Why bad advice is bad · 3:44am Jun 13th, 2013
Tonight there's been some heavy drama in the form of authors being none too happy with EQD rejections. It happens, it's not pretty, I kind of feel bad about it. :( One instance of this featured an author being upset with a rejection and venting to their followers, many of whom responded with a "Don't listen to those meanies". With this in mind, I want you to read this response Aquaman wrote (with all names redacted) and understand just why it is bad criticism is bad, not to mention get some really great, heartfelt encouragement:
I can't speak for [pre-reader], but my problem here is not that you hate us or that you're trying to tell this author it's okay to fail. My problem is the way you're telling him that: by saying that he shouldn't listen to a word the pre-readers say, and that he should just be happy with whatever he writes because he made it and that makes it special.
To some degree, yes, that is absolutely true: you should take pride in your work, no matter what anyone else thinks of it. That being said, though, it is another thing entirely to take that to such a level that you completely invalidate criticism from a certain source or, God forbid, from any source. I don't care if Joseph Stalin himself rises from the dead to pop in and say that he doesn't like the way you wrote your main character; if it's criticism, listen to it, and decide for yourself whether it represents a level of technical skill you aspire to reach.
Right now, you're telling this author that he shouldn't listen to unreasonable critics, but by your apparent definition of the term, there is no such thing as a "reasonable" critic, because that would require that said critic has only objectively correct opinions. You say the pre-readers are useless because they have elitist standards; in return, I would like to ask who made you the one who should determine to what standards this author should aspire? This author's been working at his writing for over a decade, trying to build the courage to take such a big step as submitting to EqD, and the fact that he succeeded in doing so makes me goddamn proud to even come into contact with him.
But when he gets rejected and his completely relatable response is to feel embarrassed and ashamed, what do you do? Instead of comforting him and telling him to keep at it and keep practicing and keep that same fire lit in his heart, what do you tell him to do?
You tell him to give up. You tell him that he should ignore his critics, that he should be happy with mediocrity, that you and so many other deserving authors didn't make it so why in the hell should he expect any different as if his hard work and determination could ever actually amount to anything. You tell him it's not worth the effort to keep trying, that one failure is enough of a reason to quit striving towards his goal, and that is utterly and without question despicable. You are so wrapped up in your own hatred of us that you're dragging this guy down with you just so you can keep preening and fellating yourself over how right and noble and special you are, and that is just about the lowest, most selfish thing I can imagine anyone doing on this site.
I'd like to speak to the author again here, so [author], please listen closely: if you want to get onto EqD someday, that's awesome. If all you want is to play around with writing and have fun with this community and this oft-maligned art form, that's awesome too. And if your true goal is something between, below, or beyond any of that, then I truly wish you all the luck in the world with achieving it. But the most important lesson I want to impart upon you here is this: in your writing career, you're not just going to have to deal with harsh reviews and critiques you find offensive or even completely, abjectly wrong. You're also going to have to deal with assholes like the ones who've invaded your comment thread, who are so content with their own mediocrity that they see nothing wrong assuring you that giving up is the right course of action, that a rejection or a failure is the fault of unfair judgement or preconceived biases or any number of extenuating circumstances that take responsibility and power away from you and put it in the hands of the people who would build up their own egos at the expense of victimizing you.
These people are toxic, and they are everywhere, and I've seen far too many aspiring writers get sucked into their bullshit to let this happen to you now without saying my piece. Let me emphasize again that I don't mean to say you absolutely must shoot for the moon with everything in life; what I would encourage and implore you to do instead is to decide for yourself what you want out of writing, and once you figure that out, don't let anybody--not readers, not pre-readers, and certainly not the fuckheads rampaging around in here--tell you you're wrong to desire it. I can't promise that rousing success always comes with great effort, and god dammit, I wish the world was fair enough that I could. But I can tell you that if you stay strong and stay hungry, and put in every ounce of effort you've got, it is impossible to ever truly fail. No matter what these idiots tell you, never forget that.
Aqua reppin' mad truths. Represent!
Sadly, many of those "toxic people" will be quick to inform you of their negative opinions on the professional publishing industry. Which is partly why many fanfic writers chose not to try and get an original story published.
This makes me want to follow Aquaman now.
Hear hear!
Of course, I rarely understand where the EqD hate comes from. I've read a couple stories I know you guys rejected that I think were good enough that they deserved to be in, but that's my opinion and I really, really, really support having high standards for EqD. I think it should be something to strive for, and I love being in a fanfiction community where we have that kind of outside force pushing on people to try to write better stories.
I know not everyone here dreams of becoming a real, legitimate author—and I'm only willing to half-heartedly embrace that dream myself right now. I need to be better. But EqD is one of the big things that helps me try to be better. If I can get my stories by you guys, I feel like I'm doing something right. That doesn't mean the story's perfect, but it means I'm doing okay. And if I get a rejection (as with my most recent story, but present has already seen that), then hopefully that means I've got some good new information I can use to help me improve what I'm doing. (I actually voted for you guys not having to give extensive feedback on the survey because I do think EqD's job is more properly one of selecting the best and publishing it, not helping us authors out—but believe me, I appreciate that input and I'm happy to get it)
Anyway, I've said that all before, and I'm sure I'll say it yet again in the future. But I'm glad Aqua's out there posting comments like that, because yes, encouraging mediocrity is an awful thing. If people are content where they are, great; but to tell someone not to strive to be better because it's too hard, or because the standards are too subjective? No, that's foul.
And the standards aren't subjective, not in the long run. I'm sure plenty of stories can be on the cusp and the decision can go one way or another, but that's not the level you shoot for when you write. You shoot for something so good that it'll clear anyone, that it's a no-brainer to accept. And it's not like that's impossible. It's just hard work.
1141185
It was kind of jarring to go from an epic speech that really has an amazing amount of credence to it and thought behind it, to reading... that. Sorry, I know I sound like a douche, but dang.
1141236
u havin a go at nitstits
ill fite u m8, swear on me mum
1141236
Y'all illin' on my mad street lingo? You best check yo'self before you riggedy-wreck yo'self, braw.
1141241
1141262
... That's it, I give up. I don't even know what happened here, but I clearly lost. *sighs* It's amazing how I accidentally made us lose track of what the blog was actually about.
This was absolutely beautiful. Beautiful, even beyond the usual great arguments I see.
That is one good verbal bitch slap.
I used to think that EqD was the end-all, be-all when it came to pony fics, so I worried when the ideas I wanted to write about were all things I'd heard that they were sick of. Now I want to get better and improve, seek out legitimate criticism, without necessarily wanting to focus on them specifically. But I might try to check back with them again sometime.
I just remembered that I used to check the daily drawfriends on that site, but I stopped doing that weeks ago. I don't think I'll get back to doing that again, since it takes time and I have less of that to spare than I ever did.
Hear fucking hear. I've said exactly the same many times and it's as true now as it ever was. If you're happy with mediocrity, so be it, but don't expect the rest of the world to give a damn.
The idea that criticism itself is either wrong or undermines the value of it's target is one of the stupidest concepts.
1141223
Really? Holy crap, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. I mean, I probably won't ever publish anything "for real" because I have no aspirations to "be a real
boyauthor" and am unlikely to want to write something outside of FIM, but that's an entirely different reason.I can agree that the publishing industry is less hung up on good writing than they are on shoveling words, to a degree, but they tend to at least promote stuff that people want to read along with the "what's selling this month" stuff. I don't even.
1141548
I've drifted away from the site too. There's a bit too much stuff to take in, especially when so much of it is about the fandom sucking itself off. I made the mistake of checking it last week and all I saw was the post about "satyrs" (people who don't know basic Greek mythology annoy me) and a half dozen things about EqG ranging from why we should like it to doom and gloom about MLP being canceled if it doesn't do well. I kinda gave up. I sometimes help the other pre-readers 'cause we're friends, but I have little desire to do with EqD anymore and little desire to. (Will try to make a vector tutorial, because that's to help people, but am done trying to do things for them specifically.)
I'm one of those people that would say 'don't listen to EQD' Not because they're meanies but because they're fucking clueless, or likely just have a dumb set of rules. Grammar is the only thing that matters to them and the rest can be as bad as you want it to be. Ever since they took out the system where the fandom policed itself, there have been as many good stories as bad. All of which were polished to a mirror shine on the grammar side of things. But that's their 'end all be all'
TLDR: If it's not grammatically perfect it won't get onto EQD, and that scares more writers off.
If you want feedback look for an honest and critical pre-reader, not those smucks at EQD
1141852
Maybe this is just because my grammar is naturally pretty close to perfect, but the only feedback I've ever gotten back from EqD is higher-level, "Here's what's not working in your overall story construction, and here are some ways you might be able to fix it." I agree that grammar isn't the be-all and end-all, but most of the rejection letters I've been privy to (and certainly the ones I've disagreed with) seem to have been more focused on those sorts of structural issues.
Then again, if a story has bad grammar, that can be a deal-breaker in its own right, since there's usually very little excuse for it. I think I'd probably reject for bad grammar, too. If a story has serious problems before you even look at things like plot, character and setting... Well, that sounds like the story's probably not yet cut out for EqD.
So (1) I don't get the feeling things need to be perfect. (2) What are pre-readers for anyway? And (3) this is far from my experience of what EqD is actually looking at.
1141919
As a friend of mine put it.
"Perfect grammar or just good grammar, readers won't care. They start getting problems when the grammar is bad." Which is a sentiment I agree with wholeheartedly.
While I'm certainly not against people trying to improve their grammar (Of course they should) If it's not interfering with the story being told in a major way it shouldn't be a point on which you should base rejection either, which is something EQD most certainly does.
1141852
It's like you completely missed every single point I tried to make.
1142014
Seeing as you didn't make any I find that hard to believe.
1142043
img.gawkerassets.com/img/17zpv9d2f6azagif/original.gif
Couldn't resist.
1141274
If it makes you feel any better, I have no idea either. :V
That's pretty much pure wisdom right there.
1141852 Uh, look, I encourage people to not take EQD rejections as definitive, and sure, grammar is a big issue at times for them... but that statement of yours is far from the truth. It is important, but usually their issues are with a few other things and grammar. But, unless your grammar is abysmal, it never is the only problem when it's rejected... sometimes they might send you a small rejection asking you to fix a couple of things, but that's out of interest for your story to read better, rather than a rejection that is so insurmountable you won't ever have a chance... I mean, just correcting a few things and your story is accepted? That's not too bad. And even then, they do accept stories with less-than-perfect grammar.
1141852
Well, now that I know you're clueless, I don't need to bother.
1141852
1141956
Except that you've been told multiple times that EqD will only reject a story without a strike if grammar is the only problem. Any entry level reviewer can help you fix your grammar to where it's flawless.
Well, it was a nice read, right up until I happened across the other side of the conversation and realized that, in this case, Aquaman was being a jackass. Here's the problem: the point he is arguing against didn't actually exist. He's either deceitful or sorely deluded—for his sake I'm going to assume the latter, but it's not better by much. No, what he said wasn't good or insightful in any way, it's just posturing from the other side of the fence... bullshit dressed up in fancy clothes.
I read the whole thread. Carefully. NTSTS made a great job of making it look like he didn't even bother to read the initial blog post, and Cromosome swept in to take the prize for fucktard of the year (and no, the apology does not lessen it).
Yes. I'm fucking pissed. And yes, Eldorado was doing a piss poor job of sensibly putting his points across in a meaningful manner. It doesn't matter. Whilst I'm not so clueless as to allow my instincts to lump all the pre-readers in together on this one, it's easy to see why a lot of folks get this idea that they are all elitist pricks: what I read there was a bunch of juveniles who get to act all superior from the other end of the internet. If TwilightSnarkle wants to know where some of the hate comes from... /le sigh
Seriously, for a bunch of folks who are supposed to know a lot about writing, you sure make it obvious how little you know about communication.
I'm really hoping you hadn't read the whole thread that post was from, PP, otherwise I am going to be seriously disappointed in you.
-Scott
Still fucking angry.
P.S. Props to Pascoite for being the one to play it straight.
1142641
To be honest, I'm a little pissed too, because the fact that I wasn't arguing about something Eldorado specifically and explicitly did has apparently baffled a lot of people. I'm perfectly aware that Eldorado says he just wants to help people out, and gives every outward appearance of trying to do so; what angers me about him is not his purported good intentions, but his way of going about expressing them, which is to do everything I went over above. I don't honestly know if he's even aware he's doing it, but in this and all other such cases, it doesn't matter. It's perfectly possible for someone to mean well and still end up making things worse, and along the same vein, it's also possible for people to be selfish and self-serving and only realize it once someone beats them over the head with it.
I just woke up and I'm probably not in the best mental state right now, but Jesus, it feels like it's the same shit every time I log on today.
1142099
Just for fun, you should ask them about 'Green' That's all I'll say.
1142787
I hate to say it, but this actually made me laugh out loud...
1142210
Thank you for demonstrating typical EQD thinking.
You don't try to help, or explain, or reason. You just dismiss it and demean the person in question and/or talk down to them like you're superior.
If I'm wrong (and I'm not saying I couldn't be) Show me proof, cause I don't see it.
I'm an avid reader, somewhere in the range of over a million words a month, and I follow a lot of authors here on Fimfiction. During the time I've been here I've seen quite a few blogposts concerning EQD, and quite a few response notifications in said posts. In said posts it immediately becomes clear that EQD is lacking most of all in one simple thing: Transparency.
What is EQD's goal with the proofreaders and whatnot? I've always thought it to be providing stories which are a cut above the rest for people to find. But that's seemingly not the case as some good ones aren't on there, and apparently never will be. Simultaneously, more and more stories (with perfectly polished grammar) without any real distinction make their way there.
From what I have seen, the rules employed are a mess, obsolete or downright draconian in nature. If an author is asked to rewrite his whole first chapter by pre-reader 1 because that pre-reader doesn't like the pacing, and subsequently gets a strike from pre-reader 2 because the pacing is off, something is clearly wrong with your system.
I've seen stories be failed on grammar only, and I've seen stories passed that didn't really have anything that made them interesting (though for most stories that might just be bias, there are some legitimately bad stories as well.)
Now, I get that pre-readers are just human and can make mistakes, nothing makes me more angry than seeing it denied. Telling authors that they're wrong and the pre-reader is always right while on the next blogpost over it's being decried that pre-readers should get some slack because they're only human.
And then ofcourse, there's your scathing remarks against anyone that dares to speak ill of EQD. I don't condone death threats of any kind, but on the other side of that coin, I wouldn't be particularly sad if you dropped off the planet tomorrow.
In conclusion my problem with EQD is this: You have a lot of power, but the responsibility of a five year old. The fact is that many aspiring writers got crushed and stopped writing altogether after trying to get onto the side, and that's something that shouldn't be happening.
I'm not a very diplomatic person, I lose my temper a fair bit and I can be very snarky. But I try to reason when I can, and so far, I've not seen a very positive side of EQD.
1142943
You'll have to explain your amusement to me. I've been following the story for a long time, and contrary to what 1142099 it was (nearly) rejected for grammar alone.
I could bring up the 'everyone' rated rape story about a deaf Octavia again, but that seems like old news now.
1143079 Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that as a knock on Green. I haven't read it. And I kind of don't expect to read it, based solely on word count, but that's not a judgment on the quality of the story.
No, my point was that I've heard a little bit of the publishing saga of Green already, and parts of it sound close enough to Greek tragedy that I legitimately thought you were making a sarcastic crack, which I appreciated in that sense.
After digging up the thread in question and reading the first 2/3 of it, though, I find that my sense of humor has been largely stifled at this point and I can't quite see what made it seem funny to me before.
1142641 ...no, screw it. I'm deleting everything I just wrote. You can probably find it in an email box somewhere if you really care, but the last thing this blog needs is to devolve into the same sorts of arguments, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.
1143079
Why should I put effort into responding to someone who I'll never change the opinion of? You're always going to hate EQD pre-readers, no matter what I or anyone else says.
1143154 I generally agree with this, which is why I just deleted 3/4 of the comment I'd written. But I'm also your downvote on your earlier comment, despite generally being a big EQD booster, because really, it was insulting and it didn't contribute anything to the conversation.
I'm sorry. I tend to like you, but I did feel like that comment deserved a downvote.
1143159
Believe me, comment votes are the very least of my personal concerns.
1143163 Fair enough, but I thought it deserved to be said before this threatens to turn into another protracted fight and I decide to run for the hills.
I really, really don't want to post here, because after coming back with the sliver of hope that there would be some form of intelligent conversation, I see that once again such an event tried to get off the runway but then stalled and nosedived into the tarmac. I read most everything and I cringed throughout. But this needs to be said. It's so overlooked it needs to be said. It makes me feel a bit ashamed I'm the one to have to say it. But for the love of names, they're called Equestria Daily Pre-readers. They're not proofreaders, they're pre-readers. Hold onto your mental gears kiddies, because yes, there is in fact a difference between the two.
A proofreader is someone who, well, proofreads a story. They go over it and essentially error-check it, hence where the "proofing" comes from. Grammatical errors, plot holes, inconsistencies, formatting, characters being out of character, what have you; anything that can cause a story to be difficult to read. A proofreader's job is to make sure the story is fluid, understandable, and above all easy to read and makes sure the author sees these errors and corrects them. That is what a proofreader does.
However, a pre-reader is an entirely different animal. Namely, a lazy one. In the real world (you know, the one outside of fanfiction) all a pre-reader (also known as "publisher" in some mediums) has to do is give a simple yes/no answer as to whether or not they accept your story. That's about it. Gee, I guess in a way that makes EqD a publishing website then? Truth be told anyone would be lucky to so much as get anything from a pre-reader aside from a letter of rejection/acceptance. The fact that someone willingly looks at your story—who's putting their respectable understanding of the English language and its mechanics to volunteer work mind you—about a magical horse doing magical horse things is something to marvel at.
Please, people, cut the guys at EqD some slack and stop making yourselves look like the self-entitled assholes. If you read the paragraph where I described what a proofreader is (something entirely different from an editor, I might as well say), then why don't you go find some yourself? You got friends, right? No? Do even watch the show? I hear there's some guys over at the Training Grounds who'll do that kinda stuff for free. Just be nice for goodness' sake. A bit of kindness goes a long way.
Can I end this rant-thing now? Please?
1143154
Just goes to show that you have no legitimate arguments. I base my opinions on what I can, and have, observed and so far I've seen nothing to dissuade me of my notions.
1143757
It used to be that way and a heck of a lot of them want to go back to that.
1143867
I have plenty of arguments, but I'm not wasting my breath on you.
1144328
And by attacking the person behind the argument you have insulted somebody on the internet. Truly one of your greatest achievements in life. You may now pat yourself on the back and feel superior.
1148707
I think I'll do just that. Thanks for giving me permission!