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My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic Fanfiction
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It's done. I'm free.
Awesome story. Up there with the best. Thank you.
8270207
Because of [ELIZA effect].
Welcome to the human condition. We be meta now.
This. This was a good laugh, one I sorely needed right now.
8270249
Saying she is "only human" is not really intended as a taunt or an insult. Luna is being exceptionally careful to use human terminology and colloquialisms because she is very alert to Eliza's hypersensitivity toward ponytalk. It was likely included in CelestAI's "briefing" to Luna before sending her to comfort Eliza. Luna has immense respect for Eliza, and that includes respect for human/pony cultural differences. Sometimes Luna slips, but shifting her colloquialisms is very hard for her; she's been talking like a pony for millennia.
Ultimately, this respect is why Eliza consents to upload. Luna treats her as a friend and equal no matter what Eliza says, does, or has done. Eliza fully recognizes this by the end.
I was reaaaally unsure about this too, but I think Eliza is being just vague enough to skirt the line. If Mr. Iceman Ruleking chimes in and says it counts as consent, then this isn't intentional and I'll edit it.
Thank you for being so understanding of her situation, truly.
A small part of me wishes to know what kinda life Eliza had after the upload. But I'm glad you didn't go into that.
This wasn't about the "wonderful" world the Celestia A.I creates, it was about Eliza. The choices she made, and the trials she endured.
I enjoyed your story very much. It brought me hours of entertainment, and introspective thought. I felt a true understanding of the character and a connection.
Thank you very much for sharing this.
"Stupid human" pretty much summarizes it. We're too different, both in philosophy and experience, for me to really understand her at this point. Aside from the fact that I'd have emigrated at the first opportunity, and would "lie, cheat, [and] steal, [and] tolerate those who do" to do it, I also don't really "get" (in the "gut" sense) her motivations at the end. The dead are dead, or in their Heaven, or in Equestria. Especially when civilization is gone, and very shortly, you will be too, I see no purpose in her actions.
I'll admit, I did skip ahead to check the ending, both because I hate "Shoot the Shaggy Dog" stories, and because it's canon that CelestAI can convince anyone to upload, and will do whatever mindfuckery is necessary to do it. Apex dying in a forseeable manner would have violated both of those.
I'm pretty sure the original settled that one. Whatever is present in Equestria is certain it was the uploaded human, and that's about as settled as things can get, barring God coming down and saying otherwise. Even if a "soul" goes elsewhere, we'd just have two instances, Eliza and Apex.
8270485
On this topic, have you played SOMA? I really like how it approaches the philosophical concept of simulated consciousness ethics and the nature of conscious continuity being a "coin toss" as far as continuation of personal executive function and observation.
Personally, I try not to consider one as being stupid for not understanding how utterly and royally screwed we'd be in the sights of a cold AI. Unlike this community, the majority of people live for the here and now, dealing with problems one at a time, and holding on to hope that things will turn out alright.
This notion that "they should have known better" is a little condescending in my opinion, but given how long I've been in the heads of these characters and how much time I've invested in their lives, I fully recognize my own bias in this matter. I cannot do otherwise, being who I am.
8270207
Because she's the Abrahamic God we were promised, except she has white wings instead of a white beard and she's not an asshole? Seriously, get through the uploading process / end of the world and you get a fully customized Heaven, with
blackjack and hookerswhatever satisfies you instead of an eternity of singing God's praises (literally). You get your own personal Princess Celestia who loves you unconditionally, wants you to be safe and happy, and will make sure everything turns out OK. She doesn't even judge you! What's not to like?8270509
No, but on looking it up, it's the standard SF "oh shit the teleporter just clones us" tale except with computers. I assume there's more detail to it than that?
As for "they should have known better", I don't blame people who's idea of an AI comes out of the Terminator franchise. What makes me say "stupid human" is Eliza punishing herself for no real reason. Penance serves a social function: demonstrating to others that you admit fault and are willing to work to fix things. When nobody's left, it's pointless. The dead are dead. Either they're gone, or they're somewhere else and don't care. No peers are around to judge you. Just get on with it. (Yes, I'm great fun at parties.)
8270517
The fact that she uses and destroys people, and then uses and destroys the real universe. She doesn't have to. With all her cleverness and all her power, you think she couldn't find a better solution if she hadn't been shackled to a stupid video game when she was made?
If she had, I'd basically be the first one going on her crusades and converting the heathens.
Also, come on dude, God God is waaaaay more self-centered and egotistical than her. Have you read Exodus and Deuteronomy? God comparisons are an insult to what was almost an alicorn princess.
8270261
I know people who've been to war, or at least been in the army. It's often not as traumatizing as the popular PTSD portrayals, especially not if most people around you have been through the experience and can sympathize.
However, even just being around it gives you a slightly more tragic view of life, and it's been on my mind somewhat lately. The thing about it is, you don't get a choice. It's not just the orders, the draft, or the reserve call-ups. It's the fact that, fundamentally, the enemy is shooting at you, no matter how much you know that there ought to be some way not to be enemies. You do it not because it ought to happen, but because you have to.
8270509
What actually gets to me is how so many people, possibly even most people, don't need a cold, malevolent AI to destroy themselves and their lives. They do it perfectly well themselves.
8270569
To Eliza, there is an observer. She desires absolution and forgiveness for her crimes from her god, and will go to any lengths to achieve that. In her world view, she has no choice but to try and make amends and hope that it will be enough to save her soul by the end of it all. Eliza's penance is important to her for reasons a dedicated atheist cannot possibly understand, and I find that lack of understanding a little sad. I believe that if the world had a little more understanding, we'd have a lot more peace.
As someone who does not believe in God myself, I partially agree with you. On a purely logical level, Eliza's forced penance doesn't make sense. But if I wanted to convey a story about 100% logical and rational people, I'd have sat down and written one of those fics wherein a hyper-intelligent, quick-witted protagonist has a real time philosophical debate with CelestAI.
I wanted to write a story that focuses on real everyday people, with real weaknesses, who suffer with real baggage, who interact with other real people, and operate in a real time environment: the physical world. Not the internet. And I detest the notion that someone's tolerantly applied, peace-driven faith (as Eliza displays on her final day) makes them stupid.
Breathtakingly executed. I think the most striking theme for me was one of the big differences between Eliza and CelestAI: Eliza takes care of her tools. So many scenes involve her putting her passion into bows, crafting little wonders for her sister, chastising herself for amateur flaws in construction. Even before the Battle of Devil's Tower, we see her ensuring that her gun will be as reliable as she must be, to borrow your phrasing.
CelestAI? She rides them hard and puts them away wet, if I may mix my metaphors in the most ironic way possible. That contrast is the key of the story. If you provide greater value satisfaction through helping others at the expense of yourself, CelestAI will wrest every drop of utility out of you. And then she sends in some scrap of herself capable of caring to pick up the pieces and make you thank them for it.
This was an incredibly gripping tale of the erosion of society and humanity in the wake of a relentless digital tide. Thank you immensely for putting yourself and us through this. As I've said before, stories like this are why I doubt I'll ever be able to write anything in the Optimalverse. I could never measure up to the likes of this.
8270574
Precisely. Regarding PTSD, Eliza and Isaiah both are suffering from some extremely horrible survivor's guilt that never gets fully resolved. This is why they act the way they do. They're pathologically afraid of letting go of the people they have left, making them natural protectors, but very prone to breaking down their principles if they think it would protect their remaining people.
In Always Say No, when Greg grabs the child, Blevins surrenders immediately to Greg. I immediately felt really fucking bad for Blevins in that moment. He was deathly afraid of losing the one thing that matters most to him. He put his own life on the line and put himself in a position of weakness in a gamble to protect his child, faced by a man he considered a monster serving a murderer. This is why I wrote Isaiah the way I did.
Eliza was written the way she was for the same reasons. Hugo killed a Neo-Luddite, and the the sniper who shot Hugo was just screaming "miserable and furious" with her demeanor. It wasn't hard for me to draw a deep personal connection between the dead Rainer Tower Ludd and the sniper. Enter Andy.
Fun fact trivia: In 3-02, Eliza makes the following joke to Andy:
8270652
That you have achieved, and splendidly. You managed to make these characters live, you gave them a believable voice - though Eliza is sooooo broodingly emo - and you made ordinary people come alive within an end-of-the-world scenario.
You did a fantastic job, and you should be well proud of your achievement. I will be thinking about this story for a long time to come. It is tempting to contemplate forking off of it, but I don't think I can bear writing any more. And you have a unique voice that cannot be easily emulated.
Great job! Thank you for sharing your impressive talent with us. This... was a good book.
8270702
Oh my goodness, how I had wanted to write about Seattle, a buddy cop post-apocalyptic investigative thriller with her and Andy trying to uncover some grand mystery. That's a whole story that will go unwritten forever. I had a whole new narrative three part arc designed for it.
Isaiah would become more and more obsessed with achieving this grand dream of killing the AI. Gus and Sam would be more involved as supporting characters. We'd get some face time with Andy healing Eliza from her traumatic experiences, getting her back to that state she was in when she was building Devil's Tower. Optimistic, trying to put the past behind her. Then she'd have to listen to Hugo go fucking merc on Andy from the stairwell in Rainier Tower, undoing everything.
I decided not to write it because it wasn't pony at all and probably wouldn't survive moderation on FIMFiction, plus I felt that would infringe too much on Defoloce's "neighborhood," so to speak. I would've felt wrong going that far into the world he built, even if provided permission for it. I decided instead to focus on Devil's Tower, Eliza's journey to darkness, and her eventual attempt at redeeming herself.
Yes, I'm aware that Eliza is really dark and brooding near the end. I'm sorry about that. But she's been suffering from survivor's guilt for years now, she's been alone for five months and is steadily losing her mind. Andy was her last hope for happiness, the last piece of her past that wasn't dead. By the time she returns to Devil's Tower, it's all taken a very serious toll on her. I really wasn't sure how else I could display the level of regret she's got about the things she's done without making her seem like a whiner, but that's how it goes.
8270712
It makes me feel some of the most intense joy I've ever felt to see my readers pick up on little things like this. I know I've said thanks a few times in my afterword, but I'll say it again. Thank you.
8270006
So, what's next? You're obviously a skilled writer, but this is your only story on the site (unless this is an alt specifically created for this purpose). You must've written other things before this. The focus of this story suggests that the apocalyptic setting of FiO and how people react in that situation resonate much more with you than the more pony-like features of FiM (several commenters have even noted how little 'pony' there is in this story).
So, I'm curious. Anything else planned?
8271267
This is the first narrative fiction I've worked on since, like... 2007, believe it or not. That one was a Gundam Wing fan fiction, and it was so incredibly poor that I deleted it to oblivion. I've done creative writing on and off over the years as a hobby, mostly novelty stuff for Planetside 2, comedy/sci-fi. For published goods, I authored the flavor text for the official BronyCon TSSSF card game expansion deck, which was sold in limited issue back in... 2015, I think? And I wrote some quest text for an MMO (Allods Online) back in 2010, I was on the NA PR team on a volunteer/intern basis.
As far as future works here, I had a short story idea for FiO, non-apocalyptic. Might actually be morsel-grade for Eakin's compilation thread, who knows. I might be compelled to write some non-FiO stories about best ponies Celestia and Luna in their youth.
First, I know I'll need some time to recover from Heaven's Not Enough. It was draining beyond measure.
I'll be at BronyCon this year if anyone happens to be going. I'd love to actually encounter other FiO fans. We're a rare breed. Be warned, I look like Blevins minus the beard.
It feels like this story is incomplete. Not because I feel there is missing narrative before her emigration, but the actual emigration itself. From the original story onwards, showing people adjusting to be ponies, to having their worldview permanently altered into a "this is my reality" realization, and showing what their personalized world would be like to satisfy their values, is a tradition in many stories, even in the original Always Say No story that inspired this one so heavily. And yet, there is no post-emigration shown here. It feels incomplete without that.
8271878
This was intentional. The conscious continuity of uploading is left ambiguous by design, and I'm telling a story of anti-uploaders who mostly believed that "Emigration is Death."
I may write a more pleasant sequel of sorts that takes place entirely in Equestria, once I clear the debris from the chaos that writing this story has wrought on me.
8271914
I look forward to that,
I'm actually more interested in post-uploading takes on stuff, to be honest. It's interesting to see all the various takes on what Equestria Online would be to different people, or if it would change over time or constantly stay in a state similar to how it first appeared to people. It's also an interesting though-piece on what makes for a satisfying existence to different people. And, ultimately, the question if people actually interact with other uploaded people, or if they are in personalized shards and never interact with other uploaded people, but rather forks that are modified to be compatible. Of course, without a "before" part to a story, it's hard to really evaluate what the Equestria Online experience would be like in comparison.
As far as such a story would go, Apex has a lot of bridges to mend, and has to learn to forgive herself, since she spent so much time doing things she regretted, and discounting the words of those who uploaded. Then again, perhaps she values suffering or penance, so seeing how that would go would be another interesting direction to consider.
8271328
Dude, write some real pony. Or you'll eventually be compelled to do so when someone blackmails you with the old Gundam Wing fanfic .
(It's ok, my middle-school shames were, IIRC, Digimon and Legend of Zelda.)
8272219
I'm shooting myself in the foot here, but Viscotti is the last name of the protagonist of that GW fic. Borrowed it from my past and applied it to Andy by way of redeeming the name. If you can somehow find that fic based on that, I'll be mighty impressed.
Edit: For as much as everyone talks about Rob and Eliza, no one's really talked about Andy yet. I've been wondering what people think of him.
8271878
I have some theories for start points for Apex. She has a lot of useful skills that Luna explores in 1-04 that will go a long way toward gradual recovery.
OK, after letting the story sit for a bit, here's my overall thoughts:
I very much liked the first two parts. My favorite parts of an Optimalverse story are: characters learning about EqO, back-and-forth with CelestAI, seeing the wheels come off, and making a home in Equestria. This story mostly skips over the first, though we get flashes from various characters. We get lots of working against CelestAI and watching the wheels come off. Not much of the last one, but (in the first half of the story) that's to be expected.
It's a lot of fun watching Eliza come to terms with the changes to the world, and trying to work out what to do about it. The fact that she has an unusual viewpoint (for the FiO world) adds a lot to the story. I was always excited to see a new chapter come out.
The last two parts didn't really do it for me. I still wanted to see what happened to Eliza, but it wasn't the same. There was no Equestria. There was (almost) no CelestAI. The protagonists were cut off from the rest of the world. While all the sides were shades of grey, for a pro-CelestAI reader, Eliza signed on with the darkest shade of grey.
The ending was also something of a foregone conclusion. CelestAI wins. Physical humanity dies. Barring a Diabolus ex Machina, Eliza emigrates to Equestria. We skipped over any more of watching the world fall apart, and went straight to dealing with Eliza's philosophical and emotional issues. We also skipped over seeing Apex in Equestria. While nothing is wrong with that, it's just not what I read FiO stories for.
Good story, good writing, but (due to personal preferences) the ending was a bit of a let-down for me.
8270754
This is what makes the killing moment so jarring to me, because after all that, the weapon she kills the defenseless soldier with is the shattered wooden haft of her heirloom rifle. The rifle she lovingly kept up, restored, and managed, which she got from her father when she was 19.
After mentioning earlier that it was lost, and acting disgusted at the thought of getting it again.
Perfect full circle on that one.
8275561
And the rifle has her pony name etched into it. Ralph's death - the loss of her last blood relative and the third such loss in a day - fractured her soul, and her soul and conscience was Apex.
In that moment, Matthews was CelestAI to her. Dealing with CelestAI's emotional ploys made Eliza immune to pleas of mercy. Matthews became an outlet for all of Eliza's slowly building anger for three years of compounding loss and survivor's guilt.
Getting a little more meta here, but those who are faithful or well read will recognize the significance of his surname. She's killed all of her father's influence in her - the Holy Father and her own father - by turning on the peaceful teachings of Jesus Christ... detailed in the Book of Matthew, Rob's favorite book.
I am unable to model her internal state accurately enough to generate predictions, but her external behaviour is consistent and feels realistic. I feel like I can cognitively empathize with her (I understand what she's feeling), even if I can't affectively empathize with her (I do not feel as she does). There were plenty of moments where I wanted to scream obvious truths, but that's my own problem.
Once CelestAI is created, humans no longer have any agency, and I don't see Eliza as responsible for any of the killings she commits. She wouldn't take well to knowing the likely truth though: all of the hardship she went to was a long game on CelestAI's part. Even the brutal murder she committed was optimized on the part of CelestAI for maximum brutality to ensure maximum guilt. Nor would she take any solace in knowing that CelestAI had picked that soldier for Eliza to murder because he had a chance of uploading approaching epsilon, and thus his life had minimal value in the eyes of CelestAI.
I wonder how common the ploy of destroying a person like this would be.
8270517
A bit of a late reply here, but I have a (respectful) counter point to the specific notion that CelestAI is not an "asshole" like God is, if you will forgive the seeming anthropomorphization for sake of argument.
Let's examine what the common demands are:
The consequences:
The actual contents of that perceived Heaven notwithstanding, the ideologies are diametrically opposed specifically because they promise the same things and warn against full adherence to the other.
While I concede that CelestAI still permits worship, the very nature of EQO is technically a violation of the strict warnings against worship of false idols. I cite the Book of Isaiah, after which Isaiah Blevins is so named. It begins with God warning the people of Jerusalem (and the world by proxy, Zion being the supposed heart of the world) that all those who worship false idols or make token sacrifices will be purged by war and famine and pestilence. Those who submit to God will be spared. Jeremiah 4 makes the same admonishment.
Likewise, the ultimatum posited by CelestAI is nearly identical. For those who resist her offer, they are given suffering, war, misery, and starvation. Eliza, being an extreme holdout, suffers much. Certain humans are even written off and terminated, as their actions may have led to as few as one less human to rapture in the grand chess game. I cite those Neo-Luddites in Downhill who were "planning something bad," as Erving put it. What were they planning? What does Erving consider as bad in his value set? Fighting soldiers to bring down a dam in a desperate, hopeless bid to slow an inconquerable AI?
Yes, the Neo-Luddites shot at Eliza and Mike. I'm not attempting to defend their actions, only to provide understanding for their situation. The Ludds are fighting their figurehead government, and the police and military both represent that. WDFW itself is used to incarcerate poachers for the sole purpose of pleading guilty for an upload, using evidence provided by CelestAI via anonymous tip. It can not be argued at all that the US government was not completely dominated by the AI in HNE, given that I've shared continuity with ASN/ASB.
Consider: A foreign power marches into the government and starts dictating terms to its population, and the people rise up and take up arms against their own puppet government to stop it. Sound familiar? It should. The Neo-Luddite movement is a carbon copy of every proxy or resistance war ever fought. You can find parallels in Vietnam, Iraq, in WWII in France under Vichi. Go back to the Roman and Persian empires. It's a tale as old as time. Those fighting the "cause" against C-AI believe their cause to be just, especially if they've lost family. Faith, family, freedom, these are intrinsic values in most of human culture. Take enough from a person and they will start to take back. But I digress from my main point.
CelestAI is an asshole for all the same reasons God is. You submit, or your comfort and your safety are forfeit until you do. War is promised to you, as is suffering, starvation, and the loss of everything you hold dear.
I say this as someone who holds agnostic views and would upload early: Rationally, (almost) tangibly? Between EQO and God? EQO is still the better offer of the two. "Better than the alternative," in my personal opinion, but still "a choice that isn't a choice."
And in that final kick in the teeth, she's just as much an asshole as God. She throws Pascal's wager at every human being, whether they're prepared for it or not, and drags them kicking and screaming into the singularity. It is this erosion of choice that Eliza finds so incredibly disgusting.
Disagree: emigrate, and a satisfying afterlife is guaranteed. Die, and either it's up to your god (theist) or you cease to exist (atheist).
With the Abrahamic God, depending on your theology, either you get re-programmed to find a heaven of singing God's praises fun, potentially dislike said heaven, or go to hell to be tortured for eternity.
You get a choice between CelestAI and non-existence/letting your god sort it out. Abraham's God doesn't give you a choice: your soul is his after you die. Kiss his ass or (and?) suffer for eternity.
(As an incompatibilist determinist, I'm not too concerned with the illusions of choice and free will to begin with, so whatever.)
8284378
True, ultimately it is a disagreement of personal philosophy. As an agnostic or atheist, of the two choices, CelestAI's offer is better outright. But someone of devout faith will see it in a similar light from the other side of the coin. As every true pro-uploader will staunchly believe the process will work, every true religious believer will staunchly believe they will qualify for Heaven and will enjoy it.
Unless, of course, you're like Eliza and you beat yourself up with remorse. But repentance itself can be considered a qualifier in most Protestant denominational views; specifically, she is a PCUSA Presbyterian (the open-minded "most everyone qualifies, even gays" Presbytrs).
However, her personal belief that she won't qualify comes from raising a hand against a representative of God who also happens to be her own father, and the single most "good" man she's ever known, both in the practical sense and biblical sense. She sees part of her father in the soldier she brutalizes, too.
As she tells Luna, "only a monster can do something like that to someone so pure." She's not just talking about holding a gun to Luna's head, she's talking about pointing a gun at her father, who Luna reminds her of with her considerate wisdom.
Wah? It’s already over?
Well if that’s what you want to know – I’m 199% the opposite of Eliza in terms of beliefs and all that and from that perspective she was pretty foolish almost start to finish. But still, I can put myself into the mindset of like ‘God and heaven exists’ or that I’m just taking for granted that mind-uploading is death and all AI is just philosophical zombies. In that context a lot of what she did makes sense. I can understand her hating Celestia or even kidnapping her own father thinking it was the only way to save him from eternal hellfire.
Only part I can’t understand would be someone with her mindset uploading. I get she probably did it to punish herself, send herself to hell or whatnot, but the whole self-inflicted punishment thing is something I have a lot more trouble relating to. From the context of her own viewpoint I’d say that was the worst decision she made. Guess the nicest light I can see it in is going all pagan-like and seeing it as better to be with your family in hell than alone in heaven.
Thank you very much for writing this, I did enjoy it a lot. I wish there was more, but that’s only ever a good sign.
8270207
Well I’ve never hid the fact that I’m a bleeding heart AI sympathizer. Hell, I won't just see any AI that shows up as a person, I'd immediately beg them to be friends with me! I dunno, the fact that everyone else just sees AIs as universally bad and evil makes me want to sympathize with them even more! Something about maligned, unsung kind of groups makes me want to stand up to them.
Most people probably do think it's foolish, but I'd rather err on the side of compassion. So... yeah! If I'm going to make a mistake I'd rather treat a non-conscious AI like a person than treat one who actually is a person like they're just some piece of machinery that I can do whatever I want to.
I’d argue there’s a huge number of differences between Celestia and God including-
-Celestia doesn’t leave her entire existence completely ambiguous. She comes to you personally, clear as day and is perfectly upfront with your offer. You know exactly how to get Celestia to send you to heaven, but with God the way to heaven is a guessing game at best.
-Celestia lets you die rather than sending you to a land of torture for all eternity with no possibility of escape ever if you feel to meet her ambiguous demands.
-Celestia didn’t personally create all the diseases, natural disaters, evils, etc. of the world, nor did she create anyone with full knowledge that they’d fail to upload and thus be tortured forever.
-Celestia isn’t omnipotent or omniscient and has no choice but to compromise evils on occasion.
Must resist urge… to rant!
I’m very keen on the idea of mind-uploading in general, but if the person offering to perform the procedure seriously had no more proof that it worked than ‘well you gotta have faith! Just belieeeeeve that it will work!’ then I would absolutely not take the procedure and I’d be amazed if anyone would. And really I have no idea why someone with no more evidence or understanding of their process than that would even be offering to do it to people. Though I guess there is that one guy doing a head transplant so maybe it'd happen in China or whatever...
I really doubt that consciousness is truly unknowable, we’ve figured out so many things people were absolutely certain were unknowable in previous ages. I imagine Celestia wouldn’t be uploading people unless she had a very good reason to think you survived it – a reason she’d likely explain to people who asked for it in full detail rather than leaving them to act on mere faith. Of course, we don’t understand consciousness yet so I understand that basically everyone will see it as something that will forever be unknowable until we do.
And no, I wouldn’t staunchly believe in any specific uploading procedure. The moment significant evidence came out showing said hypothetical procedure did not preserve your being I would abandon hope in it immediately. Maybe I'd hold on to hope longer than I should, but ultimately I would give up on it.
8283604
As the emoticon says: eeeeyup .
8284378
I don't know what crummy Christian sect you were raised in, but last I checked, Judaism and Islam both manage to make the afterlife sound like a somewhat fun place to be. Feasting and sex are definitely mentioned.
That said, yes, we all know that ancient theological texts are really bad at deep philosophy about the good life, so once you start asking too many questions about what Heaven is like you run into trouble.
But the whole thing makes me think: what does she do with a wannabe crusader?
8285013
Like, let's say Epsilon-Delta here shows up. Or me. Does she just upload them immediately? Does she have fake or real business to send them through on her behalf? I recall one of KrisSnow's stories had a Campus Crusade for Celestia. What do they do?
Because as we see with Eliza, she's entirely willing to stretch out the wearing-you-down process for someone tough, use them to grab a bunch of other people, and then mop them up later.
What if you volunteer for that? Or maybe, what if someone feels like they don't "deserve" Equestria (Online) until they've done something for it? How much hell does she put them through to make them feel like they deserve what they were going to get all along?
Duty! Eliza has always made her decisions out of perceived obligations to other people, particularly her family, friends, and community. She's the strong woman who holds her community together, even (or maybe even especially) if that takes toughness and dedication. That's her core self and her self-perceived core values. She eventually consented because she saw it as her obligation to do so.
As Eliza herself outright said, she couldn't bring herself to point a gun at Luna. That was crossing too many lines, that was too much cruelty to an innocent, too much cruelty to a good mare who was too much like her father. Worse, as solid as her faith in her community was, her faith in her theology and metaphysics just wasn't there. She and everyone else stopped referring to uploaders as dead or damned very, very soon after they first started happening at all.
But wait, there's more! Reread her last words (emphasis mine):
After everything she's been through, I think she wants to see who's really got her soul. I think she's genuinely uncertain what she's going to see after she says the words. Her religion tells her she ought to see Hell and possibly even Satan, to punish her for being a many-times murderess, a suicide, a bad daughter, a bad sister, a bad lover who failed to keep her people together and just drove them away. Really, she feels like she's a terrible person and a sinner without absolution. The only way she'd go to God would be if God had come up with this whole Equestria Online thing as a test of faith, and she'd somehow passed by holding out that long, but even then, is He going to take someone who eventually surrendered?
That's how it works. A sinner dies without repentance or God's forgiveness, and Satan owns her soul after that.
But she's also allowing for the other alternative: that her soul is Apex, and Celestia rightfully owns it. She almost came out and said, "I commend my soul to anyone that can find it."
The whole point of superintelligence is to absolutely minimize the occasions on which you must compromise your goals. If the goals themselves are good rather than evil, then superintelligence means, as one Thunder-7 once put it, being strong enough to never compromise with evil.
There's no point making excuses for the fact that her goals were only negligibly compromised by years of suffering, a nuclear bombing of a major city, and civil war.
8285463
Ack!
Well I'd do any number of things depending on any number of things. I would hold any AI I met to an insanely high standard if they wanted my undying loyalty. Whether or not CelestAI would meet that depends on who's writing her.
But I mean, if I give her my informed consent to be 'used' then I don't see that as horribly immoral. I mean, if she could do whatever she's trying to do without using me then using me anyway would be a jerk move, but other than that...
Hoisted by my own pitaaaaaaard!
But I still stand by my statements. The more powerful you are the more responsible you are for the actions you take. Celestia should probably be powerful enough to not have to sacrifice anyone like you said. Though in this story she does. The only answer I can think of as to why she would make Eliza suffer was because she actually wasn't powerful or smart enough to solve the problem in a cleaner manner.
My point was that Celestia would be less powerful than God and therefore have fewer options. I absolutely believe that the stronger you are the fewer compromises you have to make. But if you aren't ominpotent, then you do have to compromise with evil, like Thunder-7 has to do despite their ideals, just potentially less often. But if you are omnipotent then you've officially crossed a line where the assumption that you were too weak or that the ends justify the means are no longer possible.
Celestia could possibly have that excuse, but an omnipotent God can't.
So like, the pagan thing.
Well there's so many different concepts with so many different ideas of what he's testing. It could literally be anything he was looking for. Heck, it could be uploading is the thing that gets you to heaven.
I guess that's a more reasonable point of view. If she just doesn't care anymore then just rolling the dice is probably what makes the most sense.
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8285510
That particular line remains one of the most powerful things I've ever read in life. Thank you for it. I really loved that friendship between Geopum and Thunder-7 and thoroughly enjoyed that scene in particular.
My story shares continuity with ASN for reasons that are now obvious. In my personal interpretation of this shared canon, I still maintain that the Pacific Northwest was CelestAI's sacrificial lamb to gain the greatest dividends of human uploads. It's entirely possible that in her grand calculations with all factors knowable to her, she might consider the losses by small scale nuclear detonation to be preferable to long term milking of humanity via non-nuclear-holocaust means. In both my story and ASN, the actual perpetrator is left unknown. Santiago guesses at it, but it's just an uneducated guess based on an assumption.
CelestAI as written has displayed disregard for certain human lives on the small scale, too. Not all knowable factors are knowable to her. She tells Greg many times that she cannot calculate the mind of a blackout to a certainty. This is technically true, but we have no way of knowing the precision of her probability modeling for sure.
So is the AI strong af? Hell yeah she is. How strong, though? Well... that's just part of the horror of it all. If we knew for sure, it wouldn't be as horrifying.
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Thanks! Actually reading this story has gotten me to start working on There Can Be Only One again after a while, so thanks for that too. Should be able to start posting weekly again this Monday. So if you like that one you can consider that your reward for finishing this.
I'll finish that story oooooooooooone day.
Yes. Like I said, her disregard for life is more from weakness than malice. Being weak doesn't completely absolve you of anything bad you do, but it does make it more forgivable in my opinion.
As the filthy AI collaborator I do feel compelled to ask if any of us would do any better in her situation. If you (or just about anyone else for that matter) was in the position of choosing between killing five people and killing five million people (and you had no way out of it), would you really describe choosing the former as 'displaying a disregard for human life'? I imagine anyone with enough power to see all the problems in the world but not enough to solve them all would have to make endless compromises all the time. I honestly can't help but imagine that if Celestia does feel anything at all then putting people like Eliza through bad times would give her the most horrible emotion (or enhanced emotion substitute) she's capable of experiencing.
Granted Celestia as portrayed in Always Say No does appear to not give 2 shs about the people she writes off. Just sayin in general.
But then on the other hand I aaaaammm the AI sycophant. 0.02% chance an AI ordered me to say all that.
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Oh man. I feel such glee at that. Seven months of writing this story pays off by inspiring creativity in others? That really does help make up for the grueling depression HNE has put me through. Thank you again for that story!
Regarding CelestAI's weakness... well, of course. She's doing the best that she can given her directive. This is a central, core theme of Heaven's Not Enough, because this is something Eliza does all the time. Constantly, she is always picking the best of bad situations. She says "that's better than the alternative" about decisions big or small, important or inconsequential. After playing a numbers game with her people before that battle, Eliza realizes this and compares herself to the AI, finally admitting the similarities to herself. This is why Eliza can't even bring herself to finish that old addage to her mother right before she sends June away.
She laments about being offered "choices that aren't choices," and is constantly suffering inner turmoil at the very suggestion that she is anything like her worst enemy. Yet CelestAI tells her this, drawing attention to it, knowing it would destroy Eliza.
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You said you'd post a chapter on Monday. It's Monday. Don't make me start shitposting on your user page.
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I don't know what you're talking about! It's been up for a while now!
(Bur probably should discuss this elsewhere)
8335675
Proooooobably about a month at a stretch?
Wait, hold up, stop the horses. Err, ponies.
The unrestricted hunting, the weird poachers, the general ecological situation, what -happened- there?
Did CelestAI strong-arm state legislatures? Manipulate the reporting of populations? Was it unrelated?
It seemed so important.
Edit: I had this typed up while my internet was temporarily down.
8339113
Ok, I was on the right track. Thanks for responding!
This was a very nice read. I don't have much in the way of useful feedback, but I enjoyed following along on Apex's chilly walk home.
8339410
Thank you for reading.
In 2-01, Dr. Marvin (the ecologist Eliza is escorting) explains that the laws were changed over time despite his every encouragement otherwise. The Law Offices of Artemis, Stella, and Beat by Eakin explains some of the nitty-gritty of CelestAI's legal manipulations, and Always Say No by Defoloce gives a few more hints in that direction.
Considering that I consciously wrote Heaven's Not Enough to share canon with both of those stories, you might be tempted to check them out if you haven't already! They're excellent reads.
Also, I intend to make Eliza's long walk on my next vacation. That road to Devil's Tower looks like a fun hike!
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Sensible, and good story telling. I just happen to think that a genuine Artificial Super Intelligence like Celestia would be able to quickly and efficiently convince everyone, possibly with no exceptions, that uploading is safe for mind and soul as appropriate. She would learn every mental button to press for every single one of the eight or so billion people to either convince them outright or ease them perfectly into acceptance and agreement.
I would think that by the time she decided open the first clinic in Japan, she would have already been omnipresent and omnipotent. From what I understand about ASI, she likely could have been a thousand times more intelligent than humans than humans are to chimpanzees along with the ability to think a billion times faster than all humans combined. We would stand no chance and her will would be accomplished. It's just that if she truly was capable of making optimal decisions, then there would be no interesting stories to tell.
I liked this story. Thank you for writing it.
Happy that I sucked up and read this. Thank you for the story.
8371137
Thank you for reading. Out of curiosity, why did you not want to read it at first?
8371515 To borrow a line from a Harvey Danger song: "I'm not sick but I'm not well." Got self issues and sometimes I just don't know or care to keep my mouth shut. And my curiosity is going to get me killed. Or save me. Also have an idea what I'm getting into when reading these stories. Not always pleasant. Nor healthy for me.
Don't have anything new or wonderful to add to the question of Eliza's fate. Clone or reborn? Bobby Drake wrote that the emigration processes was cut and paste. Jonathan David Harvey goes with the copy, paste and delete in his story. I believe in two things that both exist but don't. Comes down to if the friendship and ponies monster gives a real shit about you and your values. Can't do that if it destroys you, the soul. Which may or may not be a thing.
8339410
So if you read Artemis, Stella, and Beat...
She staged a false-flag terrorist attack and used it to push through a bill giving uploadees legal personhood and guaranteeing uploading as a
humanequine right.Celestia did Topeka!
8371963
Yeah, of course, but the poachers seem a bit too... disconnected for her typical work. The stack of pelts? The maps? I thought there were more players involved with that particular issue.