Worldbuilding II: Educational systems · 4:38am Jul 24th, 2014
Worldbuilding II: Education
Important note: I am sure I will learn some things from my readers as a result of this blog post. I fully intend to revisit this subject after hearing what you have to say, so spare me no mercy in the comments.
Let's examine the Equestrian Education system.
In canon, we don't really know a lot. What we've seen in canon is that Ponyville has a one-room school house now, and when Rarity was a filly, they had some sort of school (we never saw it, but we presume it was there).
We also know that at the same time, there was "Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns," which accepted young fillies (and probably colts, but that's not certain).
We presume that all the foals in Ponyville attend the public school, yet there are any number of background ponies we've never seen there (such as Rumble, or Nursery Rhyme).
Because of various continuity errors, I'm not including the high school we saw in the IDW comics as part of this discussion, however a high school is plausible in the era that My Little Pony seems to occupy.
Historically, some people have always been educated. Universities in the old world date back hundreds of years; in the US Harvard was founded in 1636, a year after the Boston Latin School (the first public school in the Americas). And they weren't alone; schools of all types were founded in the fledgling colonies.
But those weren't for everyone.
Most of us in the US are familiar with the one-room schoolhouse educational model; those started becoming popular around 1840, and as a result the number of children attending school began rising. By 1840, 55% of school-age children were attending school, and the US had one of the highest literary rates in the world. Still, it would be another 40 years before the majority of rural areas had access to public schools. It's also worth mentioning here that in the one-room schoolhouse model, the older students were expected to teach the younger students—it wasn't just one teacher in those classrooms.
The first public high school opened in Boston in 1821.
By 1918, every child in every state was required to attend elementary school. Also in 1918, half of the nation's children were still attending one-room schools.
What we see in the show is very similar to the United States' educational system of the nineteenth century. While my loyalest readers no doubt know which decade I like to set the Equestrians in, the truth is it really doesn't matter. Y'all have a hundred-year long window, at least when it comes to the educational system.
The most important thing to take away from this, though, is the compulsory part. It wasn't until 1918 that every state required elementary school education [and presuming that most of my readers have progressed past fifth grade, think back to how much you knew when you were the ripe old age of 10 . . . and what you know now]. In pre-Civil War times, only half of school-aged children attended school. Without doing a little research, that means that there's only a 50% chance that my great-great grandfather attended school.
As it happens, I can tell you with certainty how my immediate family was educated. My maternal grandfather graduated from the University of Michigan; I don't believe my maternal grandmother went to college. My paternal grandfather did not graduate John Hopkins, and I don't believe my paternal grandmother went to college. Both my mother and father graduated from the University of Michigan and pursued further degrees. I graduated Kalamazoo College with a BA (in theatre, with a minor in English); my brother graduated the University of Michigan with a Master's Degree.
So where does this leave us with the ponies?
I think that they are using a similar educational model to the 1800s US. For some, universities are available. Generally, they're reserved for the best and brightest unicorns, but there are also opportunities for pegasi and earth ponies in major cities. Those who live in smaller cities are just out of luck when it comes to secondary education, unless their parents can afford to ship them off to a major city.
One of the reasons I'd hesitated to post a blog on this subject to date is that it would contain major spoilers for parts of A Gift from Celestia. However, now that I've published chapters past the spoiler-point (so to speak), I'm good to go.
I don't think that general education—by which I mean an elementary-school level education—has been mandatory for the lifetime of the Mane 6.
Now, it's undeniable that Twilight and Rarity attended school.
Fluttershy and Rainbow are a bit trickier. They both attended 'flight camp,' but what that entails is unknown. When I was a kid, I attended 'Vacation Bible School,' which was hardly a substitute for 'actual school.' It was still pretty cool, since it gave me the opportunity to spend a week at a camp away from home (only during the day), and I got to see the miracle of the altar soaked in water re-enacted with lighter fluid, which almost started a forest fire. Plus, even now I can recite the books of the New Testament in order, so there's that. Point is, we don't know what kind of education RD and FS were getting.
Applejack . . . went to Manehattan. If I had to guess, I'd say that she might have been expected to attend a fancy school while she was there (and this makes her ability to out-class Rarity more believable)*
(I love this art so much. I'm not normally a fan of humanized ponies, but this is perfection. Full disclosure: this is the ONLY image on DeviantArt I've ever critiqued, and I pretty much had a fangasm. Among all the other details, note how the bodice doesn't quite fit right, or how AJ isn't wearing shoes. . . .)
Of course, we don't know how long she was there for.
*Optional headcanon: after her parents died, she went to live with her relatives for a while. Maybe a year or two. Granny was too busy with stuff at the farm to deal with a pre-pubescent AJ, and foisted her off on relatives until she reached the age of majority. Big Mac took over responsibilities at the farm, and Granny (and maybe Pappy) took care of Applebloom, since she was too young to send away [this is similar to what happened to my paternal grandfather].
Pinkie Pie had no formal education. There, I said it.
Does that look like a family that's going to send their fillies to school?
What that leaves us with, I think, is a town which has a high percentage of adults who can't read. How else can we explain the fact that most shops in town have a picture of what they offer, rather than words?
What about the "Welcome, Princess Celestia" banner? Would literate ponies be willing to put up a banner welcoming their god (practially) that had her name misspelled if they were fully literate?
(our friendly drunk pony can't spell, apparently)
Even Twilight makes lists with pictures rather than words sometimes. Of course, we assume that since she's Ponyville's librarian she knows how to read (and canon evidence pretty much confirms that). Why would she sketch out a picture, when a word would serve?
(just ignore the demotivational text; I'll deal with that in another blog post [maybe])
Because it's assumed that not all ponies are literate, that's why.
I've explored this is some fics, and it's not a theme that will go away. You saw it in OPP, you saw it in aGfC, and you'll keep seeing it in my fics. Potentially up to half of Ponyville adults are illiterate.
There, I said it.
For the purposes of my stories, Big Mac is illiterate, as are Allie Way and Ambrosia. Sea Swirl might be—I haven't decided for sure. Granny Smith probably is, along with Mr. Wattles. All the Mane 6 are literate, but that's more good fortune than a result of the Equestrian educational system.
There's a reason that there wasn't a librarian before Twilight. The mayor would open the library occasionally, but it was hardly a regularly-scheduled thing.
We all take reading for granted, of course. No one reading this blog is illiterate. But in a world where cutie marks = destiny, I ask you, why is education as we know it needed? In the past, generations of humans built the Roman viaducts knowing that if they used a different method, the water wouldn’t get where it was needed. Cathedrals or pyramids not built according to plan fell down; the designer hardly had a degree in structural engineering.
Apprenticeship, for many, was the path to a successful career. And what's more natural in a world of cutie marks? Amethyst Star (aka Sparkler) has a gem cutie mark. It's reasonable to assume that she had an interest in gems, and likely that she apprenticed to a gem-cutter. Golden Harvest has carrots; she probably learned the ins and outs of carrot husbandry from her parents. In a world which likely doesn't rely on cookbooks, Cup Cake might have followed in the hoofsteps of her mother or father. It's generally accepted fanon that all unicorns can cast light spells and levitate objects (both quite useful), and presumably cast a spell related to their cutie marks . . . but what makes Twilight unique is her ability to cast other spells, including a copy of Rarity's gem-finding spell. While there are certainly thinkers when it comes to weather management, a lot of it is undoubtedly hooves-on experience.
And what about Dr. Stable? Did he attend a medical school, do a residency, and then become a doctor? Or was it another example of on-the-job training? The nurses? Dr. Goodall? Is there a logical reason for some of the schizo-tech we see, or is it nothing more than sloppy writing?
I think that a lot of what we see on the show is a transition from the medieval model to a more modern view of education. What do you think?
It seems like quite a stretch to conclude that so many ponies are not literate. Maybe a few, but not a lot. Especially since the ponies in the show actually do read on several occasions:
-
Rainbow Dash passing out flyers calling all pegasi to help with the tornado (and the pegasi do actually read the flyer),
"Gabby Gums" writes a gossip column that becomes wildly popular in Ponyville, so much so that the newspaper stands are running out of copies,
Rainbow Dash gets laughed at for not wanting to read the Daring Do book,
-
-
And those are just some examples from season 2 off the top of my head. It seems like, even if formal education is not particularly common, at least most ponies are self-taught enough to know how to read.
Also, about Pinkie's family and schooling: Maud is going to get her doctorate (well, her rocktorate), i.e., a PhD. Implying that she has already gone through at least a few years of graduate-level schooling (to get a Master's degree), undergraduate (Bachelor's), and primary school before that. So she must have started her education at a reasonably young age.
Well, Maud Pie is going to college to get her rocktorate in - yep, you guessed it - rocks.
Well in the comic books, that high school is in Canterlot. A major city, the nation's capital, which has been established for nearly 1000 years. They probably have a good educational system, similar to what you might find in any major US city today. Including high schools and universities. And even specialty / magnet schools, like Celestia's School for gifted unicorns.
Ponyville is a backwoods rural town. It's probably not even 100 years old (depending on your math and headcanon). And unless it's a building code to maintain the town's rustic aesthetic, most buildings have thatched roofs. They have a one room school house. It's possible they also have some other 'schools' consisting of single small classes held in a random place. Perhaps town hall. It's also possible that one class at the schoolhouse is not a full day, and another class of older or younger foals comes in afterwards.
I suppose it IS possible that in Ponyville, half the adults might be illiterate. I don't like it, but it's possible. I always use the backwater argument for other things. Like how they were all scared to death of a zebra. And Twilight (presumably the only out-of-town-er) knew what a zebra was.
Anyway, I think the whole pictures instead of words thing is kind of a bad piece of canon to expand on. You know damn well they only do that for illiterately-young viewers and so they don't have to translate anything visual for foreign markets. To my knowledge, the Welcome Princess Celest banner was the ONLY actually legible written words in any episode ever.
Oh, also, I'm pretty sure Pinkie was 'educated' to some degree. Amish kids learn to read, don't they? Though I suppose that has a lot to do with religion.
file.netmarble.co.id/img/Forum/34/2013/03/19/20130319223236.jpg
2311255 He brings about a good point. Chances are, most ponies can read... however, though taught to read, there is, as you said, limited amount of need for it compared to places of higher society and education. But, the bit with there being a newspaper proves that they likely are all capable of reading.... whether or not they read enough to know how to spell more complex words, however, is another matter entirely, eh? Now, if THAT were to be said about Ponyville in terms of reading levels, THAT I could see as more believable than the thought of them all being illiterate. There's been plenty of proof that ponies, in general, can read. But, also as you pointed out, there's proof that it likely isn't studied to the extreme levels that education systems of our time has done, eh?
2311255 <- This.
2311282 I see what you did there!
2311255
Let me begin by stating that this is not a disagreement; rather, it's friendly debate.
Confirmed that one of the Flitter/Cloud Chaser can read; Ditzy/Derpy maybe (issues focusing or illiteracy? [my headcanon is that she can, for what it's worth]; others we don't know--and we never got a clear shot at that flier--it could have been more pictures than text).
Again, we don't know how many ponies read it, and how many ponies had it read to them. That having been said, it's certainly a harsh indictment of the local paper that an elementary school rag was mose interesting (and I'm sure you know that I've used that as a plot point)
Yes, but it's coming from Twilight, who's often been portrayed as a socially-awkward mare. In my own life, I've been guilty of assuming that people know some fact that I know, or think the way I do--who's to say Twilight isn't operating with a similar bias?
I'm probably oversimplifying in the blog (which is why I want comments!); maybe partial literacy (let's say 5th grade) is more common; 'full' literacy is less likely?
From personal experience: the state of Michigan requires mechanics to hold a certification. The first time I took the brakes test, I failed, because I didn't know the proper terms for brake parts. I knew how to do brakes, but I didn't know what a duo-servo brake system was, nor which was the primary shoe and which was the secondary. We don't know exactly what a 'rocktorate' is, or how it's earned. Plus, she could be an exception, rather that the rule when it comes to rock farming . . . or Pinkie's parents could have been very progressive when it came to home schooling, and insisted that their foals all knew how to read and write and do math. IRL while I'm generally against home-schooling, there are certainly some parents who are better instructors than bottom-of-the-barrel public school teachers; on the other hand, a professional is usually better than an amateur.
Once again, in some fields, a talented practitioner might have an advantage against a well-educated theoretician. Certainly, IRL I've experience both sides of the equation.
2311297
According to my copy of The Forgotten Arts and Crafts, a properly thatched roof has a 100 year life--better than asphalt shingles. Now, in terms of fire resistance, I'm not sure which does better. But the roofing technology isn't a deal-breaker when it comes to technology, IMHO.
The show does leave a lot open to debate in that regard, and it doesn't help that they're kind of lacking when it comes to character models.
I'll cover this in my racism/speciesism blog (sure to garner downvotes!)
Just like Lily using TK, I think we writers can choose to use it, or ignore it. Yes, of course I know why they animated it the way they did.
I don't mean to suggest that homeschooled kids don't learn fundamental bits of education, just that there isn't as formal a degree of what's learned and what's not. In my own life, I'd have learned to read whether or not I ever attended school; I figured out that books contained information I wanted before I went to kindergarten (first major novel I completed was LoTR at age 7 [not that I understood all of it]).
Hey, it's not a lie.
2311300
No, it doesn't. First newspaper in the US? 1690. Mandatory primary education: 1918.
When I was in high school, one of my fellow students read and wrote at a fifth-grade level (at best). As my high school career pre-dated some of the 'modern' standards when it comes to education, he kept getting passed . . . because everyone knew that he already managed a hog farm with 6,000 head of hogs. So what if he wasn't very good at English (or if all his essays involved hogs?)
2311255
As a rebuttal:
To Gabby Gums:
) is penned by school-foals, who are apparently of such advanced literacy that all the Adults in town are enraptured.
The gossip-rag that gets the town all a-flutter (no offense, dear
This would seem to say that, either the Cutie Mark Crusaders are incredibly mature in their first forays into journalism, and therefore should have gotten their cutie marks, or that their audience is on their reading level.
Either that, or there are some gossips who are willing to parse the poor writing, and spread it through word-of-mouth through their illiterate friends.
To Daring Do
Pulp Adventure Novels (e.g. the Daring Do series) became extremely popular in the latter-half of the 1800s.
Dash is encouraged to read by her book-obsessed friend, and though shown to have the capacity for it, still maintains a social stigma against it.
Historically, the general attitude of the illiterate majority in cultures have been either: "Books aren't important, 'cause only Eggheads care about 'em, but they're awfully convenient for Toilet Paper", or "Reading is a mystical art where only the learned are privvy to the invormation therein, and should be treated with awe and mistrust".
The latter is how Grammer (a book on how to read, and later the rules of language) and Grimoire (a book on how to Magic) were once the same word
The former is Rainbow Dash's attitude.
As for the Pegasus Pamphlet thing.... You've got a point, and I have no counter-argument. These imply that Pterippi are expected to be literate.
I will point out that the nailing of a Town Notice to a single post in the center of town wouldn't do well for folks whose towns change geography every time there's a mild breeze, so I'd say that strapping a bag to somepony's back to scatter a rain of small Pamphlets would come naturally to the Pegasus race.
Moreover, being the most mobile of the Pony races, they'd be the ones most often asked to take a letter to the next town.
These two facts combine to imply that the Equestrian Mail System was largely a Pegasus affair for a long time.
On a related note, Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, being mostly about Magic, goes back to that Grammar/Grimoire split. When you have a Mage Class, they're also likely to be your scholars, and also likely to be very exact in their detail-orientation.
Few things are as motivational to nit-pickiness when summoning your morning coffee could result in the detonation of a sharpened piece of bone connected to your brain if you misremembered a single typo...
All in all, I'd say that the timeline is a bit more specific, and also racially reliant.
It seems that the Mane 6 are the first generation to have experienced mandatory literacy education, with the CMC being the next.
Their generation CAN read, and it is socially pervasive, but not universally so.
The Ponyville Schoolhouse is teaching the use of a Printing Press, while the Mayor has a Scroll on her butt.
Transitional :)
Meanwhile, the
race has literacy in its general populace, though it's a working literacy rather than a scholastic one, which is the purview of the elite of the 
s.
s didn't need literacy as much as the other two, and Ponyville is an 
town, so its no wonder that they're a bit late to the party.
2311361 Well, I guess it's likewise up to use writers to decide which stupid things the animators do to play off of. I personally wouldn't put any stock into the pictures for words thing. But that's just me.
As for specism and zebras, just to clarify, I implied that Ponyville-ians are, for lack of a better term, ignorant to certain things, especially culturally. Might have thought griffons would be one of those things, but maybe they're more common to see in pony media or something. Anyway, doesn't really mean they're all specist. Just that unknown things are scary sometimes.
2311377
It could also be that they are willing to engage in yellow journalism when the Ponyville Express won't. Small-town gossip being what it is, regardless of literacy, if there's a juicy article in a local paper, everypony will know about it, even if they didn't read the source material.
\
Like that.
And for my readers in general, I'll point out that Dickens wasn't read by everybody, just like not everyone who has cable TV watched Lost. A TV series doesn't succeed or fail when it fails to garner 100% of viewer interest; likewise appealing to 50% of all ponies--or even 25% of all ponies--it still successful marketing. Especially in a world when horn polish or preening kits would by definition never reach more than 33% of the market (rough estimate).
Sadly, something I've seen among Facebook friends (not reading, of course, but 'further education').
I'd personally argue that the ponies fall into the second category. Books are good, probably, but can a book make a proper wheel for a wagon?
And let's not forget how alchemy and chemistry were once essentially the same disciplines.
I'll assume that the literate ponies are expected to pass it on by word-of-mouth.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that they can always read the addresses. If Sparkler says to Ditzy "Take this to so-and-so in Trottingham," as long as Ditzy can remember the name of the addressee, she's good to go.
Yes; in such a world education is split on different lines than it is now IRL.
Personally, I don't think that the Mane 6 experienced mandatory education; they just happened to be in that 50%.
When I was in elementary school, we had an Apple IIc (only one)--which was a big deal, since where I went to school, most people didn't have home computers, nor would they be expected to get them any time soon. Fast forward a few decades. . . .
2311405
As are most of us, sadly.
Given that ponies frequently use 'mule' as an insult (fellow equine, hello?), it's no wonder that a different species might not be treated with respect.
And given the creatures in the Everfree, that's not an unreasonable POV.
2311413
You're... rebutting my rebuttal to YBJ's rebuttal to your piece.
2311427
I don't view it as a 'rebuttal' so much as an alternate view (or playing the Devil's Advocate).
I'm not one of the foaming-at-the-mouth MLP canon fanatics who believes it's my way or the highway; while I do (of necessity) espouse a particular view in any particular story, I'm not beholden to that. The world in Lyra and Bon Bon Go to Wales is not necessarily the same world as the one in Here I Am, for example. I'm willing to explore.
But I can't do that without you guys. I want alternate viewpoints, and I want us all to question what we know, not preach the same gospel to each other again and again. So naturally my first reaction to any comment is 'but what if?'
Give me your opinion. Quote canon! I'll just sit here like a sponge and suck it all up. The whole impetus behind these blog posts is a series of PM exchanges between me and another member--and I want to open it up to the masses, dammit.
I can only get better as a writer from legions of readers hitting me with 2x4s and saying "you're an idiot." And to the rest of the writers--maybe you'll learn from watching my suffering. I hope so. Heaven only knows that DJ's learned a thing or two from watching me hit myself with a hammer (protip: don't hit yourself with a hammer).
"(our friendly drunk pony can't spell, apparently)"
As usual; it's all Carrot Top's fault.
And that's about all I have to say. Keep up the great work.
The fact that you do so much research makes all the difference.
--Sollace
2311427
We need to go deeper...
(j/k)
2311329
Sure, I enjoy some friendly discussion about the finer points of headcanon.
My point about Rainbow being laughed at for not wanting to read Daring Do, is that it's not just Twilight laughing at her. All her friends are, because they just assume that reading is a common leisure activity.
Though I suppose it's true that pulp fiction novels probably don't require a high school level of reading comprehension.
For Maud's "rocktorate", I was just assuming that the writers were making another pun and it's actually a PhD, not a technical certification. In fact, she's actually going off on a trip to do "rock research". The youngest person I've met to get a PhD is one of my coworkers who was in her late 20s when she got her degree.
And don't dismiss the value of good home schooling. I was home schooled from 2nd grade up through high school, and me and the dozens of other home schooled kids in my area followed a standardized curriculum. (Of course, it helps that both of my parents have graduate degrees in biochemistry, my mom is a really good teacher, and my dad is a professor at a medical school. So yeah, I was really lucky.)
I assume that most Equestrians (though not all) attend an elementary school and get an indifferent education to the point of giving them basic literacy and numeracy, generally from around ages 6 to around 12-14 or so. From that point on, they have their marks and are working full-time to support themselves. The gifted or fortunate go to a secondary school (high school etc.) from around age 12-14 to 18. Those really serious about advanced education and able to afford it attend college from around 18-22, and some training in specialized and advanced fields attend universities from 22+ while working in their field as graduate students.
Of the Mane Six, Twilight had completed the equivalent of a college education by age 17, when the show begin. She was simply that smart.
Rarity attended a secondary school specializing in business administration and fashion design until age 17 or so, when she graduated and set up her business. Rarity was that driven.
Applejack and Big Mac both completed elementary school. They're rural, but they're also both intelligent and needed an education to run Sweet Apple Acres (it's a complex enterprise).
Pinkie Pie attended some elementary school but did not complete her schooling. She's in part an auto-didact, and in part informed by the vast artificial intelligence of Paradise to which she is linked.
Both Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy attended, but neither graduated, Flight School (a secondary-school equivalent). Rainbow Dash went off to adventure with Gilda in her mid-teens. Fluttershy became a weird hermit around the same time. She has, however, studied on her own and has by now the equivalent of a college education in Zoology.
Of the Pie family, Igneous Rock has had some elementary schooling. Cloudy Quartz Pie completed elementary school and attained on her own the equivalent of a secondary school education. Claire Pie has been tutored by her grandmother Goldie Pie and by the Paradise entity. Marble and Limestone have had at least some elementary schooling.
The two most formally-educated Pies are Goldie ("Granny") Pie who has a MS in Biology from Miskatrottic (and has studied a lot on her own since then) and Maud Pie, who has an MS in Geology from Canterlot University, and is going for her Doctorate in the field. Incidentally, the main reason why the Pies aren't rich is because they've sacrificed to send Maud to university. They are very proud of Maud, and she appreciates what they've done for her very much.
I mostly agree with your points on the larger issue, though. As a mid Industrial Age society, Equestria cannot provide as extensive a formal education to its people as does our Information Age society -- it just isn't wealthy enough. Literacy rates are lower, though semi-literacy is at 90% or so -- most Equestrians know the alphabet, can write their own names and read and write a large number of simple words -- but many of them can't really read whole books, save for the simplest primers. Secondary school is for the smartest quarter or so of the population, and college and university for actual scholars or the well-to-do. Much education is informal tutoring or apprenticeship.
2311297
Though note that Ponyville isn't deep-rural. It's an exurb of Canterlot. My Dunnich (where the Pies came from) is deep-rural. It's an exurb of Ponyville.
I really disagree about Big Macintosh. AJ has pointed out her fancy mathematics several times. Big Mac seems to me like a pony that was really working towards going someplace with his life, but the farm NEEDED him when his parents died and he quit his education at whatever level he was at just after this event, whether due to that loyalty, or a lack of funds for him to continue -- most likely both.
As for the general system of education, it seems that in mid-sized towns like ponyville, all kids attend the local one-room schoolhouse type of thing. Note private tutoring/private schools that take earth ponies near Ponyville must be rare because Filthy Rich for whatever reason sends her kid to Cheerilee and if some higher alternative existed in grade school for Diamond Tiara, you can bet she would be there.
When you get your cutie mark, you can either continue for a few more years (until you are old enough to start your own business), go to the farm/apprentice with some pony in your mark, or try to apply to some school in a city that corresponds to you mark. Those schools do exist in places like Manehattan and Canterlot, and if you show extreme talent earlier you can go join those few who are the best and learn there. The top 5% of unicorns in Canterlot and Manehattan already go to such schools and it is found out early in their schooling, or bought into by rich parents for some who would otherwise have just missed the cut.
Out in more rural areas, schooling is more sparse. If there is not a school within an acceptable distance, you end up learning from whatever books there are around, and the teachings of your elders. Pinkie Pie might not have had any formal schooling but was very interested in books, and what Granny Pie could show here thus accounting for her sporadic learning in various oddball topics while often not having some more simple things that a foal would be taught in school.
Note that Rainbow Dash knows how to read, this despite her not enjoying reading until she is exposed to Daring Do. This shows that pegasi (or at least her), was forced to learn to read in a school environment she likely hated judging from her loathing of books, and the way she learns in season 4. Flight School looks like something all Cloudsdale pegasi go through to make sure they can fly well and to recognize those pegasi who are destined to compete and/or have other jobs that are very flying intensive. Perhaps pegasi born in earth pony areas might not have had the benefit of this when it was needed resulting in weak flyers and sometimes ponies like Scootaloo who was not trained at the right time.
The simple explanation of the pictures on the shopkeeper's buildings is that the pictures are for artwork for the show (It is far easier for a viewer, especially of the target audience, to related to a picture than try to read a sign in the distance). If you want a more in-show version, it would be so they could be seen and recognized at a greater distance, and from overhead by pegasi, and so that griffons and minotaurs and any other societies who might not be able to read can notice their purpose. Plus it is also a throw back to even earlier days when a higher percentage of the population was illiterate. I see the ponies as closer to that age than we are but still beyond it. When Ponyville was founded, I would figure most ponies could not read.
2311405
Oh, and I have an alternate explanation for why Zecora had such a problem, while griffons and minotaurs do not. Zecora fell into the "uncanny valley." She not only acts in a generally suspicious manner and talks in rhyme with an accent when she does talk, but she is similar enough to ponies except for glaring minor differences that she just seems like a robot would that is too close to humanity to us. Hence she makes ponies uncomfortable.
It's all well and good to know your destiny but you still need certain skills to be able to execute it. Even with a cutie mark I think most crafts ponies would still find it useful to know how to read. I am not disagreeing with your headcannon, in fact I agree with most of it, just that line of reasoning.
2311374 Now, that I could understand. Like I said, I don't think they'd be illiterate... but that they don't have a high education in reading.
2311833
True--I contend that the Mane 6 are of the first generation where formal education in a rural town is expected, rather than being an option for some. Also, given that we know RD is the (or at least a) weather manager for the Ponyville region, it would be expected she's got more of an education than the average cloud worker.
Yeah, I would expect that they are targeted towards the broadest demographic possible.
Arguably, in an earlier educational model there might not be as significant difference as there is now. I also think that the Equestrian education system likely offers many degrees that we don't have here on earth, and probably doesn't offer some we'd take for granted.
The key word is good. And I don't mean to pick on it; after all, there are good and bad public schools, good and bad professors, and so on. I know well-educated parents who could probably cover pretty much anything a primary education would, and I also know parents who probably should't be allowed to communicate with their children at all.
Okay, I'm wading into this later than I'd intended, but here goes nothing:
Bearing relative timeframes in mind, and using solely the show as reference, my guess is that Equestria is floating somewhere in the 'free-and-openly-available-but-not-compulsory' stage of development, at which point it becomes not so much a question of 'why take advantage of the opportunity', but 'why not'.
- Since racism and discrimination can probably be safely be discounted as issues preventing enrolment (challenge that assertion at your peril, o reader), I think we can bung out the idea of colts and fillies being forced out of school for that reason.
-It must be free (or at least very low cost), if cash-strapped families like the Apples can afford to send their youngest. Monetary concerns also go in the bin.
-It cannot be compulsory, as we can safely assume that cutie marks, and the talent (I hesitate to go so far as to say 'destiny') and eventual field of employment they imply, predate schools and therefore establish a precedent for gainful employment by apprenticeship or similar, suggesting that routes are still open to ponies who cannot/will not participate in formal schooling.
-The argument that 'Celestia's not a b
tch, and probably personally oversaw the creation of an equitable system' may be filled in for one or more of the above if the rest are unsatisfactory.
That, then, leaves three likely options to prevent attendance: either the colt/filly in question is needed at home, distance from a suitable facility prevents easy access, or distrust on the part of the parents keeps the child out of school.
The first option, considered historically, is entirely plausible in the case of farming communities like Ponyville or Appaloosa, wherein all a family's hands are needed on deck (or, more accurately, in the fields) either at harvest season or year-round to help maintain the crops and generally keep the operation running. I believe we've seen Applebloom skive off school for this reason at least once, though I could be wrong. Less likely in urban centres like Canterlot, where 1) family livelihood is not as likely to be predicated on a labour-intensive multi-person industry like agriculture, and 2) hired help is more readily available.
The second case depends entirely on the level of educational infrastructure that exists in Equestria as-is. We only know of the schoolhouse in Ponyville; whether there are others in every borough, county, village cannot be inferred. Should schools be limited in their spread, however, it's highly likely that children from outlying farms or other communities (like Pinkie's?) would find travel times prohibitive, and pursue alternative courses instead.
As for the third? Well, superstition and ignorance never go out of style; presumably there's at least one outlier case somewhere in Equestria who believes school will 'poison their children's minds'.
So, what percentage of enrolled ponies does that leave us with? Probably somewhat higher than the Admiral's estimate of 50% in farming communities with schools, unless the area is especially low-income -- I'd settle for 2/3s of the total. That figure is probably significantly higher in higher-income and urban areas, anywhere between 75-95%, depending on regional factors, and, again, predicated on the logic that there is no reason not to take advantage of the opportunity presented.
All that probably accounts for a significant portion of Equestrian general education, but by no means all. Cheerilee's schoolhouse has, at various times, been used to teach a variety of subjects, including (some fairly complex!) maths, reading and writing, and history, but at no point has it dealt with the specifics of magic use or flying. If we again assume that the general education system is 'breed-blind', again indicated by the range of breeds of schoolchildren seen in the Ponyville schoolhouse, and endeavours not to cater to any group more than any other, then this makes a good deal of sense.
However, it also caters more to the 'earth' ponies and leaves the unicorns and pegasi at a distinct disadvantage. We have yet to see any formal training in magical arts or flying take place within Ponyville from any source but personal tutoring (e.g. of Sweetie Belle, in telekinesis, by Rarity and Twilight). Presumably, family members are responsible for the majority of training in these fields in regions where formal training is not readily available, again as the above would imply.
However, we know for a fact that two alternate schooling systems exist: one for aspiring unicorn mages in Canterlot, and one for Pegasi in Cloudsdale. My best guess, based on what we've seen of those respective societies, is that the Unicorn schools are more geared towards secondary or tertiary education (with primary being undertaken by tutors, dedicated parents, or some form of boarding school), as evinced by the test Twilight needed to take to prove herself worthy of acceptance into the Unicorn School for Gifted Mages, implying an expectation that some level of magical education had been received prior to application for entrance to the school. Likely a scholastic environment, research and lecture based, and probably very demanding, if it routinely produces students of Twilight's level of competence. Cost and spread of these schools is open to conjecture.
The other major secondary school system would be that of the Pegasi, and would either consist of or at least have to include the 'flight camp' we saw in S1E24. It is likely restricted to exclusively Pegasi sanctuaries, seeing as 1) it seemed to be contained solely within the bounds of Cloudsdale in the aforementioned episode, and 2) Scootaloo, a presumed Ponyville native whatever her other familial conditions, has never spoken about it. If what we observed of the flight camp was any indication, the curriculum would likely revolve around flight training and (potentially) weather maintenance. Based on Fluttershy's presence there, I would imagine that attendance is compulsory, given that it would take superhuman effort to convince Fluttershy to go to something so public if there was any way she could get out of it. Whether said schooling would cover the basics apparent in Ponyville's schools is, again, unknown -- though neither Dash (and S4 backs me up on this) nor Fluttershy seem particularly learned in fields outside their respective cutie mark domains.
Blanket statement: anything that isn't taught in school, a young pony either learns from her family, on her own, or from on-the-job training. I imagine 99.9% of cutie marks are earned this way, with edcuation simply opening a wider range of doors for the filly/colt in question. If we take the cutie mark as a symbol of an aptitude, one that a pony earns through its actions, rather than a fixed thing determined at birth (or earlier), there is definite incentive for attendance and performance in school -- as here, to open up a wider range of future possibilities of employment etc.
The one thing I take exception to in your argument, Admiral, is the idea that illiteracy is rampant in the rural areas. True, we see pictographs frequently replacing written words on-screen, but I'm not sure I agree that immediately discounts it from being lingually based.
I ask you, then, what of heiroglyphs? They were pictographs, but they maintained a deeper meaning than simply the image of the thing itself. A favoured example: we know that the sign for 'Quills and Sofas' is just that -- a quill and a sofa. However, how is it to be communicated to, say, a holidaymaker visiting Ponyville that this is a store where such things can be bought, rather than, say, a quill and sofa museum? Presumably either the placement, arrangement or something about the symbols themselves (style of drawing, perhaps?) has an effect on the interpretation of the message. Just as Dale used drawn, recognisable symbols to communicate ideas, so too could the ponies.
Isn't that all language is?
Another interesting point is -- and I'm thinking of a very specific flyer that Applebloom is holding at one point, and possibly the newspapers from the papparazzi episode, though the exact episode references escape me -- that we've seen the Equestrian alphabet written side-by-side with a similarly heiroglyphic system consisting of stick-figure ponies and horseshoe symbols, frequently alternating word by word. What better proof of multiple or mixed written language could there be? Maybe this is endemic only to Ponyville, or earth-pony communities, but it sill warrants consideration.
Also, for the consideration of all those who've read OPP etc., if the Equestrians have a language distinct from our own, how did the 'Greetings Princess Celest-' sign appear in English?
I thought the base literacy rate back in the 1800s was actually surprisingly high because pretty much everyone had to learn to read the bible. That wasn't so much a school thing as a church thing picked up through association. I don't remember where I heard that though.
Though I doubt Equestria has a similar religious focus.
Maybe.
2311841
Again, I think this is a new thing with this generation of ponies--at least when it comes to rural towns.
Hitting your other points with a quick response, I don't think that a formal Equestrian education would be the same as what we have here. Twilight, I feel, is a true polymath, but also a bit of an exception. While we have a required core curriculum even in college, a pony studying advanced magical theory might not learn any chemistry, physics, history, or any other topic which doesn't relate to her degree.
I also think that running Sweet Apple Acres does not require what we'd think of as a formal education. A practical education, yes; but I can tell you from my experience as a mechanic, reading about diagnosing cars is well and good; actually doing it is a whole 'nother skill set.
2311897
That's true, but you don't need to be literate to do math. I figure that Big Mac got--at best--a kindergarten education, learned math from one of his parents (somepony had to do the accounting at the farm)--and like you said, dropped out of school to take care of the farm after his parents passed on.
I should add that Bad Horse's Big Mac Reads Something Purple was influential in this headcanon.
That's pretty much my theory, too. I suspect that cutie marks correspond more-or-less with puberty, and that happens in humans beginning around 5th or 6th grade. Canon evidence suggests that the ponies age at about the same rate as humans (but that's a topic for another time
).
Yes, I do know why they do it in the show, and if it were just building advertisements, I wouldn't bring it up. But some very distinctive buildings do it too (the library), and Twilight often draws her checklists.
Of course, as a writer, we're free to chose my interpretation, yours, or some other.
2311907
That's actually a pretty good theory
2311917
But most of those skills in a hooves-on job would be learned by doing.
I had no formal schooling for my job as a mechanic until five years after I began, when I wanted to branch out into more diagnostics. Before that, I'd learned nearly everything by watching what the other guys did, or simply asking them. Given the rural nature of Ponyville, I think that would be the educational model for most trades.
2312066
If you were a white man, 80% in 1840; women were probably similar. If you weren't white, the rate dropped to about 20%.
Here's an interesting note for ya.
If Equestria Girls is to be believed, the Mane 6 are all High School age, meaning that they are at most 18 or 19 years old, yet none of them are still attending school (well, with the exception of Twilight, seeing as she's still technically Celestia's student). So none of them except Twilight have anything more than a high school (or equivalent) level of education.
...And Rarity has her own business as a teenager. Not sure what to make of that.
2312291
Well... Horses and ponies mature at about age 3, so...
2312369
*Points at journal* Not according to Admiral Biscuit.
2312291
While we can't say for certain that age translates directly from Equestria to Equestria Girls, it probably does. I personally have no problem with the Mane 6 being in their early to mid teens at the beginning of the show. Digibrony (I think) estimated their ages as around 15 in one of his videos.
One of the few fics I've seen this mentioned in was Anthropology, where Lyra is 16 IIRC.
2312369
IRL colts are sexually mature around one year old, I believe.
I feel i should mention that most apprentices to craftspeople would actually be taught enough of the three Rs to help them do at least basic bookkeeping and to understand written instructions, notes, etc.
I feel that Rainbow and Fluttershy should have some education- Cloudsdale is a pretty big place and would likely have some decent schools.
Lurks-no-more has some interesting head-canon on Equestrian Education :here
Also, perhaps most ponies can read, but since only Unicorns can easily write (telekinesis vs. mouth-grip), using expressive, simple drawings instead of signs help include every pony. It may be a holdover from more 'medieval' times, when literacy rates would've been even lower. You gotta admit, it's a lot more picturesque than the alphabet
2311876
One of the things which historically separated rural and urban was distance, and distance was relative. Oftentimes, towns were close enough you could ride a horse to one, and then back, in a single day; many of those smaller towns are gone now. Even though they could see Canterlot, I contend that until the train came, Ponyville was--by reasonable definition--rural.
Also, when I was a kid, I lived in what anyone would call a rural town (pop 2000, one traffic light, a joint school district with the next town over, etc.) . . . but when we went to the beach, we could see the major town 20 miles down lake from us, and it was a way different demographic there.
2312029
I'd personally put it at just after the compulsory part, but that it changed to compulsory within the last decade. That's just me of course; as I believe I mentioned in the blog post there are a lot of foals we never see in school.
I assume it is. Secondary school (which to them would include middle school and up) may not be, but primary school is, IMHO.
(I don't think they're as poor as they want you to think. I think they're just tight-
fistedhooved.Agreed in principle; however, I think that a minimum education regardless might be desirable (reading, writing, math, culture, xeno-culture [probably very important to the ponies] and so on can be used throughout a pony's life, whether or not it's related to her talent. I'm still debating on whether sex ed. is taught in Equestrian schools--if we assume that primary school graduation takes place right about when they get their cutie marks and hit puberty, it might fall to the schools to explain.
Some of the rural schools I attended set their schedules based in part on farm operations, and also allowed students to skip opening day of deer season.
Given their historical use, it's highly likely that there are; from the show we don't know. I believe that Babs mentioned she attended school, so there's that (but of course she's from the Big City).
One of the reasons I assume she had no formal (i.e., in a schoolhouse) education.
Which is incredibly depressing.
An author has some wiggle room, that's for sure. Even not assuming compulsory education, I'd say that now the majority of foals in Ponyville attend school; whether that was true of their parents is less certain, and totally up to the author.
While a 'general' education would by definition be breed-blind, they also don't seem to be covering an earth pony's 'growing things' innate talent, either.
Given the age at which their tribal talents manafest, it may be beyond the scope of primary education. I also think Sweetie Belle might be just a little bit, ah, slow when it comes to unlocking her horn's potential.
She's still diabeetus-inducingly cute, though.
Even though we didn't see it, I'd assume that weather work was likely one of the primary thrusts of flight camp. I also assume that just as Twilight had to demonstrate some ability in order to enroll in Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns, a pegasus has to show the ability to fly to qualify for flight camp.
Or it could be that the constant teasing by fellow pegasi is what made her the way she is now, or it could be that she had no other option (her parents escorted her there, picked her up afterwards). Possibly there were different flight camps for pegasi going into different fields, and Fluttershy picked that one because it was the least demanding. Also, she might have been even more frightened of the possibility of ground school, especially if pegasi often traded exaggerated tales of unicorns and earth ponies.
Agreed.
Yes; that's pretty much what I imagine, too.
And it's a good way to expand the pool of cutie marks. Somepony's got to innovate the locomotives, flying machines, and so forth. If all they know is farming and weather management, the nation will slowly crumble.
Some of it depends on how you define illiteracy. By one measure, 15% of the population of the United States is currently illiterate. (I'd have to dig out my research materials to give you what that definition is, but I believe it's reading comprehension at a high school level.)
Well here we get into a whole range of symbols, icons, and so forth, which is well beyond the scope of this blog. We have silhouette man meeting his demise in all sorts of horrible ways, particular shapes of some road signs, the fairly universal circle-with-a-slash that means NO, etc. For my purposes, I think the dividing line would be whether you could write a book using said symbols, or if they wouldn't make sense out of context (and I've read Breakfast of Champions by Vonnegut, so don't try to slip that one by as an example).
Given how customers act in my own personal experience, having actual words on you sign doesn't help. One would assume that if a travelling pony found herself in Ponyville and in need of a quill, she'd ask around and get directions, or go into the shop with a quill over the door and assume that if she couldn't buy one there, the pony inside would know where to get them.
Or even the type of building might be a clue.
I think they do, often.
Yes, but that's kind of splitting away from the general definition of literacy, IMHO.
I assume that they have at least two written languages: Unicorn, which takes advantage of horn-writing, and a shorter version for those poor ponies who have to mouthwrite. Most educated ponies can read and write in both (same language, different character set and rules). We also know from canon that there are multiple languages spoken on the planet, from the Breezies to the Zebras.
Because the joke wouldn't be funny if it wasn't written in plain English.
2312631
Back in ye olde times, bookkeeping was often sketchy (at best); in the case of the ponies, a mare with a bookkeeping cutie mark might find herself never wanting for employment. My boss hired an accountant to handle all the books, since he's too busy concentrating on running two shops to deal with all of the paperwork.
Likewise, instructions weren't always passed down through the years in written form. Any trick to help a pony remember how to do a task would be fine, whether it be pictures (like IKEA furniture), shanties and the like, or just simple repetition. Of course there would be advantages to being able to read, but there are other techniques which have been used throughout the ages--and still are. Remember the alphabet song?
I assume that they did.
I'll check it out.
Agreed, and that's another potential reason why literacy as we know it might not be as widespread in Equestria.
It is indeed.
2312246
I'm not saying that it can't be done, I am saying that they would be more effective if they had some formal education as well.
2312863
You'd be surprised. In Pre-Revolution America, it was quite usual for a Master to teach his apprentice the three Rs, or to pay for him to go to one of the little adult night schools that one could always find in the big towns and cities. You are right- literacy is not essential for good craftsmanship, but most masters understood the utility of it, and set their apprentices to learn it.
2312735
Oh yes, I agree. The key development in Ponyville was the train coming through town. On my timeline the town was founded 100 years ago, YOH 1400, and the first inter-city railroad anywhere (the B & A Baltimare & Avalon Rail Road) was started in 1416, reaching Mount Avalon (originally not Canterlot itself as the early locomotives couldn't climb the grade) in the 1420's. I haven't finalized it yet, but I would guess there was no rail service to Ponyville until the 1450's or so.
Before then, Ponyville communicated with the outside world primarily by riverboat. And it would have been much more rural back then -- think Sam Clemens' Hannibal MO, but smaller. Though, as the biggest small town in its area, it would have had a school house, attended at least by the middle class families.
Big Mac was born in 1474 and Applejack in 1478 YOH. So they grew up in a Ponyville which was important for its position on the rail road. The reason I think they got at least partial elementary school educations is that they are from one of the richest and most prominent farm families in town; it would have embarrassed the Apples to have illiterate, innumerate children. What's more, literacy and numeracy, at least to the point of being able to read contracts and farm journals and do one's own basic accounting, are very important skills when it comes to running a farm bigger than a bare-subsistence plot -- and Sweet Apple Acres is a big orchard.
One should remember that students may learn in places other than formal schools. For instance, I doubt that Granny Smith is illiterate -- and yet she grew up first in a wagon train and then in a nascent town. She was probably taught to read, write and do her reckoning by her parents. That's how a lot of children in the better families learn such things on a frontier.
2312076
I would hope that somepony messing around with fundamental forces of nature would at least have a nodding familiarity with chemistry and physics. Especially physics! Also, Twilight pretty much reads everything -- I would be surprised if she didn't know at least a little about everything.
I think that the Apples have had a limited formal education, but we know that the town had an elementary school when they were young, so there's no logical reason why they didn't attend it at least until the death of their parents (that's probably when Big Mac left school, because he was needed full-time to work the farm. The workload has probably gotten easier since AJ became old enough to provide serious help.
2313148
Well, fair enough.
I expect for the ponies that would be far more common in the big cities like Manehattan, Canterlot, or Baltimare, while being less in vogue in Ponyville.
Another thing worth consideration--and it goes back to AShadowofCygnus' comments--is that there might be a bit of a pushback against it, especially if it seems to the traditional earth ponies that this is coming from the unicorns in Canterlot sticking their muzzles where they're not wanted. Given the tradition of doing things the, well, traditional way (like Winter Wrap-Up), I could see there being some resistance.
2313237
Sorry--I wasn't suggesting that Twilight didn't know. You're right; she'd read practically any book she could get her hooves on. I meant it more as a generalization, in that a unicorn graduating with a degree in advanced teleportation (for example) might not be expected to know what we'd consider core college curriculum.
I assume that's when Big Mac dropped out entirely. AJ went to school, but her attendance was spotty--when she had to help on the farm, it came first. Applebloom is the first one to attend regularly, and both Big Mac and AJ insist upon it, because they want her to get a good education.
Of course, one's headcanon varies depending on when and how the parents died, and whether or not any of the Apple family came and helped out.
2311907 I guess. Probably a combination of the two things.
2312459
The thing I don't get is how Rarity could have her own business already. Even if she's on the high end of high school age, I just don't see that working well. I mean, fuck, I'm 19, and I sure as hell couldn't run my own business. I don't know of very many other 19 year-olds who could, either.
2315039
Well, I knew an 18 year old who was running some of a hog farm.
If we figure that they mature slightly faster than humans (but like humans it's variable), I could see it. Let's say that Rarity has wanted to be a fashion designer ever since she was a filly. She attends school normally, maybe apprentices to a seamstress--probably starting when she's six or seven. If she's frugal with the bits she earns, she'd have a really nice nest egg by the time she graduated (which, by my theory, would be when she was between 10 and 14). Her parents might have contributed some, as well. I'd assume that besides picking up on sewing skills during her apprenticeship, she'd also learn the ins and outs of the business.
It can't hurt that her special talent is finding gems, either.