I'm a fairly new member to this site, and can't help but to have noticed this group. I think it's a great idea to have a review group like this, and a shame it was shut down. So, long story short, why not rebuild a group similar to this one but with changes to make it less of a hassle to manage? I know there was a new group made, but it's fallen deathly silent from what I've seen (last post was in September) I'd be sure to keep all admins posting at least once a week and would notify everyone about a hiatus or a temporary time period where the admins would not be active in the group.

I don't know if I'm just wasting my time even thinking of restarting something like this, but why not ask you all for your opinions? Have any ideas, thoughts? Please let me know, I'd like for a review group similar to this one to be up and running!

4789834 I'd love to see another Twilight's Library. A massive compendium of reviews and stories is a great way for people to see a lot of new stuff that doesn't get boosted to featured by the algorithm.

4789851 I fully agree!

Would you have any advice on how to start this? Right now I'm in the process of, well, working out how to kick this off.

4789834 I would love to see this come into action but sadly don't know how, let me know if you do manage to get a group similar to this one started I'd be happy to join.

4789851 Also, I heard of a review group that uses gems. Maybe we could incorporate their system into this new group.

4789851
4789855
4789861

Go poke these guys to get back to work.

~Skeeter The Lurker

4789861 I'm thinking of combining this group and 'Them Gem Hunters' ways together somehow to make an even better review group than the both of them, if I can do it right. Have any thoughts, at least?

4789855

The first thing I would do is post this on the Shameless Self-Promotion Bureau. If you're not already in that group, then join it. A lot of people are on it and would at least see your message.

4789869 I'm not sure how much help I will be unfortunately. I'll support it and add some when I can, but I'm super busy ATM.

4789875 That's perfectly fine. Could I maybe bounce ideas of you, at least?
4789870 Is that okay with the group's rules? I don't know about advertising posts... (I've joined in within these past two weeks and have a basic grasp of how it works)

4789834

You may want to look at the Goodfic Bin. They're still running, last I looked.

4789880
The Shameless Self-Promotion Bureau would be more for once you actually have a group, and are trying to get people to join. It's not really where to go to ask for help.

--arcum42

4789884 Alright, thanks for the clarification. Also, the Goodfic Bin looks on the verge of dying to me. Either way, I'd like to start something similar to this group and possible The Gem Hunters.

As a general note on this idea too, maybe have it where people who had stories submitted during the previous folder opening can't submit stories for the next one? We could make an archive for each one of the people who had stories submitted.

4789889 I posted an idea above this comment.

Edit: Also, since the idea is to find hidden 'gems' of stories without many views and bring them to the light (at least I think that's the idea) maybe have it where people with over 500 followers can't have stories submitted for them?

4789865
I've been adding stories to my folder in that group since the group began. There's not a whole lot of activity that you'd notice if you weren't watching the folders, though, unless I missed something.

4789906 I didn't even know this place existed. I definitely want to get in on that. It looks excellent!

4789880 Sure thing, PM me whenever. I'm here a lot.

4789891

The problem there is implementing things like that. It's hard enough watching for the right number of stories and who submitted them while massive amounts of people are adding things to a folder.

You may want to read this blog post for perspective on why big groups like this fail.

Oh, and while Tag-a-long's Book Club may be slow, you may want to take a look at the rules for the group. If I had reopened Twilight's Library, it would have been with rules pretty similar to those.

--arcum42

4789948 Wow, that's an insane amount of reading. What if the group was a massive group consisting of smaller ones. Each of those groups had their own dedicated reviewers and worked on their own specialty. That may break down the workload while keeping a singular title.

Edit: Alternatively, there needs to be a system where submissions and reviews are balanced. Why not a 'seeker' group of readers who look through the new queue and submit their ideas to the reviewers. Might be easy to sift through the insanity to find the diamonds in the rough.

4789973

Well, the idea I personally had was that you use a thread rather then a folder for submissions, and the reviewers only review the ones they want to review. Any system where you feel obligated to review things because someone submitted them is going to lead to burnout, and having seekers just shifts some of that to them. That's somewhat what we used to do with contributors in Twilight's Library, in any case.

My other idea was that the members of the site upvote the ones they think are good in the thread of submissions, and that's used to choose reviews.

One thing to watch, too, is that some of these ideas are fine when you are a small group and get worse and worse as the group grows. You also tend to end up in a situation where one or two reviewers are doing most of the reviewing...

As far as a massive group and smaller satellite groups, it sounds like coordination could be an issue, and I'm not sure where all the admins necessary to run it would come from.

--arcum42

4789948 Well, it may be difficult, but I'm hoping to come up with some sort of system that could work to prevent situations like that. 4789973's idea could work.

4790022
4790015

Systems only go so far. What we need is scalability from a dozen to ten thousand. IIRC, authors helping authors works by having other authors review the work instead of a list of reviewers.

4789834

I'd be sure to keep all admins posting at least once a week

And how, exactly, would you propose to do that? It's not as if "FIMFiction group admin" is a paying job...

4790068 Same way open source projects stay afloat: find people willing to do it. I've written a crap ton of stuff in my off time and I'm not getting paid for it. Some people may be willing to sacrifice some time if the idea is good enough.

4790076

That was one of the problems we had, actually. People were doing large amounts of reviewing, not getting paid for it, not getting much appreciation from the members, and getting lots of flack for failing fanfics the authors people thought should have gotten in and vice versa.

People will put up with it... for a while. Eventually they'll leave.

And I've worked on stuff myself without pay, totally outside of here. I was picking what I wanted to work on, and I wasn't handed a list of stuff to do, more then half of which I didn't want to look at.

The thing is, all the stories have to be looked at, even the bad ones, in a submission queue. HiE after HiE fic, Nyx sequels, badly written self inserts, thing that drone on and on for 83 chapters...

--arcum42

4790076
Twilight's Library had people willing to spend time on it. I should know; I was one of them.

But here's the flaw in your analogy: the "open source" part of it is the people submitting stories, not the people sorting them. Just like an open source programming project is open to anyone who can do a little coding, anybody on this site can add stories to folders. Just like the people in charge of the programming project will keep and reject code based on what's useful, there are people who decide what stories do and don't belong in a curated collection on this site.

The problem is that writing fiction isn't like coding. You can't just run tests on it to see if it works. You have to actually read it, and judge it, and make sure it meets certain criteria. That isn't always a simple task, nor is it always a quick one. "But wait!" someone might respond. "Why not just bring on more approvers? Why not just add more admins to the group?" Because not everybody is capable of or even interested in following the group's criteria. And some people would love to see the group continue, but have no interest in stepping up and lending a hand. And as the group gets more and more popular, the admins that you do have find themselves getting overwhelmed... which is what happened to us here.

Oh, I'm sure that in theory it could work out, maybe, but generally you're going to find the situation moving in one of two directions: either the people willing and able to uphold the standards find themselves buried under a mountain of stories to examine and burn out, or standards are loosened over time to the point where you might as well not have any at all.

Guys, this isn't an argument about this group's closing. I'm just brainstorming ideas to make a better version of it.

4790104 Yeah. The sheer volume of literature on this website is a whole lot to sift through. On top of that, people are still people with lives outside of this fandom. The question is: how do you strike that fine balance between submissions and reviews. Have you ever run across something that has worked well?

Also, I want to thank you for the work you've put in. I've seen you around before and you seem to run a bunch of review groups and do reviews yourself.

4790120

4790109 could probably answer that better then me, since he's been an admin in both.

--arcum42

4790109 Yeah, that is definitely on point. My idea works assuming we have a group of people willing to do reviews. There are people who are willing to put up with that work, but I fear they are few and far between. Reviewers are definitely a rare breed. And my analogy did break down, thanks for pointing that out.

4790131 yup, this is just spitballing at this point. Any way to keep a self sustaining review group would be an awesome plus for all of us.

4790120 4790147
There's a huge difference in how they operate.

Twilight's Library was about evaluating everything that came in. Our mission was to get every submitted story read, and either sort it into appropriate folders, or reject it and provide valid reasons why in the appropriate thread. Rage Reviews is about reading and reviewing what the reviewers want to tackle, when they want to do it. People who would like one of their stories reviewed can add it to the request folder, but there's no guarantee that it will get reviewed any time soon, or ever.

4790157
Sorry for sounding like such a downer, but I've seen a number of ambitious groups break down because they just couldn't keep up.

4790182 No offense taken. It's all about scalability, and models for small groups seem to break down pretty fast as soon as you start focusing on the main idea of 'review everything'. You'd need a tireless army to read all the fics posted here.

I think the main problem is that bronies are just too creative.

On a serious note, the only way I've seen someone create a self sustaining group was by having every author review every author that reviewed him.

4790133

Honestly, best I've come up with so far was the system in Tag-a-long's Book Club. One of the reason's things are so slow there is a lot of the admins and contributors were from Twilight's Library originally, and were already burnt out.

Unfortunately, basically every setup I've seen with open submissions has totally self-destructed at some point. That's one reason why I try to step in and give advice when I see people talking about another one. I was hoping the Gem Hunters would do better, way back when, really, but that didn't work out.

And thanks. Shutting down Twilight's Library hurt, really, since it was mine, and I put a lot of work into it for a long time. You have to know when to call it quits, though.

I do still act as an admin in dozens of places around the site. Trouble is that it leaves me not really trying to drive any of the places I'm and admin forward and breathe more life into them, but rather just stepping in any time I'm needed...

--arcum42

4790215 A man without a home. Sorry man, I feel for you. Twilight's library was awesome, I was super sad to see it go. I can't imagine how you feel after shutting it down. Thanks for jumping in this thread, you've obviously got a wealth of knowledge in the subject of reviewing groups.

How exactly does Tag-a-long's Book Club work?

4790235

Well, the forum section of it is fairly dead at the moment, and actual things being put in the folder is sporadic, but here's the theory.

First, there is no incoming folder. You have a bunch of people designated as story scouts. They go out, find good fanfiction, and put it into the folders, including a folder specifically of things they've added.

There, are, however, two threads that have a form in the first post, one for recommending your own stories, and one for other peoples. You just post in the correct thread with the form filled out, linking to the story, describing it, saying why it should be in the group, etc. You are limited to one story a post, because anyone going through the thread can upvote posts for stories they like and downvote ones they don't. The theory is that highly rated posts will attract attention from the scouts, though they are under no obligation to read anything.

There aren't actually acceptance or rejection posts. Stories are just added in, and a ribbon put in the comments of their story.

There is a thread where people can discuss things they liked about stories, though, and story scouts can go on about things they really liked.

It was an interesting idea, with some parallels to Seattle's Angels, though more informal. I was pretty burnt out when I created it. I came up with everything above as the new system I was going to switch Twilight's Library to, originally, when the whole thing broke down. I eventually decided it was better as its own thing...

No problem on jumping in. I'm always willing to kibitz on these things, even if I'm not interested in actually getting involved in a new group of this sort.

--arcum42

4790235
No submissions allowed. They have story scouts who will add your story to their group folders if they happen to come across it and decide it's really good. Essentially, there's no other way than for your story to be in the right place at the right time, so it can be seen by the right person.

This system puts far less pressure on the contributors, as they are only reading what looks interesting to them. And since they are largely made up of people who used to run this group, you can bet that they have very similar standards.

edit: I see arcum already beat me to it. What he said.

4790257 If you need any help with anything, feel free to PM me. Not that I would be good at anything beyond writing and some art stuff, but I'd be willing to try lots of stuff.

Edit: That seems like a really fascinating idea. What is the average intake rate for the group?

4790273

I'm not totally sure. It's a great idea, but I probably needed rather more active readers then I have. The trouble is that I am not reading nearly as much fanfiction as I used to, and I suspect a number of my scouts aren't any more, either. I really should go over and wake things up a bit, maybe add a few scouts and see if a few are still interested...

I think the idea is sound. A lot of it is that half my staff were ex-Twilight's Library people that don't really have the energy any more, including me.

--arcum42

4790376 I'm not the most educated in the matter, but I definitely think you should fan the flames for that group. I really like the idea of 'luck is your guide' in terms of the scouts. I wish you the best! I'll try to start frequenting there. Maybe some activity in the threads would help too.

4789869 well though the comments would be on the chapters them selves... ...perhaps several threads focused on the discussion of a stories chapter, similar to what book clubs tend to do. so far I have not seen anything like that on this site, I've seen discussions about episodes and some that help writers improve them selves, but so far not one where the readers and critics come together to discuss the possible ideology, theology, or even what the meaning behind the chapter could mean; or what a chapter could even mean to them selves as individuals.
not sure if I'm explaining it too well but this is the only idea and/or suggestion I have.

4789865 should I add my story to their list or just say hi to them?

Not trying to slam you or discourage you from starting, but if you're serious about this, you'll need to put in some research and come up with a very solid plan. Your biggest enemies are reviewer burnout and group scalability, as these have caused a number of groups to struggle or even close. It would behoove you to research and to learn from these other groups past and present, so that you can avoid making the same mistakes.

+ Self-promotion becomes quickly unsustainable and I advise against allowing it. You'll need to spend time reviewing every single fic that anyone feels like submitting, and frequently you will have to argue with the author why you do not wish to include it in your group. It's very easy for authors to feel that membership is a right rather than a perk. If the group selects its own stories and prohibits self-promotion, you can peruse fics at your own pace. Allowing readers to promote other authors' stories is fine.

Also, since the idea is to find hidden 'gems' of stories without many views and bring them to the light (at least I think that's the idea) maybe have it where people with over 500 followers can't have stories submitted for them?

+ I don't have any recent stats on me, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't remove many authors from the eligibility pool. You'll have many many authors with < 20 followers looking to make their big break.
+ What are your criteria for fic selection? Too vague, and your different reviewers will have a wildly varying opinion of what is acceptable for the group. Too stringent, and your reviewers will be slowed down significantly as they fill out some complex grading rubric for each fic they read.
+ What sets your review group apart from other currently-existing review groups? A unique knack can be helpful to draw attention to yourself, though it's not required?
+ Who precisely is your target audience? What are you trying to tell your audience? If you recommend a story, what should the audience assume about this story?
+ How often is your group posting new fics? Is it just "whenever" or are you going to adhere to a schedule?
+ What happens if you fall behind schedule, and/or if there's been a few weeks without any updates from the group? Hint: pressuring people to pick up more of the slack is a surefire way to make the reviewers feel underappreciated and lead to burnout.

You'll want to figure out some of the answers here before proceeding. It's really noble to want to get out there and create this new improvement to the Fimfic community, but if your eyes are bigger than your stomach, you're going to have a bad time.

4789884 4789834 The Goodfic Bin is still running, still reviewing, always looking for talented reviewers, and still eating up way more of my time than it should.

We tweaked the submissions guideline initially copied from here to something that does it's best to slice out most of the stories that don't have much of a chance to be worth checking out, and I'm typically very flexible with the approvers we have (most of whom are awesome anyhow), meaning we've managed to keep afloat for almost a year now, and have reviewed hundreds of stories.

I'd attribute the success we've had so far (hoping that it holds out) to a significant level of stubbornness, and some talented reviewers generous enough to lend us their time.

As far as I know, it's the only library group with semi-open submissions (as in, submissions are open, but screened) that's survived past 400 members (we're currently approaching 800), and for the number of stories we get through, we're the biggest of our type at present, and I dare-say, the coolest. We've got reviewers of all stripes with us, from relatively untested but reliable looking blokes, a Twilight's Library vet, beer-obsessed Scottish students, and others.