Ok guys. I have seen you guys hate on the finale for false reasons. Like claiming that the villains were getting a redemption arc. Even though that scene in Frenemies lasted only a few minutes. Also The Summer Sun Setback not ever establishing that at all. Personally I don’t really want to see Chrysalis and Tirek reform, they’re great evil villains. Especially the former. Cozy is a terrible villain. Probably the worst along with Grogar. She is a mishmash of child villains, and her faces are annoying. Here are what I want to show you.

https://www.deviantart.com/antiher0x/journal/DA-Journal-Commentary-36-1-NaCl-Overload-836366830
https://www.deviantart.com/antiher0x/journal/DA-Journal-Commentary-36-2-NaCl-Overload-836731444
https://www.deviantart.com/antiher0x/journal/DA-Journal-Commentary-36-3-NaCl-Overload-837045374
https://www.deviantart.com/antiher0x/journal/DA-Journal-Commentary-36-4-NaCl-Overload-837146287
https://www.fimfiction.net/blog/913901/the-grogar-twist-and-discords-character

Looking back at the finale it does deliver fun action scenes. Even though it does have problems. I actually thought that the epilogue was a good way to end the show. I don’t think the finale is even bad anymore. Have you heard about Star vs’ finale? It sounds way worse. Than what this finale accomplished.

My issues with season 9 don't involve redemption arcs, since I don't believe that either Tirek, Chrysalis, or Cozy Glow are capable or even willing to change. Honestly, I really liked the finale "The Last Problem"...it's just most of the stuff leading up to it that I don't like. And I'm surprised to find someone else here who didn't like Cozy Glow either.

Meeeh still would of liked to see them reformed.
Or maybe not REFORMED reformed, but just, stop being villains and just exist (hopefully together as fwiends), just be like “this is getting tiring, screw this, I’m going home.”
But whatever, they needed to set a point of “not EVERYONE can be bought with friendship.”

7312766

Like claiming that the villains were getting a redemption arc.

The irony of you typing this out is that you also typed out this:

I have seen you guys hate on the finale for false reasons.

Tu quoque, amici.

After almost a year since FIM is finished, I became less mad but that doesn't change my opinions. Accepting the fact that Grogar was Discord while the other villains take the spotlight makes the finale mostly predictable. I do understand that not every villain should reform but for how they set up Grogar and his backstory, I was expecting something better then what we end up with.

7312789
For me, I am still pretty peeved about Discord's iffy plan and how Luna and Celestia were handled in there..
Along with wishing Chrysalis at least didn't suffer a horrible fate(doesn't help that its ultimately Discord's fault due to his plan)

To expand on my pithy comment,

Like claiming that the villains were getting a redemption arc

That's not the issue. We did not know whether or not the villains were getting a redemption arc; nothing to that effect had been said by the show's staff. What we did know was that Twilight had been increasingly trying to redeem or reach out to her foes when possible. This makes sense: Friendship is Magic, after all, and making new friends was a fundamental part of the series, which itself had begun not with Twilight blasting Nightmare Moon back into space, but Celestia reaching out to her sister and asking her to come back, before Luna had even begun to express any remorse.

Added to that, the Trio in "Frenemies" were, unequivocally, shown as being capable of Friendship. It wasn't beyond them, they weren't irredeemable, and in fact they came within an inch of embracing it and primarily didn't because they had no one on their side trying to help them get better - just a mad old goat who was physically and verbally abusive to them while also encouraging their most negative impulses and telling them that they were right to be evil bastards and right to want to rule over others. Who later it turns out was Discord. Because he's a selfish prick who doesn't value the lives of others beyond their use to him.

As for "Summer Sun Setback", the friendship is in how the Trio act towards one another. The bickering and infighting from "Frenemies" was gone, the trio got along with each other famously. "Summer Sun Setback" makes it clear that even if they nominally reject it, they were friends now. They just didn't understand it because Cozy has a warped understanding of friendship to start with and Tirek and Chrysalis have primarily experienced it by, as I've said before, being on the business end of a rainbow laser.

The failure of the finale isn't in the fact that what had occurred had perfectly well set up a redemption, but then it dropped the ball in a number of ways. First, by regressing the Trio to infighting and bickering apropos essentially nothing. Second and more importantly, by having that infighting and bickering being irrelevant. The Trio don't lose because of their "lack of friendship" with each other. They don't on the field of battle get in each others' way or seek personal glory instead of covering for each other. Their infighting is instead clumsily tacked on in a vain effort to convince us that the Trio aren't really friends. Nevermind that it's not like we haven't seen Applejack, Rainbow Dash, or Rarity fight among themselves in the same way.

But most importantly, the Trio were ultimately defeated and blasted by the mother of all rainbow lasers. And unlike Sombra it didn't kill them. it didn't petrify them. It didn't send them to the moon. It didn't even send them to Tartarus and that despite the fact that last time that's exactly what it did to Tirek. No, it only depowered them, left them at the mercy of the ponies.

And Twilight Sparkle, channeling the powers of a god, with an entire army at her back, who would lose nothing but thirty second of her time landing in front of the Trio and holding out her hoof and trying one last time to reach them...instead stands aside and watches and then cheers when the Trio are first tormented and humiliated, and then are, for all intents and purposes, summarily executed.

The pony who once risked literally all of Equestria to save the life of one mare who didn't deserve to be saved, refused to do anything and became a passive observer of vindictive cruelty inflicted on an old man, a lonely woman, and a child.

The finale's lessons are thus:

• For those in a position of power, mercy is an option, not an obligation.
• If you don't hit someone while they're down, they might get back up again.

For a show supposedly built around friendship, where fundamental principals are supposed to include kindness and generosity, that's simply repugnant beyond all belief.

The finale isn't over-hated. If anything, it isn't hated enough. I haven't even touched on some of its other failures, like the fact that Discord might have nominally apologized for uniting the Trio but he is never actually called out on the fact that his Plan A was to use them as disposable minions.

7312822
Well said! And that's not even touching upon the issues with Discord's plan, his character regression, the deeper implications of his plot or his lack of a proper punishment.

7312766
Just a friendly reminder: MLP FiM is not Dragon Ball: Super or Johnny Test. It was never about action, funny meme faces and gags. The last two seasons were and that's why people call them "bad" or "not canon".
People hate the ending for horrible writing, plot holes, out of character ponies, abandoning the show's spirit and making cringeworthy "twists".
>"Like claiming that the villains were getting a redemption arc. Even though that scene in Frenemies lasted only a few minutes"
You do realize you said one thing in the first sentence, then completely denied it in the next one? And seriously, what kind is the argumentation "I think you are overreacting over X character, because I don't like them"?

7312799
7312822
7312834
Did you guys read the links I posted. Criticizing what people have about the finale! Also I think Discord is getting way too much hate. Yes I think that the twist was bad. But he did save Starlight who released the others. Also I don’t think Discord of all people would see any problem. With using people as pawns. Also Cozy is terrible at being a villain, and one that is irredeemable. With the latter sounding more like something from a dark thriller or comedy.

7312766

Like claiming that the villains were getting a redemption arc.

Hmmmm, meeh. When Frenemies happed I tottaly fell in love with this evil pseudo family and was rooting for their reformation ever sinse. It doesn't have to be a full reformation, just lock them together under supervation or something.

7312883
Doesn't mean I am not allowed to be mad about Discord's plan though.
How Luna and Celestia were handled in the finale still hurts too.
Like.. really wished they were handled better. Especially Luna's case with how she started the show off with her story in the book opening..

7312883

But he did save Starlight who released the others

A position she was only in thanks to him, specifically, his Plan A to wreck Twilight's coronation, and him subsequently not doing his due diligence in keeping an eye on the three highly dangerous criminals he was keeping in a cave and encouraging to be as evil as possible. You do not get brownie points for helping to clean up an avoidable mess that you made in the first place. Especially not when this is the third time since his supposed reformation that Discord has nearly destroyed Equestria.

Also I don’t think Discord of all people would see any problem.

I don't think Emperor Palpatine would see any problem with using people as pawns either, but that doesn't mean that he's a good guy.

7312822

just a mad old goat who was physically and verbally abusive to them while also encouraging their most negative impulses and telling them that they were right to be evil bastards and right to want to rule over others.

Not to mention that Grogar smack them around and threaten them with violence every time they didn't fall in line. What the heck were the villains supposed to do then go along? Call 911?

7312849

And seriously, what kind is the argumentation "I think you overreacting over X character, because I don't like them"?

Yeah. I get it that is not the best villain in the world, but she is not terrible either. I think she was a great addition to Legion of Doom. Frenemies wouldn't work at all without Cozy.

7312883

But he did save Starlight who released the others.

Let's say that a man murders his brother and sister-in-law, steals his father's medication to sell to junkies and rapes a teenage girl but is horribly burned saving a baby from a fire and ends up in a wheelchair as a result. Does this mean that the man's past sins are forgiven because he saved the baby? Just because you do a good thing, that doesn't erase everything else. Yes, Discord saved Starlight so she could rescue the others but they wouldn't have been in that mess in the first place if it wasn't for him. When Discord tells everyone what he did, he plays it off and tries multiple times to defend his actions, not even caring that he knowingly betrayed his friends' trust, released some dangerous villains, gave them the power to cause untold damage and ignored Fluttershy when she tearfully asks him why he did all of this. I'm not saying turning him to stone would've preferable but some sort of punishment would've been nice, like not giving him back his magic.

Also I don’t think Discord of all people would see any problem. With using people as pawns.

Past Discord sure, but not when he's had years of character growth and development. By now, he should be aware that lying to your friends is wrong, as well as bringing the dead back to life, breaking two dangerous criminals out of prison, helping three untrustworthy villains find a relic that give them more power and then admitting to your half-baked plot without a hint of remorse. Remember in "Twilight's Kingdom" when he was betrayed by Tirek? He felt the weight of his error and behaved as though he understood what he did was wrong. He even apologized to Twilight and the others in a surprisingly honest and touching way without acting superior or cracking a joke. He learned about the importance of friendship and from then on, we see him slowly developing into a better person. "The Ending of the End" Discord almost causes the destruction of Equestria and nearly gets his friends killed because he came up with a poor scheme that had little chance of actually paying off. And let's just say that it did work. Given how Discord loves the spotlight, he'd reveal his plan to a victorious Twilight, causing her to doubt herself and we'd be back to square one. There's so much more wrong with this concept but I've listed my reasons for it so many times before so I won't repeat myself.

Also Cozy is terrible at being a villain, and one that is irredeemable. With the latter sounding more like something from a dark thriller or comedy.

Yeah, I can see that. While there's nothing wrong with an evil child character, they have to be done right and Cozy Glow just didn't hit the mark. People claim her manipulation skills as her strong suit but is she? Her main tactic is convincing others that she's sweet and innocent but once that facade is gone, that's it. She's never shown being a genius; her plot to steal Equestria's magic was helped by Tirek and in season 9, the only reason she got to where she did was by joining up with Tirek and Chrysalis. Her status as a pegasus means that she lacks powerful magic and since she's a child, she's still developing and lacks both physical strength and intimidation. Also...what's her motivation? I can buy that anyone can do wrong at nearly any age but why is Cozy Glow the way that she is? Why did she want to steal Equestria's magic and how did she come to that conclusion? Queen Chrysalis came from a race of shape-shifters that fed off of love. She wanted to ensure that her children didn't starve but also derived pleasure from tricking others and feeding off of them. Lord Tirek came from presumably a warrior culture of conquerors and is a brute that wants power. What does Cozy Glow want and why does she want it?

7312901
Take an alcoholic, put rum and coke and an empty glass in front of them, pull out a revolver and smack them upside the head with it, then point the gun at their head and threaten to shoot them unless they have a rum and coke...you don't get to act surprised when the alcoholic drinks, both due to their compulsion and due to the fact that you have a gun to their head.

Oh but my metaphor is incomplete, since first you also have to show someone dying thanks to not being an alcoholic in a scenario that you arranged beforehand. Like I dunno, throwing them into freezing water or something. "If he'd been drunk off his ass he would have survived! Now drink or I'll kill you."

7312904

What does Cozy Glow want and why does she want it?

I did my best on that front.

7312905
Yep, your analogy pretty much sum it up. I'm not saying that Sombra was saint or that he shouldn't be punished (he deserved to be put in dungeon for long time for sure) but set him up like that? Ufff

Also it is kinda ironic that Trio did what Discord want them to do in the first place only without his safe net so he couldn't get a credit.

7312912
I don't think you understand what the word "toxic" means, and I think you're falling back on claiming it in lieu of actually defending the finale. Which I'm sure, theoretically, can be done, though I've yet to see it done well.

7312923
I deleted my comment.

7312926
Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

7312905
Nice, I'll check it out

7312927
7312933

Ok I don’t hate you people. But I think you are all getting way too mad at the finale.

7312952
I mean, we've outlined why. It's not really that well written. It has plot holes. And its message not only stands thematically at-odds with the show prior to the finale, but is just fundamentally morally repugnant on top of that.

Why shouldn't we be pissed off at the fact that a TV show aimed at little girls concludes with a story with the basic message of "the weak should fear the strong"?

7312952
Maybe it's because we're talking about a show we've been invested in for years due to its writing and characters and it suddenly gives us a huge middle finger to both? When something, be it a book, movie or TV show, wishes to tell a story, it's the audience who ingests it and keeps it afloat. When the makers of said show decide to say "screw it" to what made them popular in the first place, it's going to get people upset.

7312955

And what about, "it doesn't matter no matter how badly you mess up whether you meant to or not, as long as you said you were sorry and did something nice, you don't have to suffer any consequences for your actions?"

7312893
It would not only screw up Twilight's coronation but it will also mess up Luna and Celestia's reputations even if the plan didn't went haywire.
Like on their last days as rulers, the sisters end up getting taken out and end up forced to rely on the girls to save their flanks and the day AGAIN.
Luna and Celestia's rules would end on not so good notes. It hurts more for Luna's case due to she didn't rule as much long as Celestia did, so her track record looks worse in comparison due to that.

7312972
7312955
I’m not trying to make you people mad. But a lot of people actually like the finale. Claiming that it is one of the best mlp episodes.

7313051
Oh I'm not mad. In fact, the show made me feel more disappointed than angry. And I happen to like the finale. It's just what came before it that I can't stand. "The Last Problem," while not perfect, was a good way to end the series. I just wished that the rest of season 9 could've been just as good. I understand that people like season 9, like the Grogar twist and the Terrible Trio being the main baddies but I don't. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion or the opinion of like-minded individuals who were more critical of the writing. I'm simply laying down a response to statements or questions people are giving out. I can at the very least explain why I'm not happy with the finished product rather than make generalized blanket statements like, "I hated it!" or "Bad writing!" I may not agree with you but that doesn't mean I have any animosity towards you or anyone that agrees with you.

7313051
Well I mean that's great for them and all, but you are the one who said we hate the finale for "false" reasons. I assure you, my reasons are real. VERY REAL.

7313080
7313069
I didn’t mean to say that. I also hear people hating the epilogue because shipping. Twilight outgrowing her friends. Even if the show never said anything about it. I actually don’t like the finale that much.

7313089

I also hear people hating the epilogue because shipping.

I didn't really see it that way. I know the writers were attempting to tease the idea of Fluttershy ending up with Discord and Applejack being with Rainbow Dash but it really doesn't seem to. Discord handing Fluttershy a bagged lunch and being at her animal sanctuary doesn't prove that they're involved, nor does Rainbow doing chores for Applejack.

Twilight outgrowing her friends. Even if the show never said anything about it.

Well, considering that Twilight is an alicorn which, based on both Celestia and Luna, means that she likely has slowed-aging or even immortality so it's likely that is how it's going to go down.

I actually don’t like the finale that much.

The finale, and season 9 in general, did some things that I don't agree with. but I'll only discuss one particular development. I don't think Celestia and Luna should've retired nor left Twilight in charge. Say what you will, but it appears as though Celestia has made some big mistakes in the past, such as defeating villains that later returned and were defeated by someone else (King Sombra, Nightmare Moon, Lord Tirek, Discord). And then there's Celestia's plans involving Twilight. Ever since Twilight was a filly, Celestia has had the goal of teaching her so that one day she could become an alicorn princess and one day replace her. That's...kind of messed up.

Celestia told Twilight not to worry about Nightmare Moon and sent her away regardless despite not apparently having a plan for dealing with the issue. Then she reappears once the threat has passed and revealed that Nightmare is her sister, which is not common knowledge. Then she sent Twilight and her friends to the Crystal Empire despite knowing full well how powerful King Sombra is and gambling on their victory instead of going herself or sending Luna in. Twilight didn't know that completing Star Swirl's unfinished spell would turn her into an alicorn and alicorns presumably live for centuries, millennia even, so that means she'll outlive her friends and family. Then in season 9, when she feels as though things are "harmonious," she tells Twilight that she and Luna are retiring and that the plan all along was for Twilight to take over. So that means that Twilight never really had a choice in her own life. The only thing that she really decided on her own was opening the Friendship School but she had to give that up to run Equestria. That and the fact that she's prone to fits of anxiety and has no real working knowledge of how to properly run a government.

Why would Luna retire? She spent 1,000 years on the moon and has only been back for a few years, not even half as long as Celestia. Hear me out but I think Celestia should've stepped down and allowed Luna to take over for her. Ever since "Luna Eclipsed," Princess Luna has had it rough, being re-introduced into a new time period, wracked with guilt over her past actions, getting used to being a royal again and fighting to win the approval of her subjects. In "Do Princesses Dream of Electric Sleep?", her guilt is so bad that it created a powerful being that threatened Equestria. Clearly she's still going through some issues but the writers just kind of dropped it. Anyway, not only is her being Celestia's sister make her a candidate for the throne but she also has much more experience with politics than Twilight and being Equestria's primary ruler would give her a chance in the spotlight without continuing to be Celestia's number two. I feel as though there were missed opportunities to explore Princess Luna's character and now she's just relegated to being Celestia's lackey, following her both in the palace and on a beach.

7313122
It was actually Lauren Faust’s original intention for Twilight to become ruler of Equestria.

7313125
Oh that I know that but the way that it played out is, well, rather off. Instead of Twilight deciding such a fate or having everyone choose her, she's essentially a victim of Celestia's manipulation of her life. Besides, wouldn't it have been far more interesting if Celestia didn't get what she wanted and Twilight turned down the offer altogether? Now that would've been a twist.

7313125
And maybe in better writing hands it could have been executed well.

7312884

Hmmmm, meeh. When Frenemies happed I tottaly fell in love with this evil pseudo family and was rooting for their reformation ever sinse. It doesn't have to be a full reformation, just lock them together under supervation or something.

Oh I feel the same way. Didn’t even have to be a reformed or defeat or anything, I would of been fine if they would of been like “Oh we’re done being villains, bye.” At least like.. kept together, y’know? If anything, despite the arguing in the finale, they seem to be the only ones they tolerate being around. Like f r i e n d s.

7313125
Problem is did Faust intended for Luna to step down too or would she co-rule with Twilight?
I don't think Faust mentioned anything about Luna in the original idea there.

7313135

If anything, despite the arguing in the finale, they seem to be the only ones they tolerate being around. Like f r i e n d s.

I love their 'dysfuncional family' dynamics. And I think they coud became sort of friedns, but they would never admit it.

At least like.. kept together, y’know?

While I'm glad there is a plenty of fics that gives the trio a happier ending, I think there is only quite few of them that keep them together. Tell me if I'm wrong but to it seem that in many case it is the Cozy who gets the the main spotlight and Chrysalis and Tirek got released at the end of story. Or when story trie to reform all of them they keep them seperate, which makes sense from story perspective (it is more secure to reforme them one at the time), but I would like to see more fics where trio just begrudgingly accept the defeat and tries to somewhat live together

7313132
Preferably in some way that gave Twilight some more agency in the process, as opposed to the whole plot of ascension to alicornhood, coronation and ascension to the throne being driven by others behind her back and with her involvement in it largely focusing on agreeing to it after being informed at the last minute.

bitter no I'm not bitter

7313622
Now that you mentioned, Twilight doesn't really have a much of agency on her own. She is still pushed from her confort zone by external forces, but she hardly does anything to againts it and when story return to status que she is completly happy with it.

7313647 7313622
It is worth noting that Twilight has only ever made two life decisions of her own volition: to become a student of magic, and to become a teacher and open the School of Friendship.

7313764
Yes, very much so -- I have my fair share of issues with the school as a concept, but one think I had to admit is that it's very much Twilight's brainchild and creation, something that she independently decided she wanted to, that she felt was an important goal and achievement, and that she put in the hard work and time necessary to make it a reality, to defend against adversity and to keep running and working afterwards.

... for maybe, what, two years or so until Celestia decided that Twilight needed to be doing something else instead.

7312777
If they wouldn't have reformed, this outcome would have been a better alternative. Having their fates unknown and up to the viewer is a third alternative for me.

7313621

Tell me if I'm wrong but to it seem that in many case it is the Cozy who gets the the main spotlight and Chrysalis and Tirek get released at the end of story.

Oh yeah, definitely; most if not all of the trio reformation fics focus much more on just Cozy Glow while the other two are either secondary or pushed aside entirely, and I really wish there were more that focused on all three.
Accept defeat and live together you say? 👀 I completely agree. (Continues to write the fic....)

7312849
Actually a lot of people actually like the finale.

7312883
Saving Starlight so the others can get out isn't enough to make it up for this mess. Its a start though.

Also, Discord should have been above the thinking of using others as pawns at this point. He's supposed to be reformed.
That kind of thinking is something villains has and Discord stoops to their level for doing so. He needs to be chewed out hard for that.
This is something pre-reform Discord would have done, using others as disposable pawns. It doesn't matter if they were villains, they are still living beings, not playthings to be sacrificed like that.

Just so you know, playing devil's advocate doesn't always work.

7312766
Your saying that the Finale is overhated but what makes Starlight being left out okay at the last scene? I thought Twilight already established Starlight to be her friend ever since the redemption so why is it just a recreation of the final scene in the episode "The Best Night Ever"? Why? Is it because its only the Mane 6 and not everyone else? Well Spike is not part of the Elements of Harmony so is it okay for him to be there? Why him and not Starlight? Why is it that Starlight is just shoved off to the side and pushed out of the picture like that? What about rewarding the efforts of everyone else in the Season finale? Do they not deserved doughnuts too? No really. Really I'm serious. All of those guys are tired, they are hungry, they just fought this massive battle and what do they get? What's in it for everyone else in Equestria? Seriously I thought Twilight and the rest of the Mane6 said she will be friends with Starlight?

7777772
Why are you commenting on a very old thread that my opinions have changed in? Also the links to a journal here are dead.

7777772
Now you're just going too far in complaining to SplashTraveler47 when his opinions have changed.