All you guys who actually wear armour and beat eachother up, please read. · 1:23pm Jul 16th, 2015
Alright so I just discovered this was, in fact, actually a thing.
And I know a disturbing percentage of my readerbase for Bad Mondays actually engages in this sort of thing, (as well as a surprising number of military bronies from various militaries from America to Sweden, but thats another discovery for another time).
I am not so much up for the roleplaying of LARPing but actually putting on honest to God heavy armour and whacking other guys sounds right up my alley. I had always thought this sort of thing only ever happened in close knit groups of friends or the occasional person on his own with alot of enthusiasm and disposable income, I had no idea this sort of thing was actually organized on such a scale (though I was aware of a few professional schools dedicated to teaching authentic medieval weapon and armour use and tactics).
I also discovered the SCA branch for Dublin (apparantly it doesn't include the rest of Ireland, I'm still figuring this shit out) is holding an event this September (another branch was holding an Archery event here in Northern Ireland last week but I am no archer).
Now needless to say, I regret not finding out this was a thing years ago I could actually pack my car and drive to, you'd think in all the background research I did for BM, I'd trip across it but no, not once.
So basically what I am asking of you guys is this: What do?
- I have no experience in any of this noise
- Heaviest thing I swung on a regular basis was a pick axe, a sledge hammer and a rebar with some concrete at the end (long story)
- How does armour? Where go?
- Is there more stuff like this? What the hell have I been missing?
3242725 Nonsense. We're all Wizard class here.
3242738 See? Proof I am not a wizard! Hans hasn't burned me yet!
3242738
3242740
"i cast magic missile"
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Now, what do:
- Learn to hack, slash and flail like a pro.
- Looks like you already got the flailing part down, so use a warhammer.
- The Knight Shop and Medieval Arms, UK are good "local" places.
- Yes, there is. You've been missing out on a lot.
3242768
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3242781 Which part?
3242792 The part where there's more stuff than just the SCA
3242794 There's HEMA, the Historical European Martial Arts, who basically are SCA, except we go for as-historically-accurate-as-possible-barring-dismemberment-and-death-of-participants mock wars with real weaponry. Of course, with HEMA, you'd have to work work work to get enough people together for that sort of thing, so most just stick around the SCA events.
There's also AEMMA, Academy of European Medieval Martial Arts, which is similar, but more scholarly than HEMA. After that is MEMAG, the Medieval European Martial Arts Guild, but I'd try and stay from those guys, as they're more Knightfags with a doctorate in Medieval Histories, IMHO.
As a bit of an offshoot to HEMA, there's MARE, which is Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, which is slightly more flashy, but lower impact. They're also good guys, and are more active than HEMA when it comes to organizing events.
Aaannd that's about it, besides a shit ton of smaller shit that I won't go into for time's sake.
Let them feel the steel of your mighty sword Handyman
3242812 ... God damnit Shocks.
Welcome to the club my dear.
First thing is, take it slow. You dont want to rush into the scene head over heels with an expensive as f**** equibment just to find out "Hey, this is not my cup of tea after all." Best is if you would knew someone to introduce you to all of it.
Sounds good for starters, the rest will come to you with sore muscles and bruises. Lots `n lots of bruises.
I can actually approve of swords-and-more.com for your medival needs. They have pretty sweet weapons ranging from a simple dagger (never leave the tent without one, theres scroundrels around every corner) to absolutley mouthwatering greatswords and also you can get some armor there too, ranging from simple chainmail to plate armor. Should you get some armor, wear it a few times at home in order to get used to it. Even a simple chainmail shirt can take the wind out of you quickly if you are not used to it. Same goes for your weapon of choice. Grab it, go into your garden or any free space available were you cant damage more than yourself and swing it a bit.
You have been missing everything! EVERYTHING!
i.imgur.com/24ymK74.jpg 3242813
3242832 Oh you laugh now, but I'll get you for this one of these days, Shocks,
One of these days, I'll get you.
I've really got only one bit of advice for you, just to keep the whole thing in perspective. When someone tries to tell you anything about swordfighting and how to write your fight scenes? Tell them to shove it, because they are talking out of their ass so hard you ought to be able to smell them. No person alive knows how to fight anything whatsoever with a sword or really any of the D&D sourcebook style "melee" weapons, because nobody has actually used them to fight anything or anyone in centuries. They were anachronistic relics even when armies still habitually issued them as regular equipment.
The closest thing we've got today are western and eastern fencing , which are stylized sports first and foremost and good for nothing else, as well a few scattered historical anecdotes and manuals. Those teach you about how they were actually used to fight in the same sense that reading Karate for Dummies makes you a black belt - and in the sense that having a black belt makes you anything at all like a seasoned career soldier from the middle ages.
Same goes for knife fighting specifically, by the way, but double, because nobody ever used knives to fight, even when swinging pointy bits of metal around was still all the rage. Knives are for killing, which is why what little training modern militaries give in it focuses on doing so with a minimum amount of fuss to an opponent who is either unarmed or in some other way unable to use an actual weapon. Incidentally, all of those "knife fighting" courses you can find every so often in your local McDojo are giant scams. You might get the occasional idiot trying to teach you "correct" techniques every so often anyway, based on the popularity of those things.
3242880 That's all well and good but I am more interested in spears and hammers than either of those things.
3242888
Same thing applies except more so, because nobody has even bothered keeping those alive as a sport. Lack of romantic sentiment, I guess. Your best shot would probably be to try hitting up the hunting crowd, because some people still use spears for boar hunting, out of tradition and as a challenge.
I'm not actually sure Handy's hammer matches anything that ever actually existed historically, though, because those were specialized niche anti-armor weapons and pretty much used only for that. The way you write it, he's really pretty much just swinging around a bug-flavoured sledgehammer, which is not how actual war hammers worked but really perfectly fine for any kind of adventure story that doesn't want to pretend to be historical fiction.
3242903 Nah, I know Handy's weapon is unrealistic, its specifically noted in-universe as more of a showpiece weapon than an actual warhammer. Considering, y'know, he nick'd that shit off of a statue. He's lucky it actually holds together well enough to function as a sledge hammer if anything.
Handy gets away with it because of his reputation more than anything. Are you going to question why the tall, metal bound monstrosity has a silly weapon after all the shit you've heard about him?
As for the rest, you're giving fencing a bad rap since that actually was kept alive right up to the twentieth century in military traditions (especially officer training for like, 90% of Europe's military up until the 30s, I know the US has some schools) since officers were actually expected to be capable of using them so they aren't a totally useless hunk of metal at their sides. Cavalry regiments still practiced swordplay as warfare up until the early twentieth as well, most people forget that they still wore cuirasses for most of the nineteenth century, and surprisingly cavalry didn't see its death in WWI, it was still used for some decades after it, albeit more in support roles than tactical flanking maneuvers they were intended for. True, the artform is nothing like that of the heavier martial arts these groups purport to practice but fencing and saber play actually has a continuous tradition unlike those other arts that continues to this day.
As for spear, yeah I guess going with the hunting crowd would be a good means to practice spear play.
3242919
I think the Japanese in specific learned rather painfully that this doesn't actually work all that well in practice (but not before wasting millions in steel and manufacturing costs that could have actually aided the war effort equipping all their officers with mass-manufactured cheapo-katanas.) The last great use of melee weapons in an actual war that I can think of would actually be WW1 as well, but in the trenches, not the (ludicrously obsolete and mostly ceremonial) cavalry.
Using a trench spike in cramped quarters like those was often the legitimately better option, compared to the rather long and unwieldy rifles of that period. They make up a rather surprising number of kills recorded, for a war that had actual machine guns. The one in the picture is actually a perfect example of a purpose-built close combat weapon for that kind of conflict that's actually functional: no cutting edge whatsoever, but all kinds of solid and pointy, for stabbing through steel helmets and body armor both. Built-in brass knuckles, too. Best thing the US military ever designed.
I was in the SCA a long long time ago. It was fun and exciting, for a 10 year old. I'm sure it would be interesting as an adult as well, when you're old enough to take part in everything.
I'd say go for it, Handy.
3242749 Come on man. A wizard doesn't just go into battle like that! Cast Mage Armor, Stoneskin, Protection from Elements, Sphere of Invulnerability, Flight, The +4 stat family, deathblock, and a shirt that continuously casts Heal, and Restoration, and Remove curse, and remove poison. You can do it all at once by casting Timestop. Then once you're done you can use Meteor Swarm, Maximized Cone of Cold, or, if you want to be sporting cast Bone Fiddle, use their ribs for music. You could also Disintegrate them or use Finger of Death, or Energy Drain.
Aw geez, another discussion of armour?!
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But of course. Only good things for Good Ireland.
3242812 A man/woman after my own heart, tormenting Handyman like this.
3243195 Screw all that. As a professional wizard I forget all my spells. My staff does all the magic:
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Joust me baby and we'll find out who the real wizard is.
Oh, you're from Ireland too? Nice. You don't see a lot of Irish on this site
Ok, while I do have training in historical martial arts, it is through a small group which is conveniently located across the Atlantic Ocean from you and I focus exclusively on the martial arts side without worrying about events or reenactment so I really cannot give you detailed advice on groups that is relevant to you. That said, I have heard that the SCA is more of a reenactment group than a martial arts resurrection group so it may not be what you are looking for because I get the impression you are more interested in learning the proper techniques than pretending to be someone who lived several centuries ago.
If you really want to learn the weapons, you should be looking for groups that do a lot of talking about the various masters and techniques on their website with less focus on things like historical costumes. Ideally, what you will see when you walk in is people training in normal clothes with metal or wooden weapons and/or doing controlled one-on-one bouts with metal or padded foam swords and protective gear cobbled together from a odd mishmash of sports. Aluminum practice swords are also a great sign that you are in the right place because they are generally favored by these groups for use as low cost training weapons that will feel almost exactly like steel in combat while having a broader edge to reduce injuries. My personal bouting equipment is a cheap aluminum longsword made by one of the other guys in the group, a super heavy duty sport fencing mask, a plastic sport fencing chest plate, an ice hockey neck guard, a pair of kids football/soccer shin guards I use as forearm guards, a pair of lacrosse gloves, and a pair of lacrosse elbow guards which is fairly typical of people in these kinds of organizations.
Another important feature of these groups is that getting into them is generally a zero risk proposition because you will not be doing any kind of bouting until after you have learned the basic techniques in highly controlled drills which is done with weapons borrowed from other members of the group or a group reserve. You will probably still have to pay a floor fee to cover the cost of the practice room, but that is usually very small once you split it up across the whole group. Assuming you stick with it, you will wind up buying personal equipment as time goes on starting with a wooden weapon and eventually graduating to a full set of gear like I have, although even then the cost is not too high because you can get most of it used at the end of the various sporting seasons for a fraction of the new cost. While it has been too long for me to remember the exact numbers, I would say that my entire kit including the sword was probably less than $500 to cobble together and provides great protection for our training bouts. Plate armor on the other hand will generally run you at least a couple thousand if it is built right (which is essential if you actually want to use it) which is why we do not bother with it.
I should also mention that you may have serious trouble finding somewhere that works with hammers and spears, although learning a two handed sword will give you a lot of what you need to understand them because the framework is the same. Also, it sounds like you might be worried about weight with that line about swinging heavy things which is not at all a concern because real weapons have to be as light as possible for speed which is why a four-foot longsword like what I use typically weighs between 2.5 and 3.5 lbs (1.1 to 1.6 kg) with the balance point very close to the hands so it will almost snap around with minimal effort. You may also want to join the Bronies With Blades group on this site and ask about groups in the forums there to see if you can find someone that can recommend a specific group for you.
3243701 Thou dares to challenge me? I shall smite thee with my Rod of Lordly Might!
3244083 Now, now. There's no need to escalate things. Luckily a wizard always carries protection, wherever they may go:
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3244065
You have to explain that in a bit more detail, please. They do that by making practice swords out of the flimsiest, least steel-like metal they could possibly find? Not trying to insult you here or anything, but I genuinely can't imagine how a sword made of aluminium, of all things, could even work, never even mind feel almost exactly like the real thing. You'd end up with something three times the size (or a third the weight) of an actual steel sword that ought to crumple the moment you swing it at anything solid with even any minimal amount of strength. Speaking from personal experience, even I can permanently bend a thumb-thick aluminium rod out of shape on sheer accident. Maybe I'm missing something obvious there, but even just plain wood sounds like it would be better for the jog. If nothing else it doesn't get bent to shit the moment you actually try to use it for training with.
3244203 First, there are a lot of aluminum alloys with very different properties. Some of them are fairly flimsy like you said while others can be close to steel or titanium in performance and are well established in critical high load areas like aircraft structures and combat vehicle armor (the American M113 is probably the most famous, but there are tons of others from all over the world). Most of the practice swords are made out of the better alloys like 6061, although I think mine is made out of softer 5052 because it was made in a garage.
Second, the material is much thicker than it would be in a steel sword, especially near the edge, and the blades are also often a bit wider than normal for steel swords as well. I just took a tape measure to mine and confirmed that it is made out of quarter inch (6.35mm) stock which remains full thickness to the edge for a very strong and safe blade. That edge thickness is incredibly important because the material at the edge does much more to stiffen the blade than the material near the middle (that is why I-beams are shaped the way they are) so the increase in strength is far greater than the simple increase in thickness would suggest. I also want to stress the importance of this for safety in practice bouts because that extra edge width does a lot to spread out impact energy and greatly reduces the odds of breaking a bone.
Third, you never hit the flat of the blade against anything so all loads have to work against the full width of the sword blade which adds a ton of strength as mentioned in point 2. It is true that some historical weapons block with the flat of the blade to protect the edge, but most later European weapons like the longsword were made with high quality alloys that were essentially spring steel and had relatively broad edges to survive hitting plate armor (hitting plate with a katana will ruin the blade in nothing flat due to their very sharp and brittle edges) so damaging the edge was not a concern and keeping the wrists in line with the block makes your grip a lot stronger.
Fourth, wood is completely unusable in bouting for safety reasons. Wood has a much lower strength-to-weight ratio than steel or aluminum so any wooden sword will have to be much bulkier and heavier than a metal sword to keep it from snapping in training, especially in the blade. That extra weight tends to shift the center of balance out towards the end of the blade unless a very heavy counterweight is added, and doing that pushes the total weight up even more. What this means in practical terms is that a wooden sword will hit much harder as a blunt force weapon and drastically increase the odds of serious injury so they cannot be used in situations where you expect someone to get hit. Incidentally, this extra weight does make them good for basic drills because it helps to build strength as you work on your form so most people do start with a wooden training sword, but they are totally unusable for bouting.
Fifth, the important part of the feel is how the swords slide along each other and transmit pressure in the bind which is hugely different if you are using a padded foam rubber sword with a plastic core instead of a metal sword (although new people do usually use padded weapons in their first bouts for extra safety). There are some small differences between steel and aluminum, but it is not all that significant and steel swords are a lot more expensive than aluminum so they do not see anywhere near as much use if all you are worrying about is learning the martial art. Also, a sharp steel sword will behave slightly differently from a dull steel sword so using a dull steel sword is really no more accurate than using a dull aluminum sword and sharp steel is obviously far too dangerous to use in a practice bout so aluminum is the most common choice.
Sixth, if you do have an aluminum sword that somehow bends on you (something I have literally never seen, and I have seen swords break before due to a design flaw in the early models of our home made aluminum swords), you can unbend it with a vice or something to get it back into service easily enough.
- Heaviest thing I swung on a regular basis was a pick axe, a sledge hammer and a rebar with some concrete at the end (long story)
Well, the weighting is usually in the tool on those kinds of items, if you need to pick a weapon, go with a cudgel, mace, or hammer. Swinging a sword or rapier in combat is completely different than swinging a hammer. The average hammer for combat shouldn't weigh more than 10-15 pounds. Even less, if you can afford a good tool. Some people like to think that a five-pound hammer's going to be as much as they should swing, but you should really consider going with your weight class.
- How does armour? Where go?
Okay, look up a video game with armor set-up. Darksouls, as much as I don't care for the fanboys has a decent setup for explaining how armor works. You need to know the protection the armor affords and the weight of the items to see if they'll encumber you. Most people aren't going to like heavy plate, sticking with light armor to protect just the vitals. While it's usually thought that hammers go with plate...that's only because of the implications for weight. If you wear light armor with a hammer, it's just about the perfect combination of movement and damage. 'Course, hammers aren't that long, so they restrict your range.
- Is there more stuff like this? What the hell have I been missing?
Yeah, there's more stuff. Dagorhir, for example is similar...but with less armor and pain and weight. It uses foam weapons in the combat and focuses more on skill rather than how hard you can swing, so it's sort of like a foundations class. You're going to need it anyways, so might as well try the two simultaneously.
You're also going to want to try practicing beforehand with a heavier tool so that you can get used to the weight of your chosen tool. A training weapon is usually heavier but not as sturdy, while a true weapon (one you intend to get usage out of), is going to be very sturdy, but the weight will depend on you personally.
I personally prefer polearms, so I like to use spare metal rebar strung around more bits of rebar and swing in wide arcs for my practice. Polearms aren't usually 'quick' weapons, but they can be if you practice in another weight class than your tool.
3244083 Zip that back up. Nobody wants to see that.
Edit: sorry. Damn phone's being a bastard.
When I was involved in HEMA training back in the day, my favorite supplier was outfit4events.com. They have a pretty good selection of weapons and armor, and offer their swords blunted for stage and field combat. There are also numerous YouTube channels to help with technique, which will make your bout more fun and less fatal.
The most important thing, though, is to get yourself in shape. The stronger you are physically, the less likely you are to injure yourself or someone else, and the longer you can fight and play afterward. My preferred routines involved kettlebells for core strength and stamina, and Indian clubs, macebells, or a sledgehammer for grip and shoulder strength. Footing under a load works too.
3245247 ...What?
3245253 Again, sorry. I had to reset my phone.
Anyway, a quick Google search of HEMA+Ireland turned up a school in Galway, one in Cork, and one just listed as in northern Ireland, whatever that means. I have no idea what travel is like where you are, but there are also numerous European martial arts schools in Britain and Continental Europe.
If none of that is to your liking or convenience, there's always traditional boxing, which is based on sword (right hand attack) and shield (left hand defend) combat. Have fun.
3243701 challenge accepted
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3251120
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This isn't even my final form.
--
I'm going to stop polluting Handyman's blog now...
Handyman, do not pay attention to IkioStar's post because it is riddled with serious factual errors. No one can effectively use a weapon anywhere near that heavy because of how slow it winds up being and the fact that you do not need anywhere near that much weight to be effective. Also, while armor has significant weight, it is distributed in such a way that you barely feel it so you do not need any special strength to wear it and it does not hamper your mobility at all. I strongly recommend looking into these YouTube channels if you have time because the people running them know what they are talking about and have historically accurate equipment to work with.
https://www.youtube.com/user/SkallagrimNilsson
https://www.youtube.com/user/lindybeige
https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
Edit: This video in particular should be of particular interest to you because it discusses the blunt weapons you are interested in:
Wow, this conversation is still going on?
3252476 Don't sound so surprised. After all you came back to read over it again =p
In truth I kinda want to work with warhammers and spears because those are weapons Handy uses (technically a glaive but he was trained to handle a spear so he had a better idea of what he was doing with the glaive, the warhammer he has never been formally trained in and only has his experiences to go on) so I can get a better feel for how he would fight and portray that in the story. Admittedly even then it's still a bit of style over substance, with describing what he does rather than saying he takes x stance for y reason. (same reason why i dont go over calling each and every bit of his armour by name when he uses it, so long as I've got the basics and behaviours right, being super technical would be wankery and distracting for the ordinary lay reader)
My other reason as to why I want to get into this is because I want to dress up in heavy armour and fight people. Like, a lot.
Seriously, cannot overestimate how much I want to get into a huge armoured fight, no matter how much its going to hurt.
3252476 Honestly, I mostly just realized that he might not know about those channels and figured he could use the recommendation. I then noticed the errors when I got here and went ahead and corrected them for him, but that was very much incidental to the purpose behind that post.
3252503 Given the fact that Handy does not really know what he is doing with the hammer, it makes sense for him to be using a bit of style over substance because he is drawing half his information from what he saw in movies.
Also, you most definitely need to learn what you are doing so you can suit up and get into a fight with medieval weapons. It is an absolutely awesome feeling and more than worth the generally minor lumps you will get in the process. Really the only downside is that you will be perpetually unimpressed with every form of unarmed striking after you learn how to use a real melee weapon because I guarantee you can deliver a bigger hit with a longsword than even the best people in the world can manage unarmed, but you will have a sword so who cares?
3252503 I can respect that kind of attention to detail.
And for the record- I have this blog post bookmarked as a way to quickly get on fimficiton because it was the last site page I was one when I decided I wanted a shortcut. I never got around to changing it to the sites front page because lazy...