Dehumanizing Ponies, Part Six - A Fantastical World · 6:11pm Jan 26th, 2014
How much of our culture and our imagination has to do with the fantastical and the monstrous? How much of it has to do with the yearning for the knowledge of whether there's somebody else out there?
Ponies don't need that. The world they live in has many other sentient races. It has monsters and wonders aplenty - "to satisfy appetites both subtle and gross," to quote Discord Q. Daring Do isn't inventing stories, she's writing memoirs. Twilight doesn't need to read adventure fantasy, she's living it.
They probably won't have nearly the curiosity drive we have. Partly because the world is so dangerous, and partly because there are all these fantastical elements that would immediately satisfy that sort of urge. There's also the fact that they're herbivores, not predators, so their basic mindset is defensive rather than offensive (and thus reaching-out). Of course they'd have fictional literature! But it probably wouldn't be nearly as frontier- or unknown-oriented as ours is. What would it be? Well, Twilight's a nerd but note how full of ponies that Starswirl the Bearded Travelling Museum was. And Ponyville isn't exactly the biggest town. I suspect that they have a far greater focus on history and culture, as well as taking joy in simple tasks. Far more of their culture would center around the celebration of daily life and what we would consider the mundane.
And why not? When a hydra or Ursa Minor (or even Major) can come rampaging through town, what you're going to treasure is the good days, of bountiful harvests and peaceful, quiet work. On the flip side, they'll also have a heck of a lot more in the way of epic heroes, since they do have monsters to defeat, meaning that they're going to have many more historical figures worthy of reverence than we do. Overall, their culture is going to be inward-focused, not insular as I'll get to in a moment, but more focused on what they've done and what they do than what may be. Which is probably necessary in order to tie the disparate tribes together culturally, since otherwise it'd be relatively easy to drift apart again. They'll be far more goal-oriented as individuals and as a culture than humans are.
They also won't really worry about frontiers like we do. After all, when a pegasus can go scout out the land with little effort, it's just not the same as the days when humans had to travel over every square mile in order to map it. And the world isn't particularly empty - we don't know what or whom the ponies displaced to build Equestria, but it seems pretty clear that the world is chock full of stuff, so there's not the same concept of empty land and manifest destiny.
They're in contact with, at minimum, dragons, diamond dogs, and gryphons (and the saddle arabians but since they're equine as well I'm giving that a pass). So they don't have to worry about whether they're alone as a sentient race or not - they're not alone. And the other races are dangerous. That is a fact of their world. As is this: gryphons are obligate carnivores. So the ponies are in intimate contact with a race that eats meat.
Combine that with the fact that ponies are generally a prey species, and it seems likely they're going to have a far greater tolerance for differing morality than we do. Say that in the first contacts with gryphons they killed and ate ponies. That makes them a threat, certainly, but it wouldn't carry the taboo quality that would make ponies regard them as evil, in the way that humans would regard human-eaters as evil. Ponies probably would be completely unfazed if they encountered humans, since in the world around them there are carnivores and omnivores aplenty, some of them sapient, some of them friends.
Because the only way to prevent wars between cultures is trade. That is the only way to defuse the sort of tensions that result in war - partly because knowledge flows with goods, which prevents casting the other side as an Other and not really worthy of consideration, and partly because as economies interlock it becomes more and more difficult to actually rouse the sort of interest and/or ire that is needed to wage a war. And given the lack of dominance hierarchy and attendant superiority/inferiority dynamics, you're not going to get insularism from either fear of other cultures or assumption that they're worthless.
So take that they live in a dangerous world, replete with races that are capable of eating them (even if they've learned it's probably a bad idea to), and it seems unlikely that ponies would have a taboo on the concept of death. Not that they'd be fatalistic in any way, but it's more that they wouldn't try to hide it in their general culture the way we do. I don't know if the same would be true for other taboos such as sex, but I suspect there'd be far less there as well. They don't have any nudity taboo, so that's certainly not an issue. Which isn't to say they'd be rutting in public or anything silly like that, it's just that there wouldn't be any emphasis on it or away from it any more than any other part of life.
Overall ponies would be 'closer to nature' than we are. Not in the hippie-nature-worship way, but in the sense that they'd have fewer social and technological constructs to distance them. They have smaller towns, so they're more rural. Earth ponies are directly linked to agriculture and the natural world, which means they'd in general prefer more greenery. There's no reason for them to build a lot of infrastructure since it isn't better than pony power. This overall quiet, inward-focused rather than outward-focused, and self-stabilizing sort of culture would help explain why they've advanced so slowly - their drives just aren't the same. At the same time, they seem to have a quality of life meeting or exceeding ours, regardless of wealth disparity.
I'd just finished reading the previous posts and then you post a new one. These are great, keep them coming.
Naturally my views on these things have differences to yours but everything you've said so far has made perfect sense to me, and thus they've essentially integrated into my headcanon as things like this often do.
Thank you for what continues to be an interesting and well thought out blog series.
I'll have to remember this if I ever write a fic where ponies encounter a human, or gryphons, dragons, etc. It's a small tidbit of information that could be really useful.
What about big cities like Manehattan or Fillydelphia? Or culture centers like Canterlot?
Yeah...People seem to forget that while humans are omnivores and ponies are not, so are the Griffons, Dragons, and who knows what else.
Also, Griffons, Dragons, and Minotaurs all have hands, so Lyra/hand obsessed pony could always just pay Iron Will or Spike a visit.
Humans seem somewhat similar to Griffons anyways, so it shouldn't be that big of a culture shock. Still careful, and not openly trusting at first (like everything new and strange that might want to eat you), but not shocking.
Were not entirely without our own monsters here on earth. Having grown up on a farm sometimes the most fantastic element of equestria for me is the idea of farmers who arent at the mercy of floods, drought and all the other nastiness weather can throw at the world.
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That's a natural disaster, not a monster. It occupies a different conceptual space. Though, if you go back far enough you see heroes of ancient greece and whatnot actually wrestling floods and tornados and so forth as if they were...but we couldn't beat them back then, either.
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Presumably ponies would build cities for the same reason we do (communication, coordination of resources), but most pony cities would probably look more like Canterlot rather than faux-New-York or faux-Chicago. Very vertical, because of pegasi. Lots of green spaces, to provide the illusion of the 'natural distance' of a pony town. Decent chunk of magical support from the resident unicorn population.
I like to think they would have clothes off some sorts like this
th07.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/020/d/3/twilight_and_ether_by_1110soulite-d732p6r.png
They generally be tailor made to fit ponies of course. Their cutie marks would be either expose or embroidered in to the clothes in the same spot, since their a important part of their life.
The reason why they would have clothes, is to keep foals from asking that "question" about them parts when young. Other reason for it its a obvious visual of modesty which is a very sentient way of thinking, it also shows a clear cut of which species are sentient or not, separating them from the common animals.
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Right, my argument is that's a human conceit that probably wouldn't be true. Protect foals from sex? Why? That's a culture thing. Modesty? Why? Given their tails and quadrupedal nature and lack of hands and lack of need for clothing they'd never develop that as a social construct. They'd need saddlebags more than they'd need clothes, given that they're covered in fur and thus naturally insulated.
1762289 Yes the saddle bags would come first before clothes, clothes where invented to protect use from the elements. Though they have coats it would not fully protect them from the cold and such; reason why we where able to settle on the most uninhabitable of places on Earth.
From a history standpoint unicorns would be the first to have clothes due to their magic being more than capable than hands. This would lead to them feeling superior to them, this creates a sub conscious hierarchy that clothes make you better; and a visual sign of where you stand in society. This would lead ponies to acquire clothes to show their riches. We do not completely strip naked in a Desert city (Phoenix, Az) no matter how efficient it is to keep cool. Its a Feeling of modesty or shame if you prefer that you'll be judge by society being cast as a animal. Also covering the private body parts prevents bullying, downsizing, and others from comparing them to others. You don't want to pass a group of idiot colts comparing which mares private parts are better. Having clothes hugely dampers it, it doesn't eliminate it; since bullies, and snobbish ponies, and crooks are portrayed in the show being jerks. If you seen horses or work with them their fur doesn't help at all in that department.
Here is a ridiculous example
favimages.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cute-beauty-amazing-animals-funny-horse-clothes.jpg
here is a proper example
blog.smartpakequine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/blanketing-cover.jpg
I love the horse Blankets /).3.(\
I'm assuming they used blankets of giant leaves till they got proper clothes. Their sapient creatures where theirs a will theirs a way.
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You're still using human cultural norms.
Ponies don't need clothes. Humans do. The idea of clothing-as-status and clothing-as-modesty evolved from that need. Ponies that don't live in places that don't require clothing...don't tend to wear them. It's just that simple.
Sure, high-class ponies wear clothes, but rich people wear jewelry. Not everyone wears jewelry. Besides, they have explicit biological castes, why would they need anything further to set them apart?
That's completely a human thing. There's absolutely no need for it to be related to sapience at all. And not even all humans agree on it! Nudity laws vary from locale to locale, and that's ignoring nudist colonies. It's a wholly arbitrary social construction that has its roots in the fact that we need clothes to survive in most places.
What, as opposed to guys talking about what out of 10 some girl is, or which one has a bigger bust? There's literally no difference, and clothing is not going to impact that. The point is that this is not human context - all our implicit assumptions, social and biological, are not going to apply to this construction. There's no inherent social or biological requirement for clothing outside of "can I survive here" and "do I need pockets?" For ponies the answer to both is yes far more often than for humans, which means their society will view clothes utterly differently.
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I'm truly trying not to compare them with humans, but the show throws many references about that ( such as discord with the hospital gown this past episode). I'm talking not at all 3 races but one, the unicorn one. For their magic is more dexterous than our own hands, they evolve much more finely if their mind can be used as a tool, and the way other races gain their intelligence was thousands of years of cross breeding and evolution with EP and Pegasi. But technology wise Unicorns where ahead of any species due to their magic.
Clothes are made as protection from the elements, the fur they have still doesn't help them or protect them from those elements. the giant biting horse flies and mosquitoes can still bite through their fur having clothes or some sort of protection helps them, or if they get swarm by bees. They have horseshoes, armor, uniforms (wonderbolts). Clothes in their current era is more than affordable and gives more individuality to a pony, is why we wear clothes.It would separate them from some other pony that looks exactly like him or even alike down to the stock cutie mark.
I'm trying to talk about a realistic point of view meaning if they where like minded alien lifeforms. The more an alien race is a mass mind collective or a "higher" Dimensional being the less clothes. I would believe changelings are more naked than ponies if they aren't using armor to protect their hives.The more a race is composed of individuals the more clothing; Ponies are all about Individuality with their cutie marks.
This is a kids show that started in the 80's off course they wouldn't give them clothes because automatically kids would assume they have something to hide.
Reasons why:
a.) If an alien is really humanoid, you don't show them naked, not only because it looks silly and would get you in trouble for nudity, but because we won't viscerally BUY a naked human. It looks wrong.
b.) The filmmakers want us to see and appreciate the alien shapes. It not only satisfies their want to show up their model-making or animation or CGI effects, we can appreciate the body design.
c.) we don't really need to see clothes on a non-human form. It doesn't call out the same sense of wrongness as a naked human
d.) It emphasize the alien-ness by not having them wear clothes
humans have lived millions of years without clothes or very minimal, your still talking about those days of just surviving with what is necessary. With technology is more than possible to make clothes more widely used, and ponies are about the same era as us.
I kinda stole some quotes from other places that have a similar discussion about ET's as a whole.
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You're still not following the arguments and demanding human social context when that is the precise opposite of what I'm talking about.
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I feel that your trying real hard trying to stick with the kids shows point of view.
none of those quotes you pointed out really helps
So when I'm talking about ETs I'm not talking about humanoid aliens, I'm talking about all types of aliens including ponies.
most of those quotes I stole where from places talking about if ET's (extraterrestrial lifeforms) not humans (meaning all walks of life), if they would wear clothes.
You pointed out the part where I talk about hive minds where if everyones mind are merge their would be no individuality, so no need to express that through clothing (like changelings and their insect side). Which in the next sentence I Stated that "more a ET race is compose of individuals the more clothing they would have", and their cutie mark gives them more individuality more than us. Their not working for their race as a whole like changelings, their working for themselves its not a utopia. Theirs a money system there, meaning they put their talent to gain bits for them and their herd / family. With money they buy themselves nice things; clothes shows that quiet clearly when comparing a homeless person to a middle class worker.
Yes, I understand your whole point of view, but I'm viewing them as self aware beings. Your still referring them as to animals following instincts when they can think for themselves, which I agree on some of your points their behavior would differ from our owns with the herd mind, and their lack of hierarchy ( even though theirs a clear hierarchy from the rich and powerful in Canterlot and plenty of arrogance) but still would be like minded so I can't completely take away the human cross referencing.
I think fear/taboo of death is more a result of modernity making it rather more remote for us Westerners than an intrinsic human cultural thing. As recently as the turn of the century people were a lot more used to putting loved ones (especially children and wives who died having them) in the ground than they are now. An argument could be made that our magical ponies with their apparently modern health care (complete with machines that go "ping") and the possibility of very long lives (Granny Smith) if not immortality would make them as shy about death as we've become.