Dehumanizing Ponies - Wrapup · 3:50pm Jan 27th, 2014
Part Eight
I don't really have much more to say about constructing a xenofictional context for ponies. That doesn't mean there won't be any more posts, but I've exhausted all my immediate topics. If you have a topic you'd like me to cover, either on dehumanizing ponies or on some other deconstruction/analysis, please say so! I've had a lot of fun doing these posts.
So far as writing goes, the hardest things to use would be the nonhuman behaviors - the lack of dominance hierarchy, the focus on internal and mundane matters, the cultural gulf between the tribes. Since we're operating outside normal human behavior we can't use our intuitive understanding to generate character drive and dynamics. This doesn't mean our characters will be unrecognizable, it just means that occasionally (or often) they'll do something that doesn't make sense as a normal reaction to us.
Things that can be integrated into less xenofictional fics are things like the general pony acceptance of different moral codes and behaviors while still keeping an idea of what is threat and what is not. Tolerance, in other words, that comes from experience with a wider range of sapient life than we have. The cutie mark drive, while alien, is probably not too difficult to contextualize into a more familiar psychology.
Nonhuman tools are kind of a weird thing. They're already there in some parts, but not in others, and who really cares if the spoon is bent at a 135 degree angle or not? Unless your fic focuses on war and the weapons of war, or perhaps a pony inventor who is actually designing tools and mechanisms to interface with pony anatomy, just labeling the use of an item is enough. Narratively, the best way to convey it is probably through how a pony would use it, which would vary from how a human would (instead of using a doorknob, you'd have a hoofplate to open a door. Whatever).
But I think that every fic, regardless of how human or inhuman its ponies are, should pay closer attention to body language. Ponies have ears and a tail, and there are many tiny actions actions that they take in the show that aren't human body language (like raising a forehoof and the opposing rear hoof at the same time). Even I haven't followed this advice, but I think that being careful about your body language really can make your fic richer regardless of your pony construction.
If you've liked this blog series, spread the word! Link it to people! Maybe toss it into the Fimfiction Editorial recommends when the February recs are up, I don't know. And again, if you have any requests for future topics or specific things for this topic, feel free to post them.
Thank you for writing this insightful blog series. I'm looking forward to any future topics you may decide to cover!
Ha, body language! That's a thing I did. Once.
Very enjoyable series.
It was a great series and now I can understand better why your stories tend to be centered more about personality development, metaphysics and philosophy.
I would really love to see something on pony (or horse) body language. Picturing body language is something I currently have quite a bit of trouble with.
Branching into other sentient (in Equestria) creatures would also be interesting, as the differences can even inspire stories. In Bridle Gossip, for example, when Zecora pawns the earth, that is something that real world Zebras do when they are calm, but real world horses do mostly when they are agitated and prone to attack.
I have to admit that I haven't looked into body language either. Somehow, now that I think about it, I reduced body language primarily to ear- and eyebrow movement. While I read the previous posts as a comparison of cannons, like others did. This minor point, however, brought or will bring me forward in writing ponies, even if it's just a small piece. Thanks for that.
Another topic I'd like to hear your ideas about is resource management. While the human is an animal that's constantly adjusting to the changes of environment, I don't think that the ponies would go just as well with customizing their environment. As they have magic, trains and other wonderful things it isn't necessarily (only) the technological gap that keeps an industrialization from Equestria and the surrounding kingdoms.
1764990
Technology by another name is...
Pony magic and even its three tribes are basically technology. (Develop irrigation? Nah, we'll develop pegasi instead. Develop electricity? Nah, how about we develop unicorns?)
I've actually thrown out a bunch of reasons why Equestria is schizotech/static in terms of technology in my previous installments but I suppose I could combine everything into one post. I probably won't match the show's schizo-tech-ness though. We'll see.
I would be very interested in more on how culture develops differently for ponies. The specifics would of course be difficult if not impossible to pin down, but just speaking in generalities, there are quite a few interesting observations/conclusions to be made.
They obviously have some sort of material social class divisions, despite lacking a dominance hierarchy, as shown by the existence of nobles and the idle rich. And popular culture might focus on entirely different things than in human society, where, as stated in a previous post, ponies have less of a drive towards fictional adventure and more towards reality. What constitutes a celebrity in pony society? (Besides being Celestia.) They have the Wonderbolts, for example, famous due to existing at the peak of equine potential, and Photo Finish, who is apparently famous for being completely insane or something, hell if I know how popular culture really works.
And what of pony music? The concept of what constitutes a musical instrument is constrained by biology, just like any other tool. Traditional earth pony instruments would presumably be largely persussive, or perhaps large stationary instruments like the organ, and would be playable by any pony. Pegasus instruments might involve some sort of chimes or woodwind attached to the wings and played by flapping in particular ways, in which case playing them would be as much a performance art as it would be a audial one. A unicorn musical instrument could be literally anything that makes noise, even without externally manipulable moving parts.
Just my thoughts on a matter you didn't address.
1764998
To me, this sounds like ponies would actively influence and/or control evolution. The ability to use magic and to fly may renders some technologies useless. But industrialization and the needed things like complex machines and the like also serve to make reproduction possible to the highest degree possible, meaning that more ponies can be fed.
I don't know how large exactly cities like Manehattan are, but all ponies who live there somehow need work or anything other that earns them food. That is, unless Equestria has an economy that works different to ours.
Especially with the herd instinct that should kick in on a higher level than it does in the human psychology, there should be an effort to at least make the try to guarantee a certain living standard, what itself includes, or should include, the possibility to raise a foal.
Maybe equines can work more effective with only bad or non tools at all, also lowering the general need for technology. Yet, even if they have an economy that can provide enough wage-goods and capital with the available technology, I'd question what role basic and simple curiosity plays. A pony that wants to know whether or not, and if how, a pony's life can be improved. This question may is not limited to equines.
A certain demon who lives in a town called Cliffside, for example, seems to be interested in the art of alchemy. I'm not through it entirely, and still being in the first 20% there may still comes explanation. Perhaps it's self-preservation, something to hide himself. But at this point I like to imagine that it is curiosity that drives him forward in this sector.
One way or another, when this knowledge can get into the head of an very old/immortal alien, what would that do to this broad broad field of science, on which a whole civilisation, probably multiple millennia old, plays? In what way that earlier mentioned possibility of an, in comparison, reduced willingness to actively change the environment contradicts such curiosity I can't say, for I'm no psychologist.
1765182
Well, I wasn't implying a conscious development, simply that given magic certain pressures back in prehistory might result in that sort of species splitting. Which would then replace the economic pressure of certain tools.
And as for Cliffside, well, you'll have to see.
I was going to put in your blog for the Editorial, but it already closed. It would be great for the next issue, however. I like exploring how the world of Equestria is vastly different from ours.
An excellent series of blogs. I will make sure to accredit your work when my story gets to the point where it had effect. A sterling piece!
Maybe make a post about their evolution, how their planet physics work, how other species influence ponies and vice versa, or how magic it self works/ fits into reality.
I'll throw my bits about some of it here to.
th08.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2014/028/f/1/equestria_planet_by_1110soulite-d7447ee.png
How I see the Earth like planet that Equestria resides in.
This is a Giant planet with a mass far exceeding that of the small star that orbits it. This planet resides in a corner of the universe rich with dark energy and dark matter. both dark matter and energy to us is still quiet unknown and makes up more than 95% of are universe (26.8% dark matter and 68.3% dark energy) with actual matter being less than 5% of this.Dark matter is called dark matter because it cannot be seen directly detected; i.e. it neither emits nor absorbs light or other electromagnetic radiation at any significant level. Instead, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects on visible matter, radiation, and the large-scale structure of the universe. But to ponies dark matter and dark energy is not actually called that, its called liquid magic for dark matter, and magic for dark energy.
Unicorns being the main users of magic, have a evolve a horn that allows the manipulation of this unseen force, and so did most of the species there in some way use it to their advantage.
In a corner of the universe rich with magic weird anomalies can happen, such as a giant planet being large enough to have a orbiting small star, or a abundance of life in a single planet... the universe is full of possibilities, and its quiet fascinating.
For a molten core, I would say its a complicated gravitational field, both dark matter and dark energy have mass and affects the universes galaxies and etc. Its also a source of abnormalities if it manipulates gravity, theirs star systems with 2 - 5 suns at its core. If a planet is large enough a star it self can orbit a planet if it exist in our universe. Since the sun rotates around the planet it could be consider a satellite, This planet is several times bigger than what is currently found and is several Jupiters big. while the sun is about Jupiter size ( that's almost the smallest size possible for a sun), and the moon about either 3rd or halve the size of Jupiter. For the planet to keep / halve a molten core and with that a magnetic field, this planet would have to be in orbit of a black hole which would be the pinnacle of dark energy. But since this planet is the inhabited by creatures that use/consume this energy it keeps it in a safe orbit away.
life is full of weird things, like how does a caterpillar gain the abilities to evolve into a butterfly? why do humming bird moths look exactly like humming birds? lots of wonders and awesome things to learn so my short answer to all that is Dark Energy (Magic)
Its also a lot of mumbo jumbo creativeness / smashing puzzle pieces together
1769527
Well, we actually know what their solar system looks like thanks to a certain background.
fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/066/f/0/celestia_s_throne_room_background_by_tamalesyatole-d5xbbjd.png
(Apparently their system has a 'hot jupiter' even!)
Frankly my best guess at resolving that is in Triptych, where I just use the paradox of truths. They live on a globe, in a heliocentric system, but Celestia raises the sun and Luna the moon. In fact they are day and night incarnate. This is mixing T2 and T3 realities which is pretty far outside any physics.
1769568
Well I did my best to explain it out with Science!
I use the same for my model, giant planets tend to start out as hot Jupiter or a volcanic mess.
Wouldn't you mean a geocentric orbit, where the sun, moon and extras orbit the Earth, if Celestia is going raise the Sun instead of rotating the earth? or do their cutie mark represent what they do as Celestia rotating the earth, and luna does the same but for the night. That would make the earth and moon having a dead orbit and need to be physically/ magically flip like a pancake if it was round .3.
You also incorporate that Celestia and Luna aren't the only deities, so someone would be in charge of the magnetic field or something like that; since earth would have dead rotation.
1769719
No. I mean it is simultaneously a heliocentric system and all that entails, and Celestia and Luna raise the sun and moon. You should read Triptych and the linked blogpost to understand what I mean about them mixing reality tiers or the paradox of truths.
1769731 I did read both Apotheosis,Triptych and your other blogs its just been a long time
The reason I mention that you incorporated other immortals/ godly beings from the dragons, gryphons, and the zebras.
I'm just trying to understand your planet system if its still a heliocentric orbit and all that entails, then that would just make Celestia and Luna avatars of their celestial bodies watching over not moving them since the earth does it on its own orbiting the sun.
Unless they themselves rotate the earth to give the illusion of them raising their celestial bodies.
The Earth (when not being move by Celestia or Luna) would look like its not rotating ( dead rotation) but it still is just in a way that only one side faces the sun( kinda like the moon having a side that has never face the sun). Celestia and Luna slowly rotate the Earth the right way, this would give it the appearance of night and day cycle as in our own earth which would fit just fine into silly physics.
1769929
No, you're still not getting it. Two competing realities are simultaneously true. That's why it's a paradox of truths.
1770068
My last paragraph still explains your paradox of truths, with a working solar system model both still in heliocentric while making it seem like a geocentric orbit. Where Luna and Celestia still do raise/control their celestial bodies but in a different way. Everyone including the princess agree with T3 when the princess change the day, but in reality is T2 due to how the solar system is set up.
1770238
I don't believe you understand what I am saying, nor does it fit with what we see on the show.
1770371
, but in short to my previous comment. That it is easier to just rotate the earth than to move the sun, saves a lot energy. Not doubting the princess ability to move their celestial bodies its just less magical toll on them while achieving the same thing.
True, I guess where not understanding each other points very well with the whole physics
1770466
I understand your physics just fine, they're simply irrelevant to the conversation.
Go back and read the first chapter of Triptych and you'll see what I mean.
1770475
That's geocentric orbit, just in a mystical way
The sun is being created and set to go around the Earth, with out Celestia it extinguishes and is Night/ Darkness.
So what the moon is also being created and set to go around the Earth, with out Luna it would be eternal day.
It still is geocentric orbit if you make something go around the Earth.
This has been an awesome, insightful and interesting series! Thanks for writing it! Greenthumbed if I could
How do you think the state of diplomacy changes when other nations engage with Equestria? A fic idea I've been chewing on but likely will never write considers this from a family of griffins with prestige in diplomacy, the newest son inherits the position but he has to deal with the fact that Celestia has known him and all of his predecessors basically from childhood
1799962
It depends on whether the other nations have gods or not.
In my Triptych-verse the dragon rulers and Chrysalis are both long-runners as well. They've known Tia for centuries. If other races don't have immortal rulers, they're at a massive disadvantage. They probably are anyhow, but I'm sure if she and Luna are the only immortals, the other races all half-resent, half-fear her.
Just found this and it is a fun read.
Just a small input from me. Concerning tribalism and body language. I would imagine because the pegasi have wings they developed a more complex body language compared to their earthbound relatives. So much so that before unification, they might have not understood the other tribes very well. Which could have lead to tension from misunderstanding. Wings are indescribably important.
I thought these posts were generally very interesting, but I think you extrapolate too much from the mane six and ponyville. Your concepts about how communities operate only really seems to be true in Ponyville.
it seems that there are lots of self-interested and outright abusive ponies, and their status isn't really commented on by anyone else in society. The whole point of the Manehattan episode is that you have to be careful with who you trust, because outside of your close-knit farming community home, other ponies will straight up take advantage of you.
I think it's also a pretty safe assumption that a lot, or at least a significant number, of ponies don't actually make money off of their cutie mark talent, although I totally agree with your paragraphs about cutie mark psychosis, etc. That makes a lot of sense and meshes with what the show presents us.
My only other gripe is extrapolating the elements of harmony to be a generally-known-about thing. Nopony knows about them, from what the show tells us, other than the sisters and the mane six and Discord. I do not think that anypony really knows or would have reason to know that those artifacts exist or that those six horses in Ponyville are the embodiment of those elements.
In other words, I think the show presents a world in which the magic of friendship is actually a closely-guarded secret.
1919752
Not so much a secret as mostly irrelevant, like quantum physics is to most people.
As to the rest of it - well, it's not extrapolation from the communities and behaviors we see in the show. It's from the basic fundamentals of their construction as a species. The further you get from baseline human behavior the less you're going to see it in the show.
1919758 Welll.... if the supernatural threat knows about them, then it's kind of a problem for using them properly. So it actually makes sense that they're literally hidden and information about them is not disseminated. The only time they're on display is when it seems that Celestia sets them up to be for the purpose of Twilight completing the spell that makes her a pretty princess. I also don't think they're central to how the universe operates: Just a powerful magical set of artifacts that are useful for certain things.
I had not actually seen the first few posts and had started reading in the middle. I see now that in the first post you make some assumptions that inform your later conclusions. I'd hardly call those "basic fundamentals of their construction as a species" though.
1919779
Hearthswarming Eve, Canterlot Wedding Part 2.
Really the Tree of Harmony irritates me, because it should have at the very least been presented as an incarnated metaphor.
I would! Obviously :p They're not human, and shouldn't be constructed as such (for the purposes of xenofiction).
Canterlot wedding part two doesn't use the magic of friendship. That's actually sort of explicitly not what defeats Chrysalis. For Hearth's Warming Eve, it defeats those monsters, yeah.
1919789 I agree that they aren't human, I just disagree that some of your assumptions are required for them as a species. I think you can make them non-human and consistent with how they're presented without some of your specific assumptions.
This is a very fine series of blogs that I enjoyed reading tremendously! I do have one nit to pick with you though: horses most certainly do form hierarchical societies! In fact every herd has a least two main hierarchies: the mares and foals, and the stallions. In each one there is a rather strong pecking order (exactly as in chickens and flock oriented societies.) Horses higher up in the order get priority for resources, space, etc. In this light the highly structured unicorn nobility seems very equine in nature, as is the military-like society of pegasi.
2371381
Yeah, there's all sorts of levels of behavior I've glossed over. I focused on reproductive behavior because it's such a main driving force in evolution. Every time resources are limited there's competition, so you get hierarchies, but once you get to a decently robust civilization those pressures go away, whereas reproductive ones never do (...until you can do test-tube babies I suppose).
Anyhow, there's other things like; horses are opportunistic carnivores. You could probably take the same starting point and go completely different ways by focusing on different behaviors to spin into a social basis.
I'm glad you liked it though! Now to convince someone to write in it...
2371411
I think there are a lot of authors who subscribe to the same notions about life as a pony and the effects on both their social and technological evolution. In most of my stories I've tried to be true to the idea of ponies being ponies. Right now I'm writing a story dealing with some of the differences between ponies and zebras. I might do one in your universe, but then I have to finish reading your stories first!
1919789 It can't be that bad.
I'm sure you'll find a way for it to make sense.
Eventually.
These blogs were very cool :D
You have done all us writers a valuable service, good sir. While I tend to aim more towards horse than human, there are a lot of run us I hadn't really ever thought of, like the stuff about the cutie marks. I will be coming back to these blog posts quite frequently, I suspect.
Jeez, you make it all sound like it was actually planned this way. I'm really impressed! I'll have to mark these somehow so I can come back to them later...
Not sure if I've mentioned it before but I absolutely loved this. The whole xenological thing is a great part of why I like the show, and love reading fanfiction about it.
This series was a worthwhile read. Thanks.