Is Project Horizons killing other FoE fics? · 4:22pm May 3rd, 2015
I'm not writing this to start a war. I'm writing it because on another thread it became apparent that some people feel this way and I was less than articulate with how I handed it. I said some things that upset others. So I apologize for that.
I was upset because I care deeply for both my story and for Fallout Equestria. The idea that Horizons would be damaging the community was upsetting for me, because I want this community to last as long as it possibly can and I know that Horizons serves as a base breaker for a lot of people. I don't want that, and I never intended for it to be.
Project Horizons has been a labor of blood, sweat, and tears for four years now. For its flaws (and it has many; size, length, references, and sex among them) I am immensely proud of it. I look forward to writing other things and hope that I will be able to be even better in the future. So the notion that Horizons was to blame for other fics not being written was highly upsetting for me. I'm used to receiving some harsh criticism for my story itself, but the notion that Horizons would affect other stories was off to me.
Please understand that I can only ever see things from the position of being Somber, author of Horizons. I've never tried to start another FoE fic from scratch. I know that just getting readers at all was a big struggle, and if it hadn't been for me asking Seth at EQD for my own page years and year ago, Horizons probably would have withered on the vine. The exposure was critical to getting the support needed to continue. I've never tried to get another story going in FoE as an annoymous author. Maybe I should, except that I need to finish Horizons asap.
To my response, I offered the other argument that perhaps other stories weren't being read because they were inferior in writing. I understand how utterly arrogant and presumptuous that is, and I apologize for hurt feelings. However, if you look at the bulk of writing on the internet, the sad fact is not all of it is high quality. Not everyone has taken years of practice to make it so. Not everyone has a great grasp of story, character, or plot. One thing Horizons has done is given me a lot of practice writing, and I'd like to think some people read horizons for the quality of my writing. Horizons can't be blamed for the failure of those fics, any more than Fallout Equestria can be blamed for the failure of other poorly written fics on FimFiction.
As for the exposure, that's something I can't control. I went out looking for exposure. I needed feedback. It attracted my editors, and love them or hate them, Horizons would have died without them. They supported me and donated hundreds of hours of work time to improving the story with their honest opinion and hard work. I promoted Horizons wherever I could, and much of the feedback was good. I'm not talking about forums. I received private E-mails from people saying how Blackjack had helped them in their lives... in not giving up, in doing better, in doing something because its right rather than easy. I wish that other good stories didn't have to compete against a slurry of poorly written ones, and I hope that the creme rises up to the point where they get the notice good writing deserves. Exposure is work, and luck, and more work. I got extremely lucky, and I've plugged other works in my editor's notes... but the sad fact is I don't read other FoE fics and so am limited in the recommendations I can give.
My apologies to everyone who feels that Horizons has crowded them out. I can understand the frustration that must generate, and I can only imagine how hard it must be to combat and work on your own stories. I can only say that if you truly want to be a read writer, do not let something like Horizons, or any story, keep you from writing. If the story is good, eventually it will be noticed. I firmly believe that quality and hard work are rewarded. It's easy for me to say, of course, but it's what I believe. And there plenty of readers who don't like Horizons. Find those readers. Court them. Give them something to read and enjoy in the wasteland. Work constantly to make your story as good as you possibly can... and accept that not everyone is going to read you, no matter how good you are. Be thankful for the readers you have. Don't worry about the readers you think you should have. The former are the ones who matter. There will never be enough of the latter.
Thank you, and good reading and good writing.
Somber
Edit: I also want to add this link to other stories people can check out. Please do, and spread love for ones you enjoy!
http://www.reddit.com/r/falloutequestria/comments/34imz0/monthly_sidefic_recommendation_thread_may_2015/
Wait, so you're the author of Project Horizons? Sorry if I seem stupid; I haven't been paying a large amount of attention.
I also think that the reason why other fictions have had a hard time piercing in the FoE verse is because of a lack, if not of creativity, of influx of new ideas. Many often says "PH did it" and all that yaddi-yadda. And I still think that fictions presenting new, fresh plots and ideas will have their time to shine.
The fact that also your fiction is coming to an end (relatively) soon will create a potential potent vacuum that will grant other and rather anonymous fictions their time to shine as PH i.e. the "Big Thing" will finally be settled.
3040452 I really, really hope that's true. This was over a blow up on reddit, and a bunch of people suggested that I address it upfront rather than let it smolder. But I want there to be lots of FoE stories. I want this community to last, and I hope other new readers to the community will read horizons as well as other fics!
3040446 Yup. I'm the author of that story.
3040466
I did not know that...
To put it bluntly
reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/oh_yes_david_tennant.gif
Horizons is easily four stories in one
Would've been better if you had kept to "Project Horizons" and left the other Projects (Steelpony, Chimera, Hydra, etc) for other people to pursue
Leave some of the Wasteland for the rest of us, Somber
I've got nothing against it as a whole, but there's huge parts of the story people can skip without losing any overall understanding of the plot
3040466
One of the main problems as you stated is indeed "exposure". At the moment for people wanting to read FoE stuff, fimfiction or EQD might not be the best places to focus on this subfandom. Moreover, the fallout-equestria.com library is not built around enhancing exposure as it only work as a shelf for every stories there and there that are submitted.
I think it also comes from people have early one named and settled the term "Big Four + 1" which presents "Guise", "Pink Eyes", "PH", "Heroes" and "MN7" as the FoE fan-fanfictions. This kind of naming doesn't help other fictions to grow as they are indirectly denigrated by such appellation.
No.
it _doesnt fucking work that way_. It's asinine to even suggest it, and the folks in question need to pull their heads out of their collective asses and take a long hard look at why they're blaming you for their failures.
it'd be like blaming Kudzuhaiku because Broken Accords isn't getting the readership you want.
3040516
Sorry for being incredibly nitpicky.
The term is "Big Five". It includes Fallout: Equestria, Project Horizons, Pink Eyes, Heroes, and Murky Number Seven.
Guise of Chaos has never been considered one of the "big ones". You can tell just by comparing its upvotes/comments/etc. to other stories.
If ever PH was blamed for the death of another FoE fic, it would be entirely the fault of the author.
Like you said, exposure is based on luck and work. Some people just expect all of the luck, and don't do any of the work. The worst part is, the second things don't go their way they need something to blame, and in this case that just happens to be PH.
Its fanfiction, even if it has been done there is nothing wrong with making your own version of it. Sure someone might have beat ya to it but you can expand on an idea, make a what if or just remake the whole thing better then the "original".
If you have an idea then go for it and let nothing stop you, and if you chicken out don't blame it on others.
To say that the success of one story is preventing others from being written by stealing their audience is ridiculous. It's not like this is network TV where every show has a time slot and one channel winning more viewers necessarily means that other channels don't get them. People are perfectly capable of reading and following along with multiple stories, and what they don't read is their decision, not a result of being forced to choose only one.
If people aren't reading your story... well, then you either don't have enough publicity, which isn't some other story's fault, or you're not writing what people want to read, which is again not the fault of someone else's story.
Or, at least, that's how it works for me - I've never read FoE and I don't read FoE based fics (so take that as a caveat, I guess) because it's simply not an interesting crossover genre or premise to me, not because other stories out-compete them somehow. There could be *no* other MLP fanfiction around and that still wouldn't change that I don't read stories that don't interest me. Similarly, out of the stuff that does interest me, I've never fretted over picking just one story to read when faced with a number of different stories that all seem good. There's the Read It Later library here on FiMFiction and bookmarks for other websites and any number of whatever other ways people like to use to keep a list of things to go back and look at again.
At the bottom line, I'm not seeing one author's success as something that other authors have legitimate grounds to complain about, so I wouldn't worry about it. I've been on EqD twice and it's netted me some readers, which is cool. Of course I feel bad for authors who complain bitterly and call sour grapes on EqD because they wanted to get on there and couldn't, because I know that it sucks to have work rejected, but that doesn't really mean that their disappointments are my problem to have to worry about and address.
Ha! No.
Dude, if they're getting bitter about your story being read by more people, that's not your problem. Honestly, anyone here that has a popular story gets thrown in as "overhyped" or "unworthy" or something. Which is honestly, just jealous BS.
Your story draws readers in. That's your fault for being a competent writer that, as you put it, threw blood, tears and sweat into his story.
FOE fics have a stigma that doesn't have anything to do with Horizons specifically. Some don't like that new FOE authors learned everything of what they're writing about from FOE itself, rather than Fallout. Some think that everything FOE is shock-value. There's people that simply don't like so many spin-offs, and that's what these guys that are telling you that crap are facing. And yet others see the quality of writing of beginning authors and cringe. And finally, let's face it, a shitload of FOE fics are basically derivative and unimaginative with non-engaging plots, predictable humor, no consistency at all and uninteresting characters.
Honestly, it just boils down to the majority of people NOT wanting to read new FOE fics for many reasons, but you can't blame Horizons for it. It's like blaming "FOE: Heroes" for destroying the way for other FOE authors just because it's popular and well written.
Like 3040593 said. They need to get their heads out of their asses.
3040508
I really hope you're being sarcastic.
3040466 I doubt that others will stop writing in the FoE universe. I have one in the works myself, just have to get from mind to computer... Or paper then computer. Anyways, no, I don't think the stories have been used up, by either you, or Kkat or any of the other big five. Shoot, I notice Ashes by Relyet isn't mentioned, nor is Starlight by Volrathxp, both excellent stories. I can't wait for Ashes to continue, it's got my interest as well as your's.
And I'm sorry, but for a writer to think they are being presumptuous that the other stories aren't being read is because they are inferior in writing is not a bad thing. For crying out loud, has anyone heard of Roger Zelazny? Wrote the Princes of Amber and Trumps of Doom books, written in first person. I judge all first person writing based on his works. If I don't feel like I'm sitting across from the main character as they explain what happened, then the author blew it and I won't go beyond first chapter, or sometimes beyond the first paragraph. You, Somber, nailed it. I feel like Blackjack is sitting there with a few bottles of Wild Pegasus telling me what happened and how fucked up the Wasteland is.
Let me boil this done to one simple thing. You keep doing what you're doing and let the others worry about their own stories. If they weren't fast enough to get it out, sorry, but them's the brakes. And why not an alternative? I mean let's take Leather and Lace and Green. Two stories about Fluttershy and Rarity, written pretty darn close to the same time with same concepts. Guess what, read them both, both great stories. Leather and Lace is good for a "fast" read, and Green is much more in depth, but depends on what you're in the mood for.
Eh, I'm going on a rant now, sorry. I don't think the stories have been played out yet with FOE, I doubt they will be for a long time. It'll depend on the next writers who decide to pick up the gauntlet that Kkat unintentional threw down on an epic world that is loved by so many that we don't want the story to end.
3040593 That's more the fault of me focusing on getting Horizons done... and being lazy... very lazy... sigh...
3040508 You're right.
Horizons is too big. It's three or four seperate stories smashed together. If I'd been more organized, I would have made each story an exclusive story. However, none of Horizons is canon. You can use whatever you like. You just have to be exceptionally careful with how you do it. For example, if you created your own OIA, then it'd look bad. But if you tell about some ponies in the MoP who were so fanatically devoted to Fluttershy that they took it on themselves to create pony chimeras then you can get around everything Horizons did. Better yet, you can play off of it. Instead of these ponies being neglectful mad scientists like Sanguine, have them be compassionate and caring individual and their creations truly do love them in spite of their tortured existence.
The point is that it isn't that Horizons has done it. Whatever Horizons has done has been done in other stories first, and better. What matters is how you do it to make it yours. You need cyberponies? if it's a critical part of the story, do it. If it's just a character gimmick, then maybe you don't. You need eldrich horrors? If it's a critical part of the story, do it. If it's just spooky setting stuff... maybe you don't.
There's nothing written that can't be worked around.
Don't lose any sleep over it, Somber.
It's not like people are completely unable to read any other FoE story because of PH.
That's just stupid.
~Twi
You shouldn't have to worry about people that aren't spending the right amount of time and effort into their own stories to make them good. You just do what you feel and want to do. It seems considerate of you to address this rather than ignoring it though. (They need to add a kind Fluttershy smile face.) But, like anyone has already said these people might not be putting the best in their writing and just throw out the general idea they go for and leave a blank space in details that matter. I came up with an idea for an FoE fic a while ago and I'm still working out the details, cause I now realize just how much effort and planning go into a good, well written story. So, keep up the good work and don't worry, I believe this fandom will last for a while.
3040646 My point still stands
I'm glad Somber's broken up the story, and no one has to regard it as canon, so other people can do whatever they like, but given the support PH has, if someone does something against it, they're going to get blasted into smithereens, which can deter possible writers from making their own entry into the Wasteland Saga
On a side note, I'm well-known for being lethally sarcastic; takes some getting used to, so you're better off not taking anything I say or do seriously~Allons~y!
3041002 To put it bluntly: There is no point to what you said for it to stand.
Somber thought up those situations and plot points. No one ever accused Horizons of being the ONE AND ONLY story with those themes. He didn't take them from anyone else. Saying that Somber should have dropped them off and handed his ideas to others to write is the same as saying that others have no original ideas at all and are incapable of coming up with something themselves.
It's—frankly—extremely pretentious to suggest that you, or anyone else, deserves to be handed out stuff just like that because the original author should do it just because you want to. If you're so desperate to write something with Project Chimera, no one is stopping you from creating an offshoot of it, while drawing some elements of it and being somewhat original with it: like a splinter cell where other experiments were taking place. There. Simple mini-plot.
Seriously. No author owes it to anyone to stop writing just so others can use their ideas.
3041047 That's...not what I meant at all, but thank you for answering it anyway
I've read an unedited segment of PH that you once put up. If I were you, I would avoid talking about the "poor quality" of writing on the internet. and instead spend this paragraph thanking all the people who help you with PH, Again, that is.
Everything you said was true. I have tried to read several other FoE spin offs. Some are quite good. Murky Number Seven especially is a real gem but others, not so much.
There is an unbelievable number of stories on this site. Of that, how many do you consider worth reading? Now take that same idea and apply it to FoE section.
Reading Project Horizons made me want to become a better writer and a better person. I can honestly say that it is the best story I've ever read. Only one other story made me care so much about its characters, to the point that when something bad happens to them I feel very sad for several days (unless I read back when something very good happened to them, that usually helps).
I read about that comment on Reddit you've mentioned on Cloudsville forum, and skimmed it over. I think that person is a jelous jerk. And apparently doesn't know how to write a good story (if I remember correctly, he/she mentioned that you could have finished Project Horizons about 40 chapters ago; considering that normally a story doesn't end until most of the plotlines aren't concluded, you couldn't have stopped there, even if Blackjack had died and Scotch would have taken over as main character, as I believe I read you mention somewhere you originally planned).
It is true my stories (not just the FoE ones, but others as well) have nowhere near as many fans as Project Horizons. So what? I still have a long way before I'll finish them, I might get some more popularity. Until then, I am happy with the feedback I am receiving so far. You've been working on your story longer than I was in the fandom, and you not only wrote it, but also worked about promoting it on sites like Equestria Daily. You worked to get Project Horizons on the pedestal it is on.
So no, for me, your story isn't killing FoE fics. I personally see it as an example and inspiration to do better.
3041002 This is completely false.
For one, I've never seen a FO:E fic get bashed for not following PH canon.
Two, I have a specific counterexample: Fallout: Equestria - Memories. That story unashamedly stole the idea of the "Enclave-made raider-causing disease" and deeply integrated it into its own story, while also messing around with a bunch of the details so that the concept fit the story it wanted to tell, rather than Project Horizons' story.
Not a single person complained. (Except for Seraphem, who goes on lengthy rants every time he gets reminded of PH for any reason, but he doesn't count.)
Authors blaming PH for their lack of readers are just delusional.
If I take myself as an example, I started with FoE, then I started reading PH (and I'm still reading), I read Starlight and I'm also reading Heroes.
So no, PH doesn't prevent people from reading other FoE stories.
3040804
Spoken by an author who's broken all the rules.
i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t386/Derpmind/DealWithSomber.png~original
(Still haven't worked up the nerve to read the new half-chapter yet.)
I think your doing pretty good with your story Somber.
It certainly doesn't sound like it should hurt other stories. As is, I'm reading a few other stories in and out of Fallout Equestria fanfiction.
If people don't read the other stories that's there own fault. Horizons though is long, updated somewhat regularly and well written. Many storys cannot make that claim. I like Horizons. Its a great story, one of the better ones I've ever read. Haters gotta hate. But Horizons doesn't deserve hate, it deserves praise because its good. As good as the original in my opinion. And in many ways more realistic than the original story. Everything in that story worked out. I don't think it will in Horizons. And life never really works out.
As others have said, it is not your fault or your responsibility.
You have done an incredible job of fleshing out the FO:E universe - it is true that if people wish to keep canon-compliant with PH, a lot of the lowest-hanging fruit is taken, but at the same time, you shouldn't feel guilty about that. You wrote all the words, you fleshed it all out. You put in the time, before anyone else, to make that a reality, so you deserve the fanon plot you've staked out.
I recognize that it is hard to not be PH-compliant, given that it is such a monolith of the 'verse, at this point. However, PH-compliancy is only even an issue most of the time if you're writing into the past or in Hoofington. The former is now harder, but by no means impossible, and the latter exists due to you anyway.
Look at Heroes or Pink Eyes - neither conflicts with PH at all, that I can notice, despite probably not being designed as compliant.
Do not feel bad for worldbuilding. It's not easy, nor easy to exposit well. Your writing PH doesn't necessarily mean that other fics that would have otherwise filled the vacuum failed where they could have succeeded. Were that the case, we'd have the Big 6 or the Big 7 right now. If a writer is really that good (in all dimensions, mind), it'll get noticed.
(On a side note: I know that one of my friends, who is working on a (mostly completed and pretty fun!) FO:E RPG system has gotten a lot of useful material from PH, that the system would be poorer without it.)
Project Horizons is your story. You can do whatever you want with it. Don't let the opinions of naysayers get you down. KKat has made it very clear that no side-stories are actually cannon, so no matter what you do, it shouldn't upset people
I've always loved Project Horizons, and nothing you change about it will change my opinion. Keep up the good work!
PH isn't killing other fics, other fics' authors are. They don't have the patience or the perseverance to keep going with it when they don't get immediate results. That's why we don't get many good new stories, and the ones that we do get, we get anyway. Look at Anywhere But Here, look at Wasteland Economics - both up-and-coming stories, because they're both good.
You're not to blame for other fics withering away - if anything, you're responsible for inspiring the authors and making them be written in the first place.
3040466
Honestly... as I see it, most of the super-popular stories right now are just those that appeared first. Those amongst those first ones that were good enough to catch people's attention have had the time to attract a large base of followers.
But this is the same as asking "does the existence of Star Trek kill off any other budding sci-fi series?"
Basically, it's a ridiculous idea. Other stories might get compared to the older and larger and more popular ones, but they still stand on their own. And, given a couple of years, they might attract a comparable fanbase. The earlier ones had a bit of an advantage in the fact they were doing something new, but that's about it. Beyond that, it's squarely the story itself that attracts or doesn't attract readers.
3041119 That's what editors are for.
Simspons did it!
3043207
Was it not their job to stop PH from being so sidetracked and overlong?
3043289
Not really. That's the author's job. Editors are usually not involved in the story planning. They just get the current piece.
3043289 It was their job to make Horizons better than I could on my own. Every chapter is the result of five people, and numerous other people after publication, working their butts off. Snipehamster wanted to end it when BJ goes to the core and loses her body to cognitum. I wanted to proceed to the end I envisioned. The others were fine with the current length. There were irreconcilable differences and he left the team. More the pity. Regardless, the problems with the story's size are in my writing and poor planning. That said, there are some that enjoy Horizons because of its size, and others that enjoy it because of its size.
3045070
I think you meant to put a *despite in there instead of a second 'besides'?
Anyways... While I can understand your reasoning for posting this thread, I still find the whole thing a bit silly. "Project Horizons is too big, it's taking up all the readers that should be reading my two-bit sidestory instead!" Let me share a story... Currently my Fo:E story is about 41k words long, seven chapters. First I hand-write it, then I proofread and type it into Microsoft Word. Then I retype it into Gdoc's (proofreading it again), then I import it into Fimfic and proofread it once more before publishing. I do this because I don't have, nor ever have had an editor. Sure this makes it take a long time to get chapters out with my schedule, but it's worth it if the quality of writing is the highest I can achieve on my own. Despite the amount of time I put into each chapter (Sometimes I'll spend upwards of ten minutes on one tiny paragraph just trying to get the words phrased 'just right') my story currently has 15 likes and 210 views. Most people would probably be bothered by this, but to me I think it's awesome that 16 people thought it was good enough to favorite.
The only reason people are complaining about your story is because they are either 1.) Jealous that your story has the success they want, or 2.) Immature and they want attention. Sure there are things about your story I really didn't like, things you did to your characters and blah blah blah. But you know what's funny about the internet? People are just as free to reserve their whiny opinions, as they are to share them. Go figure.
tl:dr As a Fo:E writer, proofreader, and admin, I think the notion that your story's success is hampering others is completely ridiculous. Your story is long yes, but it's not long enough to occupy all the reading time of the majority of readers... I'm not the smartest pony around but even I know that doesn't add up.
P.S. /) For apologizing to the people you may/may not have offended, it's always cool to see people own up to their mistakes even if they were accidental.
3045890
You mean instead of a second 'because'
3040452 *tickles publish button on a hidden FoE fic* Soon, precious. Soon.
Mister 3053487 has some plans, I see :3
3066194 Thank you. That was my feelings too when stuff blew up. Hopefully things improve for everyone. I want the FoE community to grow, not be tugged apart.
Hello? Am I speaking to Somber? Okay. I'll try not to be ranty about this.
When I first read this story, I thought it was rough, but I still found it okay. When I actually thought about the story, really processed through what I had read, I found myself loathing the story. In my mind, it followed none of the "rules" set down by the original Fallout: Equestria, yet still tried to work it's way into the story. It had characters I ended up not caring about, due to the thought, "oh they'll just get back up again"(blame that on Captain Blackjack Harkness and Rampage). And it never gave an opportunity to see the story from other points of view. For example, when Blackjack dies for the first time, we then see P-21 take up the mantle of 'Security" until he dies, and then it's taken up by another member.
But, you can't really change what's already been written down for years now, so I guess I'm just throwing out ideas. However, if there was one thing that could have saved this story for me, I think it would have been if it was kept separate from the original story. Then it could have been going by it's own rules.
But that's just my thoughts, and I can understand why other people enjoy this.
EDIT: Also it could have taken itself less seriously. When you have two undying characters and an alicorn, I think you can have a lot more one-liners and joke-cracking. That could be pretty cool.