So as many of us know, Sparity is the most popular straight ship in the fandom, or at least in the top 5 of popular straight ships. Being the only one that has any evidence in primary canon (comics are secondary canon), it's easy to see why.

Assuming that you don't know what a dragon/hybrid is, here are several pictures to give you an idea:

I gave you some more more exotic examples for further reference. For those of you who don't know, the technical term for these hybrids are known as 'Kirin' or 'Qilin'...

Get the Hell out of here, Krillin! I'm busy!

There are also Longmas, who are more on the dragon side of the hybrid more than the kirins/qilins:

Now, again, Sparity is one of the most popular shippings out there, and whether or not you like it, I'm sure there are people that hate your favorite shipping just the same *cough*Twidash/Appledash*cough cough*, but that, given the information presented, raises a certain question:

If, genetic boundaries notwithstanding, Spike and Rarity were able to concierve of a child that would inevitably be a Kirin, would that child be an automatic Mary Sue or Gary Stu? It has many of the traits, including, but not limited to:

-Being a rare hybrid (naturally)

-Most likely will have an interesting or exotic name (although your miles may vary on what is considered exotic in a fandom where 'Rainbow Dash' and 'Thunderlane' are somewhat normal)

-Will be able to do things no one else could (in this case, probably be much more durable, have magic and breathe fire and perhaps beven be much more long lived, thanks to dragon genetics).

With all this information, would any child they have or any kirin that came of a union between a pony or a dragon be an automatic Mary or Gary?

Not necessarily.

As with Superman or Wolverine or any other Superhero, I beleive that it depends totally on how useful they are, what they are put through as a character and, most importantly, their character growth. It would also help, I think, if they take on things on a larger scale, like how Superman or Thor take on guys as strong as they are while Batman or Aquaman are still very useful to the team in almost any situation.

It all depends on execution.

But am I wrong?

Is any kirin doomed to Suetopia?

Or am I a genius and deserve a medal?

Comment below, let me know!

2464501

First, we as a fandom have to take a look at Kirins as a whole in their retrospect. When we finally have a clear definition on what a Kirin's potential role is in the MLPverse, then we have to define what would make a Kirin a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. Kirins are draconic and equine, meaning that they have traits of the two. However, they would also inherit their weaknesses as well. No character is a "Mary Sue" by default. It takes an author with poor writing ability and imagination to turn their character into a Mary Sue.

Also, Spikebelle >>> Sparity

2464501 You have confused Kirin (an equine with dragon-like features) with Longma (an ACTUAL dragon-equine hybrid.

As with Superman or Wolverine or any other Superhero, I beleive that it depends totally on how useful they are, what they are put through as a character and, most importantly, their character growth. It would also help, I think, if they take on things on a larger scale, like how Superman or Thor take on guys as strong as they are while Batman or Aquaman are still very useful to the team in almost any situation.

You, sir, were good with your points.

I think everything you just typed makes sense. I also agree.

As long as its not a "My original character is a Karin! here its back story, LOVE IT! " and more of a story that leads up to the karin's birth.

2464533 Point conceited. Care to elaborate on what you think a kirin would be like?

Also, Spikebelle >>> Sparity

That is also good, although I stick to my one personal favorite

2464541 Did I? Just let me brows google images...

Huh, I'll be damned. Looks like you got me.

Alright, just let me edit that...

2464560 it's a VERY common mistake with fans of this show

2464501 Nah. Rarity sucks with magic so the kirin wouldn't be that strong in magic, probably. Now... if you have Spike having a kid with the alicorn's:

OP as fuck.

Godlike.

Nightmare greed growth, that's all I have to say.

2464582 Would a Twilicorn child be super strong then?

Also, I personally like to think that the mix blood would use the dragons natural strength to boost magic... or something.

DBZ has kind of colored my views on hybrid power levels

2464642 Twilicorn child would also be haxed.

DBZ has kind of colored my views on hybrid power levels.

DBZ proved that hybrids have the potential to be stronger then the original sayians... but it never happens in the end. Goku and Vegeta were still way stronger then there children, in the end.

2464688 Because the kids didn't give a rats ass about training in peace time, where as Goku and Vegeta did.

Makes you wonder...

If Gohan kept up his training during those seven years, would you have been able to kill Dabura and Buu when they first showed up?

2464698 If Gohan trained the entire seven years, it wouldn't have even got that far. He would have taken out those two guys that absorbed his energy in the tournament. Gohan would have been way stronger then Goku; hell, I bet he would could have transformed into a super sayian three half-way through the seven years.

2464501
As you said it depends on how they're used. Nothing can be a mary sue by default it depends entirely on context. A mary sue isn't a character so much as a concept. When they have everything handed to them and no challenges they're a sue. If it was just because they were OP then Goku, everyone in Bleach, Naruto, you know what screw it EVERY ANIME PROTAGONIST EVER would be a mary sue. But no matter how strong they become there's always someone who comes along to present them a challenge. They have a challenge therefore they're not handed the victory (well they are due to story structure always having the hero win but in the story itself they work their butts off) and are there for not a sue. That's my take on it anyway.

2464560

Well, it really depends on who the pony parent of the Kirin (or Longma in this context) is. A Kirin born to an Earth Pony would have a very strong connection to the land alongside their draconic heritage. A Kirin born to a Pegasus Pony would have a very strong connection to the sky alongside their draconic heritage. A Kirin born to a Unicorn Pony would be able to harness their own magic and combine it with their draconic abilities. For the sake of trying to find an easy situation to make a Marty Stu, let's take Unicorn Kirins. Now, dragons are known for being vicious and feral by nature. Unicorns are able to use their internal energies to manipulate their surroundings and themselves. We already encounter the first problem that a Kirin is supposed to endure: conflicting biological philosophies. Unless if a Kirin is born in a very stable home environment, Kirins would have natural difficulty finding a balance between their magical heritage and their draconic heritage. They would have to struggle with their strong desires from the dragon aspect and their magical energies, which require internal peace of mind. Because of this internal struggle, they would genetically be mentally unbalanced until they come to terms of who they actually are. While Earth Pony and Pegasus Pony Kirins do not have Unicorn Pony-levels of Magical Reliance, they still have much Land-Magic/Sky-Magic Reliance that also puts Kirins in danger of mental instability. It's a legitimate problem that they would have, and how they would deal with it is what determines which Kirin characters are Mary Sues and which Kirin characters aren't.

For example, let's take a potential Sparity/Spikebelle offspring: The Kirin would live in a good environment surrounded by alot of love and affection. That eliminates the home environment requirement of mental instability. Yet, let's put that same Kirin in a public setting, like school. Kids are always cruel to creatures that they have no knowledge about, so by nature they would single them out. The only way that the Kirin would fit into this setting is if the kids know exactly what a Kirin is about beforehand. If the Kirin doesn't encounter any problems in this area without a legitimate explanation, then they are already put in the Mary Sue radar. Now, in the context of what they can do, Kirins would have a combined personality of ponies and dragons. Whichever parent or race they lean more towards, they would try to emulate that racial aspect to themselves. If it is split 50/50 or identify themselves as different from both, then they would have combinations of body changes they would be nervous about. Unless if the Kirin is educated on the aspects of Pony and Dragon Biology beforehand, then they will encounter these problems and not be able to deal with them effectively at first. If they immediately deal with them with no problem, then that's another example of being under the Mary Sue Radar. Finally, Kirins would have a unique potential because of their mixed heritage. Yet, having a unique potential doesn't mean that they will have the most superior potential. Take this within the context of the Red Mage: Red Mages can use both Black Magic and White Magic. Yet, they can never fully master one or the other. The Kirin would work the same way: They can fit the Pony aspect or the Dragon aspect, but they can never completely fit each aspect unless if there was some story-driven intervention of some kind. If a Kirin can completely fit into either or both categories off the bat, then they are a Mary Sue no questions asked.

I apologize if this is long, but this should be a profile on how a Kirin/Longma should act. Also, I can never take Sparity as a serious ship since it's really more of a crush on Spike's side of the situation that gradually grows because of some internal miscommunication within him.

2464501

Nothing is inherently "Mary Sue." Mary Sues come about when the difficulties they face don't actually challenge them - they defeat every obstacle way too easily - and/or they get everything they want without nearly enough effort.

A pony/dragon hybrid is fine as long as it has difficulty overcoming things that would reasonably challenge it as a character.

2464773 I actually appreciate the longer post

But remember, Spike thinks of himself more of a pony than anything else, so his child with Rarity or Sweetie would probably appreciate their heritage, but will probably consider him or herself more pony than anything else.

but besides that, it's Aquaman logic, right?

they can try and fit in one, the other, or neither, but never both.

2464856

While that is true, we always have to take genetic factors into it. Even Spike has given into dragon temptations even if he thinks of himself as a pony.

2464501
Nothing is automatically a Mary Sue. A good writer can even make a good story with the Twilight sparklepires (and I mean it; there are some very good Twilight fics out there), and a bad author can make even an ordinary earth pony or human into a Mary Sue. It all depends on how they're written. That said, there are certain markers that will make people unlikely to read your stories. I've never seen a story with a kirin in it, so they may be, or may be not. I don't know.

2464917
You refering to Twilight, or the other thing? Because I've read dozens of great stories with Twilight as the protagonist.

2464501

There is no such thing as a "Mary Sue by default". It's an inherently contextual phenomenon.

2465149
I mean, stories with a half-dragon protagonist. I've seen stories with Twilight Sparkle as a protagonist. Heck, I've wrote stories with Twilight Sparkle as a protagonist.

2464541 2464501

Neither is quite right because both are their own species, not a hybridization of anything (well they are hybrids, but can't get a longma from breeding a dragon and a horse. Longma's are born from longmas, the same way griffons don't come from lions and eagles having babies). To go further into it most legends don't mention longma as being born from a horse and dragon, but a few iranian one do and one of the few other longma born from a regular mare came from the mare drinking water from a river, so that longma had nothing to do with a dragon. You have to remember that these chimeric creatures are more magic then genetic and share these traits because of some weird magic origin, not genetics. Most longma came from the heavens. Same with kirin. It's like squares and rectangles. Pretty much every longma is a kirin, but every kirin isn't a longma.

The only real difference between Kirin and Longma is that a longma is strictly a dragon horse or a dragon pegasus; whereas, the term kirin could be used for a dragon unicorn, a dragon deer, a dragon horse ox, a dragon unicorn lion fish...etc...

So if you want to be fun, Scarecrow, call earth pony/ pegasus dragon hybrids longmas and unicorn dragons kirin.
-----

Because of the Kirin and Longma's mythology, having the character be in a large epic tale about gods, spirits, and adventures is IMO a fun direction. Unless you do the slice of life thing like Sweet as Lavender. Anyway, Kirin and Longma are usually powerful embodiments of natural forces.

IMO they are dangerous to everyone. Could be a deadly pregnancy like in Zestar Apple Flambe, not to mention they in my head canon they'd be quite similar to alicorns in principle. So yeah, they'd be powerful and unique, but that doesn't make a mary sue. Everyone has given you their thoughts on that so I won't repeat them.

2464917

I have a story with a kirin in it. Excellent idea, horrible execution. It was the first thing i'd ever written so it's pretty bad. I'll redo it one day though.

2464501 I once found an Onslaught of the Fire Kings Yu Gi Oh structure deck, and I think if Sparity were to produce offspring, it'd be too awesome like this.

Grown up, but yes. Rarity's white coat, Spike's green mane/scales, and the ability to manipulate green fire. I would read a story with that.

2464754

For shonen and comics you have to use "Syndrome Logic". In The Incredibles Syndrome said:

"If everyone is super, then no one is."

Same logic applies, if everyone can fly faster than light and destroy planets with a single punch... who is OP?

2464773

Excellent points. Some of the specific examples would only apply to certain stories and your headcanon, but the examples got the point across.

2465550 to be honest, I don't think an equine and a dragon could produce offspring naturally. and that's where Zecora's magic comes in...

2465721 In the story I'm going to write, there's a roughly one in one thousand chance of a pony/dragon union will create a kirin/longma.

Spike and Rarity had two, and they tested that statistic themselves.

Rarity swears a lot.

That joke is going to be in there

2465748 but he's a reptile (that means he has two penises, btw), and she's a mammal...

2465622
My point still stands. Everyone would need to be considered a sue therefore there are no sues. But my main point was they're there to provide an obstacle with equel or greater power for them to overcome. I mean what of Goku fought Freeza with the same power he had fighting Buu? Freeza would have been dead and Goku could have escaped Namic with time to spare. But he had to train in between the fights becoming stronger so they needed to make a stronger foe for him to fight. So Cell coulda kicked Freeza's butt and Buu to Cell. (Keep in mind I've only seen bits and pieces of the anime with most information I have filled in by Team Four Star so I may have a slightly fuzzy view of how it really happened but I think you get what I'm saying.)

2465761 Okay, why does being a reptile mean to Penisis?!

I see that everywhere, but I never see an explanation. Is that just reptile biology?

2465798 yep. it's called a hemipenis

2465721

Neither do I, but like you said: Magic! Kirin and Longma are magical beings, so if they were born from a dragon and a pony it would be like a jesus baby I believe. More soul/magic melding into life than flesh and blood conception.

2465796

I was agreeing with you while saying in so many words that you can't really call shonen and comic characters OP because every one around them and their challenges are equally as powerful. Calling something overpowered in terms of story is literally exactly what a sue is. Something about them is overpowering the story and bending it in their favor. Like you I believe it's more of a concept than an actual thing. DBZ never had a problem because of what you just said.

Now in Bleach, Aizen was a villain sue. But that's a whole 'nother issue there.

2465862 Huh. Well now I know, and knowing is...

Ugh. Not using on of my fav. jokes for this.

But I guess Zecoras magic is a good reason for them to have kids.

I'm still not doing it for the sake of the joke, but still, for future reference, it's a good idea

2465863
Sorry on some level I knew that so I don't know why I felt the need to explain myself. But yeah mary sue is a term that's thrown around far to often and I don't think a lot of people saying it even understand what the term actually means. I mean not to say that Stormhide the alicorn king isn't a mary sue but unless you've read the story and know what he's up against you can't call him one. Now when you read the story and it talks about how he defeated Doomsong Destroyer of Universes by looking at him then you can say it.

2464501

If the endless supply of HiE stories that hit the main page are an indication, you can make people like any idea if you execute it well enough.

You'll probably have to deal with a certain degree of flak just for making the attempt, but it sounds like you have some idea of what to avoid already.

Others have mentioned this, and I think it's a pretty good idea; you might want to make it so your Kirin has difficulty fitting in. Despite it's abilities, ponies aren't probably going to revere it like they would an alicorn, I'm sure it would seem quite strange to them.

I'd also be conservative with how much magic you give it. Rarity's abilities are mostly centered around her cutie mark. People would likely call foul if your character is super durable, can breath fire, and is pulling off stuff you'd normally only see Twilight manage.

2464582

Rarity sucks with magic so the kirin wouldn't be that strong in magic, probably

Rarity can screw with the weather for miles, and levitate dozens of separate, dissimilar objects which, judging by Magic Duel, isn't easy. While singing. She's also pretty good with illusion spells, judging by her fashion shows. And gem finding. And transmutation. And making topiaries.

Considering canonically speaking an average unicorn knows one or two spells related to their talent, Rarity seems to be very far above average.

2464501

For me, I always assumed kirins were a native race to the fabled "Neighsia", and are just as commonplace as unicorns are in Equestria due to their basically being the 'chinese unicorn'.

While it's certainly possible they can face sue/stu damnation as an inter-species offspring(often any drastic interspecies offspring backstory is commonly used in sue/stus of any place or story), within the context of being a native race to another place where they're pretty common they can often avoid this.

nah.

2466357

This goes back to my ideas on cutie marks and how talent and the amount of magic a unicorn has access to is not related at all.

2466212

I'd also be conservative with how much magic you give it. Rarity's abilities are mostly centered around her cutie mark. People would likely call foul if your character is super durable, can breath fire, and is pulling off stuff you'd normally only see Twilight manage.

It's all about the story. But then again, my stories are usually action/adventure so my characterizations are more action guy/action girl versions of everypony. Everyone is usually buffed up and "training = infinite growth" is a motif in some of my works. Like for example, my kirin has several traits unique to him, several unicorn traits and several dragon traits. He pulls magic stunts far beyond anything canon Twilight has done, but at the same time the Twilight in my story is capable of magical feats beyond anything he could ever do.

Others have mentioned this, and I think it's a pretty good idea; you might want to make it so your Kirin has difficulty fitting in. Despite it's abilities, ponies aren't probably going to revere it like they would an alicorn, I'm sure it would seem quite strange to them.

Depends on the world you build, if your kirin is presented as something mundane then what you explained will happen. But i your world lore has longma and kirin legends placing on the level of alicorns or above then scholars/ the princesses/ well read ponies would know what the deal is. And treat them as such. As usual, it's all about the story you're writing