Trade Neighotiations · 4:00pm May 23rd, 2016
This is not my usual fully researched and cited post, but just an observation. Potentially an important one though.
Nowhere in the primary canon, Celestia is seen holding court, i.e. receiving petitioners in person. There are only a few instances of that I remember in secondary canon:
- In Micro-Series #10, Luna, when taking Celestia’s place, hears a dispute – more like Judge Judy judging a small claims case than anything else, really.(1)
- In Friends Forever #3, Celestia is seen using the throne room for daily business, namely, receiving “The Duke of Appleloosa,”(2) and then Spike, who drags her off on an adventure.
In general, even using that room at all is incredibly rare.
Yet in fanon, it pops up constantly. The scene seems to drift from work to work without significant changes – the Princess(3) receives petitioners in the throne room, and tries to judge them like Solomon, only to find their concerns petty or blatantly self-serving. The most common complaint seen in this situation is a pony already rich and of high status – often, noble status – petitioning for a tax break, or some other handout, and getting shot down. Not just “most common,” that’s over half of them, it’s a cliche in its own right.
Mind you, I don’t remember canon mentioning taxes at all, making the whole thing an issue of Aragorn’s pants.(4) The fragmentary statements on how Equestria’s government works tend to avoid the issue entirely – we might infer Equestria has taxes, because ponies give the impression of being a very communal culture, where social service should be a major concern, and they would need taxes to make that work,(5) but that’s all, really.
When Celestia is not receiving petitioners in person, she’s reviewing trade negotiations. Didn’t someone write a blog post decrying just that a few weeks ago? I can’t find it, alas. There are very few trade negotiations depicted in canon, too…
Where did this whole thing come from?
That is, why is this idea so pervasive, and why we tend to imagine Celestia doing that, even when we so obviously have no clue how it would actually play out?
(1) And we know from other fragmentary evidence that ponies do have a judical system – so you’d expect the Princess to at least have the function of a supreme court… What’s a small claims case doing in one?
(2) See my previous posts on the problem of nobility in Equestria…
(3) Whoever it is at the moment. The scene doesn’t seem to care whether this is Celestia, Luna, Twilight, Cadance or some alien creature taking their place and/or being present.
(4) The classic (in some circles) joke goes that nowhere in Lord of the Rings trilogy, Aragorn’s lower body wear is described. Boots might be mentioned once or twice, but not pants. Therefore, pants are not canon, and Aragorn never wore them. Since most civilizations in the era and region that Middle-Earth is patterned on knew pants well and wore them, while pants aren’t “hard canon,” it’s silly to doubt Aragorn wore some pants, which is why it’s a joke. But ponies don’t default to wearing pants, do they? Suddenly the question becomes a lot more serious…
(5) In fact, I can readily imagine ponies voting in universal basic income as soon as their economy can actually support that sort of thing.
I think in the first case, it's backwards engineering: we know Celestia has a throne room, which she seems to hang out in so that she can be interrupted by frantic guards. So what do royals do in a throne room on a regular basis? Hearing petitions is one of the few things that makes sense-- just about anything else would make more sense in a meeting room with a table or more comfortable study.
(Of course, Twilight's throne room isn't set up for that at all, and in fact is set up as a meeting room/round table for her friends.)
I think the second case you mentioned is just an interesting and important sounding thing active rulers would be doing.
I think the logic goes something along the lines of "What does Celestia do all day?" She must be running the country somehow. We have seen her do something vaguely administrative-looking once, and she was on some kind of diplomatic visit to Saddle Arabia for most of "Magic Duel." Thus, what little canon we have to go on involves diplomacy and forms. Similarly, the only hints we have of nobility are Blueblood and the Canterlot elite. Fancy Pants appears to be an exception to the rather snooty, superficial rule.
As for the Solomonic ruling from on high, Night Court is too good/obvious a pun to pass up, and logically there would also be a Day Court to go with it. That's always been my excuse.
Celestia is an ancient character even if she only looks 37. She also plays a role critical to life on the world, twice a day. It's only natural for us to assign other important, daily duties to her. I suspect that she's more likely to assign lesser court duties to others, though her lapse with Luna would be an easy catalyst to apply to Celestia on the importance of her direct involvement in local and international affairs. Speculation, as it may be...
"The Dúnedain don't normally wear pants."
3965397
So why the petition is the same at least half the time? :) I feel that there's something backwards there as well, because more often than not, the scene can just be avoided with no significant ill effects.
3965398
...wait. It is a pun?! I don't get how it is.
3965421
The one case of such speculation I remember in secondary canon is Celestia running off to settle the war between yaks and griffons. Still no trade, for some reason. :)
3965465
Well, a reference rather than a pun. My bad.
3965513
That doesn't strike me as particularly obvious, considering that it stopped airing before half the fans were even born. :)
3965465
I think a lot of fics are looking to establish the same things: Celestia is Good and Important, but can be safely borrowed by the plot without Equestria falling to ruin. As a bonus, the greedy noble proposal cliche confirms popularly-held-by-the-18-24-demographic political views of the rich.
A lot of writers need a building block that does those two things, and a lot of writers agree with those views and/or expect their readership to agree with those views. That makes it a very infectious cliche that needs minimal exposure to spread.
3965602
Ok, I can buy that. Now the next one...
...why isn't this satirized more often than it is practiced, like, say, many of the human-in-equestria cliches -- like killing a manticore on arrival? :)
3965607
Well, what are you expecting satire of it to look like? When I see this one in comedy fics, it seems like the writer usually exaggerates the greedy proposal to gargantuan proportions to play it for a laugh. Does that count?
3965615
The manticore one had a whole story devoted explicitly to sapient manticores herding invading humans away from ponies into a makeshift village in Everfree, because these bastards always try to kill someone...
I wouldn't call exaggerating a greedy proposal much of a satire, though it does play it for a laugh... Maybe, pretending to grant the request and letting the petitioner go with "Poor thing, he thinks we still have taxes." :)
This is a great point, Celestia does seem to run the government on a day to day basis, but "holding court" in a throne room is rarely an effective use of the supreme executive's time. It's like the President and the Oval Office. The president has like 3-4 different offices in the White House, many of them probably comfier than the Oval Office. Plus President's don't do a lot of paperwork themselves, mostly they are meeting with other people, frequently moving around to do it. I'm pretty sure the President usually only uses the Oval Office for meeting with people, rather than actually sitting there for 5 hours a day writing at the Oval Office desk. But if you look in a lot of movies where the protagonist meets the president, that's what the President is doing when someone bursts into the White House to see the President.
3965398 What's weird about this fandom interpretation is that most of the "Canterlot elite" take their cues and viewpoints from Fancy Pants, rather than Jet Set or Blueblood, so it seems far more likely the spoiled entitled ponies are minority, rather than the de fault. It's especially weird that Fancy Pants is treated like a saint. In his two major appearances, he makes a point of sucking up to Rarity only once he realizes she is a friend of the Princess, and in his second appearance he attempts to gain special political favors and access. Fancy Pants is the closest thing Equestria has to a scheming noble, but unlike Jet Set and others, he's smart enough to be friendly to the politically-connected Mane 6.
3965602 I think you nailed it right on the head. It drives me up the wall that Celestia is A)Incredibly respected, to the point of being worshiped, especially by the nobility B) Has ruled for a thousand years C)Openly encourages friendship, harmony, and thinking of others, D)Is shown to be quite manipulative and socially adept. And yet, every day nobles burst into court asking for a special tax exemption, only to be turned down by Celestia.... presumably like their last 50 generations of ancestors have been, all without any noble anywhere ever learning a lesson, despite Celestia being in constant contact with their families and presumably emphasizing to them "don't be a selfish prick."
3965623 I hope to someday see a grain magnate petitioning Celestia to divert all funds from needy orphanages to build him a vault so he can roll around in bits. Since this noble owns a lot of grain, his name should be Straw Man.
3965714
I have seen several fics actually use that as a sign of Celestia's slipping control over the nobility, which works for me, but it is ridiculous played straight as you describe it.
3965804 That could make sense, but then why now, after a thousand years, is Celestia losing control and being set up for "big dramatic speech to tell off stuffy noble" and not sooner? Sure, with Tirek and Chrysalis Celestia has had some public setbacks, but during the same time period she has gained two new princesses to help her rule, and recently at least some kind of semi-amicable relationship with Discord, so Celestia's grip on her throne should be stronger than ever.
3965822
Well, when fics are set varies. Some of what I'm thinking of were written a long time ago. The S2 finale spurred some 'Celestia losing control' fic, with the whole missing Chrissy and all. Some people have played Luna as a political liability, having upset the old order and not having Celestia's patience with the nobility. It also usually doesn't get written with Celestia getting to tell the noble off--a lot of the time it's written where she has to bear it and maneuver the noble more subtly, to reinforce the image of a politically weak Celestia.
All the changes would freak a hidebound aristocracy out. Four world-threatening terrors in short order plus major upheaval to the top of the power structure with the addition of all these new princesses that outrank them? That's a very stirred pot.
3965835 Yeah, it would freak out an ancient hidebound nobility, but I always found two problems with those fics:
First, Luna is the one who doesn't get along with the hidebound old nobility? Princess "can I still call commoners peasants" Luna? I would think they would love her, a traditionalist pony used to old formal rules for social occasions. Especially if the authors are trying to base pre-banishment Equestria off the European middle ages, when peasants were early to bed and early to rise, and only the nobility stayed up late at night for parties and events. And yet in every story, no noble ever enjoys is ever smart enough to show up late at night and say "hey, I love stargazing brand new princess, please come to our late-night ball." Or if they do try something like that, any noble that says this will be transparently sucking up, whereas any non-noble pony doing the same thing will be completely genuine.
Second, Celestia has had a thousand years of vast political and social dominance to basically reshape the nobility into anything she wants. If the nobles in general are so hidebound, why hasn't Celestia stripped them of all political power centuries ago? She certainly has the time and the smarts to do it gradually, without generating significant conflict. Or, if she wants the nobles around instead of appointed bureaucrats to run the government (which she seems to use in the comics at least), why hasn't Celestia laid the groundwork for the nobles to be willing to accept Luna?
3965513 I soooo get that reference
Someone should do a pony parody.
I've never had Celestia take petitions[1] and in my stories the throne room is largely ceremonial[2], and what Celestia does do all day is take various sorts of meeting and reads a truly appalling number of reports. She has quite a lot of power in her hooves, even if about half of it is emergency-only[3], and another is of the subtle, influence-over-civil-service kind. She does a lot of diplomatic work (she is the head-of-state, after all), a lot of subtle steering and nudging, and of course, she puts all of the rest of her time into the Long Plan, viz. the transformation of Equestrian society and governance so as to make her and the state in general largely superfluous.
Celestia's very favorite political philosopher, you see, is Klopotkin, a chap from Stalliongrad with some rather extraordinary ideas.
It's been hard going, but she's very, very, very patient.
[1] The Right of Petition is in the constitution (Articles of Union/Charter of Freedoms, scroll six, paragraph 3, just under the stain) but it's been reinterpreted to make the Day/Night court the last court of appeal with a lot of the work being done behind the scenes by frantic, overworked ponies carrying saddle-loads of papers.
[2] Celestia still proclaims laws, but that only means that she sits on the throne and reads out the titles of various acts with a lot of ancient verbiage. Quietly, they actually go into force weeks in advance and the proclamation is theater. Parliamentary Powers Acts of 688, 812, 914, and 965.
[3] Emergency Powers and Defense of the Realm Act 413. In times of extreme crisis the current Princess-Regent takes over all essential government functions and regains the power of absolute royal decree, with only advisory influence of the Emergency Council[4], though the power is time-limited and subject to parliamentary review. In case the line of succession is bare, the power devolves onto the Emergency Council where matters are to be resolved by simple majority vote.
[4] Members: Prime Minister, Speaker of the House of Commons, Lector of the Council of Nobles, Chief of Staff of the Equestrian Armed Forces, the head of the Civil Service, the Legate-Secretary of Her Majesty, Her Majesty's Privy Secretary In Extraordinary, the Special Plenipotentiary Clerk for Succession, and the Federal Coordinator for Disaster Relief. The last five of these are all Dotted Line. His ready bag even includes the extra-large name-plate he had custom-made, just in case.
3965514
True, but I got the reference despite never having seen an episode. You get a lot of this stuff via osmosis, I find.
3965602
Or, the writers have taken some history at some point, and know of how contentious the relationship between royalty and nobility historically was. And since Celestia is unlikely to apply the historical remedies (they involve decapitation) one can assume that the conflict continues as she grinds away at the power of the nobility.
Which, given that we pretty much all live in democracies of one sort or another, we all agree is a Good Thing, yes? No matter our ages?
3966022
Probably also true. It would have been for me. It's a hard thing to untangle--we're basically speculating on the contents of the stew of pre-existing notions the average FimFic writer's brain is steeped in.
3965607
I suspect this comes from the fact that most of the writers on the site simply don't know how a (presumably) absolute monarchy* actually functions, as the only ones like that around today tend to be on the tyrannical side of things. So we just kind of go with things that sound important and kingly/queenly, but which does not need a lot of detail fleshing it out. And a Solomon-esque court is pretty immediately recognizable.
*Even if it is some kind of constitutional monarchy - the comics mention a senator - it is one where the monarch actually seems to still hold political power.**
**Actually, I suppose even that is a guess.
I go away for a few hours and lots of comments happens…
3965714
I think it’s equal parts Rarity’s perception of him, his opinion of Rarity, and the voice.
In a HiE, this is usually just so that the human could be outraged and/or be the one to give said speech, for obvious reasons. See “Not The Hero” for a story that is entirely based around how ridiculous that is.
In other subgenres, though, it’s, for lack of a better word, skewed.
3965835
Well, the first one would be Cadance, who actually showed up a while ago…
Actually, this might be an interesting internal consistency indicator: Cadance’s birth date and actual status, combined with her marriage, not to mention the Crystal Empire, fits fine into some models with nobility in them an drops several crates worth of implications on others.
3966022
It so happens that my context is at least 30% different from anyone in the world, the mean match rate is about 40%. I’d never get quite enough via osmosis to get most of it. :)
Notice that they do so because they presuppose the existence of a large noble class. But even in fantasy it doesn’t have to be that way so I’m wondering if there’s a dead unicorn somewhere nearby…
3966069
But from where? I’m trying to remember examples in popular fiction, and the only one I seem to come up with is the actual Solomon.
3966496
Why should the actual Solomon not be the basis for it. The Bible is a rather notably good best-seller after all. Even the most secular individuals are likely to have at least some periphery knowledge of some of its content. And Solomon is probably one of the most well known individuals in the Old Testament, right after Moses, Noah, and Adam and Eve. And he wasn't quite a one shot pony like David is generally known as. (Not entirely fairly I might add.)
Plus there is a certain mystique surrounding Solomon. Most people familiar with the name can probably tell you that he was known for being the wisest man in the world, and was, as such, a really good and fair king. (Whereas I suspect only people who make a point of studying the Bible will remember that he took a downturn in the latter years of his reign, thanks to greed and arrogance overriding his literally God-given wisdom.)
Actually, now that I think about it, Solomon makes a somewhat good parallel to Celestia, at least in perception.
3966496 I love Not the Hero! AlaraRogers does fantastic worldbuilding, amongst other things.
3966022 I rather like your description of Celestia, she reminds me of the head of the civil service in Yes Minister.
As someone who presumably sounds like they've studied a lot of European history however, I'm sure you know that even the most contentious of noble houses rally around a popular leader who gains intense devotion from the commoners. Queen Elizabeth and King Louis the 14th (who I would suggest is the closest single historical equivalent to Celestia). They had their most powerful nobles eating out of their own hand, and in Louis' case reduced to fairly powerless courtiers, mostly done with internal persuasion and manipulation rather than overwhelming brute force, in a handful of decades. I assume Celestia would restrict herself to even kinder and gentler methods, but even so, it's seems fairly implausible to imagine Celestia not being able to strip the nobility of every scrap of real political power in the course of a century. If their are any nobles around who can actually wield power in modern Equestria, it's because Celestia wants it that way.
I like to think that court is mainly a matter of tradition, something ponies seem to like to keep going.
"Dear, where is my Asking For Taxbreaks on Saltmines waistcoat? I'm late."
"Oh sweetie, I had to send it to the seamstress after last time. Can't you use the Ask For Taxbreaks on Salt Shipping waistcoat?"
"What? Oh dear, no! We used that waistcoat for centuries for this exact reason. I can't use a different one and get upped by Jet Set."
"Didn't Emerald Shore make it acceptable three hundred years ago to swap outfits bound by same thematic issues?"
"The Shores are a disgrace! Look where they are now. Pop music instead of the glorious Tradition of Petty Petitioning."
"But you hate it too."
"Sigh, I do, but somepony has to entertain our princesses. They do so much for us, it's the least we could do for them."
3966951
The better a book sells, the less people are likely to actually read it. :) It does make for a perfect dead unicorn, though...
3967776
That would make for an excellent satire! Which I'm sure you should write. :)
3967739
As I always understood it, the nobility of Elizabethan England did just about everything begrudgingly. Most of them hated Elizabeth more or less on principle, but Elizabeth managed to make her position largely unassailable. It required pretty constant effort on her part, but no one could really get anything on her. Not so much rallying behind her, as much as going along because they knew what was good for them.
3967893
True, but it's been around a while, there has bound to have been at least a few people who read the silly thing.
Actually, if I recall, your example where Luna arbitrated court in the comics was like a small claims version of the famous ruling of Solomon. The more I think about it, the more I think Celestia, and Luna to an extent, or kind of seen as horse versions of Solomon.
3967939
Sudden thought: That makes Chrysalis a djinn. Cause Celestia sealed her in a volcano.
Further sudden thought: Just like Doctor Who canon includes numerous objects which are "X of Rassilon," (key, ring, harp... starting with the seal, all they're missing is a towel) which are clearly a structural reference to "X of Solomon" (key, table, ring, and possibly a few other trinkets) so "X of Celestia" series of artifacts must exist, and possibly a complementary pair of "X of Luna" for each, because why not.
3969087
I would pay money for a Towel of Solomon. If I had any anyway.
I string of "X of Celestia" artifacts... Maybe the Civil Service has these things cataloged. Or Daring Do does.
"This belongs in a museum!"
"Oh that is a wonderful idea, Ms. Do. It will take some time to set up an exhibit able to harmlessly contain the power, but I think it could be done."
3969114
Twilight probably keeps one of those artifacts under her pillow somewhere. :)
3969121 Twilight probably is one of those artifacts: the Ascended Student of Celestia.
3972545
Only if she can be frozen and then revived sometime during space age. :)
Big Jim kinda answers your question about Celestia holding court. Mythic Knight asked this very question. Scroll down a little to find it, second conversation.
Also further down Equestria as a planet or not, has yet to be decided.
3972845
I decided not to put any stock into the word of god for MLP. Several times in recent months, those twitter posts were outright trolling, most of the real answers were essentially "undecided," and in general it was pretty useless.
I did write about that recently. :)
3973354 Did you? I must have read it. I still have a third of your blogs to read, but everything you've written since I started following you, has been read. I've been reading so much these last couple days I think I forgot some of it along the way.
3973389
I kind of did.
3991969
Russian fairy tales typically don't include such scenes, as far as I remember. In those, the ruler's role in judgement, when it does come up, is normally not determining truth or solving a dispute, but merely pronouncing the punishment or mercy... Ukrainian ones are rather different in that regard, and in general, it seems like a motive more common in the Balkans, because I vaguely misremember some Romanian fairytales that definitely do include the idea.
But I'm no folklorist. Maybe there's something in "One Thousand and One Nights?" But it's a collection so thick, it has to have bloody everything...
3992134
Mmm... The ones that I remember are authored by Pushkin and as such aren't folklore, strictly speaking. :)
It does sound like a possibility, (Confucianism would rate this sort of thing highly) though I'm not familiar enough with those to confirm or deny.
3965623
This was about the last possible place I was expecting one of my fics to be referenced.
4100206
Maybe it's time to write one about nobility and taxes, then. :)
4100640
Here, I'll write one for you right now.
3965514
Tsk. It was great.
3965714
"Straw Man"…but…pony?
3969087
[These] Arabic-derived nouns pluralize in a way contrary to our Latin [mis-]sensibilities of plural-octopi…"djinni" is singular (=>genie), while "djinn" is plural; likewise "efreeti/efreet".
3973354
Well, "in the title sequence" at least Celestia is seen sitting on her throne with a pair of [non-white, unusually] guardsponies, presumably waiting to ask someone if they like bananas…
4100935
Well done, well done.
4307422
I could have gone with "Straw Mane," but it was already pretty on the nose. In any case, thanks for calling my attention back to this thread, it caused me to read 4100935 's fantastic pastiche of almost every story focused on Celestia and the nobility written on this site, lacking only in a Blueblood who drops by to sneer at something and then goes on his way.
3967939 The nobles Elizabeth's age and older did have this attitude, yes. They remember her struggling just to get the throne as a young girl. But the younger ones who grew up with her bought into her cult of virginity and idolized her just as much as the commoners did. Her Golden Speech to the House of Commons near the end of her rain, where she confessed implausible ignorance to shady dealings by her courtiers and played on the emotions of the room, led to a huge rallying of support from the nobility, mainly based on her silver tongue and long reputation at this point.
Another comparison might be crusades: Two of the largest religions on the planet have most of the adherents they have today because many generations ago the ancestors of those adherents had their traditional religions banished and were forced to convert at swordpoint. And yet, over many generations, that forced worship translates into genuine piety (for many). It doesn't matter if some noble's great great grand-dam bent the forehoof to Celestia only out of fear, that noble is going to care more about the fact that Celestia was at his baby shower, and is on all the statues everywhere, and greeted him oh-so-politely at the last Gala. Grandma might grumble some half-remembered story passed on about Celestia being mean, but that's just going to go in one ear and out the other. Immortal beings can simply outlast their critics, while using their immense social capital as leaders to lay the groundwork to prevent a new generation of critics.