinking anything, just following what they were created to do.
4248311 They won the first time, it was only Cadance and Shiny pulling off the love bomb that stopped them. And not like anypony figured it out on their own, even Starlight, she knew something was up, but was mostly just accepting it until outright told they were Changelings. The only ones who got caught were the ones in the Empire, and we're not sure how that happened, and if more then just Thorax and Sunburst realized/if it was just Thorax noticing because he is a changeling. Anthropic Principle, they clearly are able to do so, because they clearly did so. And them doing so is neither illogical, nor implausible given the known facts.
Second, alright I'll give you the agency thing, but it does not matter, as this was not their story, and everything about it does make logical sense.
Three, yes it has a dedicated meaning, but it is rarely actually used correctly, hence, being a meaningless term overall anymore sue to how over used it is in ways that are not applicable. Such as here, since not one thing about this is 'Mary Sue" every step makes logical sense, nothing is twisted around just for Starlight, this could have been any character just as well, she just happened to be in the right place and the right time to be the one that had to do it, nothing about her was 'special' and nothing cause the narrative to distort in illogical ways, there is nothing at all "mary sue" about this story, if any character might qualify it would by Thorax.
Four, oh gee, yes I'm the one that keeps making things personal rather then actually dealing with the facts and the actual issue at hand, how horrible to do that. Yes, yes it is such a jerkass thing to call people out on a position that does not make sense or is against the actual facts presented. No no going off on hyperbole filled rants is SO much better.....
The worst part for me is that even if chrysalis comes back, she's still completely pointless. We'll forever ask why thorax the tall and cancerous doesn't just swoop in and "share the love", whatever that bullshit means, to reform any other changeling she has?
And now that we know it's that easy, it makes chrysalis' continued resistance to fixing her "children" that much more sad and pathetic than threatening. Any plan she has will basically be as instantly fixed as this one was. If anything chrysalis is just woobie angst fodder more than ever.
4248352
Your 'facts' are fanon. You can so it makes sense to you. There's plenty of others doing just the opposite. That, by definition, is an opinion.
4248361 Versus the nonsensical hyperbole of "How she wasn't defeated by some random diamond dog" or just how many things flat out did not work in your whole post? Also again noting not actually dealing with the facts or logic presented, but just going for the ad hominum attack.
"I do not like" =\= "This is bad". Unless you can come up with a factually and logically sound way for why the narrative failed. All I'm doing is pointing out how it does fundamentally work, and is logically sound. Ye the ending was extremely rushed, but the underlying logic does mostly hold up and work.
4248370
We have seen 8 total Changelings infiltrating ever. Chrysalis - who Twilight knew was off, and who everyone else only wrote off because Bridezilla. 7 in Twilight's castle who were all hilariously inept and complete jerks. That's point one.
Point two - the Mane 6 are shown demolishing tons of Changelings in the Wedding. The only reason they lost was sheer weight of numbers.
Point three - Starlight & co manage to evade the entire hive for a ton of time, and then get away via stage magic and showmanship.
Point four - Chrysalis, again, loses because of her fatal need to gloat.
There is never a time shown of them being capable infiltrators onscreen. They clearly don't get the memories/personality of those they imitate, and the average Ling's power level is such that Rarity can take them down.
But, somehow, they execute a simultaneous strike against 4 national leaders and those closest to them that goes off with nobody noticing a single thing wrong, despite the fact the moment Starlight returns she notices things are wrong. They do this in a town everypony knows one another, and in two castles with constant guard rotations. They do this without Chrysalis, given that the Ponyville Changelings are reporting the status of Canterlot, so Celestia/Luna get taken by drones they should be able to lay waste to.
Where, precisely, is the evidence in here that the Changelings are somehow competent or powerful enough to pull this off, at all?
I don't care if you liked the episode. I don't care if they don't matter to you. But it's not a 'Oh, this is factually incorrect' argument and no amount of 'Look at me I'm so logical' is going to change that.
4248132
I still reckon there may be a way round this, at least with the looser restrictions we have in fanfic, even if not in the show itself. The magic seems the insuperable problem, but we don't really know a lot about how magically powerful Chrysalis is/was. Probably not that powerful, but still. Someone, somewhere, will write a fic with a similar premise at some point, and probably use some brilliant idea I haven't thought of.
4248401
Right in the episdoe, the fact they did so. Again Anthropic Principle. Oh plus we've seen that they pretty much take over Equestria in at least one timeline without the Mane 6.
Next as noted, none of it requires being 'powerful' just have a good plan. Slip Celestia a slice of cake filled with tranquilizers, disguise as a royal Guard and slip into Luna's room to hit her with a pony curare dart of some kind, lure them off somewhere a bit isolated before doing so, there are innumerable plausible ways it could be done, and unless you can find some way to negate every, single one till there is no plausible remaining way, then you cannot say it can't happen, because it clearly did, AND there are plausible ways it could have worked. This is the whole reason them being captured off screen works.
Were the changelings replacing them perfect? Oh hell no.. but they weren't enough to get caught until Luna tipped Starlight off. Could it have led to them eventually being found out? Sure. But as you noted, Chryssi managed to fool everypony but Twilight, and Twi was just because she went in with a chip on her shoulder, and even she never thought Cadance wasn't Cadance just that she'd turned into a massive bitch. Given just how many bizarre things ponies deal with on a near weekly basis... yeah they'd likely have time to either get better at the roles, or simply get ponies used to their new way of acting.
So that is points 1 and 2 down.
Point three. And having a changeling with them to lead them through the hive and help them figure out how to deal with things, and evade stuff. And they still all end up captured in the end anyway.
Point four.. not really this wasn't gloating, this was having to make a public, drawn out spectacle of punishing Thorax. Which make sense, she clearly rules through fear in large parts, or at least simply enjoys having that power. So publicly showing exactly what happens when you cross her, and making it drawn out, makes sense. And the 'gloating' again, makes even more sense now and is a consistent character flaw. Her massive ego and need to dominate, she wants her foes to know she is better then them, that she is in charge etc.... It's a flaw yes, but it's one that is logical and makes sense for her to have.
4248419 Even if they could replicate the issue of the magic... why would they? Why do something that would draw attention to them and make it more likely the foal would be looked at closely, examined, probed to try and find out why she was doing this and a way to stop it, thus making detection more likely.
4248420
All of which are never shown on screen. You are filling in blanks here. All onscreen appearances of the Changelings point to them being incompetent.
It's like someone goes 'Hey, Wolverine got killed at a shopping mall' to which people would rightly go 'Uhhh? What? How?' because you know, healing factor. 'They did it because they did it' is shitty justification.
4248473 Because in that event, yes it is highly implausible due to that, however, in this case, there are multiple plausible outcomes, the two situations are nothing alike. Also, once again, ignoring what was explicitly said.
I outright said there has to be plausible ways it could work. So, can you disprove every possible way this could ever come to pass in a plausible fashion? If not, then it is not an issue as it clearly could and did happen.
And seeing the Changelings being in control of Equestria and a threat was shown on screen by the way.
This is why the issue is a factual one, divorced from opinion, it is a fact it worked and they did this, and there has not yet been given facts to prove it should not have been possible. Meaning, it did happen and they are fully capable of doing so.
4248501
Okay, let me spell it out in very simple terms since you seem to have trouble understanding basic criticism of entertainment media:
I am not saying it is impossible for the Changelings to pull their plan off. I am saying the Changelings, as depicted in every instance except their sudden offscreen victory, do not show the competence, skillset, or powers that should be required to perform their heist successfully.
They didn't make the sale. That's it. 'It happened because it happened' is circular logic.
4248510 yes yes having to resort to personal insults SO proves you have a valid point that can stand on it's own.
No, they have not been shown to be to incompetent to pull this off, as while far from perfect, they have managed to take over a city, and Chryssi did go undetected for quite a long time, even when somepony finally caught on, it wasn't really catching on, just thinking Cadance was a massive bitch. Plus the theory of Chryssi deliberately acting off and overly bitchy around Twilight to try and provoke her, not saying it's true, but is plausible.
That is the key, plausibility. That they accomplished this being possible is a fact, because it was done. Once more, Anthropic Principle. And you have yet to factually show how them doing so is utterly implausible, rather then just continue on with hyperbole about how pathetic they are, and ignoring things proving this is not the case, like the already brought up Changelings Win timeline. As well as the innumerable ways this could have been accomplished.
You don't have to like it, but it is hard fact that they could do so, and that it is entirely plausible, unless you can prove it is not. We simply do not have enough hard data to make any firm statements about how they captured the ponies, causing the equation to have far to many variables and hence be unsolvable. But we do know the end result, and that is a provable fact.
4248421 I don't know. That's why I'm not the person writing a fic about it! But someone out there has an idea, and someone out there will probably write it.
4248531
Once again, I am not saying 'Impossible'. I am saying 'Many, many holes that do not gel with existing Changeling behavior'.
What, in canon, can you cite, specifically, that shows competent infiltration?
Something tells me this conversation is going nowhere. :B Stop being pedantic nerds, you fucking nerdy pedants! >:B
4248225
Coming soon from Present Perfect Productions©, it's "Chryssy the Cloose"!
4248946
You cannot possibly imagine the horrorshow that just trotted through my imagination!
4249177
If I can figure out how to write it in Seussian rhyme, it will happen. c.c
4249427
Oh, if you do, I will totally do some illos for it!
4249747
Shit, that means writing a thousand-word poem D:
I think this finale proved that I'll never be 100% happy with an episode. I've asked for years for the minor characters to finally get to do something important, for the villains to sometimes reject redemption, and for sometimes cleverness and planning to be more important than magic macguffin space lasers. This is a finale with all that, plus character development and quirky interactions, and I still can't help but sum up my feelings with a "meh."
Maybe it was the cast they chose. I've always been ambivalent-at-best to Trixie, Starlight, and post-reform Discord. Thorax was the odd one of the bunch, and he suffered for it. Instead of entertaining interactions and wit, he got to be the mandatory exposition-spewer and game-winning macguffin (wait, dammit, they STILL ended it with goddamn magic friendship lasers).
Despite my quiet glee for an actually gender-balanced cast, I would have been much more interested in, say, the Cakes, Apples, and Crystal Royals coming together to save the day. People we see, like, and don’t see nearly enough. Or all the magic-less princesses trying to navigate the changeling castle and win… that would’ve been awesome.
Instead we got:
Seriously. Again and again the show awkwardly shoves the princesses to the side so the mains can save the day, and each time it got more forced and convoluted until the writers seemed to have just gone “fuck it.” Cadence, Celestia, the ironically-named Shining Armor… the writers turned a one-shot Thorax into Bug Jesus, but turned the long-standing adult characters into fucking footnotes.
It was so fucking painful. Nobody noticed that the goddamn sun wasn’t moving?
…It was? There was a day-night transition? Well HOW THE FUCK WAS THAT HAPPENING? The show plays fast and loose with continuity all the time, but “Celestia controls the sun, Luna controls the moon” is like the third fucking line in the series.
I know these are minor nitpicks, but they’re piled on years of dissatisfaction. Strangely, this was one of my favorite season enders – the compliments listed above hold firm. The thing is, that’s not saying very much.
High points for me:
-Discord’s delightfully meta shut-down of Changeling Fluttershy. He forgot his meta wit like fifteen seconds later, but it was nice while it lasted.
-Chrysalis slapping away the hoof of friendship. We all knew where it was going, we all knew there would now be like a Butterfly Princess Chrysalis popping up on store shelves… NOPE!
One wonders what she can accomplish without her changelings, but a baddie like that will find a way.
4250120
Reading this comment, I realize that kidnapping the Princesses wasn't even necessary. Twilight and the rest of the mane six (and Spike) were kidnapped: this is who Starlight cares about! Upping the ante with the Princesses was unneeded. You just have a "There's no time to go to the Princesses/what if they're changelings too" diversion to keep them from going immediately to Canterlot (even better if Discord says so, then snap-warps them to the Badlands), maybe someone figures out how to send word, and it takes until after the day is saved for them to show up with an army for what immediately becomes a diplomatic situation instead of a war. And pretty much nothing else would have to change!
4250409
The show has a really bad habit of using the Worf effect on the princesses, and Celestia especially.
And I'm digging deep into cynicism here, but initial compliments on using original characters are now tempered with the question of just how things were actually different with Starlight. Or rather, what did Starlight do that Twilight wouldn't, or hadn't in previous finales? Sure it was Discord and Trixie instead of Applejack and Fluttershy, but the overall formula was unchanged:
-Purple unicorn doubts self.
-Crisis! Princesses defeated!
-Purple unicorn does things with friends.
-Friendship and/or Love lasers save the day!
-Purple unicorn learns to believe in herself until the next season's opener.
I've noted before that my criticism of Starlight has become somewhat muted by the opinion that she's a better-done version of S1 Twilight: a genius of spellcasting and idiot of basic interaction skills. She's muscled into Twilight's turf by leading the season finale... and gives us basically the exact same story Twilight would.
4250507
Yeah. I mean, this episode still doesn't make me like Starlight. I still think we could have done without her being reformed/joining the main cast (for those handful of episodes where the writers could be arsed to use her).