Problems With Human in Equestria Romances · 11:44am Mar 27th, 2015
Why do so many Human in Equestria romance stories fail so spectacularly to seem at all plausible?
Mostly because too many romantic HiE stories are about generic fan / gamer kids who wind up having the most beautiful, fascinating and important mares in the land falling for them for absolutely no plausible reason. It's a lot harder to make a character who is believably such a soulmate with a specific Pony matching that description that their love transcends the differences of culture and species.
And note: these are potentially rather major differences. Yes, Spike and Rarity, but Spike has been raised a Pony, has the mannerisms of a young Canterlot gentlecolt (something Rarity specifically finds attractive), is extremely nice, helpful, honorable and intelligent, has an aggressive attitude toward achieving success which makes him a kindred spirit to Rarity herself, and is the adopted younger brother of one of Rarity's best friends AND has cultivated her affections for years.
Cultural differences. In my Equestria, courtship customs are more like those of Progressive Era America or Edwardian Britain (i.e., the 1910's) than they are like those of the 2010's America or Britain. Many of the things most young Millennials or Homelanders would assume regarding the rate at which one progresses from expressing romantic interest to actually having sex would offend most respectable Equestrians. Then, to throw even conservatives from our world for a loop, Equestrians see absolutely no problem with homosexual or polygamous marriages, provided that everypony involved can get along and play nice with one another -- and expressions of disgust at such relationships would be seen as extremely un-Harmonious. Oh, and open displays of anger, especially from males, are deemed uncouth.
I justify each of these in terms of Pony biology and Equestrian history, but the combination of factors could make it very difficult for a Human male from any Earthly culture, at least until he'd assimilated a bit, to avoid triggering some repulsion from many Equestrian mares.
I've seen other plausible Equestrian cultures with some highly alien features from our point of view. For instance, those with extreme female dominance, such that most statements by most males would not be taken seriously. Or those with various stallion dearths so that polygyny is assumed. Or ones with extremely cyclical sex, such that everypony mates catch-as-catch can when in estrus, and shows absolutely no romantic interest at other times (but may still form strong friendships across sexual lines, and tend to marry and mostly mate with their dearest friends). Or ones where Equestrian niceness is dialed Up To Eleven, so that even contemplating serious violence would arouse utter horror from most Ponies, even against a deadly foe. All these Equestrias would require some serious acculturation on the part of the visitor before he could hope to get anywhere with his beloved.
Species differences can also be important. For instance, real equines have extremely good senses of smell and superior hearing by human standards. Pony sexual attraction could be strongly mediated by scent or vocal tones, and Humans might not smell or sound right.
To take my Ponies, I give females a 21-day estrus cycle, for 1-3 days of which the mare is in estrus. While in estrus, she desires sex more (though not to the point of overwhelming the judgement of most normal mares) and emits an odor (called "marescent") which sexually arouses any stallions in the vicinity (though, again, not to the point of overwhelming the judgement of most normal stallions). Sexual arousal without satisfaction makes Ponies slightly irritable: mares tend to be more emotionally demanding, and stallions more combative.
This has had profound effects on the development of Pony culture. Until the last couple of centuries, there was no reliable way to suppress marescent, which meant that mares were irritable 1/7 of the time and stallions, in any settlement, irritable almost 100% of the time because at least one nearby mare would be in estrus. In consequence, the sexes were occupationally-segregated, and stallions were deemed naturally less calm and reliable (and hence less suitable for jobs requiring intelligence and wisdom) than mares. This, in fact, is the reason why Equestria is a matriarchy.
Then, around 200 years ago, "suppressor" drugs were developed which enabled a mare to greatly reduce her marescent, and slightly reduce her own fertility and irritability when in estrus. The consequences, which have been working themselves out for those last two centuries, has been a steady increase in the social status of stallions toward equality with mares; a reduction in sexual segregation in occupations; and a small decline in sexual morality.
How would this affect a Human in Equestria? Well, for starters, a man would not naturally respond to marescent, though if he had a keen nose for a Human he could smell it, and he might become culturally-conditioned to respond to it (Spike, who has an excellent olfactory sense, has learned to find it arousing through his knowledge of what it means, but he doesn't become irritable because it's not the musk of a Dragoness). This would make him seem both a bit cold, and excitingly self-restrained, to most mares -- though he would spoil the latter impression if he had any emotional outburst or made a crude pass at a mare (Spike, of course, knows better than to do either, which is one of the subtler reasons why Rarity finds him attractive).
A woman would have a more serious problem. She would emit no marescent, and hence not instinctively arouse stallions at all! Now Pony stallions, being sapient, might still find her attractive for other reasons, and some stallions might appreciate the fact that it was easy to remain calm around her. But she'd still be handicapped.
One must also consider acoustic channels. Ponies have superior hearing to Humans, and a superior vocal range; their language is partially tonal and almost as much sung as spoken; at the same time their concept of song is not precisely ours and its complexity might throw us. (This is one reason why they sometimes burst into spontaneous song; for them, this is but slightly poetic speech). We also would have problems hearing their highest vocal registers. Without a translation spell, it would be difficult (though not impossible) for Humans and Ponies to verbally communicate. Even with a translation spell, we can miss some of the subtleties of our language.
Our own voices would tend toward the lower octaves of their acoustic registers, and our language both simple and precise, rather as if we were speaking in some sort of structured code. This is because Equestrian words and phrases are complex and rich in connotations and allusions, but the levels of ambiguity can get in the way of precise denotation. A semi-literal translation of Equestrian into English would sound to us like the flowery language of the Heian Japanese court or the circumlocutions of Confucian scholar-gentry. The speech of sophisticated Equestrians -- the sort of conversations that Celestia and Twilight Sparkle have, for instance, would require massive footnoting for us to understand, unless very colloquially-translated. There are aspects to Equestrian culture which are less like that of the America or Britain of a century ago than that of the China or Japan of a millennium ago.
This is possible because Equestrian speech has a wider bandwidth than our own. Conversely, our speech would be slow by their standards, and if interpreted literally rather crude, harsh, simplistic, almost barbaric. But it would be very logical, almost too logical, from their point of view. They'd perceive us rather as we might perceive very slowly and deliberately-speaking Star Trek Vulcans -- and this would be a misperception, because Humans are actually not significantly more logical than the Ponies. Just as we would misperceive Twilight Sparkle's speech as rapid-fire but very well composed lyrical songs. As for a really poetic tongue, such as upper-class Zebrican, with its multiple kennings, rhymes and alliterations -- that might strain even the translation spells.
As regards to vision, the situation is reversed. Part of the reason why the Ponies are so gaudily colored is that Humans actually have superior color vision to the Ponies. Pony art would look extremely bright and simplistic in terms of color shades to us; Human art rather dark, gloomy, and low-contrast to Ponies. Pony cosmetics would look overdone to our eyes; Human cosmetics barely noticeable to theirs. Our skin and hair shades would seem rather dull to Pony eyes.
While we're on the topic of vision, it should be noted that the Ponies really are more neotenous than are any Earthly horses. In addition to the obvious larger braincases (necessary to house their large and capable brains), their eyes are bigger and their muzzles smaller than those of our world's horses. (The same could be said of Humans compared to the apes of Zebrica).
On the other hand, the show does exaggerate their neoteny to make them cuter to our sensibilities. Their eyes are smaller and their muzzles larger than the show depicts: while Humans (especially those who already like the looks of horses) would tend to find them cute, we wouldn't find them as cute as their animated depictions. We would not find them as sexually-attractive, because they don't look as Human.
Facial and body language is part of it. While Pony faces are more mobile than those of Earthly horses, they are not as mobile as shown on the show, and not all of that mobility is used the same way we use ours. Pony facial expressions do in part center on the eyes and mouth, as do ours, but they also make extensive use of their ears in ways impossible to Humans. A Human who already understood Earth-equine facial expressions would have a leg up on understanding Pony facial expressions, though of course they aren't identical.
Body language is very different. Though Pony forelegs are capable of most of the range of motion of our own arms, the Ponies are semi-obligate quadrupeds (they can't move very fast or sure-footedly on only their hind legs, compared to Humans) and hence most of their body language has developed to be executed from a quadrupedal posture. Caudal (tail) motions are extremely important, as is the position of the head and neck. The body may lean forward or back, the hooves (especially forehooves) may move or scrape in ways signficant to emotional display (a difference in body language is part of the reasons many Ponies find Zebras unnerving).
LIkewise, a lot of our body language would look strange to them. First of all, we look to them as if we are perpetually rearing, which would be alarming from a naive Pony point of view, as Ponies would do this only when quite angry, frightened or otherwise emotionally excited. Those Ponies used to dealing with bipeds (such as the Minotaurs or Diamond Dogs) would be less disconcerted, but it is something which might cause misperceptions. Our habit of waving our hands and arms about when we speak might also bother them. And we have no tails with which to express annoyance, happiness or sadness, or use to flirt.
These problems could be eased to some extent by translation spells (which could allow mutual understanding of intended communications) but such have limits -- for instance, actual illusions as to the positions of body parts would impede actually seeing each other's bodies, and could result in embarrassing consequences if a Human slapped a Pony because she didn't realize his hand was moving, or a Pony stamped on a Human's foot because he didn't realize that she had repositioned her forehooves.
Obviously, misunderstandings regarding facial and body language could get in the way of romance. Speaking of which, there are points to be made about the body which could get in the way of sexual attraction.
Human males are very centered on breasts. Pony mares don't have them, not by our standards, and they're not located where someone unfamiliar with equine anatomy would expect them to be.
The basal placental-mammalian condition is to have a row of paired nipples from the upper to the lower torso -- from where we have ours down to the abdomen. Humans lost all but the top pair of nipples. Ponies lost all but the bottom pair of nipples. In other words, a Pony's nipples are right in front of -- or if the Pony is bipedal or on her back, right above -- the abdominal wall of her vaginal passage (which is more toward her rear than is the case for a Human woman, especially given a Pony's normal quadrupedal posture.
What's more, a Pony mare doesn't have two prominent fleshy breasts to which the nipple is attached. She has an udder to which her teats are attached. The udder is normally a subtle swelling and the teats small, unless the mare is lactating -- something she normally does only when she is either very pregnant or has birthed a foal within the last year.
This is an erogenous zone for Ponies, but not as major a zone as are breasts for Humans. For one thing, in a Pony's normal condition and posture, they're difficult to see (it would be considered very rude for a stallion to dip his head down to stare at a mare's udder, or focus his gaze there if she were rearing).
This gets squarely into flirting and possible miscommunications.
To begin with, Ponies normally go naked. They wear clothing for social, and sometimes for erotic display. The most erotic thing from a stallion's point of view is not a naked mare (which he sees constantly) but a mare who is wearing something that imperfectly or incompletely conceals the key parts of her anatomy. Something frilly, or gauzy, or short, or with a skirt concealing from the front but not from the back, would count. (What Maud Pie wears, however, is highly anti-erotic -- and this is intentional on her part -- she dislikes display).
You may notice that fillies also often wear short skirts, or clothing which covers only the front. This is not meant as erotic display, because fillies are too young to be considered sexual beings. Even in the case of older fillies, who have begun their estrus cycles, they aren't yet emitting full marescent, and while they are probably using partial suppressors in part as a training device (to get them accustomed to taking theirs regularly), they don't smell sexually attractive to full-grown stallions. First estrus usually occurs in the late preteen years; but first full marescent doesn't usually happen until the early to late teens. A stallion experiencing serious sexual attraction to a filly younger than about 15 would be considered strange and even possibly perverted, though the legal Age of Consent in Equestria ranges from 10-12 in coastal areas to 12-14 in the heartland. Marriage is rare before around 18-22.
This is another possible source of miscommunication. Human men are unlikely to be able to tell the difference between fillyscent and marescent, and the change does not always synchronize perfectly with physical growth. Conversely, a stallion naive to Human ways might not be able to tell the difference between a woman and a girl, because the major scent-cue for which he is instinctively primed is not available, and he is not primed to see breast growth as a sign of sexual maturity so much as a sign of pregnancy.
Mares and women would be more able to tell the difference between men and boys; or stallions and colts, because this is more a matter of increased breadth of chest and musculature (though there actually are scent cues as well for Ponies). Pony colts, just like Human boys, do experience growth in their genitalia as they pass puberty, but just as with Humans this alone can be an unreliable guide to actual sexual maturity.
One sign of sexual maturity is that a full stallion is more capable of emotional and sexual restraint than is a colt just becoming a stallion. In other words, a Human man who behaved in an emotionally-excitable fashion would be signalling immaturity to a Pony mare, who would thus be inclined to treat him more like a colt than a stallion. Conversely, a very calm man would be signalling maturity, and hence sexual attractiveness (This is one reason why all the mares are attracted to Big Mac; he is normally a very calm stallion).
Stallions, just like mares, normally go naked, and when they are clothed they normally wear clothing only on the front parts of their bodies. This does not put their genitalia on display, because their testes are between their hind legs and their penises are normally within thick protective sheaths, analogous to Human foreskins. When a stallion has an erection, he unsheathes -- the penis slides out and becomes visible.
One of the more embarrassing things that can happen to a stallion is to involuntarily unsheathe, especially in the presence of mares. Involuntary unsheathing is most likely to occur if he becomes sexually aroused, and marescent can sexually arouse him. Other things, mostly connected to the presence of mares, can also sexually arouse him. Involuntary unsheathing, especially if it happens frequently, implies a general lack of intellectual, emotional and moral restraint, and can reduce his sexual desirability.
There are two unfortunate aspects of Human male sexuality in this regard. Men have very minor foreskins by Pony standards: from the viewpoint of a mare, we are always unsheathed. This would be seen by them as more or less obscene if we didn't tend to wear clothes over our genitals. The other is that Human male genitals are smaller, and especially shorter, then Pony male genitals. The mismatch is not severe enough to prevent sexual intercourse. And, after all, ultimately size doesn't matter. Much. Or at least the male Humans In Equestria are told this by mares.
Then again, Equestria is a very polite culture, by our standards.
Now the ladies. Pony mares, even when nude (which is most of the time), preserve their modesty with their tails. Pony tails are long and full, and when held in the normal posture, conceal the mare's vagina from direct view. It's very rude for a stallion to walk over behind a mare and stare to try to see her genitalia. In fact, it's so rude that a stallion doing so too obviously would be observed, commented-upon, and if he made a habit of doing this would lose status for his crude conduct.
Of course, the normal motions of walking move the tail up and down, from side to side. And mares style their tails in various fashions, ranging from just letting it bush out to braiding it to curling it to wearing bows over the base of the tail to Rarity's elaborate spiral. They also move their tails in various manners, ranging from the unselfconscious (Applejack's normal gait) to the slightly-flirtatious (more common) to the very flirtatious (Rarity in full vamping mode) to the downright lewd (never actually shown onscreen, though "Applejewel" would have been approaching this if she hadn't been wearing a long skirt -- there's a limit to what Applejack will do even to make a point through parody).
There is, in short, a whole language of love expressed by Pony mares through their tail styles and motions, and one to which Human men would be mostly blind. We would catch only the most obvious gestures; the nuances would elude us until after long immersion in Equestrian culture. (This, in fact, is one of the things non-Infiltrator Changelings often get wrong, and the Infiltrators need training to master -- and they're just a very derived Kind of the same species as the Ponies).
The problem any xenophiliac Human man faces here is that he doesn't know how to respond appropriately. As I said, it's considered very rude to stare. And still ruder to point out even to a flirtatious mare that she's flashing the male on purpose, even if she is, because Equestria is a rather sexually-conservative society. (Is this hypocritical? Yes, somewhat. Ponies aren't perfect).
Now, here's where it gets complicated. If the male completely ignores a mare who is deliberately flirting with her, she may be offended. What's worse, due to the conventions, she can only express this offense in indirect and preferably passive-aggressive fashion, since otherwise she'd be directly admitting to what she was doing in the first place. This offense can be the greatest if the mare actually likes the male in question, as opposed to being merely flirtatious in general.
One of the big problems facing any Human (male) in Equestria is that he would be utterly lost in this situation. If he stares, he's a lecherous boor. If he doesn't look at all, he's a prig or at least utterly-uninterested in the mare's charms. What's worse, as an alien, some mares would prefer that he was utterly-uninterested! And others wouldn't (after all, Equestria is used to non-Pony sapients).
What would Spike do? Why, he was brought up by and around upper-class Pony mares, and he's imbibed the rules and signals as part of his normal maturation process. Then, he took the advanced course in flirtatiousness and how to respond to it from an expert instructor -- Rarity Belle. Who does like him, often directs her signals quite intentionally at him, and has to some extent deliberately helped him become more aware of the manners of the adult world, because at a minimum she cares about him and wants him to be a social success.
Does your male Human in Equestria have Spike's advantages in this regard? Didn't think so.
What did Charlie Yu, the hapless Human male at the center of An Epistolary Legal Consultation Between Princesses, do?
Well, let's put it in his own words, as heard and narrated by a rather un-flirtatious but nevertheless sophisticated mare coming from the upper classes -- Twilight Sparkle.
He explained that when he had approached other mares in Ponyville, they had seemed nervous and unwilling to engage him in conversation. "Some of them looked at me like I was some kind of freak or monster," he specified, "just because I was looking at them." His eyes shifted, and I noticed that he was now inspecting a part of my anatomy which was not my face.
Her reaction to this response to a signal she was not making to him?
Turning so as to ensure that I was facing Yu directly and standing in the most decent imaginable posture, I pointed out to him that it's considered impolite in our culture for a Pony to stare at another Pony's more private anatomical features, and asked him if matters were different in the land from which he originated.
Yu's defense of his impolite scrutiny?
"But you Ponies should talk! You trot around town naked all the time! How can I help but steal sideways glances as mares walk by?"
Twilight, while a bit of a prude even by Equestrian standards, actually understood his point, and understood the source of his confusion. However, she still found it creepy that he was staring at her.
Human women, on the other hand, have it a bit easier in this regard. They're wearing clothing that completely conceals their private parts, and even parts which a stallion wouldn't find all that private (Pony stallions would find it slightly strange that Human women normally conceal their teats). Pony stallions don't flirt as much with their tails; they flirt with their gazes. About the only offensive thing a Human woman might do would be to call attention to a stallion's genitals in public, and she'd have to be more than normally silly or sexually-obsessed to do that.
There are some traps awaiting a Human man regarding a Pony mare's erogenous zones. I mentioned that her udder is nowhere near as signficant a zone as are a Human woman's breasts. However, there are a parts of a mare's anatomy which are sexually sensitive, of which a Human man might not be aware.
Consider the normal Pony mating posture -- stallion mounting the mare from behind. His hooves are quite likely to touch her shoulders; if he is being at all affectionate toward her (quite likely if they are actually having sex!) his lips and teeth will touch the back of her neck and her withers. The ears are also quite sensitive. All these regions are more intimate to a Pony mare than are the analogous parts on a Human woman. This would be true even of a virgin mare, because her species has evolved nerve clusters there to respond to such caresses with sexual arousal; also, "virgin" does not mean "completely ignorant."
There are also Kind-specific erogenous zones. An Earth Pony's hooves (especially the frog -- the soft place in the center), a Unicorn's horn (which is full of blood vessels and nerve endings) and a Pegasus' wings (especially around their bases) can all afford sexual stimulation if touched in the right ways. Ponies know this. However, Equestrians usually don't speak of this save to lovers or close friends, and a Human in Equestria might not know any of this (and his Equestrian friends might not think to tell him until he accidentally touched one inappropriately).
An extremely intelligent and cosmopolitan Pony, such as Twilight Sparkle, might realize that a Human touching her in one of those places might not realize what he was doing, and simply inform the Human of this fact. Otherwise, one might wind up in an embarrassing situation, especially if one did this in public.
On the Equestrian side, one possible misperception is in mostly cultural. The Equestrians are extremely affectionate toward friends. As depicted directly on the show, nuzzling, bumping, rubbing and leaning against friends is quite common; in really emotional situations, outright hugging is not uncommon. This is more true for mares than for stallions, and more true for same-sex friends than for different-sex friends, but by modern Western standards, Equestrians are physically demonstrative. There is also a biological component to this, as this is all natural Pony affectionate behavior.
The thing to remember is that none of this would normally be considered making a pass at a Pony, unless it was accompanied by some fairly flirtatious language or actions. A Human unaware of this might misinterpret a lot of this behavior, both between Ponies and directed at him or her, as proof of a sexual relationship or as a sexual invitation. The potential for mutual embarrassment here is obvious.
These are some of the things that could go wrong with a romantically-inclined Human in Equestria, and should be considered in stories about such situations.
This is not to say that such romances are impossible. Merely to point out that there are significant biological and cultural differences to consider, which if unaddressed impair the realism of the tale.
My personal favorite was the one where the female HiE had sex with a mare and found it awkward and uncomfortable because the human girl couldn't quite figure out how to get to the mare's vagina while getting off, and then had a drunken fling with a stallion which was not at all awkward or uncomfortable and did not result in any physical harm despite no mention of lube or extreme care.
Unsurprisingly, the writer was male. But creative misunderstandings of female anatomy are kind of par for the course in those kinds of fics.
Huh. Given the tonal nature of the pony language in your Equestria, I wonder how Maud Pie sounds without translation. I imagine it would be something like a one-mare Gregorian chant.
Ahem. In any case, a thorough and insightful breakdown of the cultural and biological difficulties in human/pony relations. And it adds a whole new level of potential awkwardness to Twilight's interactions with the humanoid Flash Sentry.
One wonders if certain words or phrases that are held to be, shall we say, suspect are taboo at all in their culture. Case in point: while we might look askance at pointing out that someone has a rather noticeable problem with strabismus by naming her "Cross-eyes," the locals don't.
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Yes. With some very subtle rhythm shifts from which her family and close friends would be able to read her emotional states. Her parents and sisters in particular have no problem understanding her.
This is actually referenced in Equestria Girls, where Twilight's attempt at dancing looks bizarre almost to Miley Cyrus levels when she does it in Humanoid form. In An Epistolary Legal Consultation Between Princesses, when Twilight realizes some key facts regarding Humanoid sexuality, she thinks back to this and is actually embarrassed because she grasps that her behavior was approaching lewdness (it failed of it mostly because of Twilight's lack of rhythm, which made her look like an uncoordinated child) -- due to the format her embarrassment is subtle, but it's there.
As we've seen in A Canterlot Wedding, Twilight's not much better a dancer in Pony form. Alicorn of Friendship she may be, but she's not good at everything.
How was she trying to do this? Pony mares engaging in the act would probably use their mouths ... their necks are strong and flexible and their lips and tongues long and dextrous by Human standards. Pony hooves are for the most part too large for comfortable penetration (it would be like a human trying to use her whole fist), though they could massage the exterior well enough (the frogs are in particular quite flexible).
Was the stallion drunk too? I can see her being pretty sore if he was as well.
What was she doing, taking the horizontal tour of Equestria?
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Our whole complex of political correctness would be quite alien to Equestria, in particular the parts of it based on self-hatred and hatred of the majority. On the other hand, the Equestrians tend to be less willing to hurt each other's feelings. Derpy's not actually hurt by reference to her strabismus; that's an undeniable physical condition. What hurts her is when Ponies treat her as if she's too stupid to have normal equine emotions, when actually she suffers from mild autism. She's more cunning than highly intelligent, but she has a real problem reading other Ponies' emotional states. Most of the time, though, she doesn't realize that they're treating her as sub-equine, because among adult Ponies, that sort of thing would normally be subtle.
In fact, this gets into another translation problem. The show renders them as much blunter than would a literal translation of their statements. Ponies can be extremely polite and tend to criticize one another in rather indirect fashions, by American or European standards. The show does this because if they were talking to each other like characters in an East Asian noble drama, much of the audience would miss a lot of what they meant. And, of course, since Equestrian culture is alien, their euphemisms are different from ours.
Twilight Sparkle, by the way, is fairly blunt for an aristocratic mare. Celestia likes this about her. So does Applejack.
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I believe she was trying to 69, and found the placement awkward. Which is totally understandable. That can happen with human women of different builds.
Where my problem came in is that, given that a human female and a stallion would have the opposite of the problem you described for a human male and a mare (which the author acknowledged in passing), there's no way that would be less awkward, especially if both parties were drunk (and they were.) That's the sort of thing that requires really careful attention both in preparation and during the activity, and depending on the woman it might never be comfortable. The author pointed out (through the character) that women can stretch to fit a child out, but as I pointed out in the comments, that's not generally seen as a pleasant experience and for many women men towards the top of the human range require care and slow going.
So, I was not buying that this was the physically less awkward of the experiences.
These were her only two experiences, the fic was supposed to be about her becoming pregnant with a baby pony. And if the author couldn't get sex right, I wasn't sticking around to see his idea of pregnancy.
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Now, mind you, it wouldn't be that much of a problem under normal circumstances. Generally, by the point that a romance has progressed to the point of full intercourse, the couple are emotionally involved to such a degree that they are willing to go far out of their way to deal with shape and size problems. And a Pony who got involved with a member of another species would expect there to be such problems, and some of the known species are more alien to Ponykind than are Humans ...
(*... envisioning Rarity surreptitiously researching precisely which Draconic bodily fluids are toxic to Ponies, and to what degree, and making very sure that Twilight didn't know what she was researching ...*)
(incidentally, that's something to which Spike might not know the answer, save as regarded saliva and excretion ... Spike is a virgin. And it's funny enough imagining Rarity asking Spike about even those, especially if this is before she's told him she loves him that way).
But yeah ... if it was random drunken sex, the consequences could range from soreness to serious injury, though most Pony stallions would go far out of their way to avoid hurting anything they perceived as analogous to a mare, if they were aware of the possible problems.
2916030 We're thus stuck dealing with someone who doesn't quite what's being said because she takes things at face value when she shouldn't. Confusing the surface meaning with the real one seems to be the source of a lot of trouble for her.
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Which "her" are we talking about? Twilight Sparkle?
Twilight is actually cosmopolitan and sophisticated by Pony standards; she grew up in the Court, spending a lot of time with the ultimate mistress of social manipulation, Princess Celestia. She understands social nuances just fine; she's just chosen to be an extremely direct and honest mare by her culture's standards. (This is part of the reason Applejack esteems her so greatly).
The real problem is that the modern West and Equestria have different euphemisms and evasions. For instance, most modern Westerners regard Third Worlders as not quite human, something very obvious in the politically-correct attitudes toward the Third World, in which the Third Worlders are treated either as examplars of noble simplicity or as stupid beasts who can predictably be provoked into violence but are not morally-responsible for their violent actions, but never as intelligent, morally-complex people with full freedom to choose their course of action. This is spun as "respect" for other cultures, while it is clearly anything but "respect." This might not be entirely obvious to either an outside observer of our culture, or to a naive person from our own culture who had been reared to take political correctness at face value.
Likewise, the combination of a sexually-conservative culture with whole systems of sexual communication through flirtatious posturing and gazing afford the Equestrians ample opportunity to be critical of one another's actions, even while their strong ideal of Harmony makes it seem morally wrong to be over-critical. Some Equestrians actually manage to live up to the ideals of Harmony (the Mane Six are relatively-good exemplars of the Harmonious virtues); some are just plain slutty, catty or hypocritical. And the ones who are will mostly use all sorts of complex euphemisms to excuse or soften their own bad conduct. These are Equestrian euphemisms regarding Equestrian customs, and a casual Human observer armed with nothing better than a translation spell would probably miss the nuances. Even a Human immersed for years in the culture might miss the subtler nuances.
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Actually, given the futility of Twilight's research in Dragon Quest ("It's hard to believe, but ponies know next to nothing about dragons. Apparently they're too rare and too scary to try to talk to or study!") nopony might know the exact effects there... in fact, if Twilight found out about an actual relationship going on she'd probably be at least scientifically curious about it, even if she'd also not want to even think about Spike in that way.
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Her scientific research questions might be more than a little bit embarrassing for Spike and Rarity. The more so because of Twilight's insatiable curiosity, and the fact that she would probably formulate a long and highly-specific set of questions. Posed in clinical terms, obviously, but still ...
What you wrote about Spike sparked my memory. A story idea of Spike meeting a pony whose his opposite as in being raised by dragons, and in fact, this 'trade' was part of a peace agreement between ponies and dragons.
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"Twilight, I assure you I have never measured that nor do I intend to. It would rather kill the mood, don't you think?"
If Flash Sentry had Princess of all friendship fall for him in just few seconds then Human In Equestria stories can't be that over the top. I didn't really read any of them, though.
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She was in Humanoid form at the time, and I gather the Mirror Portal incorporates some seriously seriously-excellent translation magics. Celestia and Star-Swirl themselves made it, after all.
Humanoid Flash also has the right instincts for courting a smart but shy and rather prudish young Equestrian scholar-mage, even though he never knew that was what she was. He was honorable, kind, truly friendly and helpful, and not at all sexually-pushy. It says something that Sunset Shimmer, who comes from a similar background to Twilight's but is less scrupulous and more emotionally-volatile, regretted her exploitative treatment of him after spending at least some months dating him. He may be bland, but he's a genuinely good guy. Compare to the typical Human in Equestria.
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LOL!!!
Exactly ...
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That sounds like an interesting tale.
I agreed with the opening paragraph, but after that, the point you were trying to make just got lost in your headcanon dump.
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I was showing a possible Equestrian culture and Pony biology, and how it might affect Humans interacting romantically with Ponies. You're free to use your headcanons instead. Most of the biological differences are based either on real equine anatomy and sensoria, or their direct portrayal in canon.
Quite the set of headcanon you've got here. Thank you for the look into it. Definitely some thought-provoking ideas.
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I'm trying to present more than my headcanon, but a structure which other writers can also use when writing Human in Equestria stories. Which is to say, don't treat it as wish-fulfillment, treat it as Xenofictional Contact.
What do I mean by "xenofictional contact?" I mean that the author should recognize that the Ponies are an alien race with a different biology and set of customs than Western Humans, and that these differences need to be explored in any love story in terms of how they might block or facilitate the love growing between the characters.
It actually doesn't matter what your headcanon is, unless it's "the Ponies are exactly like us," which is very improbable even in vanilla-canon (the show depicts numerous ways in which the Ponies are not just like us, ranging from a division into Three (or more) Kinds with different capabilities to the possession of a monarchial and aristocratic culture containing features of both an idealized 19th century European aristocracy and an East Asian Empire.
As I said, these ideas work (with appropriate modifications) for different headcanons (such as the Ponies being polygynous with stallion dearths). Most of the ideas I presented are either supported by show canon, or by equine biology. The ones which aren't could be replaced with other ones.
The important thing is to take the Ponies seriously as their own species, rather than simply looking at them as colorful cuddle-objects.
I thought about whether I should reply to this for nearly a day, but decided to respond:
As you may or may not know, I have a group called the Skeptics’ Guide to Equestria. We have a weekly discussion. The thing is that the discussion-topics did not attract much discussion. I figured that controversy would attract discussion. I sought controversy and now, as in during this time, engage in investigative journalism.
The point is that I came upon material relating to the cruelty of forcing the mentally deficient to remain virgins all of their lives versus the problem of protecting mentally deficient from sexual exploitation. When I write the article, I shall give you a PM. It will be part of a whole controversial series.
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I agree that this is cruel. It's also, probably, one of the last remnants of the Progressive Eugenics movement, in its original motivation, and since then with some social agencies has become fixed policy, largely due to a combination of inertia and disgust on the part of the people running the programs toward their charges. It's also been applied toward people with disabilities other than feeble-mindedness, sometimes ones which have absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
I know which story you're referencing, and it might be relevant to note that I don't consider Derpy Hooves mentally-retarded, but rather mildly autistic.
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I like the autistic Miss Derpalina Ditzy Doo Whooves (when I call her that, every pony knows whom I mean) from DDDDD who is very similar to the 1 in An Epistolary Legal Consultation Between Princesses. I would would like the legal bar reduced to mentally disabled being allowed to consent, but only if they are at their most lucid.
The post will cover the ethics of sterilization. If we let the mentally disabled consent to sex, we need some for of contraception, but we need checks and balances.
To top it all off, I found a man who has sex with nonverbal mentally disable children because they cannot tell him. They often resist, but he overpowers them. I believe that we all agree that this is extreme abuse.
Somewhere between the mentally retarded adult man with an IQ of 68 (the legal definition of mentally retarded is beneath 70) begging to have sex at least once before he dies and the nonverbal child trying to fight off an adult is where we should draw the line; but ¿precisely where in that space? ¡I should finally get a lively discussion going!
When the article is ready, I shall PM you.
I'd love to hear more about your ideas on the Equestrian tongue through human ears. I'm getting a bit of an Inscrutable Equine vibe off this concept. I'm reminded of Emperor Hirohito who, when faced with the fact that his military leaders were squabbling while the country was firebombed into oblivion decided to take decisive action and write a gentle haiku that subtly suggested that hey, this war thing is maybe kinda bad guys. Seems like maybe some people might be getting hurt .
Though I imagine that Celestia is probably less useless. Though it'd be an interesting AU concept: In an Equestria without Discord, Celestia and Luna were snapped up by the Unicorn nobility and were isolated, pampered and mollycoddled so much that they the incredibly meek, humble and useless immortal alicorns who technically control Equestria. Twilight's probably a eunuch or something.
2916296 The "her" I'm talking about is the subject of the conversation the Princesses are having: Derpy Hooves. It seems to me that the colour spectrum humans see isn't the only spectrum that Ponies have trouble with. It seems that the the autism spectrum has yet to become recognized there,,,thus the subtle digs at her intellect that she doesn't quite understand. While it's sort of obvious that a frustrated comment about how certain things are a real mystery was actually less blatantly a dig at her intelligence, the meaning is there.
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Oh, okay ...
... Historically, autism wasn't recognized as a real and distinct condition from mental retardation or schizophrenia in the West until the late 1960's. Equestria is roughly at a 1950's level of medical technology. Consequently, they are just beginning to speculate about the possibilities of it being a specific condition.
Derpy's a mild, high-functioning autistic. She's extremely nice, and her inability to properly model the behavior of others leads her to assume that anypony who acts superficially nice to her is a genuine friend; she also doesn't grasp very well that even a genuine friend can have a mistaken notion of how to be nice to her. This has led to her often being tlaken advantage of by others; and some of the Ponies who are her friends treat her very poorly (the friends who really do treat her well are Rainbow Dash, Golden Harvest -- and, recently, Time Turner and Princess Luna.
Derpy is also a "natural fighter." It's a good thing that she's normally nice, because -- unlike most Ponies -- she has no problem using lethal force when called for, and she thinks quite clearly and rapidly when it comes to combat situations. This side of her is rarely seen by other Ponies for obvious reasons: she's most likely to demonstrate it toward predators of the Everfree when she's carrying out dangerous courier missions, though a whole squad of Changeling Warriors who made the mistake of threatening her children during the invasion of Canterlot also got to witness her fighting skills -- briefly. After her role in this incident was reported, Princess Luna took her (figuratively) under her wing, decided to make her a special courier for the Night Watch, and trained her how to really fight well.
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You are, and you did a good job of that, and I should have commented on that as well. Though I do stand by my comment that the headcanon embedded inside of it was cool too.
Premises like xenofictional contact hit my soft spot: I love stories that transport us into different worlds.
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My feeling is actually that Twilight Sparkle has Aspergers', and understands social nuance because she is a genius who has studied it extensively, not because she has the normal instinctive knowledge that a normal pony raised in her circumstances would have. She is slightly more monotone than the average pony (though nowhere near Maud Pie, who in my eyes is a high-functioning, highly intelligent autistic, kind of like a pony Temple Grandin), significantly blunter than the average pony, and solves problems by very, very heavy reliance on reference materials. Thus, why Celestia sent her to Ponyville to explicitly study friendship; most ponies just understand friendship, pretty normally, but may get tripped up by misunderstandings between what they think friendship should mean and what others do, or what they think a friend is thinking. Twilight can understand meta-levels and can perform sophisticated empathic analyses (ie, "Why did so and so react this way? Well, logically speaking, if we analyze it from their perspective, blah blah blah..." rather than assuming that they'd do what she'd do, because she knows for a fact very few ponies will ever just do what she'd do.)
The reason I think this is that Twilight's reactions (consulting a book on sleepovers to figure out the best way to have a sleepover, for instance) totally reminds me of myself, and this is how I operate. Because I don't instinctively understand people, I studied psychology (pretty much my entire life... I started reading about psychology when I was like 8 or something), so that I could use my intelligence to substitute for what my brain can't just naturally do with a social coprocessor like most people have. Twilight has a much greater love for tradition and the Proper Way To Do Things than I do, but Twilight was raised in a monarchy by upper middle class minor gentility and I was raised in a democracy by hippies, so that may be our cultures rather than our natures. :-) I'd get along with Discord a lot better than Twilight does but actually I have very little tolerance for my own life being disrupted by chaotic events... it's just, I'm used to it because I have four kids. :-)
So I'm not sure I agree that Twilight understands all the nuance but chooses to be blunt. I think Twilight does not understand the nuances in real time -- she perceives them later, after having a chance to analyze them -- and thus cannot produce them in real time, so she comes across as blunter and flatter than the average pony does. (She was, by pony standards, incredibly rude to most of the ponies who are now her best friends in the series premiere, because she was so focused on solving the problem that she had no mental energy to devote to being kind or nice. They put up with it because she was coming from the Princess, and then later because she had ideas about how to solve a problem that terrified everyone and was willing to put them into action. Ponies will rally behind anyone who seems to know what they're doing in a crisis; they're herd animals.) Her friends know this about her, the way they know that Rainbow Dash is a blowhard and Rarity is overly dramatic and Pinkie doesn't know when to leave well enough alone, and they forgive her because they know the emotions are in there, Twilight just doesn't express them through speech as fluidly as other ponies.
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That makes a lot of sense -- Twilight's not naturally gifted in dealing with others, but her great overall intellect allows her to work around her natural limitations. And, because she is so intelligent, in the end she comes up with a theoretical understanding of friendship which is broader and deeper -- though more difficult for her to apply at least at first -- than that of more normal Ponies.
As for Maud, in my fanon she is Fortitude, which essentially includes having her Earth Pony magic generate what amounts to a telekinetic strength assist / defensive force field around her whole body, but especially concentrating on her hooves -- all the rock-farming Ponies (even the more apparently delicate ones such as Marble and Limestone) have a (far weaker) version of this, which is why they can lift and break boulders with minimal tools or none at all.
But in Maud's case, this extends to her mind and spirit as well. No form of torture, save harming her loved ones, can really work on her: even if one could overcome her immense strength and toughness to inflict meaningful pain, or distress her in some other fashion, she would be merely annoyed and perhaps angry, rather than broken or humiliated. This is because she is the Guardian of Paradise: she was genengineered by a godlike AI to stand firm against serious foes who might attack Claire or Pinkie.
A side effect of this is Maud's extremely flat emotional affect. She actually feels emotions, but she is imperturbable by normal Pony standards, and she is very unexpressive. Her family can read her like a book, and her best friends, Genie Lean and her brother Trender Lean (my OC's) have learned to understand her over years of knowing her), but most outsiders are utterly-baffled and even repelled by her apparent utter calm. Many imagine her entirely lacking in emotion, which is quite untrue.
It's good that Maud is not easily upset. She is physically stronger and tougher than most Alicorns -- in one incident to which I allude, when a full-sized Shadowdrake (a Dragon whose powers had been enhanced by a NIght Shadow) attacked and killed her maternal grandfather, she fought it bare-hoofed and eventually broke its neck with a kick to the jaw.
This is perhaps the only instance as of YOH 1505 in which she's ever gone full-on berserk, and it shows how terrifying her strength would be if it were not governed by an incredibly cool intelligence employing a strong moral code. She could kill an ordinary Pony without even making an effort, or level a town in a matter of minutes, and nothing short of an Alicorn or a serious military mobilization could hope to stop her. Few realize this, because she almost never gets visibly angry.
But yes: by normal Pony standards, Maud is in consequence essentially a very high-functioning autistic. And this too is because she's truly brilliant: smart enough that she's almost up there with Twilight Sparkle, but with a much narrower sphere of interests.
Which gives her a tremendous advantage over normal Ponies in dealing with those with biology or culture less familiar to Ponykind. It must have helped in this regard that she cared for Spike, who while raised Pony, does not think in an entirely equine fashion.
It helps that Twilight is extremely honest with herself (which is probably one of the several reasons Applejack likes her so much even from the beginning). This lets her see her own intellectual flaws, and deliberately think in ways that compensate for them. (She figured out what was wrong with her approach to Pinkie Pie in a matter of a week or so at most, in "Feeling Pinkie Keen" -- and admitting that one can't yet solve a problem instead of going for a comfortable false solution is not the easiest thing for someone used to being able to solve all problems quickly to accomplish).
That's an extremely good point. And later, of course, Twilight had proven herself to them to be intelligent, courageous, loyal and honorable; a thoroughly admirable Pony even if a rather odd one.
One of the excellent aspects of the show in general is that it shows that for friendship to work one must forgive one's friends their flaws. Each of the Mane Six has something annoying about her (Twilight's single-minded focus on the current problem, Rainbow's boasting, Applejack's pride, Pinkie's cluelessness, Fluttershy's lack of directness and Rarity's melodrama), but they all love each other enough to tolerate their friends' flaws.
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Man, can we get some quantifiers on this? Your Maud is starting to sound kinda OP. Elements of Harmony? Cannon Fodder! Celestia and Luna? Small Fry! Send in Maud, who apparently nothing can hurt!
So, do clubs and swords bounce off her hide? Small-arms fire? Artillery shells? Nukes? How does she handle being immersed in an aquatic environment, or being deprived of air for prolonged periods? Frankly, at this point, Maud is more terrifying than most of foes the an 6 have faced.
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Note of what she was capable in canon. Hurling a boulder half a mile, and punching with enough force to rip apart solid rock. Heck, she clumsily-flew, Cannonball style, to save her sister. She basically has the power set of the original Schuster and Siegel Superman.
(You're still looking for comments on old essays, right?)
One thing that I'd expect, with so many other sapient species in Equestria's world, is that ponies would be less likely to be xenophiliacs. The ones who are don't give birth, unless they've got access to strong transformation effects. So...
Scenario 1) Transformation effects are common. Interspecies children are common. Some integration of pony and nonpony species that wouldn't happen in other scenarios. Anon's okay, for a freaky biped.
Scenario 2) Transformation effects are rare and magically difficult. Magically-powerful sapients become really attractive (hello, Discord, yes I would like to be the mother and/or father of a race of super-ponies that will revere me in their legends), but magically-weak sapients do not (hello, Anon, have you figured out how to levitate things yet? No? Pity.)
Scenario 3) Transformation effects are impossible. There are certainly attractions that don't help with breeding, like homosexuality, and that may be a good model to base this on. It's unlikely that Anon's irresistible to more than one of them.
Another thing to keep in mind is cutie marks. This is a huge aspect of pony culture, and it would have an enormous effect on romances. They're not just minor/major superpowers that our hapless human protagonist does not have, they're highly visible superpowers. You can tell just from looking at someone approximately what personality they have or what they like to do. In Equestrias where some marks clearly signify more important talents than others - say, a world where Twilight's mark is a symbol of massive magical potential and everyone can tell that at a glance - you have stallions and mares who are clearly more attractive as life partners due to their cutie marks. Those stallions/mares can do more to help you with physical problems, but are also clear indicators of your social status: a way of saying "I got a husband/wife with a talent in Talents, what about you?" And then you have Anon, with no indicator of his social status, being pursued mainly by the type of xenophiles who aren't socially-adjusted enough to care about stuff like that. In Equestrias where you can't completely understand a mark at a glance, you're still going to have ponies falling in love with other ponies with similar or complementary marks. Mr/Mrs Cake or Shining Armor/Cadence are good examples from the show. A pony who could help you with your own mark would be someone who you could do what you loved with, which means you'd have more positive experiences with them in general. They'd be a major factor in romantic attractiveness, even if not in physical attractiveness (and, at least for humans, romantic attractiveness does make some people seem more physically attractive).
Both human and pony happiness are partially determined by having positive friendships and relationships, but there's differences in the other determinants. Pony happiness seems dependent on doing things associated with their cutie marks, while human happiness seems to be strongly tied to genetics and a bunch of unknowns.
I can imagine a scenario like the following:
Anon is down in the dumps over being in Ponyville.
Twilight asks him out.
Anon accepts. He enjoys his relationship for a while, but the joy slowly fades to a more normal level.
Nopony hires Anon because he doesn't have a cutie mark. How could they know how good he is at what they're hiring for?
Anon becomes a bored househusband. He doesn't have the social network that actual housewives form, because he's a weird biped from another dimension. He can't form his own business selling computers or anything because advanced technology is too complex for one man to rebuild from scratch. He can try other businesses, but ponies are more likely to buy from a business owner with a cutie mark.
Anon realizes he'll make even less impact here than Earth, because he has no access to the level of tech he's used to and no magic.
Anon's sadness massively frustrates Twilight and causes friction in their marriage. If he's so sad, why doesn't he go do what his cutie mark is telling him - oh, wait. It turns out that it's a pain in the ass to be with someone who's miserable all the time, even if you once liked them.
Divorce.
Anon is now a guy who got dumped by Princess Twilight Sparkle, the Princess of Friendship. He's suffering from massive stigma. How bad must he be if Twilight Sparkle couldn't stay with him? The breakup is awkward even if it's clean. The friends he's made in Ponyville are closer to Twilight, and they're all sort of weird around him. And he's even more depressed now.
The End
This was a very fascinating essay. However, I have one question: where did you get the idea of horns, hooves, and wings being erogenous zones? Is it because those are the parts they use to channel magic?
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High concentrations of nerve tissues. The same reason Human hands are erogenous zones.
4178804 Got it.
This is honestly something I wish more thought was put into, especially the part about language. Very rarely have I seen a Human In Equestria/Pony On Earth fic where some kind of language barrier is addressed.
Question: How aware are Twilight, Sunset, and any other hypothetical mirror travelers of the differences between human and equine linguistic patterns? There's obviously some kind of translation effect at work to turn the ideas normally expressed by neighs and whinnies into hoots and grunts, but how cognizant are they of the sudden drop in information density and other distinguishing factors beyond the library of available phonemes?
I'm hashing out an HiE story without convenient ape-to-horse translation, and your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!