Twily is the Cruelest Month · 4:16am Jan 19th, 2013
i'm not gonna get into the habit of making a blog post for every story i do
cause
y'know
but this one deserved one, because it's kind of a special event
as you'll see in the description of the new story, i did a collab with Appleloosan Psychiatrist that i think turned out great. i've said a ton about ap's writing in the past and how much i like it, but please give a follow if you want to give one the fandom's better authors the attention they deserve.
we probably put a lot more thought into the message and execution in a story about twicest than people would expect... but that's half the fun of writing stuff in the first place. either way, i think it turned out well.
hoping to do further stuff with AP in the future, but we'll see what the future holds.
i also promise i'll try to tone down the blog posts after this.
Tone down the blog posts? Aww...
TONE IT UP
I don't mind your blogs. They can get pretty interesting.
Yeah, you're practically worshipping her.
If I didn't know you're not human, I would think you're wooing her.
And I think u're getting TOO close to her seeing how many foals stories you're writing recently
Just write moar.
726579
oh, no, i can assure you that's not the case
he doesn't need to do any wooing
he already has me completely in thrall
Please do blogs for each story. Please? For all of your adoring fans?
728049
Adoring fan?
...
BY AZURA BY AZURA BY AZURA!
Sorry.
New story isn't exactly relevant to my interests, I always give a darf fic a shot of course, but between miss me, fruit and this, I can't honestly say they held me the same way, perhaps it is just personal distaste for the content focussed on that makes it hard to see past it and enjoy the absolutely brilliant quality of the writing.
I have been following AP's writing for a while, and for the most part I have the same mindset: fantastic quality writing, utterly brilliant narrative arcs, fetishes that wierd me out a bit too much.
I look forward to whatever comes next, if I have come off as too critical, let me just say your main page is on my opera mobile speed dial, and has been since May the best butt win.
Also, blog more, we like hearing from you, I thought you would have figured that one out by now
728255 We love darf! darf must blog more! MORE BLOGS FROM OUT BELOVED WRITER!
728268
RARGH BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
CLOP FOR THE CLOP GOD!
CLOP FOR THE CLOP GOD!
CLOP. FOR. THE. CLOP. GOD!!
We taking this too far d'ya think?
728303 Too far? No, too far is offering him a sacrifice. *hides a goat and knife* We're just simply telling him how much we want more blogs by spamming this one. Am I right darf? Spamming your notification box so you'll blog more? Annoying isn't it?
You succeeded.
I looked at this story expecting something along these lines and... no you didn't. Now, if you're making the point that any amount of thought into an incest fic is "more than people would expect..." well, then fair enough. Please disregard the rest of this post.
But to say that there was no thought or effort put into that story would be inaccurate, true. But neither the message nor the execution of this story are well-thought-out.
What I mean by that is, what is the message here? Rape is bad because of how the victim feels during it? No one likes being raped. That's... that's why it's rape. So I don't think any new ground is being stuck with your message, seeing how redundant it is.
Your message is limited in its scope because of the execution of this piece is also limited. This is not a well-done, well-thought-out introspective into the life and crisis of a rape victim. This is rape porn. It's a decent look at the mechanics and emotions of being raped, while one is being raped. But you're only showing the direct consequences of rape: "I'm losing sleep. I feel guilty for feeling good. I feel dirty." But you're not showing the long-term consequences of serial rape, other than how the bed is starting to wear and tear, which is... woefully functional. Then again, "woefully functional" would probably be the words I'd use to sum my thoughts on this story up.
It functions to show Twilight being raped by her older brother—but only the ramifications that happen at night. You're not doing much (or enough) to show the "real" crime of how rape devalues someone, makes them feel powerless, and that affects other aspects of their life. You hint, but don't show.
So, you thought out one facet of rape. You executed one facet of rape. You might've even thought about some of the others, but the execution mainly focused on one.
You only focus on the wet part of rape, which I suppose is the "fun" part, but... in terms of every rape fic out there that does this exact same thing, there's nothing new here. Nothing's exceeding expectations.
737671
well, i'm sorry you feel that way
it's your place as a reader to dictate your perceived value of something, and no amount of me blustering about intent is going to change that
authors arguing for the value of their work is usually a traditionally inadvisable practice anyway
all i will say is that i disagree, but i respect your opinion
thanks for sharing your thoughts
737766
What was your intent?
737872
that's a bit of a loaded question. there's a big difference between the intent of someone when writing a piece, and the message of that piece independent of why they wrote it in the first place.
it's also a bit hard to answer because ap and i discussed and debated heavily over the message of the story. we knew we were shooting ourselves in the foot by having any duality of meaning at play when we could easily have either written something simple and salacious, or something completely devoid of viscerality and abstract or subdued in its description. but we didn't want to do that, so this story is what we came up with.
we're also both of the opinion that dismantling any story completely - ripping it apart to its component pieces and labeling each of them to say, absolutely, 'this is what this story is', is doing a huge disservice to the story in the first place. that's a bit of a cop-out, but if what we wrote is to have any merit as something to be read in the first place, it's meant to invite the reader's interpretation and understanding, rather than us pulling apart its organs and classifying them. plus, there's a danger in that practice that, as the reader, you might disagree with our execution on every point, and then the story is without even the engagement of the reader to give it purpose
if we had wanted to write something with the purpose of titillation for people interested in rape, we could have done exactly that. i felt a bit slighted seeing you call this story 'just like any other rapefic', because an author in the comments pointed out what he believed were similarities to his own shining/twilight story in this fashion, and asked what was so different about ours. i think the answer is clear in the first sentence, but it plays into why the story is written the way it's written.
i've tried a couple times to start a sentence explaining what we thought about the story's purpose or point before deleting what i've written. i don't know how to say it in a fashion i feel won't invite contention based on your perception of our intent. so, i'll try to sum it up;
the ideas that went into this story were meant to be communicated through empathy, and through visiting upon the reader the sensations of the experience as it takes place. i can't say more about the underlying theme without breaking apart the intent to analyze the text and draw out the meaning, but it's summed up pretty wholly in the description. family is complicated. sometimes bad ponies do good things, and the way we deal with those things is confusing, but we do it because we feel it's necessary. we wanted to communicate twilight's perception of the goings on wholly, and in doing so invite contemplation about the act, the relationship, and what it means about human (or pony) nature as a result. without clubbing anyone overhead with the message, the intent is wholly in that analysis. whether or not you feel it was properly executed is up to you, but i wouldn't have replied to your comment if i didn't feel otherwise. i particularly think your summation of the theme of the story as 'rape is bad' is wildly divergent from it's actual message, or at least the one we intended to communicate when writing it.
i know it's not enough to say that thought was put into something to validate it - because if you, the reader, doesn't interpret that thought, then the exchange between creator and content-consumer is shattered. i can't speak volumes against the nature of the piece as something purely to be read for pleasure, but i can say that it wasn't meant to be that when it was formulated. if you disagree with its status now, once again, i can't argue too much more against that opinion, but i can say that it's a bit dismissive to say there was no concerted effort or thought put into something deeper than you might be seeing.
all that being said, i'd be happy to discuss/deconstruct the story further with you at your request if you'd like to send me a message; i just don't want to spread the guts out on the table where everyone can see.
thanks for asking anyway, though again, i have a feeling this is too many words for something you're probably going to dismiss as either inflationary bluster or wishful thinking.
738592
Au contraîre, your first sentence is Twilight showing that she's uncomfortable in her bed. Now, while this is hinting, in a sense, that her home life outside of being raped is uncomfortable because of the rape—and this is the direction you need to go if you want to break out of the mold of every other rapefic that is merely pornography—you lose any and all points for that because three short paragraphs later...
so begins the rape.
My problem with this story, and why I'm not incorrect in saying that "this is just like any other rapefic," is that... well, again, you only focus on the sensations, emotions, and actions during the rape itself. You yourself admit (in many more words) that the intent of this story is:
Which is exactly my point. A vast, vast majority of the rape fics / rape porn in this fandom (and in the world in general) are showing "the experience as it takes place." Very few make rape out to be anything but a twisted sense on the physical act of sex, and in doing so, they ignore many of the long-term effects of rape that are the reason rape is bad in the first place.
This isn't to say this isn't a decently well-done bit of what it is: rape porn. But I think you're overstepping your perceived intentions if you think this is showing anything new about rape (it isn't) or making the plight of rape any more realistic to its readers (it isn't).
You, uh... you'll post a 6,000-word story of a horse's older brother graphically forcing his penis into her vagina, but you're worried about too much exposition of the inner workings of the writing itself?
738592
i.imgur.com/GAhU9Yz.png
739016
you're still kind of missing the point. you seem hung up on the idea that the point of the story is to communicate the idea that 'rape is bad', which is not the message of the story, nor has it ever been. i tried to explain that, but it's obvious you've got an idea in your head about what the story is and what its value is as a result. that's fine, but i told you i'd be happy to discuss it further elsewhere, rather than have you reiterate what you'd already said because you have an opinion firmly cemented already. your opinion of myself/ap and the story itself is obviously fairly low, which is fine, but i'll remind you that the whole discussion taking place arose here because you accused me of not putting thought or effort into a message beyond the one you perceived initially, which isn't really your place to say regardless.
i'm not doing myself or anyone else any favours by trying to argue the value of something you're convinced is worthless, and i'll endeavour not to do so – but you asked what the intent of the story was, and i tried to explain it because sitting down in a document with ap and thinking 'why are we writing this the way it's being written' had a lot more thought than 'let's write about rape'. is that a part of it? sure. because, as i already mentioned, we were convinced we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by touching on two pieces of interest at the same time. we turned out to be wrong, but that's neither here nor there.
again, choose to believe that if you want or not, but it's fairly obvious you have no intention of considering the worth of anything i'm saying. i tried to be respectful of your disagreement at the outset, but if you're going to hammer home the notion of your cemented disapproval of what i've written, there's not much point in inviting further discussion.
739599
When I asked what the motivation for this piece was, you basically said "to show people what it's like to be raped." This is also demonstrated by how the story is told from Twilight's perspective.
Now, this whole thing began because of what I read in your blog post:
Or, as I like to call it, the part where you were congratulating yourself on this story's message. All I've said up to this point is a reminder that, no, there's really no need to congratulate yourself. You showed rape from a rape victim's perspective—nothing new.
While I personally dislike the story (it's rape porn), on its own, it is innocuous and banal enough for me to pass it by without a thought. That's not necessarily a slight against you, that's just saying that... well, it's rape porn, that you wrote for yours (and others') enjoyment. I don't necessarily hate the story for what it is.
What I do hate, though, is this sense of smug satisfaction you seem to take from writing what is, basically, just another rape fic.
739657
once again, you're imparting what you assumed is the 'message' of the story based on what my attempt at explaining it was. you're also projecting some level of self-importance or self-aggrandizement on me for saying that i (and ap) tried, when writing this story, to think about what we wanted to say more than 'this is rape'. i can't be sure of how further to articulate this, but that is your perception, and to say that no level of thought or effort went into the construction of something you are dismissing is again, not your place.
i don't consider this a masterpiece of literature, nor have i once patted myself on the back for writing it. i don't know where you've developed this antagonism for me other than the fact that i wrote something you seem convinced has no worth other than catering to people's fetishes. if that's the case, as i said previously, you've made it very clear i'm not going to convince you otherwise. but again, you're still not understanding why any of the thought or effort toward execution made me write that sentence in the first place. your statement that 'rape is bad' is the message of the story is, and was not the message we attempted to impart. when i explained the necessity of description and focus on the event as its taking place, that too was not the message, but the technique and execution used to impart the feeling of the piece's theme on the reader.
and yes, i've fully admitted multiple times, that i'm totally aware this story is detailed to a level of potential salaciousness, and as such is tripping over itself in any attempt to be more than 'rape-porn', a phrase which you seem to enjoy using over and over again. is this just an attempt to make me and ap feel bad about writing this story? is it you showing up and saying 'well it's great that you think you accomplished something other than literary trash, but you didn't, and you need to stop believing you did'? i don't know what to say to that, if so. i've said more than once that if you're dead-set in your opinion, no amount of elaboration on my part is going to convince you to change your mind. if you're just trying to articulate that i'm wrong to make me feel bad for deluding myself... well, that's something separate, but i think it's a bit of a misappropriated focus. i think the fact that i can, for even a second, try to articulate what i meant to say by writing that story other than 'it's meant for people to jerk off to' says something about what its worth may or may not be - but evidently, in your mind, that's 'self-congratulation' or misappropriated self-praise. i'm not going to apologize for saying i thought and worked hard on communicating something in a story i wrote. if you disagree that i did so, i can say again and again that i think otherwise, but i can't convince you from hammering on your notion that i'm incorrect.
so i'm not sure what you'd like me to say.
739657
739691
You failed, then.
I didn't say that no thought went into it. On a micro level, you do a decent job of showing "why it's bad to get raped while you're being raped." On a macro level, you didn't expand very much on rape past the incident itself, which is where this (and most other rape fics) falls flat.
You did, which started this whole thing.
If you stopped saying this and actually showed this worth, I might concede.
Enlighten me.
Yet you say the motivation for writing the story was:
Which I read as "I'm showing readers what it's like to be raped." Though I'll admit that I missed this part (it was buried under a wall of text with no apparent breaks between sentences—that misunderstanding is completely placed on your lack of capital letters):
Where you basically said, "The point of this piece is that families are silently torn apart by incestuous rape, which can be perpetuated by the victim's desperation to keep things 'normal'." And while you did hint at that strongly in the story, you did it all within the context of the rape while it is happening. This message gets diluted from "rape makes people who normally love one another act differently" to "rape makes people who normally love one another act differently while they are being raped." The distinction is important, because as it's presented, you're not focusing enough on their "relationship" outside of the bedroom.
I don't care that you wrote this story...
I care about this, but as one coherent thought of, "I think you're overly congratulating yourself on understanding the emotional turmoil that is part of any non-terrible rape porn fic." Meaning, any decently done rape porn is going to focus on the emotional aspect of the rape victim. The helplessness? The self loathing? That's a huge part of why rapists rape in the first place.
So you'll have to forgive me if I read a story that depicts the entire act, from arousal to climax, of sex, in incredibly graphic, sensory detail, and then call that "porn." You'll have to forgive me if I call a story that focuses on the victim's powerlessness and emotional responses to being forcibly violated as "rape porn."
But you wrote rape porn, then basically bragged, "My rape porn's got emotions!" That's like saying, "My sandwich has toppings!" In order to praise yourself on the message and emotional content in a story about rape, you'd have to go way beyond the wet part of rape. You didn't. And that's my problem with this.
739698
739956
dude, what is your problem? i don't know how much more i can concede that you disagree with what i'm saying about my story than i already have. are you not going to be happy until i publicly renounce my opinion on something i wrote? why are you so invested in what i think of myself or my writing?
even if you had the firmest conviction about your opinion, you're being a dick. i've said as much as i can say about what i wrote, and if you still disagree, that's fine, but you've made it a pretty antagonistic agenda to harp on this endlessly for a discussion that i engaged in by saying 'i disagree but respect your opinion'.
if you want me to say 'you're right and i'm wrong', you're not going to get it, but the least you could do is respect one of the first things i said which is that an author arguing the value of his own work is going to accomplish nothing. i likely shouldn't have responded to your comment in the first place, but now all you're doing is making me regret bothering to try and explain myself when your engagement of the situation is to try and have the final word by pointing out how reprehensible you think i might be, or that a story i wrote is. i also asked you to take it to a pm if you wanted to prolong the discussion (in a fairly pleasant manner as well, i thought), but you've made it clear you either think i'm a shitlord not worthy of a proper discussion, or are only interested in publicly shaming me.
i don't see any value in continuing this conversation - but, like all things, you're free to disagree.
739983
I'm still waiting for you to attempt to engage in discussion, to talk with me instead of at me.
If you're not going to address the points I made and keep falsely maintaining that "My Twilight rape porn is better than all the other rape porn out there..." well, then you're right, this is a waste of my time.
739998
you read the part where i said that if you read something, me arguing its value isn't going to convince you of its worth, right? because i know that's the case. do you believe that if i did a point by point outline of what i feel is the meaning behind the story, that you'd be suddenly inspired to change your opinion? the antagonistic nature of your original point is pretty indicative that such a thing isn't the case, and i feel it's an exercise in futility and frustration to pour out the heart of something i wrote and have you dismiss it anyway.
740005
If you were able to point out how the deeper meaning to this story outweighs the fact that it's rape porn and makes it an actually intelligent, insightful, look into rape? Of course I would. I currently disagree with this, and have made it my point to state that, but your reaction to hearing my disagreement has been to clam up, condescend against me, and operate under the assumption that I'm wholly irrational.
740027
my original reaction was to say that i don't want to disassemble the entirety of the story because both myself and its other writer are in agreement that doing that completely robs a story of its meaning by virtue of making it no longer an interpretation, and instead a list of bulleted points for contention.
and, though i don't feel it's the case, i think i'd be justified in responding in a less than accommodating fashion to someone who began their interaction with me with 'you are a liar and/or a failure', as summarized by your
– which again, is in regards to me saying
which i think is entirely true. that quote doesn't even touch on the idea of how much meaning is there - it says we thought about the construction, execution, and theme of this story more than people who usually write things on the same pairing/topic, and i don't think you can disagree with that in any fashion because you have no idea how much work and effort we put into writing this story.
so saying 'no you didn't' concedes entirely that you don't disagree with my original statement; you disagree with the fact that i feel happy for how much work i put into something, and the message i attempted to convey. your disagreement with that message is entirely separate, though i tried to elaborate without pulling it apart, on how the execution aids the purpose of the story.
if your only desire was to have me spit out why i feel the thing i have written is valuable, you'll note that i repeatedly said i had no interest in doing that. what floors me is the fact that you had the audacity to claim something i wrote was without value, and then when i respectfully said i disagreed and commended you for your opinion, you've railed on me repeatedly about how i'm not making a point other than titillating people - and, when i offered to discuss the themes and ideas in the story more with you in private, you continued down this route and showed no interest in engaging in a mutually respectful discourse, which soured any notion of a continued discussion on the topic in the first place.
740074
So... you're going to invalidate my opinion by saying, "It's wrong, because I'm the author, and I know the correct interpretation," and when I ask for the correct interpretation as it might change my opinion, you "don't want to give the interpretation because it will devalue of the piece?"
I'm starting to doubt there even is an underlying message. I think you're trolling by saying there is, but really, this is just adequately-thought-out rape porn.
740175
that's not what i said at all. i've repeatedly professed you're entitled to your opinion, but your original comment, and the one i just pointed out, had nothing to do with that. it had to do with the intent and investment in crafting a story in the first place, which, it's entirely true, is not your place to denounce. there's no 'wrong' when you evaluate the worth of a piece's communication, though you seem convinced there is when you've repeatedly summarized the message of the story (one i pointed out was not the story's intent) and refer to the value of that message as 'right' or 'wrong'. in that regard, you can believe whatever you want.
I can say that objectively, this story did very little beyond "being rape porn."
Between the walls of text with terrible grammar, I am able to discern that you are proud of the parts of your story that weren't the bare minimum for rape porn.
I'm saying that there wasn't that much to be proud of, and that you should recognize that.
You say there's more than that.
I ask for it.
You say that telling me would devalue the piece as it was supposed to be "up for interpretation."
That is bullshit.
If you can't even tell me what the message is, how am I supposed to know what it is? Because I read it, and apart from a small twist to make it realistic rape porn, there wasn't anything above the average rape porn. I mean, hell, you could replace the characters in this with Big Mac and Applejack, and it would change nothing of the story except for setting (and your "hornjob" scene).
As someone who critically reads prose, this is a problem, and it's a symptom of how there's not much to this story other than "Colt raping filly."
740248
no, you can't say anything 'objectively'
740258
You don't capitalize your sentences. That is an objective fact.
Rainbow Dash did not appear in your story. That is an objective fact.
You focused on the physical act of rape and the emotions felt during it more than you focused on the effects of rape that have nothing to do with the sex part. That is an objective fact.
740248
i shudder to think about all the fics you've roundly rejected because you're not able to see any possible message a story might be attempting to convey beyond the most cursory
>If you can't even tell me what the message is, how am I supposed to know what it is?
if you really think it's the authors job to include a postscript deconstructing their piece, then that really says a lot about your vaunted "critical reading abilities"
like
if you didn't like the story
or didn't think that it told anything beyond "rape"
then that's cool, that's fine, that your right as a reader, no problems there
but when you come in here like and start acting like a dick and telling us, essentially, that we have no cause for being proud of something that we put thought into because you, personally, didn't see that thought parlay into a meaning piece and therefore ~obviously~ there was no greater thought behind the work
then that's the thing I have a point of contention with
I'm now convinced that no amount of arguing with you overcome your preconceived notions of this, simply based on how disparaging you've been thus far, but the fact that you rejected darf's offer to take this conversation to PM where he would extrapolate on the guts of the story and the thoughts that went into it is really indicative of your motivation in this conversation.
740294
I put thoughts into the fiber content of the food I buy, but that doesn't mean I'm proud of my shits. Thought != value.
If the author claims there's something in the story that there isn't, then yeah, he should be able to back that up. Like, if I met J. K. Rowling on the street and she said, "Dumbledore's gay!" I'd voice my disbelief and ask for proof. But since she's a competent author, she'd be able to point to things in her story that support her claim.
I'm not even getting the claim that "Dumbledore's gay." I'm metaphorically hearing that someone's gay. Then when I ask who, I'm hearing I'm getting "I'm not going to spill my story's guts out in the open. This is My Little Pony rape porn, it has standards, you philistine!"
740294
The fact that darf isn't willing to discuss the finer points in public is very telling of this alleged "thought" that went into this piece. Surely, if you were honestly able to bring up points about how NickNack is incorrect, how the story does in fact go beyond rape porn, how there is a greater underlying message, I am absolutely positive that you could just as easily express these points in public, for all to see, so that NickNack may eat his words. Perhaps with the right arguments, you could even bring cutlery and condiments to the table.
Alas, that the two of you needed to write this story together, that it takes two people to come up with something just barely beyond rape porn, is also very telling. You see, it is not the fault of the reader when you fail to get your point across.
740294
Allow me to publish the reply I received. Clearly, both of these authors are not above belittling the people who challenge them.
i.imgur.com/4f1wNLb.png
740509
So NickNack is correct, then. There truly is nothing more to this story beyond rape while it happens. Because instead of being productive by offering proof, you're insulting the people who request it.
By the way, calling me an idiot does not make me one. It doesn't make you right, or superior, it doesn't make me wrong or inferior. It just shows everyone else that you don't have anything but namecalling left.
740509
So... you're unable to carry on an intelligent discussion about your story, and we're idiots...
Right.
740529
I think you're confusing ability with willingness. As I've expressed, I don't think a productive conversation with you on this topic is possible, given how consistently you've rebuked all attempts by darf to engage in a mature and conciliatory conversation.
If even a statement as simple as "well that's your opinion and I disagree with it, but I respect your holding it. Thanks for sharing" draws your ire, then I think I'm done engaging you in a mature manner.
If darf disagrees, he's welcome to continue this conversation as long as he wants. He's a lot more patient and eloquent than me, so he'll probably express things a bit better than I could. I, however, have since lost the point of this thread of conversation. You've gone from denying that we've put thought into the story to expressing that the thoughts don't translate into a meaningful piece. I've lost track of what you're trying to prove, or accomplish. If you're so adamant about denying that this piece could be anything more than "rape-porn" then there's absolutely nothing to gain from saying anything else, and I don't predict further conversation ending in anything even close to a reconciliation of our viewpoints.
You seem to be on some misguided crusade to show that we have no right to be proud of the story that we wrote together.
I honestly can't think of a single reason beyond your own desire to aggravate that you would refuse darf's offer to engage on a discussion on this story privately.
740585
I'm drawing conclusions based on evidence. I've asked several times and haven't received a straight answer.
And seeing how Kinsley's "taking it to PM" ended with you berating them in private... yeah, no thanks. I don't see what the big secret is that this story can only be discussed in private in the first place.
At this point, it's pretty obvious that you guys are delusional about your story. So, enjoy that, I guess.
740605
i didn’t expect that a conversation i initially responded to with ‘i disagree, but that’s cool’ would get such an avalanche of vitriol for my continued reading.
but i’ll bite.
when i was young, an english teacher told me a story about a group of university students who compiled their thoughts on a book and sent them to the author. the individual in question was john gardener, author of the novel ‘grendel’. they told him what they thought of the book, what they imagined its themes and messages were, and invited a discussion on the matter. he proceeded to publicly and infamously denounce everything they had speculated on, saying they missed the point entirely.
i have never wanted to do anything like that, which is part of the reason i have said over and over that i don’t want to spread out the inner workings of a story in public for everyone to see - aside from the fact that it defeats any further interpretation on said story in the future, which is a point we seem to differ on.
for any notion of ‘meaning’ to be present in the story ap and i wrote, there is an issue of contention with your opinion on how a story can communicate its themes; when you spoke about how, if we had really wanted to articulate the idea of rape, the after-effects, consequences, etc., we could have written a longer piece, focusing on the aftermath, twilight’s reconciliation of the rape, etc. you have stated over and over that because the story engages so imminently with the description of the act taking place, that it can have no message beyond ‘this is happening’, and invite the reader, in your proposed case, to masturbate to it.
i vehemently disagree with the idea that a story cannot communicate meaning through an event, and i can’t imagine you’ll listen to anything i have to say unless you can concede that. if you can’t, we simply have a difference of opinion, which was the case in the first place.
i can think of no novel i have read or movie that i have enjoyed as much as one that invited a question from me, rather than presenting the question and asking me to consider its validity. yes, we could have written a story about the aftermath and psychological effects of rape - but why would we have done that? stories like that already exist. people are aware that rape is bad. they know how it affects people. aside from the fact that ap and i are, primarily, smut writers, we wanted to tackle the subject matter in a different approach. ‘let’s write this story’, we started out saying. but then we said ‘how can we make this meaningful?’ the supposition that describing an act as it occurs is without meaning is one wholly opposed to every belief i have on the subject of writing.
in an example, given two stories about loss; one, a short piece relating a mother’s emotion and reaction as she holds her dying child in her arms - and two, a second, longer piece following the mother in the aftermath of her loss, dealing with the emotions, effects, and consequences of that lost - i would almost always rather read the first, because it doesn’t hit me over the head with its message. it imparts an idea - a consideration to the reader to contemplate the themes and what they mean by extrapolation. what is loss? how can we relate to the mother as that loss takes place? what does this say about the fragility of life? the notion of motherly love? life in general? in the second example, the story tries to TELL us what the answers to those questions are, and i have no interest in reading something of that nature, nor in writing it.
if you can concede that, yes, there is value in the imminence of a moment, you will see why the story is written with a focus on description as it is. is rape salacious to some people? yes, and both ap and i are fully considerate of that. so what is it about rape people like? the power? control? the suffering of the individual in question? apart from the last point (communicated in what was attempted to be such a cold, miserable way that we imagined no person could glean anything ‘enjoyable’ from it), this story attempts to visit none of those. what is rape, then? it’s something ugly and impure and horrible and a besmirchment of someone’s rights as an individual. is that what what we wrote? yes, fully and completely, because it bears consideration. it’s one thing to say ‘rape happens’, but it’s fully another thing to watch that experience through someone else, and to feel it as it occurs. to extrapolate further - why would you write that? to invite those questions. what does it mean for the individual in question? what will they do to deal with the aftermath of this act? in our story, that is extended even further, because this is implied to be a recurring event - this isn’t the first time, it won’t be the last. so what does the reader know about the goings on, when we’ve provided no context for the event? why hasn’t twilight said something? why does she give in to her brother’s insistence, still uttering the words ‘i love you’ when things are over? this begins to touch on the message underlying the execution, but it’s that execution that’s important. as numerous other people have pointed out, you’re not supposed to feel like you’re there - you’re supposed to feel what twilight feels, and i can’t think of any rape porn that is more about empathizing with the misery of the victim than living through the viscera of the individual in control of the situation.
so, we move further on from that. why? why any of this? we come back to the idea of asking questions, rather than saying ‘this happens because this’. do we want to tell people what the mechanics of the situation are, or do we want to work them out? do we want to draw an additional level of reader engagement by leaving those hanging threads, and making them tie them together? yes, to all the latter - and as for ‘why’? then we touch on the themes of the piece, which is what you’ve seemed so insistent on me breaking down in the hopes that you might cast your nebulous vote of validity upon them and i can be spared further antagonism in the comments section of a debate that arose from me saying “we thought hard about what we were writing”.
the reason the act is so visceral is because there is no better way to communicate the emotion twilight experiences than by making the reader feel it. we wanted discomfort, we wanted misery, we wanted a duality of emotion in burning hot hate for something she loathes, but the nagging feeling of the love for her brother that’s always there. what does this say about rape? it says that it’s not always something cut and dry. it’s not always blunt, forceful, or easy to divorce yourself from. it happens orchestrated by the people we love, and the people we trust. sometimes, we don’t even call it that, because we’re so confused by the multiplicity of emotion that goes into every interaction with another person that we can’t bring ourselves to say ‘this is rape’. if we had written another chapter where twilight dealt with a confrontation over her brother’s actions, would she admit to being raped? i don’t believe so. boiling down this idea even further, that is the idea of this piece. it is about duality, it’s about the interplay of familial obligation and affection woven with something horrible and damning and broken. why would anyone do what shining did? this is an action driven out of animalistic fulfillment and disregard for people around him. but he still loves his sister, and that’s confusing. it makes the reader consider the extent of love, or the extent of emotion in general. why does twilight let it happen? does she LET it happen? to what extent is she being forced? and at the end, why does she say that she loves him? how can she love him after what he’s just done? with all of these questions, the reader is granted the ability to consider their meaning, but neither myself nor ap wanted to give the answers, because that would utterly and completely defeat the purpose of what we wrote.
the original point that you took issue with - us saying that something was well thought out, or had consideration given to a message - regardless of your assessment of that message, i have said repeatedly that i don’t know where you get off saying that statement could be false. i can’t quantify thought or investment, but if you can say with any degree of confidence that neither of us were invested in writing this story, i can counterpoint with just as much confidence that i don’t think there’s a single writer on fimfiction who’s scrawled down a piece of twicest rape and thought ‘gee, what does the language communicate in this passage? is it evocative enough of twilight’s emotion? when her sentences become more elongated, does that show the passage of time slowing in her perception? does the interplay of the phrasing here demonstrate the duality of the theme? have we presented the notion of love’s beauty versus the ugliness of desire?’ more than likely, what they’re saying is, ‘is this something satisfactory to masturbate to?’ if you believe that’s all we thought when writing this story, then there’s no force in the world i can use to convince you.
the problem with writing this - with ALL of this - is that from step one, this has been an act of defense against accusation. my blog post said ‘i think we put a lot of thought into the message and themes of this piece’, and you said, succinctly, ‘no you didn’t’. you then went on to disparage the story as a piece of writing - an opinion i told you i understood, but disagreed with - and then when you asked for elaboration, i tried to compose my response without doing this; without trying to prove to you why the story has value. because, as i’m sure you’re aware as well, this is a doomed pursuit. engaging a discussion on the merits and values of a piece of work is one thing, but when you begin the discussion with ‘this has no value’, and then impart the onus on the writer to convince you otherwise; you know that’s a losing battle.
it’s demeaning to expect an author to rip apart something he has written and convince a reader of its relevance. if you didn’t draw out the meaning we put into it, that’s well and good, but continually saying things like ‘this objectively has no value’, ‘you didn’t execute on this well’, ‘ i don’t see the effort you put in here’, is both accusatory and offensive. and, as i have said multiple times, whether or not you believe the questions we attempted to invite and the ideas we meant to bring to consideration were well executed is up to you, but it’s still incredibly rude of you to insinuate that we don’t deserve to say ‘we thought hard and worked hard on this story’ because you don’t think it demonstrates its themes well. it’s the equivalent to saying not only that you hated it, but that we’re reprehensible human beings for wanting it to be anything more than what you think it is. this is all the avenue of opinion, but curtailing it into ‘i demand proof of your intent’ is inane; another reason why i didn’t want to do this.
i fully expect a scathing counterpoint of why all the things i have said are incorrect, which is not how writing works. an author creates something with what they plan to be its meaning and orchestration, and a reader engages with it and draws their conclusions upon doing so. they do not confront the author and say ‘your story didn’t do the things you said it did, prove me wrong’. just take your opinion and treat it as that; your opinion. don’t try to behold us to some imaginary standard of conduct to uphold what we feel is a hard-written piece of work.
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741027
Wow I turn away from fimfic for 2 days and darfs blog turns into a warzone?! Okay that I did not see coming
If I may, as someone who has darf fics in both my top 5 (he probably knows which ones), and my bottom 5 (sorry, some I just couldnt enjoy) I think that it is worth noting that, not unlike yourself, I did not like "not now", in fact I thought it was horrible, remarkably difficult to get through in fact.
It is, frankly, one of the hardest stories I have ever tried to finish reading.
Despite this, and partly because of this, it is very well written, amazingly descriptive, both in a sense of character and in action/inaction, and, there is no way of getting around it, repulsively beautiful in the most paradoxical way.
I hated this fic
I cannot agree with you though on your reasoning, being 'just about the act of the rape' is not doing the descriptivity of true terror of the act justice.
I highly doubt you will change your mind, but the negativity sucks man
741027
The problem with this limited scope is that it diminishes the perception of the true pain of the loss—the years of living with the loss after the fact. By turning a story where rape occurs into just the hard, pumping act of fucking, you color it pornographic and diminish your entire intended effect.
In short, you're writing one scene from The Hills Have Eyes and comparing it to an episode of Law and Order: SVU. Yes, this rape is more graphic, but since it's sexual, it's also lot more common to see when one's looking at the realm of pornography.
I can see your opinion on how the rape itself is more shocking, but can you see my opinion on how the long-term effects of rape are worse than the act itself? If then, can you see why I would think it better to see the worse part of rape addressed if one were writing a fic with the intent of demonstrating the evils of rape?
741386
The "negativity" comes from how the stuff depicted in this fic doesn't even scratch the surface of the true terror of rape.
741797
but that has nothing to do with what we wanted to communicate. we didn't set out with the intent in mind to visit a long-term perspective on the repercussions of rape. we asked people to think. that's all it boils down to. if we made them consider the subject in the first place, our goal was accomplished, but it's wildly more complex than focusing on rape as a whole. this story is much more about familial affection and the duality of conscience than it is about rape. you've got it in your head still that the idea or theme was to communicate 'rape is bad', which i pretty clearly have said multiple times it isn't. if you're hung up on that and the story's failure to convey it as a result (which is likely, because it wasn't the intention of the story in the first place), then that's your prerogative.
personally, i think it's to the point where you're not seeing out of the story what you want to see, and you're refusing to consider all the things i said about what it's themes are, and why we wrote it in the first place.
yes, it is pornographic in its description (focus of titillation aside). call it 'rape porn' if you want. but my original point of contention still stands, wrapped in inclusion with your objection to us 'patting ourselves on the back' for working hard and thinking about a story we wrote.
741828
Compare the screentime of the rape with the screentime of the times Twilight says something but doesn't mean it.
The former happens much more in this fic.
I'm not seeing the story I want to, no, because I'm not seeing a story that stands out from the hundreds of other rapefics that are floating around the Internet. If it took you a lot of thought and effort to strike even with average, then fair enough, congratulate yourself.
I was expecting more.
741981
great. then we come back to 'you don't feel the story delivers on the thought we put into it', which is what i assumed was the case in the first place. i feel like if you need to see words telling you to think something, you're not doing your job as a reader, but maybe you read things differently. as is, i'm not happy you browbeat me to dissect every facet of the story's composition and still seem unable to consider the workings beneath the surface you're so convinced aren't there, basing your judgement on the amount of content you feel is indicative of our underlying themes. but, that plays into what i predicted would be the case anyway - if you don't want to like something, you're not going to like it, and no amount of my explanation is going to change that.
however; being a dick by saying that thought and effort aren't there is kind of unnecessary (and in the language you're using even at this point). you feel one way about the execution, and we feel another. i'm happy to agree to disagree, but i didn't come to you espousing the literary value of the story - i said we put a lot of thought into it (which i don't think you can decry considering the explanation i gave). then you came here and questioned it, so forgive me if i'm a tad put out at your conduct in doing so. i'm not sure why feeling like we've written something worthwhile is so offensive to you, but i would have at least hoped that the level of respect i attempted in my earlier replies would have carried over to your conduct. it didn't, but i won't begrudge you. for now, i'd just be happy to end this discussion, because after several thousand words of explanation, we're back at square one, which is unsurprising.
in the future, if you could avoid calling my stories garbage and then refusing to admit an inch of give when i try to explain their validity (you'll also notice that i'm not in the habit of doing this with other stories i've written - if i feel they're purely porn, i'm more than happy to acknowledge that), that would be swell.
742022
I'm fully aware of the workings of what's beneath this story; it's just as shallow as I assumed it is when I mentioned it in the first place.
If you didn't take a passive, condescending, dodgy, "talk around the question in huge walls of difficult-to-read text" manner and actually spoke in discussions, it wouldn't be necessary to browbeat you to bring your opinion to the table.
I'm amused at how you keep calling your story trash, yet all I've ever—rightfully—called it was rape porn. But again, you seem to be deluded that this is something other than rape porn, so...
Sorry you can't see a spade's a spade?
742428
i should have realized at the outset that entering into a discussion with someone who started by insulting me was a fruitless pursuit. i'm also still baffled at how you seem purely focused on acting like an obnoxious asshole when i've tried at every juncture to be polite and respectful.
sorry i wasted your time by responding to you. i don't have any interest in interacting with you ever again, so i've made that easier for both of us. cheers.