I write a story. I publish it here. People read it. Some readers upvote it. Very few leave comments, and most of those just to say they liked the story and sometimes what they liked about it. And I'm not really complaining about that kind of comments, because receiving praise is always nice. But still, it doesn't really help me improve. I myself can see dozens of things that are wrong with the story; I need to know which of them actually bother readers.

So I went looking for groups that could help me get some more substantive feedback on my story. I'm somewhat new here, and perhaps I don't know the effective way to search -- but it seems all options I can find are either defunct (looks great on the front page, but then it turns out that the last activity was 63 weeks ago) or not accepting submissions due to review backlogs. Several also have as their purpose to find good stories to recommend rather than to help authors, so I'm reluctant to abuse their limited resources in order to get feedback for myself. (I've spent hours drooling over the public rejection notices from Twilight's Library, wishing I could get one of those for my fic But it wouldn't feel right).

The basic problem with these groups is that they depend on having a staff of trusted reviewers/commenters give feedback, and there will always be more hopeful authors wanting feedback than there are approved reviewers with time to spare. However, while I would love to get a quality review from someone who passed the selection process at one of those groups, I could do with less. What I need is really just someone to read through the story and tell me how it sucks the most. That could be someone like myself -- and I'm willing to do so for someone else in return.

Thus, how about a group for swapping feedback on stories in a somewhat structured way? Here's how I imagine it would work: Before you can add a story to the feedback queue, you need to give feedback to 5 stories already in the queue. The feedback is either a comment of the story, with at least 250 words that describe problems with it (in a polite and respectful way), or, in case you can't find any problems to point out, a fave and a blog post of similar length gushing about how this is a completely flawless story. After you post references to your five pieces of feedback, an admin will add your story to the group. Stories will be removed from the group after they get 6 feedbacks. Perhaps there will be a bonus for commenting on stories that have been in the queue the longest, such that ones with off-putting descriptions still have a chance.

Does something like this already exist? Or has it been tried and failed?

The closest I can find is Authors Helping Authors, but it looks like their tit-for-tat review system might be defunct -- at least I couldn't easily find any examples of it being used recently. And it's based on direct reciprocity: You have to choose who you want to review your story and can then compel them to do so by reviewing one of theirs. That's a bit too personal for me -- what I write is (so far) fetish clop, and while I'm okay with putting it out for people to enjoy if they can, it would stretch the boundaries of propriety to pick any particular person and tell them, in effect, "read this and then tell me if you came".

3532051
You might want to just try to rekindle Authors Helping Authors.
Even suggesting your new system, there.

Their membership is large enough that you'd have trouble matching it if you made a new group.

So it might make for a free (and huge) head start.

3532062
Hmm, that's a ... blindingly obvious idea.

Bit apprehensive about waltzing in there and say, you're doing it wrong, here's how it should work, though. But, yes, a natural place to start if it turns out I have to do things myself.

Right now, I'm still hoping the next comment here will tell me that something sufficiently close to my needs already exists, though ...

3532051

(I've spent hours drooling over the public rejection notices from Twilight's Library, wishing I could get one of those for my fic But it wouldn't feel right).

Those are rejection notices, and not necessarily the best way to get feedback in the first place. They won't tell you everything that may be wrong with your fic, only why they rejected it.

There's an 'looking for editors' group, but I've yet to try it out. I don't know if there's a 'review-tag' game in Authors Helping Authors, but if there isn't, then that would probably be a useful thing to start up.

There's also Rage Reviews . . . which picks apart stories.

3532051
A group I used to be of on Deviantart back in the day tried a method that was pretty much exactly yours. Basically, no one wanted to put in five reviews in order to get one out, so the folder saw next-to-no traffic. The Authors Helping Authors being defunct is probably an indication that even a 1-for-1 exchange is unlikely to gain a lot of traction. Unfortunately, people are selfish and reciprocation is the exception, not the norm.

Not trying to be a downer or anything; that's my firsthand experience with it.

3532051

I've spent hours drooling over the public rejection notices from Twilight's Library, wishing I could get one of those for my fic

Wouldn't you rather have an acceptance notice instead? Sorry, couldn't resist.

But more seriously, I think you have an uphill struggle on your hands (go mixed metaphors!) to get something like your proposal going. I do review stories on a fairly regular basis (five or so a week) but they rarely lead to my getting any back. I'm happy if the author responds to my review at all, really. At worst, it's a way of getting my name out there, and a few people may look, click on my name and read a story of mine. One or two may even comment, but I don't expect many to.

3532477
Seconding this. There was a period of time where I tried to do at least a short review for everything I read and the majority of the time it didn't even get acknowledged. The few replies I did get back were generally people arguing against my review to justify their story decisions. All I could really hope was that someone had at least found them useful and just didn't say anything, but who knows?

3532051

Before you can add a story to the feedback queue, you need to give feedback to 5 stories already in the queue.

Thing is, people are lazy. You see how Authors Helping Authors is struggling, and their policy is only a one to one ratio.

It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't see it going anywhere.

3532051 Authors Helping Authors had a good system in theory, but there was no way to enforce the trade off. I had one person review my story and I reviewed for them in turn, but that was one instance of five reviews I did for AhA. (Thanks again, Regina, btw. ) So one out of five, not good odds. If you want, I can look over a story for you if you want. I can't promise an instant review or anything, but I'll look into it for you.

3532166 3532681
Well, if it worked, the ratio would be "put 5 feedbacks in, get 5 out", because the story would stay in the queue until it had accumulated that many.

3532477
Well, yes and no. Being accepted would be a nice signal boost of course, but I don't think their acceptance notices come with nice tips on which of the awkward points in the story (which I can see, but I don't know if anyone else can) stick out the most.

3532477 3532584
But here you're talking about unsolicited feedback, right? One might expect more of a reaction from someone who explicitly requested some what-is-least-good-about-this feedback.

3532689
Well, one of the structural problems in AHA is that the review you get back when you write one is supposed to come from the guy whose story you just reviewed -- who now has no incentive to work within the system. In my proposal, once you're in the queue, the feedback you get would come from people after you, who're still eager to get in. It's a Ponzi scheme for story feedback!

Also, thanks for the offer, but please note the last sentence in the OP.

3532150
Hm, wasn't aware of Rage Reviews. They're active and not closed (but have a long backlog anyway). It looks like their primary goal is to be funny at the (usually deserved) expense of the story. That would give me a nagging suspicion that whatever they pointed out was not what actually stuck out the most, but what could be complained about in the most entertaining way.

All in all I can see from the responses I should probably file this idea in the "they can't all be winners" folder.

3532681

Thing is, people are lazy. You see how Authors Helping Authors is struggling, and their policy is only a one to one ratio.
It's an interesting idea, but I honestly can't see it going anywhere.

3532689

Authors Helping Authors had a good system in theory, but there was no way to enforce the trade off. I had one person review my story and I reviewed for them in turn, but that was one instance of five reviews I did for AhA. (Thanks again, Regina, btw. ) So one out of five, not good odds. If you want, I can look over a story for you if you want. I can't promise an instant review or anything, but I'll look into it for you.

I'm still getting my bearings on how all the forums and groups work around here, but at WA (Fanfiction.net forum) there's a review-tag game that works out really well, despite the fact that everyone is reviewing out-of-fandom, the admin has been AWOL for over two years, and there's only one active mod.

Basically, you review the person the last poster, kind of like a conga line.

Problems arose when the game started to become more and more active. Newer and lesser experienced writers would come in and post reviews that would barely fit the letter of the law in regards to the minimum requirements. The game ended up being split into two, a shorter game, and a longer game. There's also a discussion thread regarding both, and any time a problem arises (such as a story being posted in Spanish) or complaints are to be had, they are handled there. That's not to say that participates are shy about letting a reviewer know that their review isn't up-to-par.

3532796

Hm, wasn't aware of Rage Reviews. They're active and not closed (but have a long backlog anyway). It looks like their primary goal is to be funny at the (usually deserved) expense of the story. That would give me a nagging suspicion that whatever they pointed out was not what actually stuck out the most, but what could be complained about in the most entertaining way.
All in all I can see from the responses I should probably file this idea in the "they can't all be winners" folder.

You're correct in that they mostly roast fics, but those things that 'stick out' and those things that 'can be complained about in the most entertaining way' are one and the same. Honestly, I don't particularly agree with the ideas and principals held by it's members in regards to reviewing, but the forum is geared towards letting off steam and complaining about fics without being persecuted for it by the authors. The stuff that they bring up in their reviews really are the very same things that pissed them off the most.

My only concern is that they may be nicer to authors who submit their stories.

Anyway, there's no strings attached to submitting a story for review other than the waiting period, or the chance that a story may never be reviewed. I plan on revising my one-shot and submitting it to the group, myself. It would be foolish of me to only seek feedback from the group, but it would also be foolish to only seek feedback from one source in general. Most foolish still, would be sending my fic to Twilight's Library before having others look at it; that would be going straight to the goal. Besides that, I've already done that once before.

3532051 I can testify, that Authors Helping Authors is, in fact, not defunct. I've exchanged reviews just a week ago in accordance with said group's rules.

If you form another group for review exchange, you can already count me as one of its members.

As for the system, I like 3532917's suggestion. However, there would have to be some tweaking done, since reviewing a one shot is different than reviewing a whole novel. That's the main issue that I see with that system.

My suggestion would be in the lines of Time bank. I've used the system in RL and can testify to its practicality. The way this goes is, every member gets a thread where he links his reviews and words of said story.

Review bank
For every review you do, you get as many 'word currency' as there are words in said story. The one that received your review loses that many points.

If you want to get a review, you have to do a review for a story of someone that has spare points. With those points you can then purchase a review on your own story.

The best thing about this system is, that everypony can choose which stories they review. Reviewing a story of the person that gave you a review would be more of an accident then a rule. You would usually get a review from a different person than the one whose story you reviewed.

There are ways of starting a Review bank:
a) Every member automatically gets 2000 word points (this is similar to the way that RL Time banks do it)
b) Allow users to have up to 2000 negative word points, so that they can receive a review before they give one.
c) Have a week of free reviews. People would get positive word points by doing reviews, but nopony would get negative points at this time period. This would ensure you a lot of new members early on and it would secure word points liquidity.

3533118 That... Might actually work.

3533118

However, there would have to be some tweaking done, since reviewing a one shot is different than reviewing a whole novel. That's the main issue that I see with that system.

They don't review whole stories at all. It's either a one-shot, or a chapter. A 20k chapter may be a problem, but there could be a rule limiting how much a reviewer is required to review for such chapters.

I don't think such a thing would be, or should be a be-all, end-all to getting feedback, or anything like that, just another tool at a writer's disposal. It's not going to be an attractive option for everyone, either.

I might be throwing out an idea that's already in practice somewhere around here, but I'm also used to critique threads. The forum doesn't allow for self-plugs or postings of entire stories but it does allow for threads for critiquing excerpts up to 500 words. People tend to use these for specific scenes that they are iffy about, and there's a thread for just about every genre. It's been a while since someone used one of those threads, but when they do, more than one person will pick apart the writing.

Such things work well over there, but I think they would work even better here, because people could actually offer concrit on things like characterization, which doesn't translate quite as well cross-fandom. Fimfiction, even without the notifications, is also a bit more active, from what I've seen.

Well, if it worked, the ratio would be "put 5 feedbacks in, get 5 out", because the story would stay in the queue until it had accumulated that many.

Hmmm, that is a better, but as I said before, 1-to-1 is still a bit of a crapshoot.

But here you're talking about unsolicited feedback, right? One might expect more of a reaction from someone who explicitly requested some what-is-least-good-about-this feedback.

Fair enough.

Well, one of the structural problems in AHA is that the review you get back when you write one is supposed to come from the guy whose story you just reviewed -- who now has no incentive to work within the system. In my proposal, once you're in the queue, the feedback you get would come from people after you, who're still eager to get in. It's a Ponzi scheme for story feedback!

This assumes that people want to get into the system, though. I guess if the group has a really good track record, it'll probably bring people, but I can imagine some people not wanting to make the first investment in case theirs doesn't get chosen (and since it'll be free pick, there's no guarantee people will pick up fic X). I think this could work, but only if it gains that crucial very early momentum.

Review bank

Huh, that's a really interesting way to do it. I think that's actually a much more fair way than fic-for-fic, actually. I still have similar concerns to the above that people might not want to make that first investment, but also think it could work under similar early momentum conditions.

3533118
That would work for me. My main concern would be that accounting for everyone's bits might be a lot of work.

Inevitably when people leave the system (after they've gotten the feedback they need?) they'll take some unused small change with them, so there needs to be some mechanism that injects bits into the system to offset that. Your solutions (a) and (b) -- which are actually equivalent except for where we put the zero point of everyone's balance -- would take care of this. I don't think the sign-up bonus should be large enough to get a fic reviewed without putting something in first, though -- then I'm afraid a lot of people would just take their free review and run.

As a practical matter, it should be easy to see which stories have enough points to be reviewed now, so perhaps it should cost bits to get a fic moved into an "active for review" folder, rather than only at the point where someone reviews it. What if two people simultaneously review something that can only afford one review? I think they should just both get paid; that would be an additional way to inject liquidity into the system.

On the other hand, someone has to get something for free in the start-up phase to get everything rolling. One might give, say, a dozen early adopters a free ride (like any self-respecting pyramid scheme).

3533200
Of course if people don't want in, it won't work at all. I'm assuming, based on introspection, that they will.

3533309
Well, they might want in, but be suspicious of actually getting paid back for the effort that they have to pay up front, which is why I said the early reputation of people reliably getting what they paid for would be crucial.

3533309

My main concern would be that accounting for everyone's bits might be a lot of work.

Everyone would account for their own bits. Everypony would have his/her own thread. When a person A would do a review for person B, the person A would post a link to said review on own thread and on the thread of the person B. At his/her own thread, he/she would also increase the sum of the collected points (in comment and on the thread title) and would decrease the points on the thread of the person B (person B would have to do it on the title of the thread at some point).

As you can see, no third party investment would be needed.

I don't think the sign-up bonus should be large enough to get a fic reviewed without putting something in first, though -- then I'm afraid a lot of people would just take their free review and run.

Here's one idea that would mitigate that. If a person has negative points, then said person cannot put his fics in the requested folder. Everyone would then be motivated to increase their points to above zero, so that they could put their fics in requested folder whenever they would want a review.

With solution b) you first need to get yourself 'above the surface' before you can request reviews. You can still PM people to do a review on your story, but you just can't use the folder feature.

As a practical matter, it should be easy to see which stories have enough points to be reviewed now,

A sticky thread for every member with the number of current points would do the trick.

What if two people simultaneously review something that can only afford one review? I think they should just both get paid; that would be an additional way to inject liquidity into the system.

They both get payed and that person gets negative points from both of them. I see no problem with getting two or more reviews. It would be advisable to set up the trades in advance, before the deal is made. You just write on one's thread: "I'll do your fic Twilight Eats Peaches - Reloaded tomorrow".

On the other hand, someone has to get something for free in the start-up phase to get everything rolling. One might give, say, a dozen early adopters a free ride (like any self-respecting pyramid scheme).

My preference would be: Everypony starts with 0 points. Allow for 2000 negative points. Allow the usage of folders only to those that have enough positive points to pay for the review.

Whoever would want to earn points would automatically check the folders. In practice, there would probably be 0 fics in the folder most of the time, since every fic would get instantly reviewed because people would want to earn points so that they could move their own fic into the folder.

I hope that you go ahead with this idea. I wish I had more time to create the group myself. I've worked in such a system before and I know that this could work. If you decide to make the Review Bank Group, you have me as a member and you have my free advices at your disposal. However, I sadly don't have enough time to be a founder or an administrator.

3532051
I made a blog post about the difference between a reviewer and an editor. As I noted there, the best kind of feedback you get is not from a reviewer, but an editor, and ultimately, feedback in editing is much more useful as you can actually fix things and improve your story. Sure, you can still edit stuff post-publication, but... there's much less incentive to go into depth on something which has already been published. And a lot of the time, that's the most valuable kind of feedback, the kind which iteratively makes your story better.

And the thing is, most people aren't very good editors. The people who are most desperately in need of help are also the ones who are the least well-equipped to give good help. The best editors on the site tend to be the best authors as well, who have little interest in reading over beginner's stories - they want to read over each others' stories to make them better. And it makes sense via the ethic of reciprocity as well - I mean, if you help someone else out, they're expected to help you out as well, but if you're a beginning writer, what help are you really going to be able to give a good writer? The ideal editor is someone who is about as good as you are or who is slightly better than you are, or, alternatively, someone who is very good at something you're not very good at and vice-versa.

Ultimately the best way to get help is by having friends who you help out and who help you out. All these structured systems ultimately are trying to get strangers to help you out, but the best thing you can do is cultivate a relationship with one or more other writers who you can get to help you and who you yourself can help.

3533635

The ideal editor is someone who is about as good as you are or who is slightly better than you are

I play review tags and such, but when it comes to actually working with an editor/pre-reader/beta, I go to my twin brother. Before anyone says anything about family not being able to be objective enough, let me tell ya, he's kind of an asshole.

Otherwise, I'd feel like a nuisance going to somebody that I know is good/decent, and I'm afraid that that an open request would be a bit of a crap-shoot.

A forum regular I know started up a forum for matching up authors with betas/editors of appropriate skill levels, seeing as people come into the writing forum all the time looking for them, with no luck. Unfortunately, forum-advertisement kind of really sucks over there. No trending list or anything like that, and RP forums pretty much eat everything.

3533635
Ah, that mythical creature, the editor.

I did read your blog post, but that seems to be a significant investment in time, skills and effort that I have no particular hope of getting anyone qualified to spend on little old me. And as you say, there are not enough of them to go around, so it makes sense to try to figure out something that can help the losers in the lottery get by.

(Though I don't think I would want to let anyone actually edit my story. It's all nice and fine to give comments and point out problems that I can then decide how (and whether!) to fix, or even to suggest possible solutions. But as long as nobody is paying me to write, I'm not going to just hand them the keys to my prose and let them modify it to conform to their particular style preferences).

Ultimately the best way to get help is by having friends who you help out and who help you out.

Sure. But some of us just don't have the social skills to make the kind of friends that are needed here, who will take time to read the story and not think the friendly thing is to respond with just "nice, I really like that!"

For those who can do that, more power to them. They don't need a structured system, perhaps.

But even if I did have such friends, I would still want to know how people who aren't my friends receive the story. I'm thinking of it more as a focus group I'd run my story through to see if I manage to make the impression with readers I intended to make, than as someone who know better than me what is wrong with the story.

3534192

Though I don't think I would want to let anyone actually edit my story. It's all nice and fine to give comments and point out problems that I can then decide how (and whether!) to fix, or even to suggest possible solutions. But as long as nobody is paying me to write, I'm not going to just hand them the keys to my prose and let them modify it to conform to their particular style preferences

There is a feature in Gdocs called 'suggestion mode' or something. It works like 'record changes' in word documents: Someone can change the text, striking through what you originally wrote and what they wrote highlighted in another color. This way, you can examine the two next to each other, and then decide if you want to accept or discard the suggestion. I also think this is the superior way to learn from being edited, since just having someone do the changes without alerting you to what was wrong isn't gonna help you in your writing that much.

3534258 This whole heartedly. When the suggestion feature came up, my editor started using it, and I have found it to be extremely useful. Actually seeing the suggested change right next to each other, does help me see what I did wrong and/or what I could have written differently to make it better.

3534258
I've used it in a collab project. It works well for trivial typo fixes and style suggestions.

But for more high-level problems ("this fact was not properly introduced", "that blatant infodump is jarring", "the description here is boring and not terribly relevant", "the action sequence feels rushed", "wait, how is Spike suddenly present?" or even "that doesn't sound like a word Applejack would use") I would much rather have someone just tell me what it is that bothers them, than having them try to fix it by changing the story, and then I'd have to reconstruct what it is they're trying to remedy, and then probably decide I really want to fix it in a different way anyway.

3532051 Going to be a bit self-promotive. The Pleasant Review and Commentary Group, where I work, is still active. Folder submissions are in lockdown, but we do give helpful advice and we are active.

3534429 Well, I've yet to meet someone who thinks it is their job to outright rewrite passages of a story they're editing. I'd actually advise anyone against this, since the writing voice and style will be different, and being inconsistent in that is never a good thing. An editor's job is to point out these things you describe, not fix them themselves.

The editor I've been working with on my latest story did suggestions for awkward sentence structure, word choice, repetitiveness, etc (a copy-editor's job), and at the same time commented on passages that I didn't handle well, explaining what he felt was off about it (editor's job). It worked out really, really well.

If you'd like to try working with an editor, you might want to have a look at the group Overly Extensive Editors. Haven't worked with them myself before, but I have heard rather positive feedback. Also, they don't force any editor to take on a story, so you won't shove your story down anyone's throat, which seems to be one major concern of yours.

3532051 I don't know much about authors helping authors, but I do know if you want your story ripped apart, go to Rage Reviews

3534429 For the "High level problems", googledrive also has a comment feature. I have my editor highlight sections of text and sometimes leave a more vague comment such as, "You need to rework this, the flow doesn't feel right in this dialogue exchange." Or, "I have no idea what you are trying to say here, reword it so it makes sense." For those types of larger problems in your story, the editor will actually shy away from making suggestions because they are unsure of the exact feeling or expression you were trying to get across.

When the problem is less complicated, my editor will leave a suggestion or two as to how to reword something, because he knows the emotion or tone I am trying to convey and he thinks his suggestion might be worth taking a look at. The key of course is to make sure that the editor understands that you, as the author, should fix the problems and make the changes in your story, that's how you learn. The only thing I'll give free reign to an editor with is blatant typos which I should have caught anyways, and when he goes through the chapter, he still is sure to notify me that there were some that he went ahead and fixed.

I do understand having an amount of hesitation with getting an editor. It took me about a year before I started using them. I had wanted to and did write my novel on my own to see if I could do it. It's great learning experience, but at some point, you need to have a few extra sets of eyes and opinions to really polish your story and help you learn a lot more as an author.

3534434
That's nice, and by all means keep up the good work. Congratulations to the authors who're lucky enough to find it open for submissions when it is.

However, I think feedback will always be in short supply if we only count those few who will commit to provide it on a regular basis and become staff reviewers in a group like that.

3534476

Well, I've yet to meet someone who thinks it is their job to outright rewrite passages of a story they're editing. I'd actually advise anyone against this, since the writing voice and style will be different, and being inconsistent in that is never a good thing. An editor's job is to point out these things you describe, not fix them themselves.

Perhaps I'm having a terminology problem here. I can see why a proofreader or copy editor would get a better workflow by having edit access to (a copy of) the story -- but why would someone whose job is merely to point out things rather than fix them themself ever need to edit the story?

If you'd like to try working with an editor, you might want to have a look at the group Overly Extensive Editors.

Thanks for the reference. I might look into it if/when I find myself again with a not-yet-submitted story that satisfy their length criterion.

But of course, for the purpose of this thread the point is still that there aren't enough of those special wonderful people to go around.

3534690
Rage Reviews was mentioned further up. The main problem seems to be that they have several years worth of backlog for requested reviews.

3533471
Thanks for the support and the ideas. I'll let it stew for at least a few days before I do anything rash, though.

Whoever would want to earn points would automatically check the folders. In practice, there would probably be 0 fics in the folder most of the time, since every fic would get instantly reviewed because people would want to earn points so that they could move their own fic into the folder.

I'm not so hot about that. I think it should be easy for someone to show up and find a story to react to and start earning points. If one needs to camp out in the folder until someone gets to add a story and it gets grabbed immediately, that will be quite a barrier to entry. To me it would mean that there are too few stories available in the folder, and I would consider it time to hand out some freebies as a stimulus.

There's a tradeoff between "you need to wait for a story to show up in the folder before you can earn points" and "you need to wait for someone to pick up your story from the folder". I would prefer tending towards the latter; the former would just make it too easy for everyone to shrug and give up at the outset where they don't yet have a time investment in the system.

Perhaps I'm having a terminology problem here. I can see why a proofreader or copy editor would get a better workflow by having edit access to (a copy of) the story -- but why would someone whose job is merely to point out things rather than fix them themself ever need to edit the story?

This does sound like a terminology thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the term editor and editing is being used in the sense of how professionals do it. Those editors don't actually change things directly either. The classic iconic example is the stack of manuscript pages with red ink penned all over it. It doesn't mean turning on the edit sharing option in a GDoc (a side note to this is that I have seen the odd author actually do this and it is universally a bad idea).

3534192

(Though I don't think I would want to let anyone actually edit my story. It's all nice and fine to give comments and point out problems that I can then decide how (and whether!) to fix, or even to suggest possible solutions. But as long as nobody is paying me to write, I'm not going to just hand them the keys to my prose and let them modify it to conform to their particular style preferences).

If I were a professional novelist, it would be one thing, but as it stands, I very much want my writing to be my own. I don't want to get a revised document back from someone else and find that they've got some of my words out and have put in some of their own. This is why when one works with an editor, they should make it clear as to exactly what they're trying to get out of it. There are those who are perfectly fine with someone else taking a scalpel to their work, but your concerned most certainly isn't uncommon.

Any time I 'edit' my brother's work, or anyone else's, I'm really just giving really extensive feedback an suggestions. I'll take the story to a word-pad document, and I'll start commenting in blue (red is kind of harsh on the eyes.) If I think something should be deleted, I'll say so, and I'll leave it up to the author to decide. If I have a suggested re-write for a passage, I'll write it (in blue) along with what's already been written. The author can either delete their own version, my version, or rewrite one of either.

3535330

I think it should be easy for someone to show up and find a story to react to and start earning points.

Every member would have links to his stories that he/she wants to have reviewed on their dedicated thread. If somepony would want to find a fic to review, he/she could just scroll the threads and find someone with enough points to pay for it.

It would also work in the opposite way. Those that would want a review but would not have enough points, could scroll through threads and find someone with negative points. They would then PM him/her and offer a story to be reviewed. That person would earn points if he/she agreed to it.

If you wanted a review, you could get it even if you didn't have enough points (you'd have to invest some work, though). If you wanted to give a review, you could do it even if there was no story in the folders.

3535438

I have seen the odd author actually do this and it is universally a bad idea

I give public editing rights on my Google Docs for all my one shots. I've never had any problems. It doesn't make much difference if you see changes in the comments or in the revision history.

3536544
Hmmm, maybe you're just lucky. Or the people I know unlucky. One person had all the text in his file deleted (recoverable, of course, but that wasn't a good moment, to say the least). The others were more of a "too many cooks" situation.

3536776 That's what revision history is there for. You can recover everything with one click, even if everything gets deleted.

3536877
Didn't make it any less demoralizing for him.

3540807 I don't get that. It's like having the light in the bathroom turned off by someone while you're taking a dump. Would you really go like:
a) "Bo-ho, you made me blind. That was really demoralizing, I'll never use public bathrooms again."
or do you go more like:
b) "Hey, that was a jerk thing to do! You're lucky I can locate my anus, and wipe it by relying on touch alone."

3540823
I don't think that analogy really works, especially since I'm sure most public bathrooms (of sufficient size) don't allow easy access to the light switch in order to prevent people from be jackasses about it. It might fit better if say, he was the guy running the washroom and after complaints of some asshole playing with the lights, he got the switch moved to the washroom's maintenance room instead. Even then, it's still not a great fit.

I also find the implication that taking preventative measures after a problematic incident is somehow being a wuss rather illogical.

3534192
This just makes me think of this:

Anwyay, the thing is... well, you're trying to set up an exchange with people to find people to basically do exactly this, and yet you're saying that your own contribution would be negligible. Given that the entire purpose of said group is to find people to help other people out, and using some sort of system to keep track of things such that everyone has to help out everyone else... well, isn't that a bit, well, pointless, if the main group of people who would participate are the ones who are least helpful?

Sure. But some of us just don't have the social skills to make the kind of friends that are needed here, who will take time to read the story and not think the friendly thing is to respond with just "nice, I really like that!"

Well, it is really less about social skills and more about finding the right people to ask for help. Befriending other authors helps, as does just volunteering to help other people who seem good at this stuff and then later on asking them for help.

I pretty much just ask people for help at random. Some folks are helpful, and I ask them again. Others are less so. But it doesn't stop me from asking both random folks and specific folks. I take shots in the dark and ask friends.

(Though I don't think I would want to let anyone actually edit my story. It's all nice and fine to give comments and point out problems that I can then decide how (and whether!) to fix, or even to suggest possible solutions. But as long as nobody is paying me to write, I'm not going to just hand them the keys to my prose and let them modify it to conform to their particular style preferences).

Well, when I do editing, I use suggestion mode and comments; that's usually the way of things. I don't really give editing access to my documents to other people for my actual stories; I give them commenting abilities.

3541446

Anwyay, the thing is... well, you're trying to set up an exchange with people to find people to basically do exactly this, and yet you're saying that your own contribution would be negligible.

Um, wait, where am I saying that? I'm quite sure I haven't intended to say anything like that.

Given that the entire purpose of said group is to find people to help other people out, and using some sort of system to keep track of things such that everyone has to help out everyone else... well, isn't that a bit, well, pointless, if the main group of people who would participate are the ones who are least helpful?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Could you be a bit more explicit? What is "the main group of people who would participate" you're talking about?

I pretty much just ask people for help at random. Some folks are helpful, and I ask them again. Others are less so. But it doesn't stop me from asking both random folks and specific folks. I take shots in the dark and ask friends.

Again, if you have friends that you can ask, that's good for you. I'm a bit confused though, because it sounds like you think that is an argument against making a system that people who are not so fortunate could use.

3541507
Well, I didn't have any friends either before I started talking to people.

The question is, why do said groups always fail? It seems like it is, to me, a lack of interest in proactively going out and helping other people, and a lack of interest by people in getting help from the people who join said groups. I joined a group for doing reciprocal reviews, but I've never had anyone post a review on one of my stories from said group, which would obligate me to give them feedback on one of their stories.

I'm not sure how your solution solves this problem.

3541517
You didn't answer where you think I said that my contribution would be negligible,

Well, I didn't have any friends either before I started talking to people.

You have pointed out that you have those skills multiple times now. Congratulations, I'm happy for you. It must be nice. But that isn't a reason why people who don't have the skills you have shouldn't try to help each other.

The question is, why do said groups always fail? It seems like it is, to me, a lack of interest in proactively going out and helping other people, and a lack of interest by people in getting help from the people who join said groups. I joined a group for doing reciprocal reviews, but I've never had anyone post a review on one of my stories from said group, which would obligate me to give them feedback on one of their stories.

Yes, as I described in the OP, direct reciprocity doesn't work. People are already not eager to help, and it is a barrier to using the scheme that you cannot start to help out without imposing obligations on those you help. That's an additional psychological cost to the scheme, not an incentive to participate.

In my proposal, when you give feedback to someone and start earning points, you can do so without worrying about imposing on the guy you're giving feedback to -- because he has already paid his due by helping someone else.

3541559

You have pointed out that you have those skills multiple times now. Congratulations, I'm happy for you. It must be nice. But that isn't a reason why people who don't have the skills you have shouldn't try to help each other.

How are you going to help other people out if you don't have social skills, though? It is an inherently social activity.

The way I developed social skills was by... forcing myself to do so. I used to be bad at public speaking. So I forced myself to do a bunch of public speaking and now I'm fairly good at it.

I have a hard time asking people for help, but I struggle through and do it anyway. It isn't easy to ask people for help even for me. But I do it because I need to do it, and because it isn't some horrible social sin to ask people for help, especially when you're willing to be helpful in return.

I'm not saying you're a bad person or whatever for forming the group; I'm just saying that sort of group has been formed many times before and they all seem to get bogged down for similar reasons.

You didn't answer where you think I said that my contribution would be negligible,

That was the impression you gave me, that you "lacked the skills" to do such things. I didn't mean to intimate anything negative about you; that was just the impression I got of you talking about yourself when you were talking about editors being a rare breed and not really having the skills necessary to participate in that sort of reciprocal altruism. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.

In my proposal, when you give feedback to someone and start earning points, you can do so without worrying about imposing on the guy you're giving feedback to -- because he has already paid his due by helping someone else.

The problem is, as has been noted in such things in the real world, what usually ends up happening is a small subset of people gives a lot more than they get out of the system, and that's at best - and given what people are looking for (namely, help in return), and given that if you actually are good at editing you can set up things with several people where you look at each others' stuff... well, you can see why that's a problem. The best people are likely to develop relationships with people and drop out of the group because they aren't getting "paid back" and can go on to develop said relationships.

3541583

How are you going to help other people out if you don't have social skills, though? It is an inherently social activity

"Social skills" is not just one thing that you either have or don't have. What one needs to be able to read a story and write down what you think about it, without having to be personal about it, is something quite different than what one needs to be able to forge actual friendships out of thin air on a website designed primarily for publishing and reading of fanfics.

The skills I lack are of the latter kind, not the former.

But I do it because I need to do it, and because it isn't some horrible social sin to ask people for help, especially when you're willing to be helpful in return.

In my case it is, because, as said above, it's clop. People can decide for themselves to read it, and I'm cool with that, that's their choice -- but if I were to select any particular stranger and encourage them, personally, to read my fantasies and tell me about their reaction, I don't see how that wouldn't be harassment. It might even be criminal if the random stranger turned out to be a minor.

that was just the impression I got of you talking about yourself when you were talking about editors being a rare breed and not really having the skills necessary to participate in that sort of reciprocal altruism. I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.

When I'm talking about editors being a rare breed, it's in reference to your blog post, where you describe editors (or at least "good" editors) as particularly awesome people with a very specialized technical skill set. I don't doubt that some such people exist, and any author who manages to get help from one of them should be happy and take it.

But the point is that there are not enough good editors for everybody to get one. Someone will have to do without, even if it would have been better for them to have one.

My proposal is not aimed at giving anyone access to good editing -- there are already groups that do that, and I have no particular ideas for how they could do that better. My point is for those who end up not having a good editor to at least get some feedback, however inexpert and amateur. They'll have to interpret it without the help of a good editor, but it's better than nothing.

Of course the good editors wouldn't come near the group I'm envisaging. It's not for them in the first place.