What's the Deal with Starlight Glimmer? · 11:44pm Jun 10th, 2016
If there's one thing this fandom is good at, it's drama. I have never been involved in a community that, down to even some of the smallest subgroups that I've been involved in, revolves so heavily on drama. Now that Twilicorn has had a couple of years to die down, it's time to shift our focus to the latest polarizer in our cute little pony show: Starlight Glimmer.
Yes, our Twilight Sparkle character foil #30205. I don't like her. A lot of other people don't like her, and there's a very good reason behind that. I've been putting some thought into why, and what could be done to change that little fact around the fandom. We've got to have a serious discussion about her eventually. I'm sure many of you are tired of the drama, but I'm going to try to bring some reason into the discussion.
This is going to be a couple thousand words of me bitching about Starlight Glimmer, but don't confuse it for a hate piece. I know she's not going away, so I want to provide some constructive ways to make her a meaningful part of the show.
Okay, so hear me out here. I don't hate Starlight Glimmer. I don't like her as of right now, but I certainly don't hate her. This may be shocking to some of my fellow hardcore opinionators, but I don't think she's a lost cause. I'm not of the opinion that adding her to the show is the death of our little pony parade, but I'm also of the opinion the show probably would've been better off had we just left her as the disparaged would-be communist dictator that she was at the beginning of Season 5.
Starlight has been a main part of the weakest season finale and subsequent premiere in all of Gen 4's history for me. The combination of those boring two-parters definitely played a part in my dislike for Starlight, especially seeing as it provided such a poor backstory for her. I could go into why those two two-parters were weak (not necessarily outright bad, but I actually skipped through the episodes in some places because I was bored and I felt I had better things to do. I've never done that with MLP episodes before) but that is an entirely different blog post to be made. Now, I'm just going to dive into Starlight Glimmer as a character, and explain what makes me dislike her so much.
So, we can't get into an analysis about Starlight without mentioning Sunset. One of my followers actually made a very accurate statement about her in my mind: An ersatz Sunset (ersatz basically meaning an inferior substitute). Starlight follows an extremely similar character set up to my one and only Sunset: turned evil after being spurned, enacting her evil scheme and harming a bunch of lives in the process, being defeated by Twilight and her friends, setting up a plan to get revenge for losing to Twilight and her friends, failing yet again, getting reformed rather quickly, now best friends with all the girls. I know the comparison is a bit loose in some regards--the time gap between the first defeat and second defeat is like 30 seconds for Sunset and an entire season for Starlight--but the comparison still holds up pretty strongly.
Why does this detract from Starlight? Well, because now it makes her unoriginal, and pits her up against an arguably indisputably better character. This already is going to knock off points with a lot of people, and I know for a fact there wouldn't be nearly as much scrutiny on her origin if she had followed a different formula from Sunset. I know that a case can be made that it's different enough that the word "exact" can't be used, but is it really enough to silence that comparison? The answer is no. This fact is made even worse by the fact that Sunset's origin story is leagues better. A spurned former student of Celestia vs. someone who fell out with a friend when they were younger. A harsh defeat and a character arc about trying to come back from everything she's done to be a good friend vs. someone who got defeated and barely shows remorse and even makes the occasional snarky comment about it. A huge amount of time to be redeemed between movies vs. being redeemed in the space of like 30 seconds. Do you see how this comparison might make Starlight look bad yet? I know I have a bias towards my waifu, but even if I didn't this kind of shit is pretty damning for Starlight.
Now I'm going to say something that may shock some of you: I don't think Sunset should be in Starlight's place. That's right; if I had the option to replace Starlight with Sunset right now, I wouldn't do it. Why? Because that's completely counterintuitive to everything Sunset has been built up for. She needs to move forward learning by herself, with her own friends, not their carbon copy under Twilight's lackluster teaching abilities. I think Sunset is much better off where she is right now than being in Starlight's place. The two are leagues apart when it comes to their need for a friendship teacher, and Sunset would be much better off on her own at this point. So when it comes to Starlight's place as Twilight's student, I think it's a justified position that Sunset really would feel out of place filling.
Now that we've established that Starlight has been set up as a worse version of Sunset Shimmer, and thrown out the notion that Sunset should be in her place, let's drop the comparisons and actually look at what's wrong with Starlight.
Because you suck.
First: her backstory/motivations. Right out of the gate, Starlight takes a hit for being a somewhat flimsy villain. Even the presentation of her backstory was pretty dumb in the episode: I mean, she just casually takes Twilight to see it after being locked in a death battle with her. Really?This lack of emotional consistency and realistic reactions are pretty par for the course in Josh Haber's writing, honestly. Her inadequacy and abandonment are believable, but not nearly enough to justify her actions. I don't really buy that she built up an entire village of minions just because she feels bad about not taking the same path as her childhood friend. Even moreso, I don't see her trying to mess with time itself because "if I can't have my way you can't either" nonsense that happened in the season 5 finale. These motivations are flimsy for the scale at which they've been applied. All the previous villains have had very good reasons for doing the awful things they've done: being trapped in the moon for a thousand years, being encased in stone for god knows how long after losing, being beaten and trapped in Tartarus, wanting to take back his former empire, wanting to enslave ponies and provide food for her subjects, etc.. Then you have Starlight, who lost a friend when she was younger and is still upset about it. Compared to past villains, she's kinda uninteresting when all this is taken into account.
Second: her abilities. By this, I mean how absolutely powerful she is in comparison to Twilight. She's mastered control over time, can erase other ponies' cutie marks, can easily go toe to toe hoof to hoof with Twilight and come out on top. How? Twilight is an alicorn: the most magically powerful species in all of Equestria. Twilight also has access to the most plentiful libraries and resources on magic in the entire country (and possibly the whole world). Starlight has been on the outskirts of Equestria and stalking Twilight up until the season five finale. How could she possibly compete with Twilight Sparkle in terms of magic? You can certainly come up with plenty of ad hoc explanations, but in the end I just don't see how Starlight could possibly be as powerful an actual alicorn. There may have been a line I missed in one of the episodes about it, but even if it was explained it seems rather ridiculous. This hurts her character's capacity to be believable and therefore hurts her character as a whole.
Third: her redemption. I'll fully admit that Sunset's redemption happened pretty quickly. I would've rather her crawled out of that pit still broken and crying, but still defensive and unsure about friendship, leaving her redemption to happen over the space between the movies. That being said, it can still be assumed that her redemption happened mostly between the two movies and is left to the imagination, unlike Starlight. Starlight's redemption happened literally within maybe 40 seconds. The entire group just kinda accepted her with barely any complaints or reservations at all. One second she's fighting with Twilight and the next they're breaking bread in the castle. Like, I understand MLP only has so much time to work with, but being this rushed does not an enjoyable character arc make. Starlight was way too open to the idea as well, since after one conversation she completely let go of her lust for revenge in favor of Twilight's way. If her convictions are really that flimsy, why did she go so far to try to ruin Twilight's life in the first place? This all makes for a character that a lot of people really aren't going to be that interested in, and makes it rather obvious that they're trying to rush in a reason to keep the show going in a new direction rather than an organic addition to our favorite group of ponies.
Finally: her characterization. We've been given so little of her that every time I see her I just get annoyed. Starlight hardly seems to regret her past transgressions, going as far as to make passing remarks about her actions in a lighthearted tone. She doesn't seem all that remorseful besides maybe one scene with Sunburst, and even then it almost seems like all she's worried about are what other ponies might think of her going forward, not actually trying to make up for what she's done. She's been characterized as a bit of a snarky sociopath, which is something of a good and a bad thing. This is bad because it doesn't really lend well with her potential as a reformed villain. She doesn't seem to really care too much about putting effort into being reformed, as a lot of Twilight's lessons seem almost like a chore to her. This is good though, as it does present some opportunities for character growth as she learns to care for others, which might go a long way to making her more likeable. The main problem, I think, is that she hasn't had shit for proper characterization since she got reformed. I mean, we have some basic character traits, but besides the Trixie episode, she's barely gotten any specific attention in building up what makes her tick. This makes her even less interesting as a character, as she's been shunted into the mane six without even giving us a chance at liking her, and from what we've already been given, we have plenty of reason to dislike her already.
Her being overpowered, snarky and somewhat annoying, having shitty backstory and motivations, and a half-minute redemption all leads her to having the absolute worst start a recurring character can get, and makes her seem like a last-minute addition because some CEO's daughter wanted her OC in the show. This is why people don't like her, and I think this is a completely justifiable position to hold. Starlight should never have been added in, or she should've been given a better chance by a better writer (looking at you Josh Haber. I'm still not forgiving you for The Friendship Games). Right now, Starlight Glimmer sucks. She's basically a representation of a desperate effort to (lazily) spark some interest in the show with a brand new spin. She was poorly implemented in the first place, and now she's pretty much nothing but a nuisance that the writers have to work around. Have you noticed that most of the episodes this season don't even include her? And most of them that do aren't all that great. I think even the writers have realized they're better off trying to focus on their mane cast.
So there is my dissertation on why Starlight Glimmer sucks as a character right now. But how can we change that? Presenting all these problems about Starlight without any meaningful solution isn't productive in the slightest. Taking all these things that I've thought over, I think there is a very real and viable way to make Starlight Glimmer a meaningful part of My Little Pony going forward. Since we know she isn't going anywhere--barring any Charlie Sheen-esque departures (don't get any ideas; I'm sure Kelly Sheridan is a very nice lady)--so with that in mind, what can we do going forward? Well, I have a few ideas about that.
Get ready for a full-character makeover~
Now, first thing's first: we have to do something about her backstory. Being spurned by a friend and having some abandonment issues are not enough to push her to the drastic measures she went to. However, there are many, many years between when Sunburst abandoned Starlight and when Twilight found her. This is the perfect opportunity to go back and show just what lead Starlight down this evil path, and what caused her to be so sociopathic in many senses. This isn't going to make up for the lackluster season finale that we got, but it will put some more momentum behind Starlight's motivations, and I think that will go a very long way into making her a more believable character.
Next, I think what we have to do going forward is give her more screentime. Yes, I can hear the hundreds of groans from here, but listen to me: Starlight is never going to be an interesting character if she only gets a single episode every couple of months. She needs to be much better characterized to give us something to hold on to and appreciate. You know all those sweet, slice of life episodes about friendship involving some relationship-building between two or so characters? Like Testing Testing 1 2 3, Look Before You Sleep, Trade Ya, Amending Fences, and so many more? This is what Starlight needs. She needs to be stuck with one or two of the mane six at a time to have her character grate against theirs so we can see more of her and what makes her tick, and eventually have her grow closer to them and be a better part of the group. That kind of thing is what made us fall in love with the girls in the first place. We can't come to like Starlight if this season ends up leaving her out of every single episode except for a small handful. I'll honestly admit that I appreciated her absence at first, but I've come to realize that this is not the right way to have a character become a frequent part of the show. We either need to have more of Starlight, or have her go completely. And since one of those things definitely isn't going to happen, she needs more screentime to make her a more likeable character. I've come very close to getting used to Starlight, maybe not liking her, but getting used to her. I know they can make something satisfying out of her, they just need to treat her more as another one of the girls to build relationships up between, not a nuisance that the better episodes do without.
As for my other problems with her, I really don't know how they're supposed to fix those. Her being that powerful compared to Twilight is always going to be dumb. There's really no fixing that without a retcon. And there is no way we can go back and change the painfully short process of accepting her into the mane six. The only thing that can really be done for that now is to present her as a character that has a lot more to learn, and give her the opportunity to really do that learning
So cheer up, Starlight. Even someone as overly critical and jaded as me still has hope for you yet. As much as you and your time in the show so far has irritated me, I still think you can be something special in this series with the right direction.
Now that my thoughts are out of the way, what do you think? Is Starlight fine like she is, or does she need some major work? Is she better off being killed off by a falling piano, or do you think she has the potential to be a valuable character in the show? Tell me what you think, and I'm sure I missed some pretty key points, so be sure to fill me in on anything important I may have missed.
Ya she always felt like..."We need a villain for season 5...um...eh this will do." Like what she's done is interesting and creative, but...it honestly just doesn't feel like they put a lot of effort into her.
I'm fine with her.
I haven't watched MLP since S3 (I still haven't seen the finale) but ho-ly SHIT that was a well written essay. I enjoyed it through and through. You did a great job of explaining your points and everything you said so that I (someone who hasn't seen this character at all) got a decent feel for them. Your explanation on how to fix them as a character was good too, it makes sense that shunting a character to the sidelines isn't a good way to make them interesting.
I want Starlight to drop off the edge of a cliff.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that there's hope for her character. With some good writing and interesting episodes, Starlight could eventually become a fan favorite, rather than this polarizing force of contention.
But I don't really care.
The writers fucked up, her backstory is asinine, her characterization is almost completely incompatible with main and other recurring characters, and while I can't speak for everyone, I know that even if they made her better going forward, I'd always have the bad taste in my mouth that is the finale of Season 5.
I would rather they put forth the kind of energy that would be required to turn Starlight into a generally well-liked character into new and interesting things, rather than spend time fixing something that was broken from the start.
Pretty much everything I have ever said ever regarding Starlight as a character, so obviously I agree with pretty much everything, maybe aside from one portion saying they might not've had enough time to make her redemption interesting. I always find this to be a bad excuse for people to say that was a good reason for her redemption being bad. It was somewhat understandable with say, Discord because he had a regular-ass half-hour episode. Starlight did not. Her entire appearance was in an hour long two parter. It could've been easily fixed if they didn't focus so heavily on some things that didn't even really need to be focused on. So you can imagine I don't consider that a justifiable excuse for her reformation being crap.
In addition to everything else said here, it could also be partially something I like to call "The Call of Duty Infinite Warfare effect" We've gotten so many reformed antagonists, in Season 5 more than any other season by the way, and it's gotten really predictable and boring because it's been done so much (similar to the Call of Duty games taking place mostly in space now.) and since the beginning of villains being shown we've wanted more than anything a recurring villain that shows up time and time again to cause trouble and isn't just a one-off villain that never seems to come back. A lot of people were hoping Starlight would be that villain after she ran off at the S5 premiere. But now that she's reformed, I also get the feeling that some people consider this the last straw and are like "Okay, enough is enough. Stop reforming villains and actually leave someone as an asshole for once and don't just never bring them back if they are still evil." There's been several hints of Chrysalis making a return this season though so hopefully that happens.
But that's just my two-cents on the matter of Starlight. Second least favorite character of mine.
4013793
Who's the first?
4013744
Thanks! College has given me a lot of practice.
4013752
I agree with all that, tbh. I would much rather see that screentime being spent on building the characters I already really care about. The real problem is that, unfortunately, Starlight is here to stay. I figure we should at least attempt to make the best of a bad situation, or if not, push her off to the side even more so we can get more mane six episodes.
I think we need an episode explaining her backstory more.
4013812
Zephyr.
He's seriously the worst. Every second he was on the screen I wanted to slap him, he was so obnoxious and annoying. I know that was the point but it really does not make him any easier to watch.
They need to find a way to make her different enough from Sunset because that's everyones or mostly everyones big issue, that she is trying to replace Sunset when they could have easily just brought Sunset home to Equestria. Hell i personally think Sunset and Starlight would be best friends considering how much they have in common. Is Starlight perfect? No...is she a bad character in comparison so douche ponies like Zephyr Breeze and Spoiled Rich? HELL FUCKING NO!
She has an...interesting back story...it has holes in it and isn't fully fleshed out but its fleshed out enough. Her personality is quite appealing now that she isn't evil anymore, her design is really nice, her singing voice is pretty good, her facial expressions are priceless...I like her as a character and for me as of right now she's mostly a source for good theorizing and fan fiction as her character develops over the course of the season.
4013853 I think people hate Starlight and ponies like Zephyr and Spoiled Rich for different reasons.
A lot of people hate Starlight because she was a poorly written character and don't like how the entire universe just wants to ignore everything that she ever did as if it were no big deal and it's frustrating (you really expect me to believe that the ponies she brainwashed forgave her in the span of a second?). Not to mention her reformation and current status as a character isn't that good. Overall wasted story potential.
People hate Zephyr and Spoiled because one is a huge asshole that doesn't shut up about himself and has an annoying as hell voice, and the other verbally abuses her kid (and there isn't anything at the end of Crusaders of the Lost Mark that says she doesn't still do this by the way) and neither are enjoyable to watch, even in a love to hate sense.
Different reasons, but garner a lot of hatred
4013871 yeah i get where your coming from, again; Starlight isn't perfect by any means...her story and arc overall have a SHIT TON of holes in it and your right her reformation with the lack of consequence is very stretch of the imagination though the way i see it is this...Sunset ruled like a tyrant over CHS for about 2 and a half years, bullied abused and was a queen bitch to everyone, then turned into a raging she demon and tried to flat out MURDER Twilight and her friends and march an army on Equestria after stealing the element of magic not to mention all the shit she probably had to do in order to stay low key in the human world and all that.
So like i said, Starlight is a character i can like because i can see potineal for development but Sunset will always to me be god tier level character(and waifu) because not only is just a super great character but she's really earned all that she's got more or less and i try not to hate a character if i can relate to them especially and I can relate to both Starlight and Sunset; why? We've all done things we aren't proud of and not everyone is good at making friends...plus im a sucker for redemption characters like...One of the reasons i like Sunset so much is because she reminds me and a lot of people of Princess Luna cause if you take a close look they are VERY identical and thats great because everyone says Luna is best princess .
While I have nothing to say about most of what you said (as I agree with it wholeheartedly), I will raise the same point I've raised in every discussion of Starlight being able to match Twilight when it came to a battle of magic in the past. The difference between knowledge, power, and skill.
Does Twilight have more raw magical power than any other pony? Yes, Celestia has confirmed that in show repeatedly. Is she an incredibly brilliant mage? Absolutely, we've had entire episodes dedicated to that. Is she an accomplished duelist when it comes to hurling spells at opponents?
...eh?
Don't get me wrong, Twilight is certainly powerful and quick to adapt in adverse situations...but before the battle with Starlight, the only combat spell we've ever seen Twilight use is "shoot it with a laser" or "throw a rock (rock equivalent) at it". She certainly has a special talent for magic, but this does not make her a combat mage.
Now let's look at Starlight. If she turned her back on friendship after Sunburst, then she likely relied on herself alone for her entire life, trusting no one. That sort of mindset leads to training to handle anything on the assumption that other ponies would be trying to hurt her or take advantage of her. So while Twilight was studying magic as a scholar, Starlight would be studying it as a survival skill. While Twilight's theoretical magic is far more vast than Starlight's entire magical knowledge pool, Starlight likely knows far more practical magic than her, and certainly more combat magic.
Thus, when they first met in magical combat, Starlight immediately got the drop on Twilight with combat magic spells which Twilight didn't know...only for Twilight to be able to cast the same spell against Starlight at the very next confrontation, when she certainly had no time for study...meaning she was able to fully analyze the spells Starlight used against her just by having them used on her. And people say Starlight is OP.
As for why Twilight had so much trouble hitting Starlight with spells, it's like a body builder fighting a trained martial artist. The bodybuilder is going to hit a lot harder, but he's only going to be able to hit in so many ways, and he's going to have a lot harder time hitting the martial artist.
That's the comparison I drew from the fight, and from all interactions - magical and otherwise - since. Twilight is the more powerful mage, and the one with more theoretical knowledge...but Starlight's studies prior to the time spell were completely focused on practical magic and combat. With that difference, she wouldn't have to be capable of matching Twilight's raw power to best her in battle...she'd just need to match whatever output Twilight was willing to risk when she was trying to prevent a disruption to the timeline, not cause one. With Twilight operating on that great a self-imposed handicap, I don't find the outcome as hard to believe.
...the rest of what you said I think is dead on, though. And this is not to say the way this aspect has been presented so far isn't a problem. Just because there is an explanation doesn't excuse the writers from not explaining it. Just that it's not that difficult to believe.
ok honestly i hate when people shit on Starlight. it just pisses me off when people go on these long ass rants about her and some people actually refuse to watch any episodes with her in it and all i have to say to those people are "did your mommy never say i love you" because honestly these people act like Starlight just killed there dog with how they have treated her and it just tells me how some bronies take things WAY too seriously if this pisses them off. i mean i wanted her to stay as a villain too but sometimes you don't get what you want and I accepted that and honestly i like her character so far. i mean i do agree with some of your points like her backstory was shit and she needs more screentime because that was the biggest issue i had with Saddle Row Review was where was Starlight in all of this (Spike too) so while i will disagree with you on certain criticisms i will respect your opinion at least you didn't rant on how much she sucks and say she is ruining the show also
THANK YOU!
i have been saying forever that Sunset doesn't need to be in Starlights place because at this point she is more situated as a teacher to human Twilight then be a student to pony Twilight and it seems that Sunset has accepted the human universe as her home now so i don't think she wants to come back at least not fulltime maybe she will make an appearance in the next movie who knows but i agree Sunset doesn't need to be in Starlights place
4014048
That really doesn't hold up very well for me. Do you really think Twilight would have less knowledge of practical combat spells in comparison to Starlight? A pony that lived in the same village for the majority of her life and didn't have anywhere close to the resources that Twilight has had for her entire life vs. a pony that had access to every single document on magic available to the crown and is an absolutely voracious reader to boot? Twilight has undoubtedly read leagues more about whatever "combat magic" you can imagine Equestria has than Starlight. You're basically assuming an extravagant backstory for Starlight just to explain this, which is pretty ad hoc tbh.
There's really no evidence to support that explanation that Starlight somehow got more combat experience. How exactly did she get this living in the same village her entire life with an extremely short supply of magical texts? And who exactly would she have to fight? This explanation really just raises more questions about Starlight than it answers, and the only answer it really provides is an excuse for Starlight being more powerful than an alicorn.
What this really represents is a lack of ability to make up a convincing conflict. If Twilight had been able to easily outclass Starlight then pretty much the entire conflict of the season finale wouldn't work (and don't we know a certain someone who just loves contrivances for plot convenience). I doubt the writer (Josh Haber) focused much on the believability of Starlight outclassing Twilight to such a degree. She could have had some epic adventure and become a master warrior in the time between losing her friend and meeting Twilight, but does that seem very realistic for what her needs actually were? She wanted everyone to be equal under her rule, not to fight everyone into submission. Even pre-ascension Twilight should dominate Starlight just about any form of magic. I honestly just can't buy that Starlight somehow had a better grasp on any sort of magic to a degree where she could feasibly defeat an alicorn princess.
I think the thing that bugged me most about Starlight was that she seemed to be a different character in the Season 5 Finale from what we were shown in the Season 5 Premier.
In the Cutie Map, I never really got the impression that she actually believed in what she was saying; that by getting rid of cutie marks, it would help everyone achieve true friendship. It really just seemed like that they were trying to showcase her ability to manipulate others to get what benefits her, at their expense.
The part in particular that cemented this was near the end, when Starlight tries to escape with the Mane Six's Cutie Marks, saying how they would like it without their 'precious Cutie Marks'. If she really believed that Cutie Marks inevitably destroyed friendships, wouldn't keeping them away from the Mane Six ultimately be beneficial to them? But instead, it was plain that she was trying to punish them by doing so.
(Come to think of it, why did she decide to keep their marks separate from everyone else? I remember her saying that they were special when asked about it, but then it was just kinda dropped. When I first watched it, I actually thought it was foreshadowing to her being the accomplice or something to the real Big Bad of the season, who maybe gained power by devouring Cutie Marks, or something. Hell, it could even explain why Starlight was so powerful, if she was getting tutored in dark magic by someone else.)
So when the Season Finale came by, and tried to show Starlight acting like she actually did care about the other villagers, and did think that Twilight and Co. were in the wrong for stopping her, it just made me raise an eyebrow.
Add that in her incredibly forced backstory, (Honestly, the part that really broke my suspension of disbelief was the idea that Sunburst's parent sent him away to some far-away school the very same day he got cutie mark. It really felt like Starlight was embellishing that fact for fake sympathy, which made her reformation even less sincere to me.) her character just felt very poorly thought out, and ultimately left a bitter taste in my mouth, which Season 6 has yet to cleanse.
What's even worse is that I think the Finale would've been better if that had cut out the Nightmare Moon segment for more Starlight Glimmer backstory and redemption portion. While the Sombra segment helped showcase something was very wrong for Twilight and Spike, and the Chrysalis segment provided exposition to the timeline changing due to Zecora; I can't really recall the Nightmare providing anything plot relevant other than showcase NMM as a complete moron. (Honestly, it was embarrassing how easily Twilight played her.)
I think I remember a tweet saying that Starlight's arc wasn't planned out when they started working on it, and I really think it shows.
She kinda reminds me of Flash Sentry in a way; a character who is essentially a background character, and then shoved into the foreground, only for the writers refuse to do anything meaningful with her when she shows up.
So while I would think that there's hope for Starlight, I just don't know if I can trust the writers to come up with anything.
4014162
I have an easy explanation for how Starlight could learn more practical and combat magic than Twilight, whatever the resources.
Because before the events of the series, Twilight would have no reason to focus on practical magic beyond telekinesis since she was a pure scholar, and Celestia was actively steering her away from combat magic to prevent her from becoming another Sunset.
Also, where's the evidence that Starlight lived in the same village her whole life? The village where she was friends with Sunburst obviously wasn't "Our Town" - even if you could argue a transformation as she took over, the buildings are in the wrong arrangement in the flashback - so she obviously moved and lived on her own at some point.
4014162 Josh Haber loves plot armor to death that's why she was OP. One irrefutable thing people like to point out about Starlight, as she is presented right now, is that she is a Mary Sue in every sense of the word.
I've...got a lot of disdain towards her in case you haven't noticed.
4014186
I actually just watched the season finale episode back and I remember the building styles being very similar to the ones in the season five premiere, but I haven't actually watched that one back since I did my review, so it might be different.
But onto the second ad hoc explanation: Why exactly would Celestia fear her using practical magic in relation to Sunset? Sunset would've been in pretty much the same situation as Twilight barring her ambition. Unless I missed something in the comics, I'd imagine Celestia just wouldn't want her to be overly-ambitious, and she certainly wouldn't want her to know the endgame of her studies. But pushing her away from practical magic in relation to Sunset? And even if Celestia could somehow steer her away, don't you think Twilight would get curious and read up on some of these techniques, given her intense interest in the subject of magic and, I'm sure, anything pertaining to it? I think you might be stretching it a bit there.
Also that still doesn't really account for the inconsistency in Starlight's own needs for magic. Why exactly would she need to be an accomplished magical duelist? She doesn't technically have a reason to know how to fight against other unicorns either. And how would her experience on her own trump Twilight's extremely in-depth knowledge about magic? These explanations really just end up raising more and more questions. Sure, Starlight may have gone up some mystical mountain and had some karate kid-esque experience. I'm not saying it's completely impossible, I'm just saying that I really don't think it's even close to believable with what we know about the two characters.
4014196
Why can't the people who assign the writers to these big projects see that.
4014232
Except that when Twilight was being trained by Celestia, she became so neurotic that (slight exaggeration) she wouldn't even wipe her nose unless Celestia said so. All Celestia would have to do to steer Twilight away from things she didn't want her to read is say, "We'll get to those later," and shove a different book in her face. And I didn't say Celestia steered Twilight away from practical magic, I said she steered her away from combat magic, and that Twilight's own interests took her more into the theoretical/esoteric. (For example, how practical is a spell that lets you put yourself in a book?)
Also, aside from combat lasers, Starlight actually only used one combat spell (the crystal cage, as I call it), one practical spell (self levitation), and one esoteric spell (the alteration of the time travel spell). Between that, her Cutie Mark removal spell, and the make-them-talk spell she used on Big Mac, we have seen her use exactly five spells aside from basic telekinesis (I'm pretty sure she didn't even teleport during the battle). Alternatively, Twilight is confirmed to have 25 different spells in her repertoire back in Boast Busters.
So while Twilight does have far more spells in her library, it makes sense that Starlight would be more familiar with her smaller list, and more versatile in her use of each. The difference between specializing and generalizing.
4014282
But you did say practical. Also, in the very first episode, Celestia told Twilight explicitly to make some friends, which she basically ignored as she decided she was right, so I don't think she was quite as tightly under her hoof as you make her out to be. And none of that actually accounts for what it has to do with Sunset and why Celestia would be worried with the relation between the two.
Also the specifics about the spells are kinda moving the goalposts. I said:
Just the fact that she could even come close to outmaneuvering Twilight in terms of magical ability, even within practical ability seems absolutely ridiculous to me. Twilight's probably studied every last little detail about magic, and you're telling me Starlight has practiced a few spells more so she wins? So you're telling me that Twilight had no way in her massive repertoire of spells to get herself out of those situations? It just seems so obviously a plot convenience to me rather than an opening for some actual explanation.
4014333
I'm not saying Twilight had no way out in her massive repertoire. I'm saying that, given her repertoire was so massive, she didn't have time to think through the whole thing to get out of said situation.
To put it another way...if you've memorized 375 recipes, how long does it take you to mentally go through them to find the one you're trying to bake? And how effectively can you do so if you only have 5 seconds to get started before you get zapped?
4014348
That 375 is going to get whittled down quick when you realize the ingredient you have to work with is something very specific. I wouldn't be going over the complexities of field stripping my combat rifle as a possibility when someone's running at me with a knife, and I don't think Twilight would have to pour over hundreds of spells to think up a counter to Starlight's rather simplistic attack.
And with how many massive, stressful, equestria's-on-the-line-so-if-I-don't-win-we're-doomed situations Twilight is in, I feel like she would handle a combat situation better than Starlight would regardless (I know she used the elements in most of them, I'm just saying she would be a lot more mentally prepared for quick thinking in highly stressful situations than Starlight). What would have been better is if Starlight hadn't come at Twilight with a direct attack, and instead continually caught her off guard by hiding, sneaking, etc., since she should know she isn't going to come out on top in a direct battle with her. That would be a lot more believable to me, honestly.
4014371
Perhaps a different metaphor is in order to make my point.
Let's say that every spell Twilight knows is a Magic: The Gathering card. If she has that many, how long would it take her to sort through them all to find the specific one for the situation, no matter how well they're organized?
4014348 Are you really implying that an average person has the same mind skills than Twilight Sparkle? Because from what we've seen of her, Twilight Sparkle is no average human or pony when it comes to mental tasks.
4014387
That's not really how memories work, though. Like, my own analogy still kind of applies. If someone's running at me with a knife, I wouldn't have to sort through a hundred different memories about all the different knife constructions that I know of, or all the uses for a good survival knife. Yeah, they're still related to knives in some way, but my mind isn't going to bother with that information when I know a few specific ways to counter said attack. Even then my brain is going to filter down the best one to the situation, given the relation of how the move might best counter the specifics of the way they're coming at me.
In the same way, Twilight isn't going to have to sort through her ability to turn things into a fruit or how to send magical clones back to the portal to battle Starlight. She'd probably think up a few different spells to counter it, but not nearly enough to overload her intelligent mind and cause her to be defeated.
Excellent blog, I agree with literally all of it.
One more parallel (or actually the opposite of it) I would like to point out between Starlight and Sunset is that while Sunset went from boring villain to best character after reformation Starlight was imo the best villain before her reformation (starting with the backstory) turned her into a boring character.
4014400
I'm not talking memories. I'm talking spells. It's why nearly every magic system in tabletop games involves preparing spells ahead of time.
Let's say Twilight instantly recognizes the spell being thrown at her. Her mind then has to go through what she knows of the spell being thrown at her to determine all the ways she can counter it, and then determine what the best counter method is to select, and then select said counter method. And with how analytical Twilight is, that's going to take a few seconds...which in combat she doesn't have.
4014444
This isn't a tabletop game; Twilight doesn't have to go into a menu and select a spell. It's in her memory. That's what I was talking about. Making a distinction between the two is kinda missing the point. My entire argument still applies to this concept. It's not going to take Twilight more than a second at most to decide what's the best reaction to a certain situation. I think you're putting arbitrary limits on Twilight at this point just to fit her defeat into a more believable context.
4014459
The systems in Tabletop games are supposed to give realism to an unreal setting. Realistically, if you know several hundred spells, it doesn't make sense for you to be able to utilize any and all of them instantly, while it is realistic to be able to utilize those you've used repeatedly or recently reviewed instantly. Even going through all her skills would take a few moments.
Or, to put it another way...I'm a math whiz. But it's still going to take me a few seconds or more to remember a particular formula for a problem I haven't had to solve in over a year.
4014387 So your the kind of guy that thinks a Sorcerer focused on one discipline of magic is better in situation that call on it then a Wizard focused on variety of spells. Me too
But, while Starlight's magic might have been superior when they were the same level, so early season 3 twi, I think? Twilight is far stronger now. No matter how you focused a caster is, with that power difference even if Twilight responded by only casting the same spells as Starlight she should have easily beaten her through sheer strength
4014518
That would be true...
If Twilight were willing to risk the stability of the timeline by striking with her full power. But she wasn't. So she was artificially hobbling herself in the fight, because Starlight was willing to do more to win than Twilight was.
And that is the fundamental difference between them during the fight. Starlight was willing to do whatever it took to get what she wanted, even kill. Twilight wasn't. And that is what let Starlight overwhelm Twilight despite the massive difference in power.
4014502
This isn't a math problem either. You're comparing apples to oranges and viewing this situation from wrong perspective. You made a comparison to a tabletop game and a math problem. I don't know if you've ever actually been in a physical confrontation, but that is not the frame of mind you're going to be thinking in at all. With adrenaline going through your system, your reaction time is not only going to spike, but your mind is going to be moving a lot quicker than if you're analyzing a math problem. Your mind isn't going to waste time in pouring over memories of equations, it's going to jump to the first thing it finds useful. This is also not going to be how Twilight is going to think in the middle of a battle, considering she's been in several high-risk, stressful confrontations that require some very quick thought and come out on top.
Trying to apply the arbitrary limitation of "she's too slow to be effective in a fight" is just that: an arbitrary limitation. Twilight would not, and has not in her past battles taken that long to react. It's more of an excuse to try and cover up the oddity that is Starlight somehow being able to defeat Twilight, and I really just can't buy it.
4014545
This is just another ad hoc excuse, though. When exactly did Starlight outright try to kill anyone? When did Twilight even express the notion that she was trying to hold back? They were in the air trading blows and Starlight was trying to suck her into another timeline. This explanation really doesn't make sense either, since if Starlight really wanted to win and was actually willing to kill, why didn't she just kill Rainbow Dash?
It still doesn't adequately explain Twilight's loss to an obviously inferior foe, and this is kinda moving the goalposts again, since up to this point you've been trying to express Starlight as a superior magical duelist anyway.
4014562
The reason I keep 'moving the goalposts' as you say, or presenting all these alternate explanations, is because I'm not trying to argue any one possible explanation for why Twilight wasn't able to keep up with Starlight. What I'm attempting to argue is that such an explanation might actually exist, by presenting multiple possibilities to explain it, without actually trying to nail down any one as "this is the explanation". The only reason I raised these points in the first place is because you listed it as one of the parts of Starlight that it's too late to fix, when I don't feel it is.
4014596
I don't think "too late to fix" is the right phrase for what I presented it as. I think this problem is just unfixable from the word go. The fact that Starlight can win in a head-on battle is just ridiculous to me. To fix this would be to cut it out altogether, which wouldn't really be fixing it as much as it would be just replacing with a much better avenue to Starlight's plans.
Also, I'm not trying to argue that you can't make up explanations for it. I already touched on this with a point in the blog:
It isn't about how many different ways you can try to explain it away, it's the fact that even if you find a thousand different explanations, none of them are really going to override the fact that Starlight being more powerful than Twilight just seems ridiculous given her means. I could make the argument that Starlight is secretly an alien with greater magical ability than anything in all of Equestria that just wanted to enact a communistic regime on a small village, but even if it does loosely explain some plot holes within the show, it still doesn't really make the disparity in their power realistically believable. That's kinda the difference between an explanation made up just to fill in the gaps for the sake of filling in the gaps, and one that actually presents an organic continuation of events realistically. So with all that in mind, Starlight's ability can't really be fixed with duct tape explanations so much as it should just be replaced with something more believable.
4014603
Which is why I was trying to present explanations for how Starlight could win without being at the same power or skill level as Twilight, while still meeting what was actually presented.
4014606
The outcome is never going to change, regardless of the explanation given, and that's what the real problem is here. The fact that Twilight had to admit that she couldn't beat her in any other way besides convincing her to stop just makes this entire premise unbelievable to me.
In the end, I'd much rather see the writing quality improve rather than try and explain away oddities and inconsistencies in the show. Not to say it has to be airtight and leave us with no room for speculation, but it shouldn't need an explanation in matters like this. The show isn't going to get any better if it's allowed an avenue for laziness like this, and making Starlight able to overcome Twilight to the point of her having to be convinced to stop is just a contrivance to move the plot along. Things like this are what drag the enjoyability of the show down.
Besides being a better person in the future, and maybe going back to the village to make amends* or something, there isn't much she can make up for in the world at large. Most of her stuff happened in some time loop that only Twilight and Spike really know/remember. So really there is no aired out laundry she is making up for to others, and since no one knows as of now that means she only has something to lose if other people found out. She can try to be a better person/make up for her transgressions but she also has a motivation to be worried about what other people think. Plus she was trying to reconnect with someone she lost in that specific mention, and if airing out her exploits would prevent that then of course she'd be worried about it. And in Starburst's case especially since he moved away, it's not like he was around to be oppressed like the village, so she couldn't really make up anything to him specifically....unless she was a dunce enough not to even attempt to write a letter and needs to apologize for not keeping in contact.
*after typing this, I think I remember her being back at the village in the Starlight is totally a good guy montage in the finale. So it seems to sort of smear over her having to make anything up or have an episode dedicated to her making amends with them.
I know we the audience saw all the nasty events of the finale, but the universe itself isn't aware of those events since they "never really happened" as far as the timeline is concerned. And there are no ponies who were harmed by it in actuality that she can make up for. And sending "Hey sorry, I kind of ruined the timeline and made you guys changeling food and Sombra zombie soldiers for a bit but you are totally okay now" cards would earn her more crazy points than anything. So really her repentant arc would be more to herself and Twilight than anything. Versus Sunset who had a whole student body remember her mistakes and as a foil for her to prove she's changed against.
I totally agree with what you said for the most part, though I just felt that one part I quoted provoked me into begging the question of how she could make things up for the crime that no one remembers and the crime that was montage'd into being a happy ending. As well as why it would seem that worrying about what others think of her isn't a valid concern for her as well as the making up for what she did part. I won't claim to be a critic or an expert at plot analysis, but it just sort of got me thinking and I figured while bringing up my point and asking, I'd frame it with what I thought I knew of the situation so far.
4014612
And I'm in agreement with you there on those points as well.
4014613
I'll admit I really didn't go into much depth on Starlight's character here, as that would've required me to watch more of the episodes involving her again. A character analysis by itself would probably be a lot longer than the single paragraph that I gave it, and would've better explained my thoughts on this particular subject. I think what I was trying to get at though, was that Starlight just didn't seem sincere about being reformed with the way she acted, or it just didn't feel like it was being done with the right reasons. This could easily be changed if they gave her more screentime to express the extent of her remorse and willingness to start doing right.
I guess what we've been given just wasn't enough for me to believe in her; that, or I just really subconsciously don't want to like her.
I sorta see Sunset and Starlight as two halves of what should have been one character. Sunset had an excellent backstory, but her onscreen villainy was laughably pathetic. Starlight Glimmer had excellent onscreen villainy, but her backstory wasn't strong enough to support that level of villainy.
I love the character that Sunset currently is, but I've always held a torch for the awesome villain that she could have been. I personally like Starlight because she gave us a taste of what that sort of villain might have been like. If the two of them had been a single character with Sunset's backstory and Starlight's villainy and used to their fullest potential, they would have been the best villain in the show.
Wait Starlight still exists? I keep forgetting about her since she's basically a waste of space as a character so there's that, two her whole 'backstory' seemed like 'Oh my friend got a cutie mark, so I up and ignored him for the rest of my life to ruin everyone else lives' which makes no damn sense, she's stupid strong for literally no reason, she's just a bitch anyways and gives no shits about actually learning friendship, doesn't like Christmas for gods sake and is all around boring and unlikable.
4014627 Fair enough. Yeah I had a {Sweetie Bell "COME ON" image here} moment when the finale just...wrapped up. And they sort of just throw her in post-reform. And in the Christmas episode they lampshade some of it and it's sort of just...well it was lampshaded. So I can definitely see the need for more active demonstration of remorse and reformation on her part. 100%
I just sort of laser focused my attention onto the part with Sunburst for reasons unbeknownst to myself and felt like it perhaps by itself wasn't enough to make the comment of how serious or not she was about everything and that perhaps it wasn't the best example of it. And then that led to my avalanche of a post before this
(it looks a lot bigger now than it did when I typed it)
As for my "stance" on her at this point is neutral. I myself just sort of take the show as it goes. I do agree though that we need more episodes of her, for the sake of characterization. Though I do worry more episodes means they could be equally able to either add more nonsense to her character somehow.
4014232
4014606
Starlight's past is a bit of a black hole, but there have been plenty of times when Twilight has been in difficult situations where advanced combat magic could help, and she has failed to do anything creative (unless she has a ton of time to plan things in advance, like her duel with Trixie). She shoots lasers, she has the basic shield, and if really pressed she remembers she can teleport, but we have seen that Twilight Sparkle is terrible at fighting on many different occasions. Maybe Celestia never wanted her to learn combat magic, maybe she just has really bad combat instincts. She's a magical scientist, not a magical engineer.
redemption = accepting friendship (Sunset) quickly became redemption = accepted by others in your arguments. I've generally said all the things you've listed and have called Starlight "Sunset 2.0" more than once. However, following your third point, I noticed something that actually made me genuinely interested in Starlight for the first time:
Sunset accepts friendship but is not received well by others.
Starlight is accepted by others but is not receptive of friendship.
(sorry, you said "ad hoc" and it jumpstarted my critical reasoning training. you did round out both parameters of redemption with each character though, so good on ya.) It's very A --> B & B --> A, which are not the same.
I'm on the Starlight is OP crew, but Tatsurou did raise some questions - more about Twilight than Starlight: maybe Twilight just doesn't read combat texts. She tends to just ignore things she deems unimportant or silly, combat might not have been practical or interesting next to a recent article about Starswirl's legendary accomplishments.
the supposition that Twilight used the same spell to fight as Starlight may account for why Starlight could power through so much better - if it's Starlight's go-to then she's more practised and it probably maximized her ability, compared to Twilight who would have to pointedly direct her different style/energy into the same spell. it's like Naruto goes through the whole series using 2 jutsus.
but seriously, Starlight levitated herself the entire time and yet Twilight's the one that's winded? I call BS. Twilight should've been the martial artist in this scenario. they met up fuck-knows-how-many times but Twilight never formulated a new plan, which she should've been all over as a scientist-scholar. maybe even just staying in an alt timeline for a little longer to strategize.
It's funny, I think my favorite thing about her character is that she didn't like Hearth's Warming. Why would she? She had a cult, not friends. Big holidays are pretty depressing for lonely creatures. I thought her sudden introversion was the most believable thing about her.
I honestly think you have some strong points there, and though I may find her some what likeable. I do get what everyone hates about her, and understand that she has far more issues that need to be fixed before she will ever get better. Now it would be great to see her come back in a few episodes while working with the other main six, that way we can see her grow into a better pony.
And I do agree with the fact that she's holding back on some information about what drove her to what she did. Being abandoned by her friend as such an age was a start, but it's not the over all. That first issue is more like a building block that became like a foundation, which soon led to her being a sociopath.
I do hope they start to fix her as a character, and that she starts to grow a little more as the show progresses.
Big fan of Starlight and i have not seen EQG so as far as i understand it Starlight is the pony version of Sunset.
It's funny how most people will agree with the things I say about Starlight if I'm not the one who actually says them.
But yes, I agree. On almost every count. Starlight is an overpowered Mary Sue with a weak backstory and no personality. Unfortunately, I don't believe she's salvageable. She had three episodes to get herself together, and "No Second Prances" was the third strike. So as far as I'm concerned, she's out. Worse was when the entirety of "A Hearth's Warming Tail" seemed to be about everyone stopping everything they were doing to convince the one black sheep--Starlight--that Hearth's Warming Eve is so great (even though "Scare Master" proved you have a choice in the matter regarding holidays).
Every episode she's in, the writing tanks. "The Crystalling" was weak, all because of her B plot. "No Second Prances" was an absolute train wreck, all because every character Starlight interacted with was horribly written and entirely out of character. And even without having seen "A Hearth's Warming Tail", the fact that Twilight took the time to convince Starlight that this holiday is great and didn't give her the option to back out (like she gave to Fluttershy on Nightmare Night) is what puts me off seeing it at all.
So yes, she's an awful character. But no, I think she's past saving.
Those are just my thoughts.
You forgot to mention how much better her old mane was,