Theory: Discord was never actually evil. · 5:38pm Feb 19th, 2019
This entire idea hinges on the known fact that Lauren Faust based Discord on Q from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Here is the source on that, since it's pretty critical for this theory/analysis to know that Lauren based Discord on Q.
That's Jayson Thiessen, the show's supervising director and executive producer. I can't think of a more primary source than him.
So, I'm pretty sure that everyone here knows that Discord and Q are more than a little bit similar. Same personality, same powers, same visual effect when using their powers (same sound effect too!), same overall scope when using powers (If you pay attention to TNG, the huge galaxy spanning stuff is actually always the work of multiple Qs working in unison. We never see Q himself alter reality in more than a planetary scale). We also know that the only way to imprison a Q is to petrify it thanks to that one Voyager episode with the Q who wants to die.
What if their motivations are also the same? After some thought, I think they are.
The entire reason Q is interested in humans is that he likes them, and believes they can ascend to a higher state of being given the chance and time. All of his apparent fun and games (and engineered crises) are designed to make influential humans realize certain things, lean a particular moral lesson, or undertake a specific action. He hides his acts behind games most of the time, but as he revealed in TNG's final episode "The Trial never ends". He's been working with dire serious for the entire seven seasons of TNG, guiding humanity along a path in the hopes they will grow into something more, even though he's a playful and mischievous person who hides his intentions behind shenanigans.
Give this clip a watch. It's from TNG's finale where Q reveals his actual intentions.
Got that? Good. Moving on to Discord.
Think about what Discord has done in the actual show. He starts as an apparent force of evil, requiring Celestia and Luna recover a set of ancient artifacts created by Starswirl and co, forcing them to unify to stop him, and likely resulting in their claim to rulership of Equestria. We next see Discord break free of his petrification (as that one Q also did), and proceed to get up to his old tricks... None of which actually kill or permanently injure everypony. Instead, he forces the new bearers of the Elements to overcome their dark sides and become stronger friends in order to stop him.
He then goes on in his second appearance to cause the Element's emotionally weakest member to grow a little more assertive by forcing her to keep him in line. Next time we see him is in flashback when Twilight ascends to alichornhood, something she could NOT do without her strong circle of friends.
On the surface the flashback is likely meant to show Twilight's accomplishments and remind the audience why she as a character deserves the reward she is getting. Buuuut, an in universe explanation could be Discord hinting at his true goals to Twilight, Celestia, or both.
That's the approximate end of Faust's influence on the show and she's the one who specifically based Discord on Q. But his actions as a character continue to follow that same pattern even to the current episode.
We next see Discord when that whole vine thing he started occurs, which results in the Bearers learning that the Tree shouldn't have the elements detached from it, resulting in their main source of power not being destroyed. Yes, while Discord reacts with disappointment to the vines behind destroyed when the Elements are placed on the tree, this could be part of the act or perhaps he was hoping that our heros would be forced to work WITHOUT their powers to resolve the situation and didn't know that the Deus Ex Machina would occur. It's important to note he sincerly congratulates our heros on their victory regardless of that disappointment. Heck, at this point Discord literately says he withed the info on the vines being caused by him ages ago as a lesson for Twilight.
Discord's next appearance is the whole Tirek thing. Have a recap of the episode. Without Discord's eventual assistance the Elements wouldn't ever unlock the tree's true power. It's entirely possible that Discord used Tirek as a pawn to ensure that the Elements gained access to the Rainbow Power as he knew they wouldn't ever get said power without a truly cataclysmic threat. After all, Discord is "convinced" to join Tirek with... Well, bizarre ease. He also makes that weirdly chessmastery face before turning around and accepting Tirek's deal and the entire time Tirek is talking to him to persuade him he has that deadpan "meh" expression as if he doesn't care at all until it's time for him to respond. That's honestly a good way to indicate manipulation. (I should also point out that Qs at one point took away Q's powers, so Discord loosing them to Tirek is still on theme for a Q.)
We then get the Smooze incident. Which results in Fluttershy gaining something she still largely lacked, the courage to stand up to someone. Once again, this resulted itn eh group's weakest emotional link being shored up and fortified. Howeaver, the wierd thing about that whole episode is that in Discord's next appearance he tells Twilight that moments of friendship can't be manufactured and teaches her a whole lesson about that. A strange thing for someone who just recently learned you can have more than one friend to do... Unless the entire time he was faking being a bad friend for Fluttershy's sake.
We briefly see him in the Cutie Remark, where Celestia and Luna failed to stop him. Did he kill them? Is he ruling over ponies with an iron talon? No. He's forcing Celestia and Luna to preform for his amusement, pretty much dumping more motivation on them to stop him while ensuring they stay around and will eventually have the opportunity to either escape or attack him directly.
We next see him get board with a tabletop RPG and make an alternate reality to spice the game up. That is totally a thing Q would do for friends if they asked. The whole thing is also him getting upset about his guy friends not liking his contributions to the game. Also a Q thing. NO lessons here, just more of Q's personality being used to write Discord.
Here is where my knowledge of the show ends. You know, because the whole Starlight thing has me like this. Yes. Still.
According to Wikipedia, Discord's further appearances have him:
- Make friends with Trixie and help her preform her show better.
- Push Twilight to do something about the tyrannical dictator who tortured her that one time who she inexplicably befriended in a bout of writing so terrible the author must have been on some bad shrooms and/or meth.
- Once again force Fluttershy to grow emotionally.
- Ensures Big mac and some mare don't break up.
- Gets pissed the buck off when Twilight leaves a certain monster who mutilated ponies and tried to break the space-time continuum for petty revenge in charge of Twilight's new School. He attempts to prevent Pol Pot's Ponysona from getting to warp young minds by scarring them away from the school, and attempting to trick Mao Ze-pone into giving up a large chunk of power at the school to him, though he fails because Twilight comes back. Thank you, Discord. You did the right thing when nopony else even acknowledges the problem.
- Literally fabricates an emergency so Fluttershy can be a solo-hero for a change, once again shoring up the weakest link in the Element's chain.
- We see a flashback to his tyrannical era, which basically shows him to be a mustash twirling villein of such cartoonishly evil proportions and power that nopony couldn't NOT understand how beating him would be a god-like feat, which would cement anypony's claim to rule, TBH. Oh, and he forces a situation into existence where the ponies use the Elements.
And that's everything so far. Nothing Discord has done has ever resulted in anything but the ponies growing stronger, closer, or smarter/better. When viewed as a whole, these acts do not seem random, but calculated. This is not chaos, this is order. This is Kieth Ledger's Joker, not the real Joker Mark Hamel's Joker. Discord can't possiblely not be a man with a plan. Everything he ever did resulted in good things for ponykind.
What's more, everything he did tested them, or more specifically, their greatest heros. Discord was testing their resolve while guiding them along a path leading to enlightenment and spiritual/social enrichment. Discord did for ponies what Q did for humans. In the same exact ways.
Personal note: Given that Star Trek shows the Q exist across many dimensions, and that it wouldn't be too far fetched for Trek to have ponies in its universe, I'm going to say that Discord is for certian a Q, mabey even the same one who likes humans, and that ponies are also "On Trial".
Additionally, this brief video essay on what the Q as a species seem to do mentions one rather interesting thing about their overall goals and motivations as a culture. They seem to want friends.
You misspelled Rainbow.
5016488 Could you point out where please? I'll fix it asap.
He still looks like a guy that would screw ya over. I know he is good and all and that he has good intention (except that one comic story of him) but I hardly trust the guy even if he is good.
or Celestia's patronage, or Harmony paving the way, or Starswirl doing the heavy theory and spell-work. I don't disagree with Twilight's apotheosis, but I hated how, hurried, it felt. Like Celestia was railroading her into the position rather than waiting for her to earn it on her own. That moment ought to have been Twilight's crowning moment, but instead it was relegated to the world's greatest participation trophy.
But I'm getting distracted. I rather like this theory. AkumaKami64 writes a lot of Discord, (and never finishes anything, appropriately enough) and that's one of his recurring themes, the idea that there's more to Discord than meets the eye. On one occasion, Discord decided to just throw Tirek right back in Tartarus. It made for an interesting conversation later.
Discord is a fascinating character when written well, he has so much flexibility. I've seen malevolent Discord, innocent Discord, jokester Discord, serious Discord, chessmster Discord, bluffing Discord, lovestruck Discord, and enraged Discord. But it's always been Discord, yes?
I think that just about the only way to write Discord wrong, is to write him as completely unchanging, like a stock Saturday morning cartoon villain. Because Discord, the embodiment of chaos, must change. This is even canon, when he nearly killed himself trying to over-accommodate Fluttershy.
And good heavens, you really don't like Starlight, do you?
I never thought discord was evil, evil varies far to much person to person anyways.
Huh, I don't think I've considered it that way before.
5016508
Wise of you. Q was MORE than willing to put the enterprise in a situation where people got killed, after all.
I have to agree, Meep. Discord's not evil-if he were, he could have done a LOT more damage in the series.
As for him planning things out in this way, not sure what to say. It's one interpretation of him, but I also like him as being mischievous and being the way he is at the series start because he had basically power without repercussions and no one to show him that it's wrong to trap a pony in a giant marshmallow.
Does that mean he can predict the future too?
5016514
It is not possible for me to express my hatred of her in a brief manner. Suffice to say that as an autistic person with narrow interests, you should understand just how much ponies meant to me. In case you do not understand, anything I like is as important to me as religion is to people who truly believe it.
King Leopone the 2nd of Belgum made it impossible for me to enjoy MLP the second she got a face-turn.
No. Not just future episodes, but past ones too. The fact that our heroes not only forgive someone who has crossed the moral event horizon by torturing and lobotomizing them on screen, but accept them into their friend group the very instant she agrees with their moral philosophy means one of two things:
Both of these ruin their characterizations so much I cannot enjoy the show anymore. This is also but a single facet of how that one single face-turn ruins the show. It also screws up the characterizations of the Princesses, messes up world building... Oh, and they stapled Trixie to the hip of a monster who literally lobotomized the main cast (I dont care that it could be undone easily! That is 100% irrelevant. It's easy to sew a finger back onto a human, that dosn't make it okay for me to go around cutting off people's fingers!)
I honestly have never seen a single show implode in such a complete and total fashion from a single writing decision than MLP did.
I always thought of Discord as a guy who hated to be bored, couldn't figure out what he wanted to do with his life and possessed the power to warp reality on a whim
5016577
Yeah, ponies do forgive and forget way to quickly
5016618
And remember, that monster is someone who ripped out the parts of people which enable them to be unique individuals, down to being incapable of speaking a different dialect, or even using idioms, all simply to force their ideology into others with the intent of taking over the entire world.
You are defending someone who went one step further than Nazis on the evil shit to do to spread your ideology spectrum...
I broadly agree with your theory, as far as modern day Discord. In the past chaos era, I think Discord seemed to be less benevolent planner and more just an immature baby god blissfully unaware of how badly his actions impacted his favorite playthings. I think that's where his benevolence comes from now; he's had a nice long time out to think. Because yeah, when he got unpetrifed, he very clearly is giving them a quest to advance and not seriously trying to STOP them.
5016623
Agree entirely. It's especially infuriating considering that Cozy Glow got thrown into Tartarus despite being a minor, for far less severe offenses. And Starlight was unrepentant to the point of doubling down with the whole multidimensional thing, which basically makes her the biggest traitor in multiple Equestrias.
Excellent summary. Alara Rogers had a story where he was the same Q, which was since rendered non-canon somehow (I think), but she pointed out some of the same reasoning, at least up to Tirek.
I'll also add that his chaos seems to be an attempt to get the ponies to toughen up a little and not worry about piddly **** like rabbit stampedes or zebra racism, by introducing harmless weird crap that they have to learn to deal with.
I've always considered Discord to be that kooky guy that can be fun to be around--as long as you're not the butt of his current joke!--but maybe isn't dependable for the little orderly bits of life like helping move your furniture exactly where you want, or painting your house nicely, or the like. It doesn't make him a bad friend, just one you know is more reliable in some areas of life than others... which is true of anyone, anyway, even if the specific areas are different from person to person.
And chaos is necessary for life to exist. Otherwise we'd all at best be little automatons going through the exact same motions exactly the same way every day, forever. At worst, we'd not exist, and everything would be a perfectly organized crystal lattice of universe-wide stagnation. Chaos, change, disorder brings interesting, new, or challenging events. Yes, they can be bad. They can also be good. And the sufficiently determined and/or prepared can sometimes even turn bad into good. But none of that could happen without chaos in the first place.
Hence why order vs chaos has always been seen on a different continuum to good vs evil in RPGs. They're not the same thing at all.
Beware Discord, for he is crazy. But also know that he's not out to get you. And if you can think of his shenanigans in the right way, he's even fun. Unless you're, you know, rude or dickish to him. Then he's more than capable of getting his own back. And you kinda deserve it if you're gonna be that dumb!
I agree... but that might not mean much. Personally, I'm the guy who think Rose Quartz is a horrible person, and everyone loves her, so....
5019471 There's a known cognitive bias called the Bandwagon effect. In short, if lots of people already believe something, others will tend to believe it because "If lots of people think it's true, it must be!" Howeaver, that's entirely false. A lot of people believe we never landed on the moon. A lot of people don't believe space is real. Many people think the FBI had President JFK executed (Okay, that one is at least plausible. He almost started WWIII 14 times!).
What I am trying to say is that Rose Quarts is a horrible person. She started a war for her own convenience, then effectively committed suicide to dodge responsibility, which she KNEW would be forced on her son. That alone is realy bad, but she's done way more too.
She brainwashed Amythaist into believing she was fine just the way she was, when Amythist is in fact disabled. Because of this Amythist never learned ways to work around or with her disability and continued trying to do things as if she were a normal gem of her type. This caused extreme emotional distress and development issues in someone who at the time would have had a child's intellect and understanding of the world. In short, Rose intentionally abused a child for the sake of her personal ideology and denied that child therapy, medical care, and prostetics.
Rose also abolished slavery, except for her slave. Pearl was forced via "magic" or whatever to never speak a word about "by the way, guys, kind of critical thing, we're actually fighting for Pink Diamond because Rose is Pink." She also took advantage of somone's love to manipulate them into doing what she wanted, as well as using that as the means to ensure she wouldn't betray her later... Only to toss literal eons of affection and love aside from some random alien with a van.
Oh, and then there's the time she put a trusted officer into a coma because that officer said "Hey, you know how we are at war? We should probably eliminate the enemy's commanding officers. It might end the war and prevent a lot of unnecessary death."
I could go on. But yeah. Rose is a horrible person. An actual monster who's only clear personality trait is "being a psycopath". I'd say scoiciopath, but I think she genuinely can't understand that other people have emotions at all and also dosnt see other people as people, rather than was trained as a kid to ignore others emotions. The biggest proof of that is Steven exists, AT ALL! "This will hurt everyone I know and the child I will create through this act. It will also leave a world defenseless against a threat it cannot withstand on its own, leading to the extinction of an entire species I started the war in the first place to protect. But I like it and want to so I'm going to do it."
5019567
Huh... I thought it was just either me "just not getting it it man" or a whole lot of people just being dopes. But I think there's a bit more to it...
Obviously there's a whole mess of identity party milarkey mixed in here one should take into this. She's voicing what they want to hear, and worse still, believe should be said to them, that they deserve to have other people tell them what she says and its okay to be like she is. Thankfully reality will always disappoint us all, but the fact that so many people are into this show not because its good or because the characters are well written, but because it tickles some ill informed societal and political ideology is... sad. Its just depressing.
Say what you will against the mlp drama's, at least we have people who call into question Twilight's or Rainbow's behavior (Best Pet Win, Amazing Mare Do Well, the pinkie sense episode just to name a few). The SU lot are in lock step, and heaven forfend on such as you and I, ones who, at least on my part, enjoy the show, have some sort of issue and voice. Because, and heaven help us should that day come, you and I will have to deal with... gasp, people upset with us on the interwebz
And then have to deal with the knowledge of their utter contempt for my utter lack of caring at their emotional upheveal at the gutting of their sacred cow
First, I should be clear: I have more a moral issue with Fallout Fluttershy then I do with Rose. Why, I shall make clear below:
Now, as for Rose herself... I agree. Hers was a horrible horrific ideology, one we should look upon with scorn... And these two,
cement the fact.
And agreed, the Bismuth one is shady as all fuck, but to be fair, Bismuth had her own issues. A mite to gung ho. And she was charismatic and just likeable enough to have made a new war once the old was done if she had been allowed to continue.
Mmm... well, gonna have to disagree with you there. What she did was, perhaps intentionally, was give Pearl a choice. Not in a good way like, say, Garnet does where she makes it clear she cannot and will not support her mental state but will support her choice, but just says "if you stay, you'll die."
Rose, for herself mind, didn't want Pearl to feel bad, so she worded it as gently as she could. A self centered move from one who had a long life of self centeredness, but here's the thing: it was still Pearl's choice.
Pearl is an adult. Mind of course emotional cripple. They all are to one extent or another: Pearl is a co dependent wreck, Amethyst, like Rose, is emotionally stunted due to abuse, and Garnet's "Stability" results from two midgets who are entirely unable to function without the other. The whole thing has resulted in Steven, a bloody child, being the adult in the room. Now his dad is at fault as well since he's so fucking wishy washy, but what the devil can he do? Because of Rose, and because love makes us stupid, lets be fair, he has a magic kid, who has powers he absolutely is unable to cope with. Whether he likes it or not, he's stuck with these feebs. And for all his faults, he is ultimately the one Steven draw's his moral center from.
That fat lay about is the moral center of this whole thing, how sad is that
Maybe its my past or just I'm a big softee, but... no, I wouldn't say she's a monster. Selfish, but what you sad implies she enjoys it or does it solely for her own gain. What she is... is the end result of centuries, perhaps millenia, of out right abuse.
As we see with the shows ending, she was, more often then not, locked in her room, like a child, for much of her existence, and may have very well been forced by White to commit atrocity, or knew that she was capable of forcing such a thing from her. She was probably terrified of her. She wanted to do what Steven did, but couldn't be sure of her sister's reaction. And since she seems to be the one who suffered the brunt of her abuse, one steming from White's own insecurities mind, not that such a thing justifies it, she was probably ill prepared for how to cope with people, human or gem.
So, she hid behind persona's. Masks to hide her selfish nature. She was what others wanted her to be at any one time. She submitted as a form of control. In short, she was a manipulative female. what are the odds?
hey ooh!
I kid of course... but really, we only see the "Real" once: with Greg when he flat out calls her out on her nonsense and tells her to talk to him like a person.
And here we see her as she is: an unperson. A non entity. She's not a real little girl, never was, and now... she has no idea how to be. And in the end, all she was was selfish: Steven is just another mask for her. Living by proxy. I don't like her... but I don't hate Rose either.
She is a creature of pity... and one no one should ever hold as a hero.
Again, agree... but maybe we can have some compassion for her. Nothing she did came from malice or utter disregard. Selfishness, yes, but evil? Ehhh....
5019891
The entire thing is basically a mix of four different cognitive biases and a few logical fallacies. Meaning liking Rose Quarts is a logic error. (Just like all of real life politics, IMO).
Here we have a mix of:
Take those together and what do you get? Why people like Rose Quarts. If they taught basic logic in school, less people would like her.
To be fair, being more upset with someone so naive they caused the end of the world by creating WMDs than someone who started a war arguably for their own sense of self-importance is a completely fair position.
I have to disagree here. Gems are Von Newman machines. They wouldn't leave earth alone simply because you beat them there. They'd send more troops later. Then more later still if necessary. Converting each and every planet they find into a colony is what they do. The ones on Earth who's programming has gotten shaken up are anomalies, like the Terminator units that helped John Connor. Their behavior is antithetical to the normal behavior of their "species". Bismuth was right, the only way to truly end that war is to radically alter the Diamond's programming, or destroy them. A galactic empire of thousands of colonies will ALWAYS win against a single world the moment it chooses to commit enough resources at once to the war effort to simply assure victory. We saw how difficult it was to make the Diamonds listen to Pink Diamond. Bismuth was right, the only viable way to win the war was to kill them. The show only ends the way it does because it's a TV show.
That's fair. We are all subject to Cognitive Biases. Here I am attributing malice to the action because the person committing it is amoral, when it could simply be unintended cruelty.
I don't know... I think the moral center of everything is the Cluster. "Wut? If I do that I'll blow up a planet. Hold on. Kay, not doing that now." later "Oh hey, the people who informed me that would end the world if I did that are in danger. Let me just do something about that... In a safe fashion, of course."
Speaking of the cluster... How fucked up is it that a kids show has something that's literally one of the Holocaust Camp experiments in it?! Sure, it''s gem body parts stuck together instead of human ones sewn together but that's still Josef Mengele shit right there! Literally! He sewed human body parts to each other, or to other people to try and make them work, in some cases he tried to make four armed humans for the purpose of making them able to lift more stuff. That link wont go into detail on what he did in his lab, but you can look it up if you want too, I just feel the need to prove that no, this guy actually existed. Because a human so evil they will literately create a kindergarten for their victem's children, be nice to those children tot he point of being called "Uncle" by lots of them, THEN GAS THEM WITH A SMILE, is literally a cartoon villein in most people's eyes. But nope! He existed.
He existed and the Homeworld Gems do some of the same shit he did, ON SCREEN! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, SUGAR?! You cant have villeins doing things that the actual Nazis really did and then keep the show slice of life! That makes your protagonists so fucking evil for caring more about ice cream than STOPPING ACTUAL NAZI LEVEL EVIL!
Monsters are rarely born, they are most often made. Almost every Ted Bundy out there could have been a good person, or perhaps bad one instead of a monster, if only they had been brought up different. While tragic, that doesn't change the fact that Ted killed, raped, then ate (in that order) 30 young women for the lolz.
Likewise, Pink's tragic backstory doesn't change the fact that she started a war wherein an unknown number of people believed to be at least in the thousands were killed, for personal reasons.
That said, I dont want to be antagonistic towards you. I'm just explaining why I see her as a monster.
5019912
Oh, I agree. She caused untold harm to God knows how many. I'm just saying that she's a pitiful one then a Bundy or Mangala
Oh, your not! I like this sort of debate and discussion. Really, your not going to offend me or anything like that
5019918 Oh! Then yes, I agree. She's certainly a tragic monster. Imagine if she'd simply put her foot down and developed the Earth colony differently, preserving nature where she saw fit instead of going full Eco Terrorist.
5019934
Ugh... sorry if I wasn't clear in my post
5019947 No it's fine! It was probably me #autisum #communicationdifficulties
5019962
same here
5019963 Oh god... Imagine if we accidentally wound up talking past one another for a good 15 minutes...
5019972
We'd probably end up like that one episode of The Nanny where one of goes "what the hell are we talking about?"
Okay... I'm not going to delete my original comments, because, well... fuck, its an interesting debate on good, evil, all that stuff...
But you were right. Rose is an evil cunt.
Sorry about the grainy vid, its the only I could find. So, she has more or less escaped consequence while leeching off of her own offspring... all while assuming his identity for her own.
Rebecca Sugar, me thinks, needs to rethink her ethics a touch
5028457 Not at all... If next season we learn that Homeworld's degraded condition and agressive stance is also all due to Rose, and the show has the character realise they were a villen's pawns and quest to make things right, it woudl all work in the end and I'd have my foot in my moulth on the story's quality.
5028473
yeah... but something tells me their creativity ended when they found a way to make lesbians without actual women involved. Anything else would require self reflection.
Also kind of feeling that the story is pretty much done as far as that verse goes. Goody
5028479 It's okay. Dragonlance still exists :3
5028519
And Berserk... which is still ongoing and may be might kinda be finished if the planets align on a blue moon before the bloody artist dies of old age