Triptych: the... potential visual novel? · 2:13pm Dec 12th, 2016
I just started tackling my mail. I have a bad tendency to let it pile up, especially when I'm feeling less than 100%, and I've been sick for most of the month. A bit more than that, actually. I'm prone to winter coughs: something about the change in the air quality gets to my throat, and I live on generic drops for a good part of the season. This year, it's been a little worse, and I've been sleeping on generic Nyquil. (I deliberately won't write while on it. Writing under the influence is only fun for those who can show you the results afterwards.) But I'm feeling somewhat better today, so I started sorting out the more recent arrivals, and... I'm not sure what to do about this one.
Well, I know what I did with it. I asked for more information and offered a chance to rethink. But... here I am in the blog post window, and telling everyone else about this may blow my chances of ever seeing it done. The person who sent me the letter isn't actively following me, but I'd say the odds of having this spotted are rather high.
It was a flattering offer. Let's get that out of the way first: I was deeply flattered. Honored as well. Everything after that is a series of question marks, and I don't seem to have any end in sight for that checklist.
The basics:
I was contacted by an artist/composer. He wants to render Triptych itself into a visual novel. And when I say visual novel, I mean that's apparently the full treatment: art, music, possibly some limited animation. He mentioned using Ren'py as his main source. (I had to look it up.) Each episode would be one or two chapters, sticking to most of the original text.
That's pretty much all I was told. Grand sum total.
So I did what I thought was the reasonable thing. I freaked thought of all the reasons it wouldn't work, and then I wrote back to mention a few.
I asked to see a few samples of his work. I feel I'm within my rights there. I'm not expecting anyone to draw Continuum-compliant character versions for everypony, especially not for a project of this scale: sliding in show models would save a lot of time. But getting a view of how elements are assembled would be essential before I considered truly committing.
And there's Issue #1: commitment.
How long would it take to render this sort of thing? I'm thinking months. And that's with the material which is already out there. Add in what's to come (and yes, you can safely hope that we're past the halfway mark on that story) and it's got to be over a year. Think about the work involved. The thankless, grueling, unpaid work, because I feel like this is the sort of thing which would normally cost $$$$.$$ and I don't have that kind of $. I mentioned directly that it's probably not a project which Kickstarter or Patreon would really work for, and it occurred to me afterwards that finding a market to sell the finished product is... unlikely. Over a year of someone's life for very little recognition, no payment, and let's face it: the odds of someone at a game studio seeing this on your resume' and having it lead to "So that was you? You're hired!" only reach 1:1 in a Nickelodeon script.
Issue #2, in the event that anything does wind up being sold, is Money, Fair Division Of. We probably don't have to worry about Issue #2.
Issue #3 is creative control. I'm not turning over the steering wheel and then checking back in a year to see where the car wound up. I would want to see how things were going. Get progress reports, have editorial veto. That's going to create clashes. As I understand it, visual novel teams have a way of... conflicting. Coming to near-blows. Self-destructing. Going the full NHK. And then some.
Issues #4 - ∞ may be available upon request, or you can propose your own below. I'm sure there's a lot of things I haven't thought of, or at least didn't mention here. (For starters, he's in Europe, so now we're into international copyright law.) But so far, all I've done is ask for samples, warn him about the time and effort involved, and... bring it up here. And if he sees this -- he's almost guaranteed to see this -- I hope he thinks about it. I mentioned a lot of this in my reply to him, and so I guess this not only forms a followup, but also provides the chance for the group to offer caution. Encouragement. Screaming leaps, possibly through windows.
A visual novel.
It's an incredible idea. I just don't know if it should be anything more than that. Because even with the best concepts, staying true to story, great art and wonderful lyrical pieces... it's a tremendous amount of work for -- what?
Talk me through this one. And if you think it's truly necessary -- talk him out of it.
Flattered, honored, and -- really, really shaky about the requirements for execution.
Well, my 1st thought was that you will have to finish Triptych & that is A Good Thing
My 2nd thought, based on what I've read is artistic control. Most artists don't want Joe Amateur standing over them. On the other hand, I remember (Fred Pohl?) saying that "Based on results, most artists can't read". Get veto rights & get it in writing.
Get your financial commitment in writing (I sort of had the impression that writers didn't put up money, but I admit IDK)
Finally, don't worry too much. From what I've read, over 90% of these things get cancelled before they are released.
That being said, I'd like to see it.
Currently the go-to engine for this sort of thing, so at least they have some idea of the technology involved. The grand majority of visual novels you see on Steam are made with RenPy these days.
Of course, it’s all in how you use it.
You can ask for a mock-up of a single short scene with two characters, that should be easily doable and involve some 5-10 images and most of the low-level programming required to pull this off in the first place.
Mind you, depending on how the medium transition is done, a lot of editing will be required to get the text to flow right. Visual novels, beyond their unashamed multimedia aspects, are a special medium in particular in the way the author has extra capabilities for reading flow control. You can insert a pause for emphasis and it will be observed. You can reveal text backwards and it will work. You can offload some things you would say in text onto visuals, and in fact, you have to, otherwise the experience will be lacking.
If you get it right, it will be breathtaking.
Depending on how fast you get with artwork and whether you’re greedy about per-scene event pictures. Visual novel presentation format evolved to be quite economical with artwork in the first place precisely because it was a problem back in the days of its emergence. A technological problem, early computers just didn't have the memory or disk space.
If you don’t go overboard on the art, though… Umineko no Naku Koro Ni – the original Comiket release – has the most horrid art this side of the century boundary. It’s still one of the most successful works of the decade with huge critical and audience impact and multiple re-releases with better art. Most of the time on that one was spent writing, with a little programming.
…Mind you, something very similar did happen to me once. I didn’t take their offer because they didn’t have the license to do what I wanted to do from the foreign root-publisher of the MMO I hacked apart to make my project, but they did make an offer. It occasionally happens. :)
That’s the way with all teams of people heavily invested in what they’re doing, nothing special about visual novels here.
Sounds quite credible to me.
Admittedly I know absolutely nothing about the visual novel genre and the work it requires, but my first thought is one of scale.
Simply put, I cannot imagine that this could be done by less than a team of people who know what they are doing, and it would take them years. And such a team would have more commercial, less niche projects to reach for.
If this is instead one person learning the engine on their own, flush with the excitement of the new, asking to work on a story because they love the story... Well, Mozart wrote a symphony when he was four years old, supposedly. But the odds that the random person you met online is the new Mozart is rather low.
I would enjoy it a lot even if all we got to see is preview pieces. I don't have any helpful experience to add to that discussion though.
First of all, Triptych is yours. No one gets to tell you what to do. Not readers, not comment posters, not patrons, not nobody. Whatever happens to this project, YOU GET TO SAY NO if you don't like where it's going.
Triptych is BIG. Really big. Not just the plot... Original characters, original locations, original species (the rams the mane 6 fought so many chapters ago), all of which will need to be created. I don't imagine that will be easy.
You've asked for samples, and that's fair. Before diving into Triptych, you might want to think about working on something smaller. Inevitable, from "The Elements of the Elements" would be a good starting point. Short, simple, only three characters in a known location. If you can work together on that with out wanting to kill each other... Well, it's no guarantee you'll both make it through Triptych, but you'll both have a better idea.
Good luck, to both of you.
I'd suggest that they try taking their favorite self-contained scene or one-shot from you and try to make a Visual novel of that first.
trying to do the entirety of Tryptich in one go seems too ambitious right now without having a proof-of-concept
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you seem very informed on the subject! I've been thinking of getting into making visual novels myself.
at the momeny im tinkering around with cloudnovel.com which seems to have all the tools needed to make a VN with the added benefit of hosting those novels on their site for all to see!
if someone made a VN using Ren'py how would they get it online to show everyone?
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Steam, RPGMaker.net, itch.io, Kongregate and other video game sites... Under most things, people set Visual Novels as a type of Video Game.
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There have been several engines like that floating around, ever since web-based games came into fashion. I have yet to see a worthy project made this way myself, but I’m not particularly keeping up with those, toyed a few times trying to produce a js-based engine I liked,⁽¹⁾ but that was it. The downside with this, as with most other cloud options, is that when (not if, usually when) the cloud eventually goes away, there is no way to get your data out when you’re doing something this specialized with it. If you’re doing a quick fan project, it’s perfectly ok. Once you invest a year of your life into working on it, being at someone else’s mercy is going to sting.
RenPy is the way to go in most⁽²⁾ cases these days, and have been for at least five years. There are others, of course, but pretty much none of them get the level of community support RenPy gets, even if they might have their advantages.
RenPy includes a build system that can produce a neat zip file that will run on Windows, Linux and Mac once you unpack it. You have to jump a few more hoops to get an Android version, but not too much. Lots of places will host a zip file for you. :)
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Thanks everyone, ill check those out!
yeah I have been worried about the site I was using because I didnt know how long itd be up for. Its probably safer for me to move to RenPy, then. I'm gonna see if I can find some tutorials on using it and figure out if I can create what I wanted to on that system!
I'm surprised he wants to lead with Triptych. If it works I'll be very happy, but be patient, because this can take a very long time
Since you could put all I know about publishing visual novels into a thimble and have no difficulty inserting your finger, I'll talk about winter coughs instead. Colder air can't hold as much moisture, so you're inhaling dry air. It warms inside you and gains the ability to hold more moisture--which it then carries out of you when you exhale. Result: Dryness in the upper respiratory system, which your body attempts to resolve by generating more ...liquid, which then dries. I'll let you imagine the rest.
Quick and easy solution: Get a small humidifier for your bedroom, and set it to run while you're asleep.
This has been a public service announcement by the Chicken on My Head, LLC.
A fascinating concept, certainly. I agree that doing another, already completed part of the Continuum as a trial run would be advisable. Plus, some of the assets, especially character art, could carry over neatly to a rendition of Triptych. Orange is the New Blue could work excellently with the medium, though something shorter would probably be a better idea.
All I can think is "This looks like a project doomed to failure". :B This fandom actually has a good reputation for finishing things -- stellar, if compared to pretty much the rest of the internet -- but projects still fail all the time, and a labor of love, of one person, doesn't strike me as the kind of thing that will be completed. See release? Likely. But not completed.
But I'm kinda cynical about everything these days, so don't listen to me too much. :B
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Sibling!
Leading with the centerpiece is probably not the best idea. If the fellow is willing to put in the time and effort to make something more without direct monetary compensation, that's quite incredible. But Triptych is a huuuge project to start with, and probably the most prone to clashes. I second all the suggestions to start with something smaller, simpler, and more easily suited to the format. It'll give you two time to work together and figure out if you're both up to it without the weight of the whole structure weighing down on you.
In a metaphor, see if you're game to cut down branches of the tree before you try to take the whole thing down. Best case scenario is the eventual felling is easier on everyone, worst case scenario, you've got a few broken branches.
It's an amount of work that, honestly, I wouldn't really wish on any single person. I can speak from experience, taking on massive artistic projects without fully considering the sheer volume of effort that's needed for them can be grueling. Draining, even. I've experienced burnout due to waaay smaller projects, let alone comics or classwork. A graphic (or visual, I suppose) novel of this scale would require a team of people, rather than just one, in my opinion.
But, if they're really up to it and if they really can handle the task they're pitting themselves against, more power to them. I just hope they know what they're doing.
That said, I would definitely be one of the people to buy a copy.
4337047 Oliver, I like the cut of your jib, all pretty sound advice.
Seconding (or thirding?) the thought that if the mock up goes alright, you could have just a small chunk of the story done to keep the scope manageable, or a shorter story if they aren't dead set on Tryptch. One person working on the entire released story would take an age and a day, just setting the text would be an endeavor.
The first real issue that should be of any concern is cost. In considering that cost, consider also that as a product, a Triptych visual novel being made with the intent of selling it for money would likely not meet satisfactory requirements to pass muster under Fair Use copyright legislation, ultimately leading to legal action by Hasbro, including but not limited to the same kinds of Cease and Desist notices and threats of legal action that have put the kibosh on several fan-made projects in the past. Unless you are prepared to weather that particular storm, and it would be a costly one even with the law on your side, it is not something many would recommend. If when all is said and done, the developer who reached out to you is hoping they might derive some sort of monetary profit from this venture, I would simply state that it is not worth your time to even consider, and advise you to turn them down.
Now, if the intent of the email was to acquire your blessing and cooperation on a visual novel project ultimately intended to be free of charge, then the scenario changes. In that instance, your only concern stems from what compromises must be reached between yourself and the developer, and that is an easy solution. You did not reach out to this individual, they came to you, which gives you all the bargaining power.
If the thought of a Triptych visual novel appeals to you, then simply stipulate your terms. Let them flatly know that you have no means by which to realistically fund the project, and it thus must be done on their own dime. If they are still interested, inform them that you will require creative control over the project, and will insist on regular updates and veto power over any changes or additions the developer might wish to implement. If the developer is agreeable to all of these things, there is little else to concern yourself with beyond GETTING EVERYTHING IN WRITING. Legally speaking, this is the realm of fanfiction, and you have little to no recourse should someone break contract with you, except in the "Court of Public Opinion." To that end, however, getting the agreement in clear writing will ensure that if the developer later parts ways with you, you will have an excellent tool to use against them should they attempt to further use your creative material without your permission or cooperation.
With all that said, this is ultimately a decision you will have to make using your own judgment. We can give you all the advice in the world, but you'll have to be the one to take the risk. Just know that, whether or not you decide to go through with it, you have a fanbase that will continue supporting you.
Now...for my personal opinions on the matter. I apologize for this wall of text.
Frankly, I don't think Triptych would work well with the visual novel formula, and my reasons are twofold. First, because there needs to be some sort of method by which adding a visual component would grant added "reward" over simply reading the printed word. This is why so many visual novels are romance-centric, with the visual "reward" being images pertaining to the progress one has achieved in their relationship with their chosen "Love Interest." I can think of little with Triptych that would serve well as "reward" in a visual novel adaptation. Second, and this is subjective and stems from my own personal tastes, I have always felt the best visual novels were the many-branched, multiple-ending stories that grant the player a large personal stake in the tale by having a mostly "blank slate" protagonist capable of making choices that affect the direction of the narrative, as well as their relationships to supporting characters. Unless you strive to vastly alter the nature of the visual novel adaptation by creating a slew of extra material for it (and an entirely new protagonist, given that Twilight Sparkle and the rest of the Mane 6, as they are written in Triptych, would serve as less than stellar "blank slate" choices for the player), I feel that Triptych is simply not a narrative conducive to adaptation into visual novel format.
Anyway, there is my two cents on the matter. Feel free to do with it what you will. Come what may, I will continue to support your work on Patreon, and look forward to future updates.
Best wishes,
~Bones~
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Heck just look at pony fan games in general. I'm trying to think which 'big' one finished. The only completed one I recall is Super Lesbian Horse RPG which was more 'Suddenly it appeared!' than a big project
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I think a lack of continual updating and hype helps, actually. :B
I mean, just look at me.I'd start with the following: Be very, very careful.
BrushinBones brings up the important legal question that nobody likes to acknowledge: MLP does not belong to us, it belongs to Hasbro. They have been very good about letting the fan community flourish, but there comes a point when they have to take action, and the point of making money out of the franchise is where the line will be.
That said, I would agree with a lot of the below. Triptych is really too big for a first go at this. Something small and relatively simple like Pinkie Pie vs the Souflee might be better to sound out the waters. If after that you are OK with them, then start thinking about larger things.
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I would suggest pinkie has infiltrated the changeling base it had a nice self contained story
My vote would be for naked lunch, this story is just the right length. Triptych is a very big story I think that person might be overwhelmed, unless they have a history of large productions.
Also Crossing guard is awesome