Dehumanizing Ponies, Part Five - Alicorns · 5:36pm Jan 24th, 2014
Let's talk about the elephant in the room.
One of the primary issues with discussing alicorns is that what we've been given is inconsistant. Celestia and Luna seem to be physical gods, considering that they incarnate day and night respectively, Luna can go a-dreamwalking, and Celestia can take an energy beam that demolishes buildings without getting so much as scratched (ignore Canterlot wedding here because gah). Plus, they're immortal. Even if you don't take the gods angle they're definitely playing by a different set of rules than everyone else.
Cadence and Twilight don't seem to quite have that.
We know that alicorns are made, not born (Cadence was a pegasus, Twilight a unicorn), so again it's not a destined-to-be-from-birth sort of thing. There's two reasonable explanations. One is that alicornization itself is not the end of the pony 'evolutionary' line (consisting of Cutie Mark -> Alicorn, both seeming to require action and understanding), and alicorns can achieve another state of understanding and transcend to incarnating part of the universe. The other is that whatever Luna and Celestia are makes them alicorns by definition (e.g., if they're pony gods, then of course they're alicorns because anything else would be just silly).
The third is that Cadence and Twilight actually are the same as Celestia and Luna (absurdly powerful, immortal, etc), and they simply haven't manifested it yet since they're effectively newborns.
Regardless of the nature of alicorns, we know a few things. They're just better. I don't mean this in a moral sense, I mean they have the magic of all three races, and they have it turned up to ten or eleven. Recall Cadence was a pegasus, but she was able to hold off Sombra by herself, shielding an entire city from constant attack, for several days on end. Without sleep. Presumably both she and Twilight have Earth Pony level strength now, too. We also know that, background-alicorns aside, they tend to be immediately elevated to rulership in title if not in property.
And this only makes sense. Since the criterion for becoming an alicorn is so stringent they are by definition most suited to rule. Ponies are biologically casted, and there are not three castes but four, with the alicorns at the top. Presumably, deference to an alicorn would be built into their biology at the same level as herd-grouping and cutie-mark-seeking. But, recall the (lack of) dominance hierarchy again, that doesn't mean they have the ability to instantly dictate everything.
However it does give the ponies something unique. A very obvious mark of who is worthwhile as a leader. You see the Celestial Empire / New Lunar Republic and the occasional fic introducing democracy! but the fact is that the idea of a democracy or republic would probably horrify them. Oh, it's probably fine for the unimportant and low-level stuff, but as a governmental structure? How could a unicorn properly, viscerally understand a pegasus community's needs, let alone argue about them and know what was most important, and what could be negotiated on? No, an alicorn, having the insight into all three tribes, is the only proper ruler for ponies.
Plus, Celestia is immortal. In fact, she's the benevolent immortal ruler that has been suggested as the 'best' form of government. We don't see her do much in the show (again grr) but she's managed to keep ponies stable and thriving for over a thousand years, against threats like dragons, gryphons, ahuizotls, hydras...Discords, Sombras, and who knows what other things. With or without Luna, she has done something pretty much unequalled by humans - a single, stable government lasting over a thousand years. Even our long-runners (Rome, Kush, Venice) underwent significant change in those times. So the preponderance of evidence is that she's the vastly preferred option, even without biological imperatives.
The immortal alicorn does something else too - it removes the need for religion. Whether you classify Luna and Tia as actual gods, they are godlike to regular ponies. Not just from the perspective of class, but from the perspective of deeds as well. And they're always there. The fact that they literally move the sun and the moon is just icing on the cake. No need to worship a god when you have Celestia and Luna around(oh and by the way you effectively control all of nature). Crisis of faith? Go to court and ask your question. Not that I'm suggesting all ponies worship Luna and Tia (although I expect some do), but that the sorts of driving questions and needs that result in religion are answered or defused by their presence.
A lot of people think that Celestia insists on giving alicorns the rank of princess so ponies don't call them goddesses instead.
Why? Seriously, why does everyone have a problem with this? Immortal doesn't equal indestructible, so the fact that everyone gets all pissed off about Celestia getting zapped doesn't make sense to me.
1753308
Because it was
poorincomprehensibly shitty writing.The same narrative purpose would have been served if she'd had an extended one-on-one clash with Chrysalis while telling them to get the elements, and was forced to yield after they were captured.
I think that there are three levels of alicorns.
First, they need to achieve a certain level of magical talent, in order to get close to breaking the border between pony and alicorn.
This is not limited to one race's magic and can be heavily influenced by Cutie Marks.
Examples: Twilight S1, Trixie, Starswirl, Sombra, (Pegasus) Cadence.
Secondly, they need to understand a concept physically, in order to obtain a connection with it.
Examples are: (Alicorn) Cadence, (Alicorn) Twilight, Luna S1.
Thirdly, they must start to metaphysically become what they connected to, to finally represent it.
They become living avatars of ideas, phenomena and objects.
Examples are: Celestia, Luna S2, Discord.
The scary question is, who controls the Alicorns?
1753323
At the same time, they had to set it up so the power of love could come in and conquer everything unequivocally , so I can kinda sorta forgive that. If anything, we just fluff it as love being literally a great force in the world like gravity or electromagnetism, and it can cast down both alicorns and those who have stolen enough power to become alicorn-like. Remember Chrysalis was actually pretty surprised to beat Celestia; even she didn't understand the true power of the love she'd stolen.
But yeah, all that hoop-jumping is mostly just to avoid the fact that Celestia got Worfed hard.
There is another option for why Celestia and Luna are different from Cadence and Twilight. It could be that the "high" alicorns have a pact,deal,bond,ect. with their repective heavenly body and can borrow it's power. It would also explain why they have variable power levels. Nightmare Moon and little Luna from s1e2 are also examples of different power levels.
1753365 That's pretty much what I'm talking about; they establish right from the get-go that friendship is one of the most powerful forces in Equestria, so why is it a problem for love to be strong enough to defeat even Celestia? It makes sense to me, so I just can't figure out why nobody else is willing to accept that as an explanation.
1753440
This isn't really the forum for this particular debate, but the issue is not and never has been that someone beat Celestia, it was that the writing and presentation was awful. Just like it is with basically everything to do with Rarity.
I believe word of Faust is that Celestia and Luna are just freakingly powerful, but not actually gods. It's not something I fret too much about, though; it's not like I would avoid reading a fic just because the author has a different idea about the power level of alicorns.
I myself prefer Celestia and Luna closer to the power level of mortal ponies, to the point where a small group of exceptional individuals - or even a single particularly powerful enemy - could defeat them, and Cadance and Twilight "merely" at roughly the power level of single, though gifted, unicorns. That power level still makes all alicorns exceptional, very tough to defeat (specially given that martial tech seems to be undeveloped in Equestria), while allowing them to potentially experience adventures with non-alicorns without completely dominating the action through sheer power gap.
I believe the power level gap - both mystical and political - is, in good part, responsible for Celestia (and Luna) having relatively little screen time. That, and Celestia's "flawless" personality; a character without flaws tends to be boring, and Celestia either does not have flaws, or (what I actually believe) she hides her flaws, even from Twilight, for the sake of ruling.
1753493 I keep seeing people saying they don't like that scene, but never why they dislike it, so I'll have to take your word on that one. Still, if you don't want to talk about it here, I'll respect that. You have my apologies for derailing the comments.
One explanation of canterlot wedding Ive heard that I like is that Celestia could have easilly beaten chrysalis if she wasnt afraid of the collateral damage she'd cause from using too much power right in the middle of a packed throne room.
Its like having a giant sword for so long that you never need to worry about anyone even daring to mess with you because of how intimidating it is. Then you find yourself ambushed in the middle of a packed crowd by someone with a dagger and you realize you've neglected training yourself in alternative forms of combat.
1753537
Even I don't say she's flawless (albeit, probably closer than most ponies), but her struggles are going to be far more arcane than those of more 'ordinary' ponies. I do think we could get an episode or two out of them (especially if it was back during their Sombra-bustin', Discord-stonin' days) but they wouldn't be a very good subject for a whole show.
By "Cadance was a Pegasus" I assume you mean the Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell book, if we accept the chapter books as canon.
Where, then, do we place the Hearth's Warming story about unicorns raising the sun? Is it allegory and pure myth, or did Celestia and Luna arise after those (mytho-historical) events? If there's truth to the legend then it's possible Celestia and Luna were also "made" like Cadance and Twilight (having been born non-alicorns), or ascended spontaneously, or by some other method.
Here's another curious thought: if we accept the trading cards as canon, Cadance is officially the seventh Element bearer - Element of Love. We know as well that Celestia and Luna also bore the Elements at one time. That means both known "modern" alicorns came from the ranks of Element bearers, and possibly all of them. It's a small sample size, true, but what a coincidence! Also makes the Word of God twitter comment that "Twilight won't outlive her friends" very interesting.
1753323
1753308
There's always the option that Celestia doesn't have a complete linear scale of godlike powers to choose from. Suppose she has Energy Beam Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, and Level 1,000,000. Put another way: she has Pistol, Rifle, Grenade, and Theatre-level Strategic Nuke, but nothing in between. Under this assumption she could have easily and effortlessly defeated Chrysalis by using her maximum power, albeit with the side effect of reducing Canterlot to a glassed crater. Short of that she was reduced to using her slightly-greater-than mortal powers, which a temporarily-upgunned Chrysalis was able to match, if barely.
Let's talk about another elephant in the room - male alicorns. Is there a biological reason why stallions cannot become alicorns? Or is it a consequence of Equestrian social system, which allows only for alpha females to get into positions with ascension potential?
There are three words that demonstrate just how superior Celestia is compared to common citizens, and how accepting the general population is of this state of affairs. We would probably throw a fit if our politicians used a similar address in public. These words appear in almost every fic, to the point where they have become meaningless, their social implications lost in the process. These three words? My little pony.
1753601
To be honest, I think it would be better for everyone if such events didn't appear on screen. I don't want to sound overly pessimistic, but existing show episodes tend of fail in one way or another whenever they try to do something 'global' or 'epic' instead of just telling a story of six friends. Various excuses may include: small budget, time constraints, a fear of creating something the target audience wouldn't understand or necessity to insert an ad for another canon breaking toy monstrosity.
1753777
It would make sense looking at the herd dynamic. Males just wouldn't be wired for it on the whole.
As I said, alicorns are just better. We resent that sort of implication because we're forward-thinking individuals that accept that everyone is created equal. Which is true for humans. Not true for ponies.
For the first time since reading your stuff it does not invoke dreams of chronic and sustained cruelty in me :3 I really gotta archive that. Not everything is written in stone from what you've said, but this one seems to be impossible to argue about.
1753601
I didn't mean that Celestia is necessarily flawless (which is why I used quotes around the word), though I guess I wasn't clear.
Rather, Celestia is presented as flawless. Which means that either she is actually flawless, or else she is just very good at hiding her flaws.
My own belief is that she is just very good at hiding her flaws, something that adults can get and relate to while small kids - the intended show audience - can remain blissfully oblivious to while latching to her supposedly flawless image.
And, if this is the case, I don't see much hope for Celestia getting more screen time, apart from just serving as a loving (but mostly passive) mentor or in flashbacks. She is too powerful to use in stories involving other ponies when the conflict can be solved by power (and, thanks to her knowledge and influence, even in most cases where it can't be solved by power alone), and actually dropping her flawless "mask" - which would make for interesting stories - could alienate the small kids part of the audience.
1753777
Why do you dislike ponies calling other ponies, little ponies?
Shit's adorbs, nigga.
Celestia's stable reign also seems to have come with the often-theorized downside of the oft-theorized ideal ruler--slow change, stagnation, a lack of growth. Over the past thousand years, the Equestrian language seems to have changed as much as English has in the last three or four hundred. Technology also seems to move slowly, though we can't tell how slowly.
1754326
You know, looking at it that way actually erases some of the issues I have with "a thousand years" popping up all the time. I've ranted to you often enough about those! But with Celestia as ruler, pony society really could be slower changing than human society over such a time period.
It still doesn't fix my issue with a certain story that had all a tech still hanging around, not rusted into dust after ten thousand years, but it does take the edges off some of the quibbles I've had with the show itself and the thousand years.
(P.S. still no idea howthefrick half this site works... Sorry if I keep editing my comment trying to fix things.)
1754326
Yeah. Stable tends to also equal lack of the need to change.
Chaos is not evil, it's merely change. Without a bit of chaos, you don't have an urge to make something new. Unless someone goes around hosting invention conventions or something.
1754516
Actually, invention comes from infrastructure and excess, both of which are maximized in a stable, peaceful realm. Equestria is probably in a (relative) technological boom - it's more likely cutie marks that retard progress. Celestia might cause a slowdown of cultural change, but it's not likely, since culture is rarely top-down.
1753365
She stole it from an extremely-powerful pony, too -- Shining Armor -- and he was feeling it for an Alicorn.
She has a heck of a lot of implicit flaws, even though she's a very good being. Her principal flaw, I think, is an attraction to winning through social manipulation for its own sweet sake, rather than because it's often a good strategy. This often leads her to choose unnecessarily indirect courses of action.
Luna has the opposite flaw -- she's terrible at social manipulation, and hence tends to try to solve her problems directly. Too directly.
Which is why the sisters very much need each other.
1753590
The most obvious way Celestia could have won, and rapidly, would have been if she had unleashed a spray of omnidirectional plasma. This would have killed Chrysalis rather quickly. It also would have killed everyone in the Great Hall, including most of her friends, and destroyed her own palace. It's clear why Celestia thought this a bad strategy.
1753777
Yep. Even absolute monarchs in Earthly history would think twice before using that mode of address -- it's considerably more condescending than "my subjects." Celestia is pretty much worshiped as a goddess in Equestria, deny it or for that matter try to prevent it as she will.
1754326
I think there's culutral, social and technological change in Equestria, but I think it has mostly proceeded about about 1/2 to 1/4 the rate of equivalent change in our history. And yes, one likely reason for this is rule by a goddess-queen.
Mind you, I think the alternatives would have been worse. The Ponies are menaced by far direr threats than anything in our world, and absent Celestia would probably have become the slaves -- or livestock -- of other races.
1753732
I think it's likely that all the Mane Six are baby Alicorns. Yes, even the two Earth Ponies.
1754523 1754326
Considering both these points. With the introduction of 2 new princesses, and the re-introduction of an old one, Equestria in likely on the verge of a new renaissance. Fresh perspectives balanced by learned wisdom is definitely a recipe for positive change.
1754523
That reminds me, do you understand how the "hoofboard" in that pic works?
1755037
Twilight especially. Nerd.
1755309
Seems to be some sort of robust double touchpad type interface.
Hey, just saying I've highly enjoyed your collected thoughts. Keep analysing. :)
1753439 I guess that if each type (Earth, Pegasus, Unicorn) gives some amount of magic power, then having multiple of them gives two or three times that energy. If Cadence has 2x (pegasus + unicorn), and Celestia has 3x (that + earth pony), maybe 2x is not enough for doing what Celestia can do. And/or Celestia knows a forbidden spell for immortality or size etc.
The multiplied amount of power probably can be used by alicorns either way each time, either for unicorn magic, or for flight, or something aura-based, or divide their power how they want... just perhaps
PS: how Twilight's wings got created. Maybe Celestia fused another pony essence into her?..
Also, what is that that's left if a pony loses her only power (according to S2E1, probably earth pony without aura power) That pony might still be magical, though, because...it's unlikely that something will be not magical at all where everything is based on magical laws.
That ability to hold things in hooves is probably also maintained by some magical process.
And, that theory again that I've used already... that a pony is a creature that is primarily entirely made of magic, and what we see is a projection, or an avatar (like with Discord) that's maintained by their primary magic. Even when an avatar is damaged, that magic can repair it. And since alicorns' essence possesses more magical energy than it does by default (simple pony), they are harder to defeat. That can also explain ponies' shape, larger eyes... because most of their body functions may be performed outside physical space. Including mind, and some of perception... Or these spaces are inseparable and are one complicated extended space, then why some laws usually work as we know them? Or why is it so hard to understand the nature of that space better?
Or even if they are physical characters (so that crossover stories theories work), then they need to have something magical that binds them to their magic, so that magic recognizes what to be bound to.
PS2. For example, let's assume there are 3 spaces. One is magical pattern space, second is magical particles space, third is physical space. Magical pattern space contains processes (minds) that control both ponies and spells they casted, and are unique to each caster. When a pony thinks, she can create a set of particles in that second space. It's controlled by that same mind. These particles can flow, bind matter to themselves, change that matter's attributes (color/density/...whatever), rearrange their placement. Those actions used the energy that's shared among all processes currently controlled by that mind. Then, when the spell is finished, they get deallocated. Probably, another set of those particles works constantly and sends and receives information from the body. A pony's usual feeding only affects the physical body, the other parts operate independently on magical energy. (Also then, it makes sense that magical things like Alicorn Amulet and Elements have their own minds)
I always kind of envisioned the "religious" relationship between the princesses and their little ponies as more veneration than worship, more akin to animism (especially Shinto) or cultures where one's ancestors are invoked. You wouldn't have churches or temples dedicated to Celestia since as you say if you had to appeal to them you would just schedule an appointment at Canterlot Castle. I imagine that locations with historic significance to the sisters would have the same kind of status as inns across New England that boast that "George Washington Slept Here". I've always viewed the alicorns as goddesses in the Greek mythological mold.
With regards to the fight in "A Canterlot Wedding", I think it would have been better if Chrysalis had won by subterfuge. Have her suddenly assume the form of a tearful Twilight
, then strike as Celestia nearly throws her neck out of joint and sets the curtains on fire averting her solar destructo beam. A half second's animation and I don't think even little kids would have trouble grokking what had happened. But that's just me, and "How I would have done it." isn't really a solid basis for critique. 
One interesting concept to consider with the Alicorns, is they seem to have not just supercharged versions of each Tribe's magic, but lack ALL of the weaknesses.
As the three tribes all have their own strengths and weaknesses that counterbalance each other, in an Alicorn those powers do the same thing, effectively negativing the weaknesses.
The only real weakness we've seen in an Alicorn is to beings of a higher tier, like a full power Lord Tirek or Discord.
In a battle or combat, an Alicorn well trained in combat would be a NIGHTMARE to fight (which is kinda shown in the comics where Celestia managed to curbstomp the entire Changeling army by herself).