Patreon Blog Takeover: Four-Color Ponies: Comics & The Concept Of Superheroes/powers In The Continuum (Devas) · 12:20am Apr 26th, 2017
And I quote(-box):
I'm at the relevant Patreon level, and the topic I'd like for you to discuss on the blog is...
Superpowers.
Either as a concept in-Equestria (wow, Masked Matter-Horn of the Power Ponies sure sounds like a "simple" unicorn who boosted their talent in rays and beams to an unprecedented degree. How does the concept of superpowers apply to a society where everyone has a tiny super power stamped on their butt?) (how many times did the Mane Six have to turn down a royalty check from a publishing house who wanted to make a cross-over event into real life?).
I'm going to do this as a triple-topic, and I'm going to start it with something that Devas didn't directly inquire about -- but it's also something I feel is relevant to the discussion, and it'll lead into the actual topic. Just be warned that it's another point of divergence for the 'verse as an AU: I know about the Power Ponies, and this is partially a talk about why you won't see that episode adapted here.
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The concept of the comic book originated in Equestria. But it took a long time to manifest, and it didn't arrive via the standard route.
In some ways, sequential art has been around for a long time. Those who couldn't make themselves understood to the strangers of other races in words or found that some barrier points had been isolated enough to effectively develop their own dialect would occasionally resort to drawing their explanations: here's what happened at this point in time, this is what happened next, and I'd appreciate it if you'd let me live long enough to reach something which isn't quite a final panel. In that sense, it's been used in small degrees for storytelling throughout most of recorded history, because it was a form of communication which anypony could potentially use -- at least, anypony who could roughly draw and was allowed to breathe long enough to get past the introduction.
However, once the Discordian Era ended, that method of spinning tales faded into the background, and then threatened to die out. It could be argued that it never completely went away: there were always artists who liked to work in a style which basically said Story Continued On Next Painting. But nopony (and no one) ever really did all that much with the form. It certainly wasn't put into publications: as printing advanced, illustrated stories became easier to produce -- but the idea of a story which was at least 90% illustration was a concept reserved for children's books, and only those aimed towards the youngest of foals. The concept of having such a thing as a mass-market storytelling method just hadn't occurred, and continued not to occur for centuries -- right up until the movies arrived.
A number of films start as books. But some books start as films, and have adaptations created which can be sold as novels. However, that takes work. And in the early days of the cinema, especially when those films were still silent, it occurred to an enterprising and rather cheap pony, who didn't feel like paying a writer to rework what was so obviously a perfectly suitable and already-purchased script, that there was a place for a new kind of book.
Printing wasn't quite at the stage where it could transfer photography (or film frames) over and over again on the cheap. But it was easy enough to project the image from a single frame onto a piece of paper, then trace...
So in Equestria, the first comics essentially started as rotoscoped photobooks: true graphic novels which could easily go on for a hundred pages if they were trying to adapt a multi-reeler. They were quick to make and weren't all that expensive: like the early movies, they started as black-and-white, and it took a little while before an enterprising studio tried out the higher cost of a rather primitive colorization. And since using up extra page space for the on-screen dialogue cards just interrupted the flow of story, the concept of the word balloon was quickly created.
Those adaptations were released onto the world, sold about as well as any movie-based novel does. And young ponies (among others) looked at this new-to-them form of storytelling, and began to wonder what else could be done with it...
Comics are a young industry in Equestria: one of the newest forms of art while remaining one of the oldest. But they haven't deviated all that much from their origin, and so they remain more towards graphic novels than anything else: a full story will be drawn out, then published as a single bound unit. For the most part, if the talent appears in a pony who manifests a related mark, it'll be for the whole package: write, pencil, ink, and letter. The concept of teams -- writers who can't draw working with artists who can't plot -- has just barely emerged, and generally appears among friends or the truly desperate, who go to the classifieds and beg for the appearance of their other half. It's also those trying to adapt to the medium or representatives from the other species who generally ask for the team-ups.
So as most such publications are truly graphic novels, what we would see as comics exist as serial novels: creators who publish one chapter at a time. Some of them are hoping to drive up demand by introducing readers on the cheap: why pay for an entire story which you might not like when you can just buy in on Chapter One and then decide if you want to pay for Chapter Two on? (Or optionally, if you wrote something horrible, then at least you made them pay once, and you can pick another pen name for the next effort.) And of course, there's any number of creators who only print Chapter One because they haven't figured out what's going to be in Chapter Two.
You'll also find chapbooks: tiny-bound or fold-out one-shot short stories, typically eight to twelve pages. They're fragile, cheap to print, and hard to charge more than two-tenths of a bit for.
There are a few publications which bundle chapters from multiple creators: more for your money, along with allowing several poverty-stricken creators to pool their funds and get things done. However, due to those financial restrictions, those works tend to be printed on cheap paper, and so the world has been introduced to the pulps.
As for other forms? Political cartoons are just starting to get their Equestrian grounding: they originated in Protocera, and Luna is generally unhappy with the local daily results. The other form of newspaper comics haven't really occurred to anyone yet: the idea of telling a story in that kind of ultra-short, daily-serial form is going to require a conceptual leap -- but when it does happen, they'll be in large print. Flipbooks are out there, but they're seen as children's toys.
And as for the ultimate comic: the animated film? It hasn't been done. In fact, short-form cartoons don't truly exist yet, and animation is in its absolute infancy. Part of this is because special effects are cheap. Animation in the human world allows someone to draw what could never be filmed. In Equestria and the nations beyond? Hire a pony who's good at illusion, film the results, and there's your F/X budget. When it comes to other things, any unicorn spell is going to just be glow around a horn when it hits the reel. But still... eventually, somepony might think of going for it. And finding backing might be a problem.
So that's the short form on where comics themselves stand. You're probably not going to find a specialty comic book shop or even a graphic novel store: those shelves have their space in standard book stalls. The Canterlot Archives are still trying to decide whether the format needs its own category or can just be kept with the individual story genres. Everything is still finding its place -- and that place is a very new one.
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The short form of the superhero in Equestria is this:
The idea -- and occasional reality -- of the costumed vigilante exists. Superheroes don't.
With ponies, the problem is signatures. Anypony using magic of any kind is going to leave behind the equivalent of a fingerprint, something unique to them. There are ways to distort a signature, but they're difficult to manage, beyond most of the population's capabilities, and can't always be done on the (sometimes literal) fly.
Over the centuries, there have been ponies who've decided to press the law between their own hooves, or who felt the legal system wasn't enough and they personally had to fill in the gaps. Ponies have donned masks, covered marks and coat and mane, gone out in the best disguises they could manage. But the ponies who lasted in that rather dubious profession were the ones who realized they had to abandon their magic -- because the instant they did anything, they were leaving themselves open to somepony who could come along, read their signature, and then start looking for the pony whose castings matched it.
As such, the more intelligent breed of pony vigilante tends towards a Scarlet Pimpernel model: you hide your identity, you get in there, and you fight with everything mundane you can bring to bear. However, this tends to complicate the work while shortening lifespan, because your opponents have no issues with using standard pony magic against you -- and so the most intelligent will throw in as much in the way of a utility belt as the local technology will let them get away with. Others carry devices, do their best to keep them charged (which may require a helpful unicorn who knows their secret), and knows such magic comes with a signature which isn't theirs: a well-equipped pony can kick spells and clockwork at the enemy for a surprisingly long time. (Note Twilight's library thieves in Sick Little Ponies: those carrying a lot of outside magic, staying in the shadows, can even create questions of just how many ponies are at work.) But any time you're relying on your own magic, you take the chance of giving your identity away -- and anypony going this route would have a lot to fear, with more than a few consequences possibly coming from real law enforcement.
If you're looking for a pony who freely uses their own magic without fear of discovery? Then you're probably looking for one who lives among the other species, in an area with no other ponies in the population -- which tends to either give their identity away or leave them hiding in caves for the duration. There's been a few, and they all discover that if they cause enough problems, someone will hire an outside expert in signature reading.
The pony vigilante working in an area which isn't trying to pull a practical joke of questionable spirit on a resident has to be careful. They're relying on technology which can be damaged, devices which might be experimental, they need a budget which can pay for all of it, and if they're lucky, they have access to somepony who's willing to treat wounds first and ask questions never: the rest either wind up trying to stitch their own wounds, get arrested in the hospital, or find a quiet place to bleed out. They don't tend to last long, and the majority ultimately give up the profession in a blaze of casting which both saves their lives and leads to the prison term or desperate escape from Equestria, never to return.
Somepony who just saved lives under the guise of a mask? That would likely be tolerated and possibly celebrated, although not without raising several questions. But crimefighters? Good luck. Especially when crime can more openly fight back.
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The concept of superpowers tends to be one of a tangle between species.
Some magic is considered to be impossible. Some spells are lost. In that sense, a power could be thought of as something which normally couldn't be done. But in terms of how the occupants of the world actually think...
In many ways, the superpower really doesn't exist in fiction. What you will get is the cross-species power swap. There are stories written about minotaurs who found themselves able to work unicorn magic (and at double efficiency: two horns!). You'll find fables about earth ponies who can fly, pegasi working with zebra magic, and griffons happily write stories about griffons who have all sorts of other-species abilities. (However, such griffon stories almost universally end in one of two ways: the character realizes that being a griffon is better than being anything else and goes back to their normal magic, or they foolishly rely too much on that foreign magic and die because being a griffon is better than being anything else.) It's not so much about the totally impossible ability as it is the thing which an individual can't racially do, exploring the possibilities and limitations which exist on the other side of the species barrier -- and not always well, because there's no guarantee the writer really understands the species whose magic they're borrowing.
Those real-world individuals who are especially strong? They're just especially strong, because field strength varies. Twilight will sometimes startle ponies with just how far up the chart she is -- but there's a chart, and she's within its bounds. There have been others in history on her level. Such strength is rare -- but it's existed before, and others will be born with it in time. And so characters with that power exist in some form of recognizable real.
There are stories about lost spells, or impossible magic. They tend to be filed under Horror, Adventure, Thaumic Fiction, or Tragedy. In that sense, you have all the 1920s roots which led to American comics -- but you don't have superheroes. The idea of 'If I had unique magic, I'd fight crime with it' hasn't really occurred, because magic produces signatures and signatures can be read. Those fictional characters with magic no others know either go fully public or drop into hiding. And in the real world, when a new spell emerges, it's just that: a new spell. Possibly others will be able to learn it, or it'll be so complicated, mark-tied, or both as to ultimately go into the shadowlands with its creator -- but it can be done, so it's just magic.
A power would be impossible magic. Something which not only doesn't exist, but couldn't and possibly shouldn't. It's why such stories often wind up under Horror. There are things sapients were never meant to cast, and writers make sure someone pays for the offense.
She might be considered to have a superpower. Something which never existed before. And in the Continuum, she is the horror.
(Kind of makes you wonder how some of the population truly reacted to the sisters' first public appearances, doesn't it?)
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So there's no spandex-equivalent publication universes for the Mane Cast to interact with on publisher request. Since the Elements were rediscovered, they've become part of stories: that's part of why there's so much disinformation out there, because with very few ponies knowing how they work, writers weave from whole cloth while knowing just about nopony can truly question their results. Fictional Bearers are generally created for such things, because why use real ponies who might complain about their portrayal? Or stories begin after the current Bearers fall, clearing the slate for the storyteller to work with that most precious of creations: their OCs.
There's very much a market for the true story. But nopony's written that down. Distortions? Lots, and some of it comes with newspaper headlines. The Bearers themselves have thought about clearing the record -- but there's only so much which can be told. As Rainbow's manuscript may prove, such information is dangerous.
Vigilantes exist in the Continuum. Adventurers are out there. But there are no superheroes. There's just ponies, zebras, minotaurs, griffons, buffalo, and all of the myriad menagerie, doing what they must, without the dubious benefit of overly-tight clothing and Magic Sapients Know Not.
It's a little scarier that way.
And for the writing record: I'm about 5k into the next Triptych chapter -- and I'm also catching a cold. The chapter is not at a natural break point, so I'm going to pause and finish it up tomorrow, probably adding two or three thousand more words onto it before hitting Publish. If I'm very lucky and feel better, I may do something else as well, and there's still a tiny chance to get five total things up before May hits -- but this has been a rough April. Still, I'll push if I can. And at the absolute minimum, I should be able to keep my promise and have this as a double-chapter month.
Long keyboard days ahead.
Golden Age comic books didn't use the term Super Hero. They were called Mystery Men. So, you're saying Pulp Heroes but not Super Heroes? Doc Savage or Bat Man but not Superman. Stories require "The willing suspension of disbelief" & that is too much disbelief to suspend
As to signatures, in your story Orange Is the New Blue they had the signature but not the pony. It's like fingerprints before computers. If you had a suspect you could confirm but without a database it was hard to find the right pony. Like with bullets in the USA. Also, signatures fade. Is their any way to record them? So others could look later, a Cold Case file.
If there's no way to record the signature, it basically comes down to the officer's word vs the suspect's word. EQ juries are probably inclined to trust the Guard but there could be abuses -Guards lying to convict those they (mistakenly) believe guilty. Juries also tend to be those who are too stupid to get out of jury duty.
I see newspapers serializing stories in a Sunday supplement, one chapter at a time. It's the way a lot of old time novels got published.
Oh yeah, you're assuming Illusions have enough physical reality to be filmed. If they are 100% mental & CAN'T be filmed, that's a game changer. Some early cartoons were filmed in black & white, then colored by artists. It depends on "How much does the labor cost to do that?" It's why 1960s animation sucks -it cost too much to do it right.
i seem to remember a story where a Changeling played super-hero...changelings, by their very nature, are exceptional at altering their magical signatures-at least in that story.
i think his career did end with an injury...
Fascinating, especially the impact of extant magic on fantasy. Restrictions breed creativity, and here the restrictions are very different than what they are for humans. Thus the focus is elsewhere, and reality intrudes in different ways. A lot of thought clearly went into this, and it's given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
One word about the signature problem: SHAZAM!
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Let's try to avoid describing experimental brain surgery as something heroic.
As with that story, you do get situations where you have the signature and need to match a pony to it. Still, it's a good place to start. And remember, most police detectives will have a mark for the work: that helps. A vigilante who insists on using their own magic on the night job may wind up in a place where they can't ever risk the most standard thaum burn during the day.
Permanent records of signatures via devices has yet to be mastered, at least when it comes to capturing the actual feel of the magic. It is possible to create an imprint: a visual interpretation of the caster's signature which serves as the rough equivalent to a spectrograph -- but the equipment is experimental, expensive, and still being "sold" to juries.
Pony illusions can be filmed: however, making them photorealistic requires a very talented caster in an environment where mastery of that spell category often comes down to "There's Luna and then there's everypony else." Still, there's a few out there who can do work good enough for cameras if you give them some time to plan.
Changeling illusions can't be filmed. (Remember, in the 'verse, that is a mental effect.) However, anyone in the changeling's range/thaum duration who's looking through the camera or checking the footage will see what the magic told them to. You need to get away from them and you need the effect to wear off. It means a changeling who wants a career as an actor will need to stick to stage productions -- and it'll take a powerful one to fool an entire audience.
Ah, sorry about the cold, Estee; good luck with it.
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ICR the name of the underground comic. The premise was that being turned into a Superhero drove you insane. That's why so many think they are aliens, mutants, gods, etc. I remember his description of Guess Who. "Believes he 'just knows' who is a bad guy. Believes his clothes are conspiring to kill him. Goes around town "shooting his web" at people he believes are trying to harm him." His saying was "It's my job to look for heroes. I haven't found one yet" Also wrapped barbed wire around his arm. (Martial Law? It's been 30 years, ICR)
19th century, bullet markings weren't legally admissible as evidence. There was no data base, you couldn't say for sure "only a Luger (for example) marks bullets like that" Teddy Roosevelt was Police Commissioner of NYC. One of his first acts as president was to start the FBI & build a data base so you could too say for sure.
So, you're saying magic signatures are like that? No data base & can't say for sure "It had to be him"
Well, not all super heroes keep their identity hidden (see most of the MCU) so do we have any equivalents to Iron Man? What about a Deadpool, a comedic character who exploits the fact that he's fictional? Surely Pinkie's abilities count as super powers due to how inexplicable they are. What about an Earth Pony who could "call upon the power of the Earth"? Or someone like Green Lantern, who requires a rare artefact to get their powers?
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, it is a perfectly interesting and logical way for the concept of super heroes to develop (or not develop) in Equestria. I'm just trying to come up with ways around those restrictions in case anypony gets inspired and wants to create one.
I'm already imagining some recursive nestled fiction: A unicorn magical scholar finds a magic ring that scrambles the signature of anyone wearing it, and they use it to spellsling against crime under mask with extreme prejudice.
Actually, that's probably how the Power Ponies could go in the 'Verse: A story about average ponies fighting crime using mystical artifacts as the source of their "powers" (Zapp has that lightning bolt necklace, the Masked Matterhorn had, well, a mask with a horn on it, etc.)
Hey Estee, a followup. Since it seems natural as a physical storytelling medium for them, do the Minotaurs have a lucha libre tradition? Luchadores generally aren't magical characters, but definitely larger than life and with a certain willing suspension of disbelief in the audience to allow the supernatural.
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Don't forget that in the Continuum earth ponies CAN call on the power of the earth, but there is this great conspiracy by the earth ponies to hide that from the other ponies. I don't want to imagine what would happen to a vigilante that would break the masquerade.
I loved this! :-)
It went in a very different direction from what I thought, which I appreciate a lot.
The discussion on comic history in Equestria was fascinating (and I liked how it coincidentally paralleled the comic history in Italy, where post-war poverty made comics made from films very popular for a time).
It's also interesting to think that, because of difference in what is and isn't possible, and simple culture clash, the most popular superhero-like figures are probably characters in the mold of Zorro, Batman, James Bond, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Rorschach, like you said, the Scarlet Pinpernel, and others.
It really gives a sense of how Equestria is very much a world in flux, and how the rise of Thaumic fiction might change things (leading to figures in the vein of Iron Man, Dr. Doom, DC Cyborg, Doc Ock, etc.)
Really fascinating stuff.
A thought occurs: Did the original Bearers ever have to resort to pictorial communication, and if so, how does that experience make the Sisters feel about comics? It's probably not as much of a trigger as, say, clearing a pasture, but I can imagine that it would lead to some mixed feelings. And given the novelty of this iteration of sequential art, Celestia may not have fully processed her reaction to it by the time of Luna's return.
At some point, I want to try and buy a blog that looks at something super-heroic (like the Iron Man Armor, or Batman's gadgets) and see how how they would work when mapped over the Continuum's magic system. I have less than a dollar in savings right now, but it'll come someday.
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That's a really good point. Shouldn't Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie technically count as Metahumans?
4510454 I was referring to in a comic book.
Why aren't the criminals equally worried about their signature being recognized?
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The creator of the comic might get lynched. Or buried alive. Ponies in general strike me as panic-y, and I'm not sure how many would be willing to let such a potential breach in security go. Especially if they got into a herd.
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Vigilantes generally don't go to the police and file complaints.
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If you are following Triptych then you know, the last few chapters especially Estee hinted just that. Last chapter especially, it was hinted that Dr. Gentle used a Chaos Gem to aid in their birth & it changed them. ICR specific heroes gaining them at birth but lab accidents are a common source of gaining powers. (the Flash & the Hulk among others)
I'd imagine they'd become popular in other countries first- Maybe a slightly racist griffon version of Captain America? Considering the amount of technology in Mazin, I'd bet that the Toku genre, or perhaps animation, would take off there.
4510454 Actually the main problem here is the conspiracy taking action if some earth pony decides to try this. Even with killing on the table, there are problems. First of all he knows he's doing something "wrong" so he's probably not doing near ponies, or at least earth ponies. Second if he's an especially strong voice you need at least two ponies to stop him, maybe more. But you can't explain why he's doing anything wrong, get the authorities involved, or anything else. Earth ponies are the only ones that won't see it as miraculous magic, and certainly no signature so you get no help. Even worse if he moves. Sure the other earth ponies know his signature, but if you can't catch him it doesn't matter how much they know. Charges can be invented, but then you get another problem, how many earth ponies can their be in the police, and how high can they possibly rise with the wrong types of mark. It wouldn't be easy, and it is likely to end badly, but how famous does the rogue superhero get before his own people catch him.
There is animation for instructional films -- that certainly wasn't recorded footage in "Hurricane Fluttershy" -- but it's very primitive relative even to to what I watched in my childhood. (Including things originally from before my childhood but which weren't destroyed, so I was given opportunity to watch.) Maybe they save the techniques for important uses and don't waste it on "frivolities".
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That, or a Ring of Gyges story.
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I could maybe see a racially motivated folk hero setup, since you'd need an earth pony to read earth pony echoes. The rule, remember, isn't "Don't use it", but "Don't get caught". Probably more pre than post unification, though.
Who is She? Or have I just not ran into her yet because I haven't read Tryptch, but will know her when I see her?
For movies, I'd recommend reading Pratchett's Moving Pictures, if you haven't yet.
Cheesy special effects are going to be a BIG problem for Action Genre movies, not so much for, say, Romance, or Comedy. A good special effects pony (The Great & Powerful Trixie?) can make more behind the camera than in front. IMO, tech limits mean Action movies are either big budget or flops. This could be where animation comes in. Do the effects on the cheap & pep them up with animators. Also, colorizing movies shot in black & white.
There were movies with sound tracks almost from the start. The problem was,
1) Cameras were hand cranked, so frame rate wasn't quite standardized. Even after camera motors were invented, having a hand cranked camera was a prestige item for directors.
2) They used records for the sound track.
This added up to: It was impossible to keep the sound track synchronized with the movie even if you timed the record's start perfectly.
Even after sound systems were invented, they weren't used for financial reasons. (Back inventory obsolete & easier/cheaper to dub in foreign languages + cost of converting thousands of theaters)
What about something more along the lines of a Lone Ranger-style figure? A lone hero bringing law where there is lawlessness? Seems like that sort of figure would get around the signature problem, since there aren’t any other lawkeepers to bring him in.