I'm not sure any of us are holding anything against Twilight; we all know that teenagers are composed of only 1 part carbon for every nine parts emotion.
5880588 Glad I could entertain. Much better than Frederick Horseshoepin, in any case. 5904628 I actually explained Celestia's reasoning for punishing Twilight in the comments section of that chapter. Honestly, I'm thinking of just making a blog post about it at this rate. 5907098 Ain't that the truth. 5907114 Then at least, I entertained, if nothing else. 5907303 A flock of migrating birds and a crowd of lemurs hopping down the street, intent of scavenging molasses-covered popcorn and peanuts stuck to ponies is not fast enough? 5907451 I'll try to keep the damage in the kiloton range. 5908036 I think we all do things we regret later on in the teenage years... 5911797 Yes, but I really had no other word for it. 5914627 Nah. Even with the involvement of the lemurs, Discord is still safely stoned. 5915438 i38.photobucket.com/albums/e132/whiterabbit75/ebd.jpg
5917865 OH that wasn't the slow part. I am talking about the over plot. I not one for Tennage Anguish, especially if they last a chapter and it deals more with how she feels rather then correcting it.
Twilight your in food! THIS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING TO HAPPEN Is what rarity would say but me I've had worse mornings so cheer up kid you beat me in that
5917865 Do you mind linking me to the specific post? I'd like to know your position so I can reply. I've long since calmed down, but I still have a lot to say about this story.
5920666 Ok, to be completely honest, that comment doesn’t really address all my problems. Now, this is going to be all kinds of ramble-y so for that, I apologise.
Firstly, I wanna talk about something that in one way or another is mentioned several times.
For not coming to me or anypony in authority with this problem, and instead deciding to 'handle it yourself',
I have a massive problem with this for one simple reason: It’s flat out wrong. It’s stated multiple times that Twilight throughout the years has attempted to stop the bullying, by going to the school, but that Honeyed Words was always too careful.
So it had gone for the past three years. Oh, there had been disciplinary meetings, but never once was Honeyed Words ever directly implicated; no, she was far too careful for that. She seemed to have a neverending stream of friends ready to throw themselves on whatever metaphorical grenade came her way, and she was extremely careful to never say anything that could be implied as threatening, especially with a filly as important as Twilight.
Plain Sight sneered and grumbled angrily. “Light take that filly. If it weren't for her family being so well connected or how clever she's been at keeping her grubby mitts clean, I'd see her expelled for all she's done.”
Now, you might be able to say that after that she should have gone to Celestia, well first of all I’d say that that is a gross simplification of this issue. With psychological torment, it’s not as easy as just ‘go to the authorities’ especially given that Twilight later implies she was punished more severely every time she did. Hell, that’s the reason I think she expects Celestia to punish her, because she’s been conditioned to expect punishment when she crosses Honey, so even when she wins she still expects punishment. Saying that she should have just gone to Celestia acts like none of that social trauma exists, like it would be a simple thing to do.
Let me ask you something. There are people, real people, who have killed themselves because of prolonged bullying that they weren’t able to escape, people who have been in Twilight’s position. Would you ever go to one of their parents and tell them their child should have just gone to the police? Of course not.
Secondly, what exactly could Celestia have done? As you yourself point out, Celestia still needs to operate within the law, the same law that is unable to help Twilight due to the lack of evidence. More authority does not equal more evidence.
Maybe you can argue that it would have at least brought it to Celestia’s attention. Which then raises another important point. How on earth did Celestia not already know?
We see that Plain Sight knew about it and had apparently known for a while, and that she frequently reports to Celestia, and that she tells Celestia the bad stuff, and that Celestia is fiercely protective of Twilight. All that together means that either:
Celestia either didn’t know, making both her and Plain Sight look incompetent, and just as responsible for Twilight’s actions as she is.
Celestia knew but chose not to do anything, making her malicious.
Celestia knew but couldn’t do anything, making her punishment of Twilight hypocritical.
Simply put, the sheer idea that Celestia would punish Twilight is bullshit. It goes against what of her character we had already seen (A mothering sort who’s willing to do the, let’s face it, morally dubious act of establishing a spy ring willing to cause minors pain, which I doubt is legal, to protect Twilight) actually going after Twilight for defending herself in a situation with no other reasonable course of actions. Twilight was damned if she did, damned if she didn’t. It’s also logically and internally inconsistent with the story beforehand. --- There is another thing that bothered me. Everyone we see seems to have an identical reaction to Twilight’s punishment. Celestia, Twilight, Her Parents, Octavia. Despite differing personalities, relationships etc. they all react the same and its woefully unrealistic.
For example, I think Twilight’s Parents would be angrier at Celestia than Twilight. You know, the woman who they entrusted their daughter to and who allowed her to be harshly bullied for 3 whole years?
And then there’s this line.
Were it not for the fact that somepony could have been hurt
That bugs me because I was under the impression that the only pain that Twilight inflicted, the deafening, was caused by her being tortured while using the spell. I’d hardly call that an acceptably foreseeable outcome, especially given she only used the spell in self-defence. That’s like saying a woman using pepper spray against a rapist should be tried for assault because you can TECHNICALLY blind someone permanently with pepper spray. Hell, let’s extend that metaphor, punishing Twilight is like punishing a rape victim because she shouldn’t have been dressed like that walking down that street, rape was always a possibility! Flat out victim blaming.
No, wait. Here’s a better metaphor. Imagine a woman is in an abusive relationship. Let’s make it more applicable...pulling names out of a hat, the woman is called Twilight and the man is called….Flash. Now, Flash is very verbally abusive, but does sometimes get physically abusive. Every time Twilight goes to the police, Flash has his guard buddies give him an alibi, and he’s careful not to leave any bruises. No one believes that Twilight is in an abusive relationship. Now, eventually, Twilight has enough, no one can help her, so she engineers a situation where she tricks Flash into attacking her in public. She ends up hospitalized, but Flash is arrested for assault. She’s free. When she wakes up in hospital, she sees the face of her mother, let’s call her Celestia, and the first thing she says is “I can’t believe you didn’t go to the police! What’s wrong with you?”
That’s what it felt like for me, reading that chapter.
Now, there was one line in the story that genuinely made me hate this stories Celestia.
The alicorn almost lost her composure at the sight of Twilight's overreaction to her punishment
Celestia, Jesus Christ, seriously? Can you not understand how someone who has been emotionally and occasionally physically abused for 3 YEARS, who has been abandoned by the authority figures at her school, might react negatively when the one authority figure she holds to the highest regards turns around and abandons her too right when she finally escapes from her tormentors?! You call it an overreaction? I’d say she was surprisingly strong all things considered!
That goes beyond victim blaming. It is, no joke, no hyperbole, sociopath levels of misunderstanding how a psyche works. Twilight needs therapy, not punishment.
I would think that out of anyone, Celesita would show Twilight the most empathy. You know, Celestia, the being who once had someone close to her spurned and made powerless by an aspect of society who ended up making a really bad decision because of it? Celestia who has now spent a 1000 years alone because of her choices after that? You’d think Celestia would be gentle with Twilight in the vulnerable time.
Instead she punishes her, with a punishment that doesn’t even make sense.
Furthermore, all the books in your apartment are even now being boxed up and placed into storage until your punishment concludes
Wait…so Twilight didn’t own ANY of the books she had in her apartment? None? That seems oddly out of character. If she did own some of them, then I’m pretty sure Celestia is breaking the law and stealing Twilight’s stuff.
And you know what? This could have been so much better without, to my knowledge, changing the overall story too much. Imagine this:
Twilight wakes up, she sees a teary-eyed distraught Celestia. Celestia blames herself for what happened to Twilight. She knew she was being bullied, but couldn’t do anything because all the fillies had powerful connections. She’d been using Plain Sight to minimise the bullying and waiting for the girls to slip up (explaining Plain Sights reaction as quoted above) but she never expected Twilight to do what she did and is heartbroken that Twilight was hurt, because she couldn’t stand to lose someone so closer to her again. However, then Celestia has some bad news. See, even though Twilight didn’t technically break any laws, a lot of nobles are pretty pissed off, so Celestia needs to be seen to at least be making an effort to punish Twilight to mollify them. But she makes it clear to Twilight that this has nothing to do with her and that Celestia still cares for her.
Boom, there, humanize Celestia, create character growth between them, fix up a bunch of plot/logic holes and it doesn’t affect the story much since the public still thinks she’s being punished.
*takes a big breath* Wow I had a lot more to say about that than I thought. Anyway, hope you don’t take any of this too personally (trust me, I’ve had that happen). As I said, I was genuinely enjoying the hell out of this story until that chapter, and I am still reading this, if a bit apprehensive for Celestia’s eventual return. Anyway, look forward to your reply.
I have a massive problem with this for one simple reason: It’s flat out wrong. It’s stated multiple times that Twilight throughout the years has attempted to stop the bullying, by going to the school, but that Honeyed Words was always too careful.
Hmmm... I had intended to make it so that it could be inferred that all those incidents in no way directly implicated Honey, but also that it was others who fell on their own swords, especially where Twilight was concerned. I guess I was a bit too circumspect. Twilight never really tried that hard to go to the authorities, as she was too intimidated, what with her tormentors being 4+ years older than her. This was also a case where Honey's reputation worked against any snitches, because everyone saw her as unassailable, essentially making her so in a self-fulfilling way.
The bullying Twilight endured was far less physical and more simple intimidation, so Twilight was afraid of escalating it by going to the teachers. The worst physical abuse she suffered was some shoving, tripping, and tipping her books from her arms sort of thing, and that was pretty rare, because Honey knew she was walking a fine line with Twilight. Now, I know what you're thinking. Yes, emotional bullying can be just as terrible as physical, but Honey being a political creature, knew how to use all those tactics quite well. I even named her to show that she could talk her way out of almost anything (her special talent). Combine that with only circumstantial (at best) evidence, and you have a very slippery individual.
With psychological torment, it’s not as easy as just ‘go to the authorities’ especially given that Twilight later implies she was punished more severely every time she did.
Could you point me toward a passage that implied that? I don't remember anything like that off hand.
Let me ask you something. There are people, real people, who have killed themselves because of prolonged bullying that they weren’t able to escape, people who have been in Twilight’s position. Would you ever go to one of their parents and tell them their child should have just gone to the police? Of course not.
That's why I was hesitant to include the subplot at all, and was kicking myself for doing it anyway later. It's a very sensitive subject, one that hits a very strong chord with some people. I try my best to treat the subject with the respect it deserves, but I'm only human, and my intent doesn't always come across like I hope. That being said, I of course would not say that to them. It is incumbent on the parents, teachers, and authority figures to notice these things as well, but there are times when no signs nor evidence is plain, leaving them with nothing to go on. Such is the case with Honey and Twilight. Also, every case of bullying is different with different circumstances and factors. What would work in one case would not necessarily help in another, but to quote Mad-Eye Moody, you can't go wrong with "Constant Vigilance".
Secondly, what exactly could Celestia have done? As you yourself point out, Celestia still needs to operate within the law, the same law that is unable to help Twilight due to the lack of evidence. More authority does not equal more evidence.
Bringing it to Celestia's attention would allow her to bring the attention of a more dedicated investigative force into the matter. Perhaps a private detective, or even temporarily assigning someone to take over Plain Sight's position to allow her to more fully investigate the goings on in Honey's life. There are a number of behind-the-scenes, but still perfectly legal things she could have done.
As for the rest of your comment, it was really hard for me to read. Not that you're a poor writer or anything, but it really pointed out to me why everyone was so upset about the punishment altogether, which hurt. I honestly thought I was doing well until now. Looks like I have some more growing as a writer to do. If you don't mind, I think I will use your suggestion about Celestia's reasoning, and take this as proof that I really need to think before using a subplot like this.
That was hilarious. But poor Twilight I know there is no sad tag so I still have hope the ship will happen I just wish Twilight wouldn't have to go through so much to get there. In the end I think it will be a Twi x Octi x Vinyl ship and I know you can do it well Just look at "The Sorceress, Teacher, and the Wonderbolt" so I look forward to it I WANT MOAR SOON! If that is alright with you.
5926966 I'm fine with you using my suggestion. That's why I suggested it :P
And what's important is that you can recognise problems in your works and address them. That already makes you better than 95% of all writers.
also
Could you point me toward a passage that implied that? I don't remember anything like that off hand.
It was more implied. If Honeyed Words was so eager to physically abuse Twilight for her actions here, then it stands to reason that she would have done the same if Twilight had ever gone directly to the teachers to get Honeyed in trouble. Otherwise, what makes this particular instance above all others worthy of taking the risk and physically attacking Twilight?
I'm not sure any of us are holding anything against Twilight; we all know that teenagers are composed of only 1 part carbon for every nine parts emotion.
it was interesting. not sure how i feel about it as a whole, but it was still interesting.
Great work, though it feels a bit on the slow side. So I can't wait for it to pick up again.
Teenage years are strange. I once kicked a hole in the wall because my dad's sensitivity to light really annoyed me one morning.
It's not a noodle incident of you detail the event, Wrabbit. :P
I'm seriously surprised Discord wasn't released with the sheer amount of chaos caused by a single can.
Commence read.
At least it wasn't the bees.
Now to see how the Princess of Love can help.
5880588
Glad I could entertain. Much better than Frederick Horseshoepin, in any case.
5904628
I actually explained Celestia's reasoning for punishing Twilight in the comments section of that chapter. Honestly, I'm thinking of just making a blog post about it at this rate.
5907098
Ain't that the truth.
5907114
Then at least, I entertained, if nothing else.
5907303
A flock of migrating birds and a crowd of lemurs hopping down the street, intent of scavenging molasses-covered popcorn and peanuts stuck to ponies is not fast enough?
5907451
I'll try to keep the damage in the kiloton range.
5908036
I think we all do things we regret later on in the teenage years...
5911797
Yes, but I really had no other word for it.
5914627
Nah. Even with the involvement of the lemurs, Discord is still safely stoned.
5915438
i38.photobucket.com/albums/e132/whiterabbit75/ebd.jpg
5917865
OH that wasn't the slow part. I am talking about the over plot. I not one for Tennage Anguish, especially if they last a chapter and it deals more with how she feels rather then correcting it.
Twilight your in food! THIS IS THE WORST POSSIBLE THING TO HAPPEN
Is what rarity would say but me I've had worse mornings so cheer up kid you beat me in that
5917865
Do you mind linking me to the specific post? I'd like to know your position so I can reply. I've long since calmed down, but I still have a lot to say about this story.
5920666
Ok, to be completely honest, that comment doesn’t really address all my problems. Now, this is going to be all kinds of ramble-y so for that, I apologise.
Firstly, I wanna talk about something that in one way or another is mentioned several times.
I have a massive problem with this for one simple reason: It’s flat out wrong. It’s stated multiple times that Twilight throughout the years has attempted to stop the bullying, by going to the school, but that Honeyed Words was always too careful.
Now, you might be able to say that after that she should have gone to Celestia, well first of all I’d say that that is a gross simplification of this issue. With psychological torment, it’s not as easy as just ‘go to the authorities’ especially given that Twilight later implies she was punished more severely every time she did. Hell, that’s the reason I think she expects Celestia to punish her, because she’s been conditioned to expect punishment when she crosses Honey, so even when she wins she still expects punishment. Saying that she should have just gone to Celestia acts like none of that social trauma exists, like it would be a simple thing to do.
Let me ask you something. There are people, real people, who have killed themselves because of prolonged bullying that they weren’t able to escape, people who have been in Twilight’s position. Would you ever go to one of their parents and tell them their child should have just gone to the police? Of course not.
Secondly, what exactly could Celestia have done? As you yourself point out, Celestia still needs to operate within the law, the same law that is unable to help Twilight due to the lack of evidence. More authority does not equal more evidence.
Maybe you can argue that it would have at least brought it to Celestia’s attention. Which then raises another important point. How on earth did Celestia not already know?
We see that Plain Sight knew about it and had apparently known for a while, and that she frequently reports to Celestia, and that she tells Celestia the bad stuff, and that Celestia is fiercely protective of Twilight. All that together means that either:
Celestia either didn’t know, making both her and Plain Sight look incompetent, and just as responsible for Twilight’s actions as she is.
Celestia knew but chose not to do anything, making her malicious.
Celestia knew but couldn’t do anything, making her punishment of Twilight hypocritical.
Simply put, the sheer idea that Celestia would punish Twilight is bullshit. It goes against what of her character we had already seen (A mothering sort who’s willing to do the, let’s face it, morally dubious act of establishing a spy ring willing to cause minors pain, which I doubt is legal, to protect Twilight) actually going after Twilight for defending herself in a situation with no other reasonable course of actions. Twilight was damned if she did, damned if she didn’t. It’s also logically and internally inconsistent with the story beforehand.
---
There is another thing that bothered me. Everyone we see seems to have an identical reaction to Twilight’s punishment. Celestia, Twilight, Her Parents, Octavia. Despite differing personalities, relationships etc. they all react the same and its woefully unrealistic.
For example, I think Twilight’s Parents would be angrier at Celestia than Twilight. You know, the woman who they entrusted their daughter to and who allowed her to be harshly bullied for 3 whole years?
And then there’s this line.
That bugs me because I was under the impression that the only pain that Twilight inflicted, the deafening, was caused by her being tortured while using the spell. I’d hardly call that an acceptably foreseeable outcome, especially given she only used the spell in self-defence. That’s like saying a woman using pepper spray against a rapist should be tried for assault because you can TECHNICALLY blind someone permanently with pepper spray. Hell, let’s extend that metaphor, punishing Twilight is like punishing a rape victim because she shouldn’t have been dressed like that walking down that street, rape was always a possibility! Flat out victim blaming.
No, wait. Here’s a better metaphor. Imagine a woman is in an abusive relationship. Let’s make it more applicable...pulling names out of a hat, the woman is called Twilight and the man is called….Flash. Now, Flash is very verbally abusive, but does sometimes get physically abusive. Every time Twilight goes to the police, Flash has his guard buddies give him an alibi, and he’s careful not to leave any bruises. No one believes that Twilight is in an abusive relationship. Now, eventually, Twilight has enough, no one can help her, so she engineers a situation where she tricks Flash into attacking her in public. She ends up hospitalized, but Flash is arrested for assault. She’s free. When she wakes up in hospital, she sees the face of her mother, let’s call her Celestia, and the first thing she says is “I can’t believe you didn’t go to the police! What’s wrong with you?”
That’s what it felt like for me, reading that chapter.
Now, there was one line in the story that genuinely made me hate this stories Celestia.
Celestia, Jesus Christ, seriously? Can you not understand how someone who has been emotionally and occasionally physically abused for 3 YEARS, who has been abandoned by the authority figures at her school, might react negatively when the one authority figure she holds to the highest regards turns around and abandons her too right when she finally escapes from her tormentors?! You call it an overreaction? I’d say she was surprisingly strong all things considered!
That goes beyond victim blaming. It is, no joke, no hyperbole, sociopath levels of misunderstanding how a psyche works. Twilight needs therapy, not punishment.
I would think that out of anyone, Celesita would show Twilight the most empathy. You know, Celestia, the being who once had someone close to her spurned and made powerless by an aspect of society who ended up making a really bad decision because of it? Celestia who has now spent a 1000 years alone because of her choices after that? You’d think Celestia would be gentle with Twilight in the vulnerable time.
Instead she punishes her, with a punishment that doesn’t even make sense.
Wait…so Twilight didn’t own ANY of the books she had in her apartment? None? That seems oddly out of character. If she did own some of them, then I’m pretty sure Celestia is breaking the law and stealing Twilight’s stuff.
And you know what? This could have been so much better without, to my knowledge, changing the overall story too much. Imagine this:
Twilight wakes up, she sees a teary-eyed distraught Celestia. Celestia blames herself for what happened to Twilight. She knew she was being bullied, but couldn’t do anything because all the fillies had powerful connections. She’d been using Plain Sight to minimise the bullying and waiting for the girls to slip up (explaining Plain Sights reaction as quoted above) but she never expected Twilight to do what she did and is heartbroken that Twilight was hurt, because she couldn’t stand to lose someone so closer to her again. However, then Celestia has some bad news. See, even though Twilight didn’t technically break any laws, a lot of nobles are pretty pissed off, so Celestia needs to be seen to at least be making an effort to punish Twilight to mollify them. But she makes it clear to Twilight that this has nothing to do with her and that Celestia still cares for her.
Boom, there, humanize Celestia, create character growth between them, fix up a bunch of plot/logic holes and it doesn’t affect the story much since the public still thinks she’s being punished.
*takes a big breath*
Wow I had a lot more to say about that than I thought.
Anyway, hope you don’t take any of this too personally (trust me, I’ve had that happen).
As I said, I was genuinely enjoying the hell out of this story until that chapter, and I am still reading this, if a bit apprehensive for Celestia’s eventual return.
Anyway, look forward to your reply.
5923677
Hmmm... I had intended to make it so that it could be inferred that all those incidents in no way directly implicated Honey, but also that it was others who fell on their own swords, especially where Twilight was concerned. I guess I was a bit too circumspect. Twilight never really tried that hard to go to the authorities, as she was too intimidated, what with her tormentors being 4+ years older than her. This was also a case where Honey's reputation worked against any snitches, because everyone saw her as unassailable, essentially making her so in a self-fulfilling way.
The bullying Twilight endured was far less physical and more simple intimidation, so Twilight was afraid of escalating it by going to the teachers. The worst physical abuse she suffered was some shoving, tripping, and tipping her books from her arms sort of thing, and that was pretty rare, because Honey knew she was walking a fine line with Twilight. Now, I know what you're thinking. Yes, emotional bullying can be just as terrible as physical, but Honey being a political creature, knew how to use all those tactics quite well. I even named her to show that she could talk her way out of almost anything (her special talent). Combine that with only circumstantial (at best) evidence, and you have a very slippery individual.
Could you point me toward a passage that implied that? I don't remember anything like that off hand.
That's why I was hesitant to include the subplot at all, and was kicking myself for doing it anyway later. It's a very sensitive subject, one that hits a very strong chord with some people. I try my best to treat the subject with the respect it deserves, but I'm only human, and my intent doesn't always come across like I hope. That being said, I of course would not say that to them. It is incumbent on the parents, teachers, and authority figures to notice these things as well, but there are times when no signs nor evidence is plain, leaving them with nothing to go on. Such is the case with Honey and Twilight. Also, every case of bullying is different with different circumstances and factors. What would work in one case would not necessarily help in another, but to quote Mad-Eye Moody, you can't go wrong with "Constant Vigilance".
Bringing it to Celestia's attention would allow her to bring the attention of a more dedicated investigative force into the matter. Perhaps a private detective, or even temporarily assigning someone to take over Plain Sight's position to allow her to more fully investigate the goings on in Honey's life. There are a number of behind-the-scenes, but still perfectly legal things she could have done.
As for the rest of your comment, it was really hard for me to read. Not that you're a poor writer or anything, but it really pointed out to me why everyone was so upset about the punishment altogether, which hurt. I honestly thought I was doing well until now. Looks like I have some more growing as a writer to do. If you don't mind, I think I will use your suggestion about Celestia's reasoning, and take this as proof that I really need to think before using a subplot like this.
That was hilarious. But poor Twilight I know there is no sad tag so I still have hope the ship will happen I just wish Twilight wouldn't have to go through so much to get there. In the end I think it will be a Twi x Octi x Vinyl ship and I know you can do it well Just look at "The Sorceress, Teacher, and the Wonderbolt" so I look forward to it I WANT MOAR SOON! If that is alright with you.
5926966
I'm fine with you using my suggestion. That's why I suggested it :P
And what's important is that you can recognise problems in your works and address them. That already makes you better than 95% of all writers.
also
It was more implied. If Honeyed Words was so eager to physically abuse Twilight for her actions here, then it stands to reason that she would have done the same if Twilight had ever gone directly to the teachers to get Honeyed in trouble. Otherwise, what makes this particular instance above all others worthy of taking the risk and physically attacking Twilight?
Wow, when your characters are having a bad day, they're having a bad day.
And when you write an accident, you make sure it's one heck of an accident.
The scenarios made me cringe, put me on the edge of my seat, and made me laugh. I never thought a tragic vehicular pile-up could be so hilarious!
And the appearance of Cadance? Man, I'm eager to see how the best foalsitter in the world is gonna help her poor little Twily.