Like the terms "corporate propaganda", "commercialist", "Alt-Right", "troll", "racist", "cuck", "Feminist", "SJW", and "pretentious", "Mary Sue" is one of those terms that's often heavily spammed by people who don't even know what the Hell it means.

For starters, a Mary Sue is not a character who has talents. It's really almost embarrassing how so many characters in fanfiction are good at nothing because they are trying to avoid making Mary Sues, which results in characters who are cheaper by the dozen, because now they are ALL talentless.

A Mary Sue is also not a perfectly moral character. It's actually almost embarrassing how so many characters in fanfiction are unlikeable assholes who never have to learn from the consequences of their mistakes and never grow as people just to avoid being Mary Sues, and again, as a result, more and more fanfic characters are becoming samey and dime-a-dozen.

A Mary Sue is basically wish-fulfillment. Mary Sues are the most irritating type of author insertation possible. Mary Sues will:
1. Be good at every single thing needed for the story. Everything. They can't have distributed talents with fellow characters.
2. Always do the right thing not because of a moral code they reluctantly follow, but because that's just what they'll do!
3. Often have underdeveloped backstories that hardly justify anything about them.
4. Have a lot of the same flaws as the author probably does, but they never get called out for their flaws, because that's just who they are!
5. Overcome obstacles without any difficulty whatsoever; any external conflict is overcome easily.

Just remember this and you should be good. You can make a really morally upstanding character like Picard, it's fine, just provide internal conflict, just like Picard. You can make a highly powerful character like Superman, it's fine, just make the villains just as powerful and/or have him rely on the help of other characters, just like Superman.

6041878
Don't forget about the immediate harems without any plot development!

This is really useful to me. The problem I have is coming up with flaws that aren't mine and coming up with a realistic moral code.

6041878
Thank you for this. I had put a link on the main page for "Mary Sue" but I think I'll just pin this instead.
6041912
*Cough*SwordArtOnline*Cough*
6041928
There are two ways to do this. Either write yourself as a character but do not revolve plot around your character, or write characters as based on other people you may know, or characters you have seen. The OC adoption group here on FiMFiction is a great place to look for characters and inspiration if you have none.

6041878

2. Always do the right thing not because of a moral code they reluctantly follow, but because that's just what they'll do!

So if a character always does right, they get called out on it, but that's just who they are. Wanting to do the right thing?

What if they want to do the right thing, but they have to do something that many would say is wrong to do it.

Most of the time, whenever I create OCs, they tend to have a power that just negates almost literally everything, namely shadow and darkness magic. It literally negates every power thrown at it, so I tend to push its limits very far. However, because I get tired of someone who's only skimming the story calling my character out for being 'overpowered', I tend to keep my OCs as background characters unless they're literal character inserts. Well, even the author inserts tend to be kept to the background, but that's because usually, I'm not writing the fanfiction about them in the first place. I just get irritable with it (because it's not like that same Joe isn't going to watch some Shounen that does the exact same thing), so I only have my character step in when absolutely necessary and the protagonists just can't win without backup. Otherwise, they're the apathetic snark because... I'm an apathetic snark and my OCs reflect that sometimes.

6041912
That's actually the main thing I classify a Mary Sue as. The main protag or author's fave character falls in love with them without any buildup, no subplot, nothing, just, bam, in love. And the harem thing just tends to piss me off in general when it happens to even well-developed OCs.

6042140
I'm an admin on that group. Who knew it would be so handy?

6041928
The flaws being your own aren't the main problem. The problem would be if your character never got called out for said flaws, and never overcoming them or failing because of them. And just having a moral code, realistic or not, is enough to prevent a Sue, because with Mary Sue stories, the morality is so skewed in favor of the Sue morality is rarely brought up, the Sue just does what's right because the Sue enjoys it, there is no internal conflict.

6042158
I don't understand your first question. Maybe my statement above will help you though.

As for your second question, that's not that Suish at all, so that's fine. It implies a type of turmoil.

6042192
I think I get you.... Wait a second that means my second redesign of my character was fin then! GOD DAMMIT! People telling me my characters are Sues and I'm a narcissist!

6041878
This is missing the point. Strengths and flaws don't matter. They're not what make a Mary Sue, they're just incidental symptoms, and treating only the symptoms doesn't treat the cause. Making your characters balanced such that conflict is meaningful rather than trivialized is good general character-building advice, but ultimately has nothing to do with Mary Sue.

The Mary Sue character is measured by one simple thing: your reason for writing the story. If you're interested in writing about your character and writing a story is just the means to that end, then you're writing a Mary Sue. On the other hoof, if you're primarily interested in actually writing a story and the characters you create are designed to be the characters that the story needs, you're probably not.

6041878
Many people wouldn't really know a Mary Sue/Garry Stu if it bit them.

Some people who have reviewed it think a certain character in my story, "A Pop Star, a Princess, and a Prisoner" is classed as that. It's true there is a Mary Sue/Garry Stu in the story, but the problem is they were looking at the wrong character. They say that the character in the story, Abacus Sum is a Mary Sue/Garry Stu, but the Mary Sue was actually was his wife, Tiger Lily.

People also unjustly say my OC, Raid Raptor is a Mary Sue/Garry Stu, and it all because he's an alicorn OC.

Ok, for the sake of clarity will try to set the points that define a Mary Sue in more common terms:
A Mary Sue is basically wish-fulfillment. Mary Sues are the most irritating type of author insertion possible. Mary Sues will:
Yes, a Mary Sue is often how the Author would enter an universe... and be completely perfect while on that universe, unlike how they are in their own ...
1. Be good at every single thing needed for the story. Everything. They can't have distributed talents with fellow characters.
They will be able to do everything needed to keep the plot moving, they will be the only ones able to solve problems, often with particular ease...For example, in a Mary Sue Centric Retelling of, let's say that one episode Twilight got her wings, Twilight would never find out the reason for the change of cutie marks until the Mary Sue pretty much spelled it to her, and the Mary Sue would have the solutions to have the balance restored and do them him or herself...

2. Always do the right thing not because of a moral code they reluctantly follow, but because that's just what they'll do!
Everyone is the hero of their own story, in the Mary Sue's case is more evident, they will always do what is expected to get the plot moving, like beating Chrysallys on the wedding themselves.

3. Often have underdeveloped backstories that hardly justify anything about them.
There's no need for Backstories on their fics, they just are there so the author can feel he/she saved the day / got the waifu or husbando, etc.

4. Have a lot of the same flaws as the author probably does, but they never get called out for their flaws, because that's just who they are!
have the flaws they share with our universe's counterparts become personality traits, completely acceptable, even bending social norms...

5. Overcome obstacles without any difficulty whatsoever; any external conflict is overcome easily.
there are no problems on their universes, as they will always have the power or tool required to save the day, and will do it in the nick of time too...

6042140

Oh, I did forget / didn't know there was an OC adoption group... there's a story I've been wanting to write, but I literally don't know how to create OC's

6042227
That is called a character study story. The real difference is you actually liking the individual you created, or you using them as a means to entertain an audience.

Power Fantasy characters like the Original Dante from the original Devil May Cry Games are good because he is everyones power fantasy instead of just being the creators personal Power Fantasy.

6041878
I always thought Tirek from the Season 4 finale fell into this category because he just couldn't be stopped until the very end. No matter what anyone did, he just seemed frigging invincible. He could hold someone steady and then drain their powers just like that. Not even a fair fight. Twilight was only lucky as hell to get an actual fight with this guy and even then, he still stole her powers in the end. Just like the Season 2 finale, pure fucking luck saved everyone's hides in the end, which in all likelihood means that the "Batman Gambit" trope was the thing that saved everyone.

Also, I have yet to read "The Lost Element", but I have heard on TV Tropes and such that the main character is pretty much an author insertion who gets into inter-species relationships and yet somehow the story gets praise for being the longest ongoing story ever written. Can author insertions be done the right way, though? I'm curious if that's even possible.

6042427
First of all, Tirek is not a Mary Sue because he's not the protagonist nor is he an author's wish fulfillment, plus he gets stopped in the end by a character just as powerful as himself. Tirek was only so powerful to raise the stakes as a threat to Twilight Sparkle; perhaps the writers went overboard at this, but he's not a Sue.

Tirek would be a Mary Sue if it was the same story as it was, except Tirek is the protagonist, but he's still draining ponies, and the author does not treat any of this as a bad thing, like one would do with a villainous protagonist such as the main in Lolita, but rather unironically asserts that the ponies really deserved it, and that in the end, Tirek beats all of those "evil" ponies without a shred of difficulty.

As you probably well know, Mary Sues are often not perfect characters at all. Mary Sues are often depraved bastards whom the author either assures us are noble heroes because the author is too concerned with being "badass" without knowing what "badass" actually means*, or because the franchise the author is screwing with is filled with characters that annoy him and he is addressing it incorrectly, or because the author has some kind of Cluster B personality disorder and has a "me-centric" morality, or the author knows the character is horrible, but the author will not change the character because the author is afraid that giving a character any redeeming qualities might turn him into a Sue.

*For the record, "badass" does not mean to just kill 'em all because "I AM JUSTICE!!" Badass means to do really impressive, hardcore things after intense sacrifice, like Hellboy. Hellboy is a really nice guy, he loves kittens, but he's badass because he does the most amazing things against the most overhwhelming odds after making the most hardcore sacrifices. Mary Sues are never truly badass like Hellboy. Mary Sues don't sacrifice shit, and the odds never overwhelm a Sue. No Mary Sue is like Hellboy. Mary Sues are only an ersatz badass. Most Mary Sues are kind of like "imagine if somebody tried to justify everything Tirek did, and Tirek won in the end."

And yes, author insertations can be done correctly. Just don't make anything too easy for the insertation. For example, Mary Sues aren't OCs who get it on with a canon character after buildup or a conflict that may not even relate to the romance, Mary Sues are OCs who get it on with all of the canon characters without so much as a struggle. Mary Sues get overnight harems.

6042450
Oh, so only protagonists get to be Mary Sues? Never villains?

6042454
Pretty much, because we all know what happens to villains: They either get beaten in the end, or if the hero is allowed to fail, it will be justly treated as a bad thing. Or the villain is not really evil so much as a force of nature. If none of these things were the case, I suppose antagonists could be Sue-ish, but that is a whole other can of worms.

6042460

I suppose antagonists could be Sue-ish, but that is a whole other can of worms.

And I still stand strong that Tirek falls into this category. I was extremely disappointed with how he was written, being nigh invincible until he was beaten by sheer dumb luck... and not killed off. The original Tirek was written a whole lot better and he didn't get a lot of screen time where he could prove that he was either invincible or not. There was only that fight scene in the end and both good and evil were pretty much evenly matched as everyone was trying to separate him from his Rainbow of Darkness. And when Tirek was overpowered by the Rainbow of Light, he's killed off. Not to mention G4 Tirek acted like Equestria's magic belonged to him by right when it was clearly established he and Scorpan came from another land to do conquest. Honestly, just listening to Tirek from "Twilight's Kingdom" just sounds like listening to that ear-bleeding Brainiac from DC Universe Online. Can't stand them both.

6042481
I still don't think that Tirek was a Sue; OP, maybe, but not a Sue. This is for multiple reasons, but the most obvious reason being that Sues are often meant to good guys, but at the same time often do things that moral philosophers would conclude to be objectively dastardly, because they unintentionally reflect the author's insecurities, or are ironically written to not be Mary Sues, which proves that even writing can be victim to overthinking. Tirek is treated as flat-out evil and narcissistic, the story makes no qualms about admitting this.

6042481
Here is what it would be like if Tirek was a Sue:

Rainbow Dash felt bad that her friends humiliated her in their Mare Do-Well identity, but she had a secret lover! His name was Tirek, and when he heard that his beloved was so hurt, he knew it was time to take his revenge! So Tirek escaped Tartarus and began to drain all of those mean ponies until they died! But it was okay that he was killing them all, because they totally deserved it! Eventually, he faced against Celestia herself, whom will largely speak in Donald Trump quotes because the author does not like Donald Trump and wants to personify him as a villain while also killing said villain. After murdering Celestia, Rainbow thanks Tirek and gives him lots of hugs and kisses. He then claims her and all of her friends as sex slaves, implying that he raped them all except for Dash, but that's okay because they totally deserved it! And everybody lives happily ever after under Tirek's rule!!

See, this is what a Mary Sue is. He is author wish fulfillment, who rushes to protect his waifu, he overcomes the obstacles without any difficulty, gets all of the girls without any buildup, and by God does he do evil things, but the author writes all off as "they deserved it!"

There are plenty of good OCXCanon stories; in fact, those are probably the best for MLP because frankly it's hard to ship any decent males with the mares without it being fraternization or incest, and most of the mares are clearly hetero, so obviously...but Mary Sues aren't just OCs who get it on with canon characters. No, they do it easily and they do it with all of them, and the ship will be the only focus of the story, no additional conflict.

There are plenty of good stories about powerful characters; in fact, given the vast number of supernatural characters in Equestria, it's probably for the best that your character is good at something. But not only are Mary Sues good at everything, their backstories seldom justify their abilities and they face antagonists who aren't nearly as capable as they are. Superman and Batman are capable of numerous things, but their backstories serve to explain everything and they tend to take on threats on-par with their own abilities and sometimes need outside help.

6042787
Tirek raped Dash's friends? That's just turning him into Trigon from DC Comics! Yeah, Trigon went around banging different women just to get his seven children.