One Simple Trick That Comment Trolls Hate! · 3:33pm Mar 13th, 2016
After Wanderer D's blog on the subject of leaving comments, I felt that authors and commenters might benefit from a small nugget of wisdom I've picked up since I started writing here.
So, lets say Negative Nancy leaves comments that persistently and repeatedly tears down your story even after dozens or hundreds of others have left positive comments for you. Negative Nancy's comments look something like this:
This story you've written doesn't conform to canon and the characters are unrealistic! Also, your father smells of elder berries!
Now, all you have to do is add three little words to the relevant spots:
This story you've written doesn't conform to canon in my opinion and the characters are unrealistic in my opinion! Also, your father smells of elder berries in my opinion!
Three little words changes quite a bit, doesn't it? The comment is transformed from a pretentious tear-down of the author's good work into a slightly more honest expression of opinion. And that's what the comment is: An opinion. Not a statement of fact as Negative Nancy would like everyone to believe.
Now, this isn't a rule that can be applied to every comment. A comment pointing out a spelling, punctuation or formatting error obviously isn't an opinion (and they're generally trying to be helpful).
In the end, though, this is just a quick trick that I rely on to weed out legitimate comments from the naysayers.
Happy reading, folks!
Edit:
I strongly encourage folks to read the comments, as several other authors have weighed in and provided their own feedback and thoughts! Join the conversation!
[youtube=pWdd6_ZxX8c]
(Sorry, I had to.)
3805816
I'm totally bookmarking this video.
In fairness, I can totally see why he would say your father smells of elderberries. It's a pretty similar scent, I made the same mistake at first.
In my opinion, someone else acting like a dick is not a license for you to act like one. In my opinion if you do, you have no leg to stand on regarding "those mean commenters".
*edit*
This is not directed at Arad.
3805823
I understand the point you're making, and believe it or not, this blog was not inspired by the comments of the last chapter. I had actually been toying around with posting this blog since Wanderer D posted his.
I've tried to be as polite as I can over the years that I've been writing this story. You'll have to forgive me when I have a slip up every once and a while.
I like that you are keeping a positive attitude about neigh sayers. Better than myself, Army just told me to follow regs regarding stupidity and turn their lives into living nightmares if they have no leg to stand on. Having an opinion means nothing if you cannot be constructive in your appraisal of the matter at hand.
Too bad social media has allowed people to be as cruel and vindictive as they want to be with out any real repercussions.
Arad, drive on with what you are doing. It looks good and any issues I have are my own. Really enjoying your work of FICTION and hope you end as strong as you started.
3805828
Oh, I know what went down with that linked blog. My comment was in no way related to you aside from slapping in some italicized "in my opinions". I don't actually believe that you have been a bad actor when it comes to responding to comments on your story. In my opinion what crosses the line into being a dick is attacking the person, not the argument. I can't recall you doing that, so in my books, as I said, my statement of opinion has nothing to do with you.
90% of comments are gibbering stupidity or harmless silliness or effusive emotion.
I expect less and less from comments. I'm weaning myself off of them so that I can enjoy the dozen or so that mean something. Because after awhile... Man people are dumb. The more I care the more depressed I am. Leave anything subtle and they don't see it, beat them over the head and they complain that you're hamfisted. Have romance and they whine, have none and they criticize that too. Do what you want and they complain. Do what they want and you pander.
It's a good thing I'm not as dependent on feedback these days.
3805836
Social media (and the internet as a whole) has kinda garnered the belief that anyone can say anything they want and have little/no repercussions. The majority of the mean comments I've seen (not here, just the internet in general) would be phrased quite different if the person they were addressing was capable of lunging over the table at them.
3805839
Thank you for clarifying that for me. I admit that I've been a bit defensive as of late due to certain conversations and developments as of late, and I was half-suspecting that your comment was aimed a bit at me.
And you're also 100% correct: If you have to defend yourself, attack the argument and not the commenter.
3805841
Oh, I hear you. There was a prhase I came up with to describe my situation when two comments levied completely opposite criticisms on a specific topic: I'm the writer who can write no right. I'm screwed no matter what I do.
All comments are peoples opinion and you are right this is good advice but people should extrapolate this to all aspects of there life.
When someone says something to you and you disagree with it saying to them "Well that is your opinion" is meaningless and only serves to make you feel better and make you look stupid at the same time. Everything people say unless they are saying them on behalf of someone else stems from there opinion and people should just deal with that, nothing people say is ever authoritative unless they have a peer reviewed paper backing them up and even then you can disagree with them with the relative confidence that the people who reviewed the paper did so with there opinion.
TLDR, Everyone is wrong except you.
3805847
There are some comments that aren't opinions, and I think I gave an example above: Grammar/punctuation fixes.
And this blog is less about disregarding all criticism and more about giving authors a tool to identify and diffuse some of the worst comments that come up.
3805846 I remember a specific character death in MM displeased me but I kept silent. (Every character death is a gambit, always a risk. I set up one real well and still had some rage quitting.) because I knew you were probs gonna end up with a tidal wave of garbage. Having felt it before the last thing I wanted was to add to that mess.
3805852 That is a fair point in regards to grammar but it does not make the "In my opinion" tool any less insipid... In my opinion
3805855
I understand exactly what you mean. We authors (usually) don't make such severe decisions at the drop of a hat, and they're carefully considered in the context of the rest of the plot. The readers don't often consider this, which is understandable. Considering they have to wait weeks/months to find out what's going to happen next (and without having the context of the entire plan to reassure them), it's natural to be somewhat upset.
3805860
I developed the 'In my opinion' method of dealing with comments after dealing with a very specific commenter and his legion of rereg trolls. His comments were critical of things that weren't relevant to this story, and were heavily based upon his own head canon and his opinions. Rather than spend (more) hours refuting every single thing he brought up, I simply began to apply the 'in your opinion' logic to it, and it made things much simpler.
While I do agree with you in some cases, I have seen far too many cases of people blowing off reasoned arguments to fully agree. Whenever I give real feedback and advice I always make sure to give a logical basis for it (baring exceptional cases like my reference to a previous comment on MM), yet I am regularly blown off and attacked by others because they want to try to pretend that a logical argument is the same as an unjustified opinion. The really frustrating thing is that this most commonly comes from authors who really need to be open to constructive criticism to improve their craft, although the really strange thing is that the worst offenders are usually competent authors who cannot accept that getting mostly positive feedback does not mean they are perfect and can do no wrong (and before you ask, this is mostly targeted at Anzel who recently blocked me after I called him on resorting to personal attacks for offering constructive criticism).
3805893 the issue with those is that sometimes as well reason as they are, they're a projection of what the reviewer wants the story to be rather than what it is. It doesn't mean the opinion isn't valid, or that this is always the case, but it does happen. Also, try not to point people in the direction of someone specific you are criticizing.
3805823 i agree with your opinion. I don't practice it 100% of the time, but it is the better way to act, for sure.
Well... of course I'm speaking in my opinion. I'm not in politics; who else's opinion would I espouse? Sorry to hear you've got some haters on MM or whatever else led to this posting. I haven't commented on it because well... eh... I'm very frustrated with it and have been almost since it began. I really dislike leaving comments that are mostly vitriol so I'm holding my tongue... except here it'd seem. I'm hoping that will change, but for now it's a slog no matter how much I like Stardust (and no, it's not the Sweetie thing; it was well before that. I was fine with her and thank you actually for turning me on to that story; I hadn't heard of it before the crossover talk started).
That said... you should keep in mind the positive... which is overwhelming in terms of response to MM. You're never going to please everyone, and even if the angry are often louder that doesn't mean they deserve more attention. Noise canceling headphones are a godsend. Keep on truckin'.
3805903 True, but in that case the reasoned argument can be met with a reasoned counterargument and then we have a real logical debate on our hands which is far more interesting than just saying something is right or wrong. A debate means both people get the chance to learn and grow in a much deeper and more meaningful way than simple constructive criticism because there is a real exchange of ideas going on along with an active process to reconcile them with each other, canon, and reality which frequently forges new and better ideas than what either person started out with.
Also, fair enough on not pointing directly at other users. It is something I usually avoid, but I felt like there were enough extenuating circumstances in this case for it to make sense. A big part of the reason I pointed him out was to make it crystal clear that I was not targeting Arad with that comment because the recent discussion in the comments of Mente Materia could easily lead someone to believe that my comment was an attack on him which is not at all what I intended so I wanted to remove any hint of that. The other part of course is that taking it all the way to the block list makes it a perfect example of literally blocking out constructive criticism which is why I thought it made sense to point out a specific example in this case even though that is something that I almost never do.
3805893
Wanderer D beat me to a few things I was going to say, but I did want to agree 100% that I wasn't clear about dismissing valid comments. There are some comments that, while qualified for the 'in my opinion' rule, are still worth considering (and responding to). When I had first started writing Mente Materia, I had an unfortunate incident with a reader who had problems with character portrayal for a specific character. From his perspective there was a serious problem because the only things that he was aware of in the story was what I had published. From my perspective, there was no problem because I knew that everything was going to be built upon and revealed at a later point. We had a discussion that unfortunately didn't end well after some miscommunication, but I'm happy to report that the story has redeemed itself in this commenter's eyes after my plans revealed themselves.
Why did I bring up this anecdote? Because while his concerns fell under the 'opinion' rule, he openly admitted that it was his opinion and was open to discussion of his points. A lot of the commenter's tone comes across not only in what they say but how they say it. A good comment to engage has a tone of "This is how I feel on the subject but I would like to talk about it." A bad comment would have a tone of "My opinion is fact, and I dare you to challenge it."
Also, just as a courtesy I would avoid using specific names in the future. I don't want this blog to turn into a hate thread for people that have wronged us. :S
Good advice.
Well your mother was a hamster! Now, I'll leave, before you taunt me a second time.
"...Also, your father smells of elder berries!..."
Elderberries is one word. Of course that's just my opinion. And Wikipedia (which is only slightly more authoritative than 'I found this written in a bathroom stall' but I take what I can get.)
Yeah, one thing I hate in comments is somebody who blows typos all out of proportion and rants about them to no end... Wait a minute.
3805920
Thank you for sharing! I suppose another nugget of wisdom that writing these stories is that it is impossible to write a story that everyone likes. This is not a bad thing, it's simply a fact. There was a crossover story that I was reading that was brilliantly written in my opinion (see what I did there?) but got to be so dark that I found it -disturbing.- I suppose it's a testament to the writer that they were able to shake me like that... but I couldn't keep reading the story.
You also bring up another point that I really should be more aware of considering that I work in a customer service position: What motivates the majority of people to fill out a survey? A bad experience. When it comes to stories like this, you have to balance the number of negative comments you get against the numbers of people who read it. Of course, if you get five reads and five bad comments... you might have to do some rethinking.
3805931
And this is why I wish comments updated in real time while I'm writing another comment. I could have wrapped this up in the previous comment.
With a good comment, there's a possibility of debate and growth for the individuals involved ("I think this part came off a little badly") as opposed to bad comments that simpy want to argue ("You're an asshole and here's why.") I'm all for debates, and there have been times where my plans have changed based on feedback and debates I've gotten from my readers and my editors. Every one of those changes came from a 'good' comment.
3805943
This is actually a perfect example of a comment that is NOT an opinion, as it's something that's pointing out a mechanical problem in what was written. :P
3805893 Oh, please. Don't try to whitewash history so blatantly when the comment exchange that got you banned is publicly available and easy to find. Your first comment may well have been constructive criticism, it quickly devolved into telling Anzel how to write his story:
You earned that comment ban 100% by yourself.
3805938 3805953 And this right here is exactly why I wanted to be perfectly clear that I was not targeting you with my comment.
You do a great job of keeping things in perspective and responding to criticism in a mature, rational way which makes your writing stronger as you realize there are things you can do better and take action on them.
Anyways, we are clearly fully in agreement on everything here, I just felt like it was important to bring this up for completeness sake.
I use the "refresh comments" button to solve this problem. I write my full response, then hit that button to see if there is anything new I need to add to the comment since I started writing it. Sort of like this comment that popped up after I started writing this:
3805961 Way to take a quote out of context. That was me calling him on completely ignoring my logical arguments twice and, slightly later in that post, his personal attacks against me.
3805961
I admit to being somewhat ignorant of the circumstances involved, but I'm going to kindly ask not to bring them up or discuss them any further here. I intended this blog to discuss positive and negative comments in a general sense. I don't want this to turn into a flame war. To everyone who is familiar with this specific incident, I request that we please drop the subject for now.
If you have anything to add regarding the subject of this blog, feel free to comment!
3805974
RE: Refresh button: I think I tried that once on my old laptop and I lost the comment I was writing. The button has scared me since. :S
Now, regarding djthomp's comment, I'll state the same thing I said to him: Please drop this subject, as discussing specific events was not the intent of this blog (and it likely will devolve into a flame war. :S)
3805974 Oh yeah, this personal attack?
That's the beauty of why I linked the whole exchange, anyone who cares can go see for themselves.
3805979 Whoops, another comment refresh issue, sorry. I'll leave it be.
3805981 Consider it dropped, and my solution to that problem is to hit ctrl+a, ctrl+c to get the whole comment floating in the windows clipboard in case anything goes wrong.
Stop trying to tear down honest shitposters everywhere!
In my opinion, opinions are like a**holes; everyone's got one.
Am I doing it right?
3805992 Chrome is scary-good at that sometimes. I had one case where I was typing a multi-respondent response, had about six people responded to, and a different tab in Chrome froze the whole thing up. Had to task manager Chrome closed, but when I opened the page again, everything I had typed was *still there* Awesome.
3805979 "...I intended this blog to discuss positive and negative comments in a general sense..."
And in general, a certain classification of negative comments is "I expected the story to make a right turn when you turned left. (something which I must confess to on occasion, even on your stories :) In fact, I've only deleted comments in a story (thinks) maybe three times in three years, two singles and one comment thread that had devolved into two people screaming at each other over something that had nothing to do with the story. I don't think I've ever scotched a comment of this "Left vs. Right" type, although this type is the comment that hits authors the hardest. After all, we've been at that crossroads while writing the story, and we made that turn *because* we wanted to go down that particular path. What really wrinkles the reader's pajamas is when they have a different mental image of the character than the writer, and the 'turn' seems wrong to them, or arbitrary. In truth, sometimes people/ponies simply make bad decisions and stuff happens, in real life or in written words.
Well said, that is always the biggest challenge with comments that I find. Some readers assume that their comment is "correct" versus an opinion. Every author has goals for their story and things they're trying to get across. We don't always succeed! I know I don't. Sometimes, however, I get "suggestions" that just aren't and it really isn't helpful.
So again, well said!
Thank you for adding another voice towards the reality that trolls have no actual power if we choose to give them none.
For myself, I've long since come to the conclusion that it's rare that anyone making an actual mean comment about my work still inadvertently is still commenting after they read my story. Yes, some are so vague that you can't tell one way or the other, but in order to make any kind of insult or calling out a mistake of some kind, they became a reader too. In that case, you can even thwart the intent by considering what was referenced and learning how to do better. If they did not read your work and made no applicable comments, you can just discard it out of hand without a second thought because there's nothing to think about.
The second main thing I do with my writing is plant myself firmly in the seat of writing for myself first. It is only after that position that I choose to share what I've done with others. The way I figure it, those that share similar tastes will generally enjoy what I write. Those that do not share similar tastes will go elsewhere. So far, I have yet to go wrong with this approach. After all, nothing works for everyone. It makes no sense to expect you could possibly please everyone as a result.
Consider every comment as a chance to learn a little bit more of how your work is perceived. Every one of them can hint further than the words they contain.
3806017
You forgot to add that everyone has one and nobody's willing to admit that theirs stinks. :P
I'll reply with a somewhat larger post later, just wanted to poke my head in.
3806198 I just love the downvote I got for my sense of humor.
It's amazing how much power three simple words can have sometimes, eh?
Mostly I engage in conversation with the person and try to discover why they feel that way. Sometimes I realize that something didn't come across the way I intended, other times I explain why I did something and ask them to respect my decision even if they disagree. However, there are some cases where they have their minds made up and don't listen to what you are saying. At that point I ignore them. Only once have I ever banned someone, but that person was going into personal attacks at that point.
So this blog post is about authors on how to handle negative comments, to decide which comments to engage?
What about commenters that are generally polite, but bring up an argument over and over again, regardless of how many times it has been debunked by the author and other commenters?
"Well, that's just your opinion man, even if you provided sources for episodes pointing out that a character didn't/wouldn't do what I wrote. So, instead of making an effort to improve my knowledge of the property I'm writing about or observing established canon, I'm just going to put my fingers in my ears and say that all subjective criticism, no matter how much it's based on objective fact, is invalid. That way, I can continue producing high quantity, low quality material with as little effort as possible."
The problem with absolute "advice" like this is that it is a detriment to both the writer's ability to improve, should they follow it without due consideration (and there are many who do so) and to the readers who follow that author's work.
"If a person's critique couldn't be bothered to explain why a character isn't acting in a way that befits then (or concerns another subjective opinion in a similar vein), then you shouldn't be bothered to pay attention to their rambling."
There, loophole fixed. Of course, that's just my opinion. I'm sure you'll follow your own advice and ignore it, eh?
3809321
I had never intended this to be an all or nothing kind of guideline. I had discussed this exact subject in earlier comments, but recent experience has taught me that folks rarely read earlier comments if they have a point the want to make.
3809454
I don't have half an hour to dedicate to reading comments, I'm afraid. Perhaps consider making edits to the actual parent post so everyone can easily see what points have already been debated, instead of expecting them to trawl through several dozen posts for your benefit?
3809728
I will, now that I know there is at least one person who had enough time to compose a sarcastic response but not enought to read less than a page worth of comments.
3809777
You confuse a blunt statement of obvious logic, albiet put in a pedantic way, with sarcasm.
Simply put, I am responding to your post, not your replies to other people's posts. The onus is not on me to find all of your nuggets of wisdom spread across the comments, but rather on you to organize them all in a single, somewhat concise location so I can properly reply. A dozen people reading through the entirety of your ever growing comments section, or just you making a quick edit to your original post; which sounds more efficient and fair?
But that would be just oh-so-hard, wouldn't it?
(That, by the way, is sarcasm)
3810271
Considering you're the first person to whine about it in these comments, I don't think the problem is as widespread as you think.
And lively discussions happened from a variety of different viewpoints in the comments, which were valuable in their own right. Do you want me to edit the blog and include all the comments in it? Is that efficient? Do you want me to only pick out the things I want to support my theory? Is that fair?
Have you considered writing your own blog on the subject, where you can curate it to your heart's content? Or is your limited free time all but consumed by visiting other people's blogs and telling them what to do in the least helpful manner possible?
3810315
A problem that others do not notice or choose to ignore is still a problem.
I would expect you to either A) Provide a brief rundown of topics already discussed to avoid repetition or B) Not get your feathers ruffled when someone repeats something in the comments due to you not performing part A).
Shifting burden to the reader for the author's failings is no way to go about making your point.
And it is only unhelpful because you have chosen to take it that way. I have made sure to provide reasons why my method would be of benefit to both yourself and your readers in each comment, only in a way that was made to jab your ego. A good writer has to be capable of taking jeering in stride, but you have instead sputtered and stomped at every turn. Whereas I gave pointed but fair critique on your absolutionist statements and burdening the reader instead of performing your own due diligence, you have done nothing but insult and insinuate, unable to concede even an inch.
But, I suppose, I should have seen the warning signs your journal shone. It was much the same, break before you bend rhetoric, it is better to be wrong in ignorance than to admit error in wisdom.
If you would like to actually counterpoint the actual problems I have laid out, instead of strawmanning the argument and resorting to ad hominem attacks, I will gladly welcome it with much more friendly responses. Otherwise, I have people who can swallow their pride for long enough to read the suggestions of improvement before letting their bruised ego loose.
3810646
Well now, this is quite a treat. To those of you who are still reading this blog entry, rejoice! We get to see just about everything we discussed in action! I had originally published this blog to help folks who want to have a discussion versus folks who just want to be mean. As the above poster started his comment off with pedantry and sarcasm, and only escalated from there, it would not be hard to assume that he's the latter. An example of the former might have phrased his original post as a helpful suggestion, but that isn't the case here. But while we're on the subject, lets dissect this comment as it provides so many helpful tells for people who want to weed out the helpful from the confrontational.
As an author, you are working a balancing act. Ideally you write what you want entirely for your own benefit, but some people (myself included) enjoy having some feedback. If you're one of the folks that enjoys feedback, then one thing you must keep in mind is that you cannot please everyone with a story, and attempting to do so will likely end in disaster. More likely than not, you will get a few people who don't like a given story because of a plot development, or a character depiction, or because you used the wrong format. While it's unfortunate, you have to remember that one person making these complaints is one person making these complaints, and take it as such.
Some commenters will post a suggestion but frame it in an insulting manner, then play innocent when you don't give them the respect they feel they deserve.
Some commenters will refuse to admit any failings in their own suggestions. Notice how this commenter did nothing to reply to my earlier comment about what should be added to the blog and what shouldn't make the cut.
As an author or blogger, you have every right to establish rules of behavior in the mediums you moderate. This author has stated numerous times that he can't be bothered to read more than the first blog post, and is likely ignorant of my lack of tolerance for people who post entirely to incite. And ignorance is no defense.
A good writer has to be capable of taking jeering in stride, but they are under no obligation to tolerate trolls who don't follow the rules.
You'll often encounter commenters who will paint themselves as bespectacled and respected professionals and anyone who disagrees is an uncultured troglodyte of ill repute. By the time they're blowing their own horn this hard, it's safe to assume any rational discourse is out the window.
Some even like to pretend they're philosophers.
Concessions like these are rarely sincere after the comment writer has gone out of his way to insult other people. It's more a token statement to try and paint themselves as the rational party.
This is another common endpoint for this kind of comment: A sour grapes statement that even if the other person doesn't bow to their every whim then they have other people of higher quality to converse with. Which begs the question: if not to aggravate and annoy, why are they spending time harassing you in the first place?
And, last but not least, you will invariably come to a point where you will need to use the nuclear option: Blocking. Some folks refuse to follow the rules you set in your blog/story, no matter what you try, so you may have to block them from sending messages to you or posting any comments on your stories/blogs. I don't like doing this, but it is sometimes warranted when the person in question is unrepentant in their actions and unwilling to improve themselves.
Now, there are some folks who choose to not only violate the rules you set down, but also violate the rules of the website to continue their arguments after they've been blocked. This is typically done by a reregistered account or by editing an existing comment. These are bannable offenses. If you see someone doing one or the other, please report it to your friendly mods and they'll fix the problem.
Everyone, thanks for reading!