Why People Don't Deserve Pony Land · 1:06am May 21st, 2016
Hyperbole aside, the differences between modern day man thinking and how ponies see things is vast and terrifying at times. The number of times I've written a pony doing something wrong where commenters cry for imprisonment, banishment, immediate dismissal, or outright violence, death not outside the scope, is amazing.
Ponies don't think this way, at least according to the canon we've been given so far. They can and do grow wary of those shown to be disharmonious, but the idea of harshly punishing the same people is largely foreign, especially if the pony in question is taken to task for their wrong-doing.
Trixie was whispered behind her back, but nobody was rushing to have her chased out of town.
Starlight was forgiven by the same people she had manipulated and brainwashed.
Even Zecora forgave and set down untold weeks/months/years of being cold dismissed by Ponyville.
Discord, the only bad guy that literally succeeded, was given a chance, even after he betrayed everyone. At their worst, they were nervous and ready for him to revert back to evil-doing, but they didn't assault him.
* Twilight almost did. Reforming spell? Really? The implications!
To summarize, them ponies don't think like we do. It's part of what makes them special. It's probably just as well humans don't intrude on their gentle world. We'd almost certainly make it worse.
THANK YOU!
Yes, I do not get how so many people just do not get this fact about Equestria!
Eh, I think part of it though is that ponies are at near pushover levels of forgiveness. Rainbow Dash is about the only one with a real level of reactions to others that cause problems, though some of the things they have her doing in the show are a tad overboard in all ways. At least with Applejack when she distrusts someone there is usually a good reason with her ability to detect dishonesty.
I'm still not sure about Starlight right now as she has way too much of a Mary Sue vibe. Her inclusion has been at the detriment of all the others so far and frankly she has been poorly handled.
3960028 Applejack also distrusted Zecora, and heckled Trixie the first time for the high crime of being an entertainer that boasted... on her own stage, during her own performance.
Applejack is not above sin.
knowing us humans, if we where to have actress to equestria itself, we would corrupt it either way.
I'd like to see a place of endless second chances and magic. I've turned the other cheek on several occasions and only been further bruised and scarred. I don't like the idea of irredeemable, but I know among this world that is the case. I like to think Equestria has higher standards especially with a destiny branded upon ones very flesh.
Yes, This. And I despair of us ever being even remotely as good as Ponies are.
It's subtle, but I was amused by your comment at the end:
And thus you fall into the same error that the folks you're objecting to have: you dismiss humanity as irredeemable. :)
I like to imagine that just as they've done with Discord, ponies would forgive humanity for our failings and would encourage us to be better than our track record to date has shown us. Ponies aren't weak, and as a whole I'm sure they're not naiive - especially not Celestia or Luna, who have more personal experience than any living human a hundred times over. I think they could handle contact with humanity.
In fact, it's canon that they can. Twilight came to our world (or one very like it) with no preparation and in a matter of days, despite active opposition by someone with far more experience at manipulating humans, she became the most popular student at a high school and completely turned around the negative social climate there. I wouldn't be half surprised if Celestia could pull off a feat like that at the United Nations someday - it's basically the same thing when you get right down to it.
These are mighty deep thoughts that I completely support.
To place this topic in my own words and perspective. Our world and Equestria are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. If our two worlds were to meet one of two things would happen. Either we corrupt them into a clone of our civilization or they corrupt us with their ways of peace and harmony.
This is one reason why I love this fandom so much, is because we often enjoy bringing up and writing about real deep moral problems and dilemmas of any and all kinds.
3960059 To err is human. I would ask forgiveness of my furry neighbor and bake some cookies in apology if given a chance.
I think its something like because the average person really wants the ponies to think talk and act the way they want them to. The Power, just like everyone else.
Personally, I just trundle along, and dumb out.
Someone has to be Really offensive to be acknowledged by intelligence. That takes energy. Energy is Power. The less Power I give Them, the more I have.
Make freinds with Maud and Big Mac. they dont ask much of you. And accept Pinkie will make freinds with you, as she will keep the others happy, and you dont annoy someone who has Author class power.
I had someone comment on a story involving humans and a high degree of violence. This story was entirely about the worry that humans would mess up first contact/fear that you can't get rid of mankind's violent nature.
And he was very happy about the fatal ends. Very satisfied. The lack of doubt there I remember bothered me. He was proving me right.
Considering the number of stories where disaster follows soon after a human's arrival...yeah. The best thing we can do is admire from a distance.
My theory is that it pro'lly has something to do with the fact that the people who conceived the series and the toy line are human. And, as a result, they tend to hire human writers like Meriwether 'emotional blackmail, hegemony, and oppression are acceptable methods of social control' Williams.
3960059 Don't mistake EG Humans for Earth Humans ... there are both physiological differences (most notably the technicolor hair and skin tones), and psychological ones, (EG Humans seem a lot gentler, more forgiving, and less xenophobic. Whether the latter is due to subtle differences in brain anatomy, to purely cultural differences, or some combination thereof is unclear, but they're clearly not Terrans.
3960083 That kind of bothers me too ... I mean, I don't exactly have high expectations for humanity due to reasons I don't feel like going over right now, but rooting for us to be evil just rubs me the wrong way. I'd much rather read stories about Ponies helping us grow.
but not all humans are bad ya know.
I think you are wrong, there will always bee roten apples. You dont need to look far into the cannon version to see that ponis faced with our problems would bee in the same situation we are now.
Look hove they were before celestia and luna, before they all joined forces. IT was not i cute worldwiev.
Ponis have 3 things that have given them à heads-up. Stable leadership, free energi and the intervention of higher powers, Giving them from our point of view à very naive outlook on life.
The problem like always is that the individual is smart, but the mob is stupid. 1 wrong Word from celestia or luna and it all goes sideways.
3960189 I never claimed they were. I am one, you know.
3960059 When I come home from work at night I can only stomach a half hour of news on telly(have to keep up with events) with hatred, violence and backstabbing the world around, mostly religion or race fed, before I have to switch it off & go on fimfiction to read a few chapters of the 20+ stories I'm following to get myself out of the funk the news has got me in to try and redeem the day.
Can't see Tia addressing U.N. without some nut-job radical claiming her a heretic, blasphemer and/or infidel and trying to blow the place up.
3960195 sorry it's just your post made it sound like it.
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Honestly, I feel most people are decent. Just the worst of us are the loudest.
Humans and ponies? I would hope they would bring out the best in us. Really, they have the solution to many of the problems that ultimately make the world crappy in places, free energy, better harvests, weather control, etc...
From even a pessimistic optimist view I have to believe anyone with a lick of sense (tough call I know) in the world's governments could see there own self interests as being best served by having everyone on their best behavior.
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Echo that.
I always end up shaking my head when I see all the cries for this character or that to get some sort of extreme punishment. Have none of these folks actually watched the show, or do they head cannon it so thoroughly that the underlying message never quite reaches home?
Which is why the first thing I would tell Celestia if I ended up in Equestria would be: "You don't want me here."
3960426 I would try my best. it's all I can do. I would try to be a good neighbor and fail in hilarious ways and try to laugh at it.
3960433 I think I know myself well enough to say that I am, in fact, a horrible person.
If I couldn't be sent home, I'd probably request preemptive incarceration before I punch some poor pony in the face after losing my temper.
3960273 The majority of us at least try to be decent. Don't always succeed, but we try. That said, there is a rather prominent minority of ... well, to put it bluntly, assholes. If Princess Celestia showed up, most people would be on their best behavior around her, but there's a sizable minority who'd go out of their way to be shitheads, because that's what they do to anyone who isn't a part of their narrow worldview and/or subculture, along with a wider group who'd panic around anything new and scary.
This sentiment really irritates me, the reason pony land is so flowery and happy is because it was constructed to be that way. Equestria has no real history, ponies haven't been exposed to truly harrowing events and circumstances that break a sapient mind, and since such does not exist ponies can always assume that the one they are forgiving is similar enough in mindset for it to not be wasted.
in our world, there is a condition called sociopathy. it's cause is unknown but its probably a birth defect. sociopaths have few normal human feelings and are essentially completely without empathy, treating others like pawns at best. sociopaths are usually capable of projecting a charming facade and use it to deceive others for personal success. things like that are probably what the reform spell is actually for, which sums up the big problem here, PONIES CAN EASILY SOLVE THINGS THAT ARE INTRINSIC PROBLEMS FOR US. they have a flowery world where they can solve all their damn problems somehow and circumstances have positioned them such that they can afford to always forgive because they never have to deal with anything that you cant, they have never known true terror and do not bear the scars as such.
comparing ponies to humans is like comparing a pampered family dog to a constantly beaten feral hound and proclaiming the hound to be an inferior beast that should be more like the dog.
the hound did what it had to because that was what it was given, it survived as well as it could and would have loved to have been the family pet, but that was not what it got. it now bears the scars of its treatment and will always have that edge, that defensiveness, that prevents it from truly trusting. just because the dog looks better and acts nicer is not because it is intrinsically better. if the situation was reversed the dog would have either died or became like the hound and the hound would have been just as fluffy and friendly as the dog.
the problem isn't that humans are evil, the problem is that the world ponies live in isn't real, and isn't capable of existing in its state for long without an active and benevolent god setting it up so that their problems can be relatively easily solved.
Okay, I think you know my barbs involving the pony justice system are largely made in bemused jest, but if you didn't, I will proclaim bemused jest. BEMUSED JEST DAMMIT!
Well, David Silver. It doesn't make those people any more wrong. Or right.
Infact...The only reason ponies are able to function as well as they do is because it's their -ideal world-. A utopia. It wouldn't work anywhere else.
Sometimes, punishments do need to be applied. Regardless of severity. Death is a punishment, but one that is short and brief. What can lead towards it, however, can be quite horrendous and prolonged. What follows for others, however, can be quite devestating.
I'd prefer a swift death over torture, most certainly though, for myself if I ever do something deserving of it.
See, going back to punishments...I seriously wonder whether or not Discord was conscious while he was in stone...And then Nightmare Moon's punishment, yeesh...
That's just two of -canon- punishments that have been handed out. 1000 years is a lot of time for anyone to be driven mad and be tortured heavily on the side of Nightmare Moon's things.
That's also forgetting Chrysalis' and her changelings' banishment...Barrier sending them flying away. To what end? Unsure whether or not they impacted the ground and effectively died on impact, or if something else happened to save them, canon-wise.
Sombra...Blasted apart. Not as horrendous, but still something to think about. Seemed quite painful.
Tirek...Imprisoned in Tartarus. Yeaaah...Completely understandable, yet I can completely understand why he'd be so hellbent on stealing magic after being imprisoned in what amounts to the 'Underworld' or 'Hell'.
David, personally...I'd say you should also think of why Ponies don't deserve human land, if you've not considered it. It's only natural when someone's done something wrong, but certain things even the -ponies- you seem to hold in such high regard do...Tend to be rather questionable. Just on punishments alone.
Outside of those punishments...There are some other unnerving things that I don't think I need to mention, outside of the reforming spell that essentially equals brainwashing in many theories.
Equestria is an 'ideal' world where 'no punishments with certain exagerated exceptions' might work...But that's all it is. Both in the bad and good.
Both sides would be a horrible fit to one another. And I think the humans (That are capable of empathy) would be, quite often, horrified at the ridiculous extents Equestrians go through to cause certain punishments or even how casually they wield their great powers with such a lack of responsibility. It would inspire a great deal of fear, really...Which makes me wonder if the reason that Equestria is so peaceful is because of fear rather than benevolence.
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Sorry to you all for my rant, but this post is one of the few things that triggered my philosophical shenanigans. >.>
Plus eh, to me, this is an interesting topic.
Good day to you all. *Hat-tip*
PS: Just realized e520 more or less says the same as I do. >.> Welp.
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3960696 Your big rant kind of boils down to: The absolute worst were imprisoned. One guy appears to have been destroyed, but that wasn't even the goal, it just kinda happened. The ponies did not point at him and say 'Yep, we're killing you.'
Of those imprisoned, 0 were driven any madder than they were at the start, 100% reformed when released and re-entered polite society.
I'm not sure what you're arguing for, ultimately. My complaint is entirely at people that escalate and call for blood any time a character acts poorly in a story, when other options are available, but screw 'em! We need justice, now!
This is not any one story this happens in, mind. We had one where Mayor Mare led a mob of ponies against Twilight Sparkle to detain her and secure a 'siren' she had as a guest.
The calls for anything from immediate dismissal to death were loud and instant. As it turned out, Mayor Mare was being mind controlled. Any of those punishments would have been unjust.
This is a great point, ponies are just more open to forgiveness than humans as a cultural predisposition. The flip side of that is the reformation potion, I suspect ponies don't value "Free will" to the extent we humans do, so if a pony is bad, they should be forgiven, if they keep being bad, maybe a little mind control is the only way to solve the problem. But at no point do we harshly judge the bad pony, we just "Adjust" them a little.
3961371 I'm pretty sure it was a spell, not a potion, and we don't know how it worked (beyond Twilight thinking that it was likely to be effective on Discord), but yeah. The fact that such an option was strongly considered does show the strong collectivist streak within Equestrian culture, doubly so when combined with episodes like "Mysterious Mare-Do-Well". That said, it was Discord that they planned to use mind control on, and nopony seemed to even advocate using it on the likes of Diamond Tiara, so they're not as big about painting smiles on your soul as some people seem to think.
3960944 blood should not be called for but something should happen, this being said, discord actually did nothing wrong but be a pain in the but, we have not sean a good or real villan yet, who cares is trixy whispers, if its assault than it is assault. in pony land, if i pulled a knife on you, would i be imprisoned? probably, in the new chapter something should happen because of the love or level of violence that is happening, that Pegasus chick was a minor offence and one that was forgiven but if he did not care than she could have gone to jail.
3961612 You're absolutely right. It was a spell, not a potion. And I don't think anyone would propose using it on Diamond Tiara (or her mother), I think reformation spells, if they are common enough to be in small-town libraries, are still only cast on serious criminals (the Flim Flam Brothers are probably skirting the line, but have not yet crossed it). Ponies would cast reformation spells at the point where humans would ship our fellows off to prison. And to ponies, taking someone away from their family and community for a long period of time, and preventing them from using their special talent by imprisoning them, sounds as monstrous as mind control sounds to us.
An interesting if misanthropic sounding post.
If true reformation can be achieved than I agree that it is ideal as compared to incarceration or worse. It is always better to have more paying taxes than being paid for by taxes. I think the ponies have a number of unfair advantages though. 1 They can apparently know if someone is truly repentant and is not just going through the motions. Recidivism is a serious human problem. 2. Personal and Property damages can apparently always be handled with the apparently near infinite royal treasury(which actually makes sense as Celestia could make some very good long term investments and own the rights for many private enterprises). We have finite resources and as such demand to be compensated for our losses either in money or in punishment. Punishment aims to achieve two goals restitution for the aggrieved party and to act as a deterrent for others to commit a crime due to the fear of punishment. 3. (For the sake of argument) a truly benign ageless leader. Celestia appears to truly put the good of all ponies ahead of herself and outside of a violent end she is not going anywhere anytime soon. Humans for now have finite lives due to aging and even the best of our leaders are rarely the good of all first. Even good people have some greed and even worse will do something to help their close friends in ways they would not help others. That is just human nature. Survival of the fittest after all. Darwin's principles can be applied to society too. However, I do not think that ponies are flawless or that their society is a utopia. 1 Having extra personal abilities is not a good justification for a leadership role (Do you think we should limit our leaders to former Olympic athletes who have an agrarian background and have an IQ of 160+? Not a perfect analogy but I think the idea is clear ). 2 Having a system of true aristocracy is really bad. What about having the right parents makes a pony better than other ponies? Titles lead to corruption and abuse not to mention dirty politics. Celestia herself is really the only thing that makes this system plausible as she is almost divine on a mental level at least. To err is human to forgive divine, as they say. Overall though this is an apples to oranges comparison as the development of our societies were very different. I agree with many that we do have many problems but compared to past history we are least improving as a species. Yes people can be jerks, but their are plenty of ponies who are jerks as well in the show. The humans equals bad and ponies equals good thing is far to general and greatly oversimplifies a complex concept.
3962846 None of those have to do with bloodthirsty commentators eager to see naughty ponies punished swiftly and savagely.
3962770 Yeah ... you're probably right ... I was actually having a bit of a hard time thinking of an actual repeat criminal on the show who wasn't reformed through other means. And I'd also recently re-read Who Are You, And What Have You Done With Diamond Tiara?, where a reform spell is actually used on DT (the mildest version, of a type that operates more on operant conditioning than on direct mind control) after something that could easily land her in a LOT more trouble in our world, and was unrepentant about it. That said, I honestly do wonder if using a bit of precision mind magic on someone who's hurting others might be preferable to locking them up in jail ... I can definitely see both sides of that one.
3963004 So, are you then condemning humanity as a whole due to some that think that human style justice needs to be given out to some clearly guilty ponies? Is it really better to teach human, children who watch the show, that no matter what you do, that if you say your are sorry, that all is forgiven, no matter what?
3963484 It's a cultural values thing. I really like the idea personally, because it's a way of showing that ponies are fundamentally a unique culture shaped by their world, and not just "humans in fur suits."
3964588 Very much agreed. I'm very much a fan of stories that show their alien-ness.
3964960 And I like writing them, so that works.
3965219 Thank you for that, along with everyone else who is.
3965219 Synergy!
Ponies represent a friendly and almost ideal scenario of what we could be while remaining realistic.
They teach by example.
Humans concept of justice varies from culture to culture and from person to person it's hardly fair to blame each person individualy for not understanding there is a better way when you consider that.
Let's hope humanity will learn someday.
And if we ever get in any position to actively help the process make sure we do so.
~Leonzilla
3983407 Well said.
I'm sad now.
3983513 If you're sad, you probably aren't the people I refer to.