MLP Original Fiction · 9:30pm May 6th, 2013
There's a certain, highly constructed category of fanfic I'd like to see more of. So, of course, I'm going to create a group for it. But first, I want to hash on a definition for the category a bit, and try for some help with the group name.
The category I'm interested in I call "MLP Original Fiction" -- really good original stuff that might not be if not for MLP, and certainly wouldn't be as awesome. It's probably best defined by example, so let's launch into some of that:
The original, defining, shining example is True Colors, which I have always referred to as "MLP Original fiction, and that's a good thing". Obviously I really think you should read it, and if you've been following me and haven't read it... well... I'm going to have to shake my head severely at you, not being in a position to do anything more. It's set in a never-before-seen part of Equestria, and it's [slice-of-life] with a cast composed 100% of OCs; brilliantly executed although a smidgen shakey on editing compared to some newer stuff. (If I'm not convincing you, read Bradel's recommendation/review of it.) If not for MLP, it simply wouldn't exist, and one of the things it does so well is build off the existing world.
The 'new' example is Days of Wasp and Spider, a SciFi set in the pre-history of Equestria with a truely epic scale. It's well-writen and looks to explain *everything*, and as of five chapters in has a grand total of two canon characters, at least one of whom is a main character (and I can't see any way for the other one not to be, but there's so far to go just to get to canon history there's no telling), and they're not even named as such. It could pass as well-executed if really bizarre original SciFi if it were non-pony -- the author even passed it off as such to one of his non-brony prereaders for at least a while -- but it's so much more awesome when considered as ponyfic.
Having talked about what MLP Original Fic *is*, let's talk about what it *isn't*. There are some really good stories around here -- that I really like, even -- that I don't count. Two good examples are Bad Horse's Twenty Minutes and Cold in Gardez's The Glass Blower.
Twenty Minutes is -- well, just go read it; trying to describe it would result in spoilers, full stop. It's well written about a really good, if very dark, topic. It's also absolutely universal. The story would work, exactly as written, if you replaced the various ponies with various humans, or various nine-tentacled space aliens, if you're into that kind of thing. The only thing it gains from being pony (instead of not-pony) is getting people who read ponyfic to maybe look at it. (Well, and various interaction elements that come with being on this site; but those are irrelevant to my point.)
The Glass Blower isn't 'MLP Original Fic' for much the same reason. It, too, is extremely well written, and it was widely described as being 'fairy-tale like'. That "With some rewrite, this could get by without pony" is exactly why I disqualify it.
Now for some grey area. Biblical Monsters has a certain level of this "rewrite out the pony, and it would still work", and that was even encouraged in some of the comments. I'm not so sure about that. It'd work, but it would work differently. Part of what makes that story work the way it does is that we know Twilight already, and we know her motivations and that she has only the best of intentions. Simply removing the 'pony' from the story places the viewpoint solely on the humans, and rather changes the 'read' of the rest of the story. Putting the dual view effect back in the story would be at least as much work as writing the thing in the first place.
So is Biblical Monsters 'MLP Original Fic' or not? I'm leaning towards not, partly I just don't want to include it and partly a 'gut feeling' that I'm going to try to identify the reason(s) for. Even though Biblical Monsters uses pony, and uses it as an integral part and uses it well, it's not 'about' pony. As identified, it could work without pony, even though it would work differently.
I have to admit, I view the concept of "stories that wouldn't exist without MLP" a little differently.
I think one of the great, great advantages to fanfiction is that it gives you an ability to tell stories that you could almost never tell in a real, outside setting. This isn't quite true. There are some people who will build worlds or universes in big, epic series and the come back to them with vignettes and short stories that basically tell small, character driven scenes. But, for example, I think of both "Amazingly Awesome Adventures" and my new story "Headlines" as stories that wouldn't exist without MLP, simply because I don't think anyone would ever read them if they weren't predicated on known characters. They're certainly not original fiction like "True Colors", though. But then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're laying out two criteria: (1) that it be original fiction and (2) that it be firmly grounded in MLP.
In any case, I think it's a cool idea.
1059344 To be perfectly honest, I'm not completely certain that I understand what I'm going for. That's why I rely so heavily on examples. True Colors and Days of Wasp and Spider definitely fall into this category, Twenty Minutes and The Glass Blower definitely do not. Beyond that, I'm rather fumbling around, and at present these are based mainly on what could be termed 'gut instinct'.
You did well identifying the criteria I've laid out so far -- I know that's what I was getting at, but I don't think it was as clear as you stated it. That's why we share ideas
With those clearly laid out, I find it interesting to note that all my examples hit (1)[fn:1], but only the two I noted for this category hit (2).
I agree with you about fanfiction being able to tell stories you couldn't in an outside setting, but I don't understand why you appear to think that goes against this. Part of why True Colors works is the way it plays off of the existing MLP 'verse. It wouldn't exist without being able to explore the similar-yet-different nature of color physics in Equestria. Something like it might exist, but it wouldn't be the same.
I'm afraid I haven't read any of your stories yet. I'll give Amazingly Awesome Adventures a look, I'm putting off Headlines along with everything else that requires anything more than Twilicorn from S3Finale (which I still haven't seen
). Predicated on MLP or not, I'm not going to pass judgment on whether it fits this category until I've read it.
Which bring me to an idea for an exercise: Is Yours Truly[fn:2] MLP original fiction? Why or why not? In any event, I'm going to take another look, to facilitate my own conclusions.
[fn:1] Well, with the possible exception of Twenty Minutes, but I'm not getting into that argument.
[fn:2] It's in the recommend box at the top of my userpage, if you haven't read it yet.
Hm. Hm. Hm.
So what you are defining is a type of story that doesn't borrow anything but the setting and must use the setting -- i.e. should be impossible or lose some of its identity without the setting. Am I getting this right? Twenty Minutes[1] doesn't fit because it doesn't really take the setting at all? It would work as a humanized story?
I'm not sure I agree.
It would work as a humanized story, sure enough[2], but an extra layer of the horror for me was having it not be set in an earthly apocalypse -- those are dime-a-dozen, we've built defenses against them -- but instead in one of a world I know well and never imagined falling so far. Further, a fresh cause of pain is having it be a world that was always like a green oasis, a place of peace and optimism. Defiling that adds to the experience.
So, I guess it does fit, in my interpretation of it. Perhaps not in yours?
My questions for you regarding this are:
a) Why just setting? Why is borrowing elements of the setting superior to borrowing a character?
b) What is gained by introducing this category? Are the stories thus delineated worthy of special consideration? Better? Need to be read different?
These aren't rhetorical questions, nor are they attack-y, I honestly want to know.
[1] Which I still have nightmares about. Well written. Boy, is it ever. Wouldn't read it again for any price.
[2] It would work in its primary guise as a meditation on the limits of us all, the smallness of our reach, and, most of all, how evil isn't some external ooze seeping in and ruining what is by rights good and pure but almost a natural state we have to fight against, singly and in groups. It's Lovecraftian, almost, but without the fantastical elements or the preposterous language to dull the edge. Gah. Just writing about it hurts.
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D'you know, I think writing fanfiction is the normal state of affairs. If you look at older literature a lot of it was based on folklore, or myths, or religious concepts -- it would never work without a sort of understanding of general principles. Much like one of the most prominent example of fanfiction, Paradise Lost, doesn't work at all unless you have some understanding of the original canon[3] -- i.e. the Bible. Oh, sure, Milton got some OCs going, but most are very AU reinterpretations of the main cast of the original work.
We lost this chummy approach where all writing is sort of commentating one upon the other[4] and all that is locked now behind the eight hundred feet tall gilded doors of Serious Proper Literature. Fanfiction (even fanfiction about ponies) is rediscovering that.
[3] And, here, for possibly the first time, the old and the new meaning of 'canon' intermingle. Joy!
[4] Don Quixote doesn't work nearly well enough without an understanding of the tropes its lampooning. It's a meta[5] fic, almost.
[5] The Divine Comedy/Inferno is a self-insert HiH with strong metafiction elements. Knighty would ban it in a thrice.
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Honestly, I'm really not sure. I think the 'using the setting' might just be low-hanging fruit. Borrowing elements of the setting isn't superior to borrowing, say, a character; it's just easier to do. It's inherently tricky to find examples borrowing something other than the setting that qualify, because it's harder to judge whether they qualify. That's what I was trying to gauge mentioning Yours Truly, which borrows characters more than anything else; dare I say to the exclusion of anything else.[fn:2]
Speaking of!
Having just read Yours Truly again the other night, I call for a minimum eighteen-hour moratorium between reading it and discussing it here. It's really bucking good, but it plays with your emotions and I want to guard against that. I want to defend against "Good gosh yes that's awesome of course it should be included" with some (pseudo-)rational discussion.
Also in counter-argument, Days of Wasp and Spider only mostly borrows the setting and mostly borrows one or two characters. It's the differences that make those mostly borrows instead of just borrows that qualify it, I think.
Also also in counter-argument, there's a fic somewhere in the bowels of Buried Treasures by the name of "Not Quite Best Friends Forever" (probably, I know for sure that the cover pic read "not quite BFFs") that, although wildly [incomplete], might just qualify. The premise, iirc, was going to be Twilight's not-quite-Mane6-grade interactions with random ponies around town.
It's not entirely the "It would work as a human story" that leads me to disqualify Twenty Minutes[fn:1], as much as the universalness of the story. It's just that this universalness means that it would work as a human story. The bones of the story (your [2]) show through no matter what guise it's in, unless you bury it deep within multiple layers of extraneous chapters.
I guess I can see your point about gaining the extra layer of horror from using ponies, but that just makes me want to file it with Biblical Monsters. I didn't see that until you mentioned it, and I still don't feel it. Maybe that means I've been reading ponyfic too long.
You're free to argue with me about Biblical Monsters, too, by the way. I could be just as wrong about that as about any of the others.
Well, I think they're worthy of special consideration, obviously, or I wouldn't be bothering to define this category
. It's not that they need to be read different (at least, not that I'm aware of); the main thing here is that I know I would love to read more stuff like True Colors, but I'm not 100% sure what that means, so I'm trying to figure out what it means so I can help other people help me find stuff that qualifies.
I note that every fic I've mentioned here so far has the unmentioned (phantom) quality (P): They're really, really good.[fn:3] Like, if I were running the Vault, they'd probably all be shoe-ins. (Days of Wasp and Spider might not be, I haven't read all of it and it's not even [complete].)
Actually, that might lead to an interesting and revealing project: Let's look at some more of the fics I consider good enough to recommend, and gauge whether they qualify. That's not really fair to you guys, if you want to participate it's asking you to read something, and probably something fairly long at that, before you weigh in. Feel free to suggest your own candidates
I was going to dismiss the [Alternate Universe] tag out of hand (because c'mon, alternate univere), but then I remembered that Days of Wasp and Spider probably has an [Alt. Universe] tag. Suffice to say that consideration of [Alt. Universe]-tagged fics must be much stricter.
[fn:4]
Hey, on that note, have you read -- no, wait, it's a Skywriter, of course you've read it. Heretical Fictions was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.
Speaking of, would you say that Don Quixote is a metafic in the same way Hoardsmiths is a metafic? (In that case the thing to do would probably be to read it side-by-side with the TVTropes page.)
[fn:1] I don't think. I might be wrong. I'm still working towards making this an objective assessment.
[fn:2] Which, the combination of that and the format of the story is what gives it so much of its power. But I digress :)
[fn:3] I named this attribute (P) by way of analogy to Bradel's (1) and (2). Feel free to propose another naming scheme if you like.
[fn:4] I do intend to do this project, but it's just a tad off-topic for this comment. I'll finish & post it later. I will say, though, in regards to A Rose is a Rose:
There's your borrowing-characters, Ghost. To the extent that Rose is Rose is MLP Original Fiction, it's lesser Original Fiction, though. If True Colors is a six-star example, then Rose is Rose is something like three. I'm not sure if this is more bias towards settings or I just don't particularly like Rose is Rose (I need to re-arrange my recommendations boxes yet).
I've got another comment at least this long I cooked up since writing this, but I need to type it up yet, whereas this I typed last night. Right now I'm just doing post-and-run; I'll throw up the new stuff latter today.
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I'm doing a drive-by posting, so let me just answer/point out two things while you do your other post and order your thoughts.
1. We have a problem inasmuch a lot of the stuff you consider is stuff I haven't read and (worse yet!) stuff I won't read for love nor money. When he recommended Biblical Monsters, Bad Horse basically said "not you Ghost." I react really badly to a certain type of sadfic/darkfic.
2. Don Quixote is a parody/commentary/trollfic. Hoardsmiths is your basic roman à clef. Heretical Fictions (which is made of win) is metafic.
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Suggest stuff then. I'd love to see what you think qualifies, and it provides a better basis for discussion. (Read True Colors first, though. Until we get a larger, solid base of examples, the entire idea pretty much hinges on that one fic.)
Feel free to invite whoever you like to come join us, too. I trust you guys in that regard. I'm going to go flag PoweredByTea and then try to craft a PM that would get Bad Horse interested.
As long as I'm babbling randomly[fn:1], I'm worried (justified or not) that I'm drifting off point, distracted by this discussion of attributes and overlap. Of course, it's also possible that my idea's being dissected really well, and I just don't like the feel of that. What do you think, Bradel: Am I drifting off-course?
Oh and by the way, here is Not Quite BFFs.[fn:2]
It's not yet 23 hours after my last post. I realize that's not what I meant, but does this still count as "later today"?
No.
I've identified (or think I've identified) three attributes a fic can borrow that contribute towards being 'MLP Original Fic': The setting, the characters, and what in the computer field is termed "Look and Feel" -- in this case, the non-setting non-character
inhard-to-define-ables that make MLP what it is.To qualify as MLP Original Fic, a story must borrow more than one, but not all three. Borrowing all three results in "This could be an episode"[fn:3], which is great and all, but I don't think is quite what I'm after. In addition, I'm focusing on fics which are really good, because that's what I want to read.
A review of some examples in light of these factors:
True Colors borrows Setting and Look-and-Feel. And it does so really well, it actually feels like Equestria. (If you haven't read it, you're missing out.[fn:4])
Days of Wasp and Spider borrows some of Setting and some of Characters, and looks to be a pre-history. It may not qualify under the final definition, which I feel would be a real shame but may be worth it.
Twenty Minutes borrows Setting, kind of. One of the things Ghost likes (quote unquote) about it is that it works by stabbing the Look-and-Feel in the face.
I think Look-and-Feel weighs a lot. Out of my five examples, all of my non-candidates lack Look-and-Feel. Days of Wasp and Spider also lacks Look-and-Feel, it's competing largely on shear awesome. I wonder if my main criteria is actually "Look-and-Feel without also borrowing both Setting and Characters"?
Hmm. Let's stretch this theory with some trickier examples.
PoweredByTea in one of his blog posts (So. I wrote a thing...) presents an [Alternate Universe] that could qualify. The major difference is the lack of the Royal Sisters (resulting in no day-night cycle, besides the obvious), with the minor differences that Rarity is Twilight's hoofmaiden, we haven't seen even any evidence of the rest of the Main 6 or Spike, and Twilight and Rarity are on a boat. I'm pretty sure that in-universe there's a good reason for Twilight and Rarity to be on the boat, though. So we've got a reasonable chunk of Setting, as filtered and stripped by the AU, and we've got Characters, again as modified by the AU. There's not really enough there for me to tell how it does regarding Look-and-Feel. I think it gets Look-and-Feel (as modified by AU of course), but I can't be sure. Maybe Ghost can help us out in this regard[fn:5]? From what I've seen, I think it does qualify, but I'd need to see more to be able to be sure.
Here, I think, is the real tell: I'll consider the fic A Door Jam [fn:6]. It's original, really well done, and it hits all of my attributes or factors above. Is it Original Fic? ...No. It'd be Original Flavor instead. Which suggests that Original Fic is almost Original Flavor, and what I'm really after is the awesome of Original Flavor but a bit more wide-ranging.
That really doesn't feel done, so I'm going to do three more examples. The Keepers of Discord got kicked into Alternate Universe by "Keep Calm and Flutter On", so the AU doesn't really count. It's about Discord and just Discord, so it doesn't get Characters, but it does get Setting and Look-and-Feel. There's also a show-style lesson at the end, for bonus points. Is it Original Fic? ...Eaugh, I guess so. It's borderline, though; it's really, really close to being Original Flavor instead.
A Perfectly Discorderly Day is a post-S3 Discord fixfic. Discord shows up at Fluttershy's house looking for a pet, and the fic wraps up with a completely character-driven lesson, possibly two. It's good, but solidly Original Flavor; it would be Original Fic if I hadn't decided Original Fic and Original Flavor are different.
Finally, Yours Truly. Definitely original, definitely
awesomegood. Due to the format, Setting basically only comes up via Look-and-Feel. Characters are solidly there, and what make it what it is. Absolutely not Original Flavor, no question about that. I'm pretty sure it is Original Fic (though I could be wrong).Another qualification: Original Fic should add something. If it were a fanfic instead of an episode, then after (if) we got over Cadence and Shining Armour "A Canterlot Wedding" would qualify.(Would it? Or would it be Original Flavor, instead? In the Oneverse[fn:7], it would definitely be Original Fic. If we had S1 and, let's see, only the first half of S2... it'd still be Original Fic. It's just so different like that.) I think some of the licensed books qualify, I haven't read any of them so I'm basing my impressions on what other people have said about them. (I notice I'm dismissing the comic books out of hand. I wonder if that's at all like how I dismissed [Alternate Universe] earlier? Of course, Kittenthumping would probably disqualify them anyways.)
One thing that's going to be hard with this is preventing the category from leaking to include something like half of fimfiction. There's that (Phantom) from earlier again...
I give up on making my footnotes blue.
[fn:1] rather than targetedly.
[fn:2] I'm genuinely sorry for asking you guys to read so much just to follow the discussion. I mean, my Read Later is practically obscene. I'm not sure if this discussion can work without examples, though.
[fn:3] AKA TVTropes/OriginalFlavor, iirc.
[fn:4] By "shake my head severely at you" I meant "What I want to threaten to do is hunt you down, duct-tape you to the wall, and read it out loud to you, preferably over some sort of P.A. system so the entire neighborhood can tell what's going on. I bet some of them will even enjoy the story, even if you don't, ya heathen."
[fn:5] You'll need your "Hipster Glasses" for this, Ghost. Yes, seriously. Sorry 'bout that.
[fn:6] From the description:
[fn:7] Where only Season One ever existed
1063781 An apology:
I was being very adamant about reading True Colors. Looking back on that, not only is it wildly unfair[fn:1], it's also extremely rude. I'm sorry.
Unfortunately (AND THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE MY EARLIER ACTIONS!!), I'm not sure if there is any other way to convey this still-being-defined concept. Even defining it in terms of TVTropes/OriginalFlavor calls for a fair body of existing knowledge to understand, and I'm not sure that definition is quite right.
I suppose what I really ought to do is trawl through your Favorites list to look for candidates. That's a 'lot' of work[fn:2], and I'm not sure I have time for it today. Reciprocating like that is the least I can do, though, given how insistent I'm tending to be. I'll take a swing at it later today or sometime tomorrow.
[fn:1] 14k words plus this thread as a minimum baseline to participate? Has my sanity fled?
[fn:2] Not that it's actually a lot of work; on some level it's fundamentally a form of entertainment no matter what else it is and I do expect that you've picked out some good favorites. What it is is fundamentally time-consuming, and I'm finding time to be an increasingly precious commodity, even narrowly edging out sleep.
Oh boy, a lot of discussion going on here, with lots of names of ponyfic I've not read flying about. So, I'll leave aside the main discussion for now, and get some secondary points out of the way.
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Okay, I just tried that argument on a friend who is my go-to for asking questions about the world of academic literature and, well, she kind of exploded at it. As in, some of the response was in ALL CAPS, which I've very rarely seen from her. I kind of felt like I'd just said "well, if your program keeps hanging, why don't you just write a program to work out if your first program halts or not." Also, I said it to Dijkstra (or at least, his ghost).
Apparently, the central problem is that as far as Milton was concerned, the Bible was real. She suggested that "the lays of Marie de France" or "any of the several hundred years of Arthurian ballads" would be better examples. Um, you'll have to direct any other questions about this in her direction, because I'm not an expert here.
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When I wrote it, that thing was actually a writer's block busting exercise based on a few random ideas I had laying around.
If I were to continue, the world it would be set in would be very different. There would be no unified Equestria, no Ponyville, and no mane six who were always predestined to be friends. Only though shear coincidence do Rarity and Twilight know each other. We would keep the magic, the ponies, and the bits of the world that do not depend on the ponies, such as dragons, the ursa and so on. So bits of the look-and-feel are kept, but other bits are lost.
PS: Chapter 1 is available va PM to anyone interested, on the understanding that it is in a rough state.
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No problem at all! I understand that, to talk about a certain type of story, I must, at the very least, read that type of story. I just don't have the time. I don't really read stories on FiMFiction anymore. No, really. I pre-read them. And that alone, I assure you, takes up nearly all of my time.
I will read True Colors eventually[1], even though I won't read some other stories under any circumstances[2]. Hopefully then I can discuss what you mean more clearly[3].
The way I understand it currently is that you divide the factors of matchup into three groups:
(1) Characters
(2) Setting
(3) Theme/Mood[4]
A match of all three makes a story, essentially, Original Flavor. Might-as-well-be-an-episode. A match of two (any two) makes it Original Fiction[5] -- stories that rely on the MLP-ness of it all, but don't mimic it completely. A match of one[6], then, makes it a...?
And what would that make my stories? They don't fit the theme/mood of MLP perfectly, being a bit different in, hah, texture. The Civil Service stories borrow the setting (though of course my worldbuilding means a lot of it is invented and thus original) and some of the characters. "Cup of Tea" is characters/setting but the mood is quite different.
[1] It was already on my elephantine Read Later list, it turns out.
[2] Me and the [sad] tag have a troubled relationship. For instance, there is no incentive you can offer me that'll get me to crack open Biblical Monsters.
[3] Reading my favorites list won't help you much. It just reveals in embarrassing detail just how sappy I am.
[4] I don't like "Look'n'Feel" as a term.
[5] Which also strikes me as an unfortunate name.
[6] Presumably a match of zero would make it not fanfiction in any way.
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In the words of Oscar Wilde, pull the other one it's got bells on[1].
Milton was a believer but the Bible can't have been entirely real for him because he deviates from it considerably and offers up inclusions from all sorts of other
fandomclassical sources. Consider the presence of Demogorgon which is an import from Plato[2]. Or consider the line "Sat sable vested night, eldest of things"[3] -- that's pure heresy, and owes more to Hesiod than the Bible, considering that it can only reasonably refer to Erebus. Or, indeed, the whole pantheon of demons that seem to predate The Fall[4].And consider Milton's creation which owes, again, everything to Ancient Greek sources -- Hesiod most of all. Consider, in the very beginning of Book I, lines 9-10:
(Bolding mine)
The doctrine of just about any Christian denomination you'd care to name is that the creation was ex nihilo. This chaos business[5] is pure Greek. That's hardly the only heresy Milton indulges in -- he also believes in monism, that's very Anaximander except that Anaximander's arche of apeiron is explicitly God. Consider Book V 468-490[6] where this is made plain with perhaps just a dash of the Great Chain of Being.
In short (too late) Milton was a believer, no doubt, but he treated the Bible as literary material as well as illustrative of the truth. And he wrote a fanfic that was a [crossover] with Greek Mythology[7].
But yes, history is rife with bodies of legend that are then mined for material and made into fanfic. The legendarium of Arthurian romance, sure, or the mythology of the Ancient Greeks/Romans. That just goes to prove my point, even if your friend objects (ALLCAPS or otherwise) to my interpretation of Milton.
[1] May not be actual quote. Offer void where prohibited. May contain nuts.
[2] By way of gnostic corruption of "Demiurgos"/Demiurge from Plato's Timaeus
[3] Book II, line 962.
[4] Including (Book II, line 967) "Discord with a thousand various mouths." That dracoequus sure gets around.
[5] Also repeated and reinforced in the legendary bit from Book II, lines 911-916.
Where the Greek connection is made even more plain by introducing the classical elements by way of Empedocles. Also compare with Timaeus (section 53b):
[6] That would be:
[7] Especially the codified sort that you might find with Hesiod. As a budding rationalist he'd like that.
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Right. I will pass that directly on. Can't guarantee you'll get a response, but if we continue playing pass the message with me in the middle, things are going to get confused very quickly.
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I did get a response, actually, and sent one of my own, but it was a lot less ALLCAPS than I feared. I actually mostly agree with your friend, who's both a lady and a scholar. You've mischaracterized her position a bit, I fear.
In essence your friend believes that Milton wrote "fanfiction but not," while I think he wrote "fanfiction and also." Still a very interesting discussion emerged about some curious details and your friend made a very salient point re: what 'real' means in literature -- to us and what it meant to the likes of Milton and his contemporaries.
Shame the discussion had to be taken off FimFic, though. Also I can't help note 1059344 is conspicuous by his absence.
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Yeah, I figured I wasn't acting as the best go-between. Plus, she really did seem quite annoyed earlier but the nature of chat messages means it's hard to judge the tone.
Okay, well, the problem at hand. Defining something that we have no definition of. Humm... how about this:
Hows's that?
1066500 Conspicuous by my absence, you say!
Well, I'm not entirely sure what's to be expected when RL intrudes and the three of you decide to turn this conversation into a rabbit hole[1]. Also... and I kind of hate to say this, but it's true, and I hope toafan doesn't take offense... I'm not sure this is a topic that really interests me enough to participate at a significant level. Maybe this ties into the fact that I'm apparently a pretty serious Original Flavor writer. But while I really, really enjoyed "True Colors", it's not the sort of thing I value very highly as an overall literary expression.
Why? Well, it takes an idea from the setting, and it explores it very well. But to my mind, it only really takes that one idea – about how rainbows work. There's a bit of canon similarity in tone – a bit – but it's very much original fiction.
I like original fiction. I like it a lot. That's why I read lots of books. And I'm perfectly cool with the (I suspect quite small) overlap between original fiction and fanfiction, but part of me feels like if you're going to borrow little enough from canon to fall into that cross-section, there's not a whole lot of point in not simply going the rest of the way and making the story truly original fiction. I don't think "True Colors" is really all that tied to MLP. Sure, MLP canon makes some explanations and choices easier to deal with since the author doesn't have to set them up himself. But it wouldn't be that hard to recreate the necessary bits outside the fandom, and it might potentially provide more story flexibility. Wizards control the weather, and a squib thinks she's found a way to replicate their work nonmagically. Now it's Harry Potter. Alien overlords control the weather, and a human thinks she's found a way to replicate their work without their technology. Now it's L. Ron Hubbard on mood stabilizers.
I'm the sort of reader who likes deuterocanonical work, and who likes the 'play' aspect of fanfiction writing[2]. Original fanfiction is something that, as much as I like it, isn't generally what I go looking for. Which is a bit amusing, since of the three stories I promote at the top of my user page, two of them are what I'd deem original fanfiction: "True Colors" and "The View from the Window". View does connect back to the canon characters a little, but not much. It's basically its own self-contained universe that just borrows bits from MLP for usefulness.
Anyway, that's probably one of the reasons I haven't gotten too involved here. Besides the fact that I hadn't had time to actually read all of what was written until just now.
Oh, also, I say Milton was just writing fanfiction. I think belief is a prerequisite of writing fanfiction. I couldn't write MLP fanfiction if Equestria didn't exist a little in my mind already. I have a very dicey relationship with Doctor Who inre accepting it as fiction. But I think I just decided at some point that it's not worth getting bent out of shape about what's "real" and what isn't "real". Why should My Little Pony be any less real simply because we can't vacation in Equestria? The meaning of the stories exists in its own right. The characters are more engaging than some "real" people I've met. It's a shared delusion any way you look at it, so what's the practical benefit of clinging to the idea that MLP is "fiction" and day-to-day life is "real"? Especially when you consider that human limitations on perception and memory arguably make our notions of what is "real" fairly imprecise anyway.
[1] I suspect the term is entirely intuitive, following from Alice's adventures, but in case it's not, it's a phrase I use to mean "a thing which grows at a rate whereby it cannot be fully explored, or perhaps cannot be fully explored with a reasonable expenditure of time and effort". For instance, the DC comics universe and the Marvel comics universe are both close to being rabbit holes in that new material appears at such a rate that, were one to start at the beginning and attempt to catch up, it would take a very large and constant effort simply to read fast enough that one wasn't falling further behind with each month's new publications. In fact, I think the green lantern stories alone may be a rabbit hole. I tried learning about the storyline there once, simply by reading wiki entries, and it became quickly apparent that there was so much material that it would take me days to sort through it. In summary.
[2] Think of a big, n-dimensional blob of information connected together in some sort of graph or lattice structure. When I say 'play', I basically mean the act of pushing on that blob of information and deforming it, and seeing what shape it will take. Or, put in a bit less mathy metaphor, imagine a very shallow stream of water. I mean the act of digging away the earth or throwing rocks into the stream and seeing how the water's course diverts. Or, put in a more traditional metaphor, imagine a cave where figures constantly walk around a fire carrying objects which throw their shadows on the cave walls for others to see. I mean changing the angle at which the objects are held, or changing their distance from the fire.
1065819
I think the 'rude' bit was referring to that entire paragraph, which comes across as flippant and, well, rude; especially if read with the wrong tone. I'm not about to edit an existing apology, either. But it looks like we're good.
Wasn't even going to try. (Hey, Bad Horse said "no, Ghost", then uh... no, Ghost.) The [sad] tag I'm going to try to keep an eye on from here forward. I think Yours Truly might be [sad], but if so it's a bittersweet positive kind of sad. I mean, yes, everypony's dead at the end Well, except for Rarity, but she's in suspended animation so it kind of doesn't count., but they died of old age, and in the meantime they laughed and loved and defeated a blizzard and I just realized I kinda envy them.
The idea behind reading your Favorites list is to find stuff I've read, so we have common ground to work from[fn:1].
I think Theme/Mood more precisely captures what I meant by Look-and-Feel. I don't particularly like the switch, not only is Look-and-Feel "my term" but I feel like Theme/Mood leaves out some of what I meant. What we loose in accuracy we make up for in concreteness, I guess. I'll try to use Theme/Mood going forward.
A (sufficiently) complete match, yes. An incomplete match, I dunno -- best case, it's kicked down a level, but I think worst case might kick it somewhere else entirely. It doesn't help that the three categories we're discussing refer to things that are actually ranges. I think I might even use two different borderlines between Setting and Theme/Mood within this one comment.
I'm not completely sure, and it does depend on degrees. Fic that can hit both Characters and Setting yet still not qualify is fairly common, it's generally known as [Dark]. Not that I'm banning [Dark], I'm sure it's possible to write a [Dark] fic that qualifies[fn:2]; all the (admittedly constructed rather than real) examples I'm thinking of twist Characters and/or Setting as part of the [Dark] by enough to cap out at around 1.5 on our three-point scale.
Not necessarily. There's a counter-example in your very own Favorites, even. Then again, that's kind of the exception that proves your point; that's really a cautionary tale about not getting AI quite right that makes much of its point by twisting something we know and love, and think would be great, just enough to make it obviously wrong[fn:3].
Really bad fanfic, obviously
. That may not be true at all, actually, put the main 6 somewhere else and really nail the characters, and you could be fine. Transplant them to Tatooine, say, and watch them flounder around and find their way to Mos Eisley just in time to hitch a ride on the Falcon; or dump them in the lower decks of the Serenity sans explanation and let them and the crew try to sort each other out.
Is it possible to do the above with setting[fn:4]? I'm not sure, but if it is I know the perfect example. Discussion question time: Is Beyond the Wall (possibly the shortest thing here, at just over 5600 words) single-match fic like this, or MLP Original Fic?
As long as I'm pondering this, I'd like some advice on whether to dismiss [Crossover] out-of-hand or not. There's three things I can think of as possible arguments not to; one of them currently exists only in my head (and I don't think I would do a good enough job for it to count), one of them is Georg's bolo-fic, and one I actually haven't read (and I think I have no intention of reading) that I know of because it was recommended by DPV111.
That's a good question, actually, and one I've been avoiding actually thinking about because it's not easy. What I wouldn't give for a demonic duck of some sort right about now[fn:5].
Twilight shows up in Whom the Princesses, but she really only makes a cameo appearance. For the vast majority of the fic, she's effectively part of the setting. Celestia, too, makes cameos, but she rarely if ever makes more than a cameo appearance in canon anyways. Scootaloo and Cheerilee cameo also. I think you nailed them all pretty much perfectly, but since nopony ever makes more than a cameo appearance and it's a largely character-driven fic about OCs anyways, that's a relatively low score on characters.
As for Setting and Theme/Mood... lemme put it this way. The footnote on that wardrobe? That's just the sort of thing the show would try to get away with if it could. It brilliantly capsulates the sort of world where magic is a real, everyday thing, like electricity or the lever (although still inscrutable), and yet foals are still told bedtime stories that stretch credulity at best.
So yes, Whom the Princesses is MLP Original Fic. I'm not sure it's as MLP Original Fic as True Colors is, but it is. I spent probably a good 15 minutes on that, so I'm not doing the others tonight.
Yeah, it kinda is. That phrasing came about because I was trying to convey as much of *gestures up* this as possible as concisely as possible. It kinda stuck because there's not any other good way to convey it without going on for at least a paragraph. (Maybe we could coin a term. RigFic (which I pronounce "ridge-fic")?) But it does severely complicate matters when you're talking about both MLP Original Fiction and actual original fiction.
1066731
I think you accidentally a word there. (As long as I'm copyediting your comment, you've got an extra 's' in "how's that", too.)
This here, I want to circle in nice, bright, thick red marker. While everything you said here is otherwise accurate, it's that 'naturally into the overall setting' that makes something MLP Original Fic instead of just more fanfic.
(Or at least, that makes it what I'm interested in. The line's a tad blurred, and I'm not certain that I'm not actively smudging it.)[fn:6] Of course, the 'best examples' part doesn't hurt either; I really do like and prefer well-written fiction.While good, the problem is that you open the door a little too wide. Leakage into less-excellent stuff is a (pet) concern of mine, but your definition (by my reading) includes Twenty Minutes, which was explicitly mentioned as not being an example.[fn:7]
[fn:1] 'Cause if it's in your Favorites, you've read it. Right?
[fn:2] Although it's probably harder to do than other tags; [Dark] seems to be nearly antithetical to Theme/Mood, which is the only criteria I'm sure I've been at all consistent in applying.
[fn:3] All of its spin-off are completely disqualified from our consideration, because, yes, they zero our measures. Our measures here don't really apply to those, though, because they have a different target than we're interested in; and if we re-calibrated for the different target they would appear to do much better.
[fn:4] It is, of course, impossible to do it with Theme/Mood, Theme/Mood simply doesn't work without one of the others to build Theme/Mood from. If you manage to nail Theme/Mood (well, actually, Look-and-Feel, because even though they're soo close Look'n'Feel is what I mean, damit) without Characters or Setting, I will include it in 'MLP Original Fiction' in a heartbeat just as soon as you convince me it's fanfiction and not ...ah... actual original fiction. (There's a fair chance I'll still read it, if you nail it that well and I'm aware it exists.)
[fn:5] A lot of things, actually, starting with access to the internet and working down through things like food, sleep, and breathing. I think it ends up somewhere around my feet.
[fn:6] Not to be egotistical, but what I'm interested in is what we're interested in. It's the very point of this entire discussion.
[fn:7] Speaking from outside the Fallout:Equestria 'verse, Twenty Minutes could maybe pick up something through tactical use of Character, but it'd lose something else in return. Specifically, it could replace the pegasus with one of the main 6, completely changing the
meaningeffect received. Don't believe me? Take two readings, one where the pegasus is some random blue-and-pink pegasus who got unlucky, and one where the pegasus is Rainbow Dash. Very different, right? Of course, that's a 'why not', but to me at least I would only have noticed it if cast from a 'why'. (FWIW I think that in-universe the main 6 have been dead for a long, long time.)1065819
After some consideration, I think Twilight Sparkle Makes a Cup of Tea is MLP Original Fiction exactly inasmuch as it's actually about Celestia.
1067210
No offense taken! You're simply not interested, same way Ghost avoids Biblical Monsters or I'm honestly surprised anyone actually likes Pinkie and the Lawnmower. Makes me really glad I brought in Ghost and then PoweredByTea, though, otherwise this would have stalled (likely for good) days ago.
Funnily, this is really exactly what makes us interested in it here.
It's also funny that you should mention View from the Window. That and Dragon and the Photograph were some of the next examples I thought of, but I decided against mentioning them for some reason. Couldn't tell you when or why, at this point.
This word's giving me trouble. I'm fine with 'canonical', but I think I've only ever seen 'deutoro-' in 'Deuteronomy'. Does it... parallel canon? Expand on canon? Fit within canon?
I understood exactly what you meant, based yes off Alice's Adventures, but I disagree with your definition. I think a rabbit hole need only be too large andor confusing to reasonably explore, not necessarily growing. This still makes the Marvel/DC comics universes rabbit holes, but for a different reason.
(That's not the only definition in use, though; horizon used it once to mean a cross between the above and 'wild goose chase' as we chased a roleplay idea. Due to circumstances surrounding the event, any further explanation risks being a rabbit hole itself; it would certainly be a rabbit trail at the very least.)
I have a lot to catch up on before I can contribute to this discussion. I read the source post, I read True Colors, and I read the first several comments. I read enough to see a call for suggestions. I read enough to think I get the underlying concept. I'm not sold on it yet, but I think I get it.
Maybe.
"MLP Original Fiction" is a category of story that wouldn't exist without Friendship is Magic, even though it's not strictly about FiM. It's the stuff that's inspired by FiM in the purest sense. It's the material that extends ideas into new spaces. Am I right?
Well, I want you all to read The Boneyard, because if I'm right it fits here. It's not a story about anything that happened on the show. It's a story about something that would be completely incomprehensible without the show. WIth the show, it's creative, awesome, and tremendously original.
Now, time to read the rest of the comment thread.
I have read the thread as well as all supplemental materials I believe to be essential. I believe I've come to a conclusion. I'm sad to say it isn't a positive one.
The concept is insufficiently defined to suffer analysis. It will, at best, warp like crazy along the path to becoming a group and a reading community. The end result may not serve your purposes at all. If it does serve your purposes, that is likely to be... coincidental. I am sorry.
I recommend putting this on the backburner. Continue thinking about it, don't obsess about it, and come back in two months with a better explanation of the concept. In the meanwhile, please do continue promoting True Colors. That's a good story. It's even more underappreciated than The Boneyard is.
1068203
OH MY YES
Sorry
. That's just the best, most accurate, most concise definition in this entire thread. I'm really glad you nailed that before you got to me and Ghost going off on a rabbit trail about elements and whatnot; that was a distraction sure enough but I was deep enough in that I couldn't see a way out and (worse yet) deep enough that I stopped seeing a reason to get out.
I know I've read The Boneyard. Not only did I (apparently) 'like' it at the time, I could tell you the main characters, the magic, and some of the plot. I certainly remember the tiger, the cave-in, and the distinct lack of unicorns[fn:1]. (Criminally, it is not in my favorites.) For the life of me I couldn't confirm or deny your judgment without another read. (That said, I believe you're right.)
1068233
Well, I... can't say I'm surprised at this assessment. The concept may be inherently nebulous. Our most concrete definition (which isn't very) is not very accurate, and our most accurate definition (yours) is wildly non-concrete.
I must confess, part of me is interested in how the concept would warp. Days of Wasp and Spider is a world apart from True Colors, and that's just one concept fork out of many possible ones I offer. But you're right, of course, that I'd be incredibly lucky if the end result served my purposes, especially as I don't even consciously know what those are. (Although that might prove to be part of the point, figuring out what those purposes are.) For now, I'll just stalk the fuck out of Epic Quality Fictions, the one other group True Colors is in.
This thread suggests to me that I may not know how to think. That might warrant a blog post in and of itself.
Oh, I ain't ever gonna stop. Never. Even if the thing hits the PFV and somehow skyrockets to the featured box (yeah, right), months and years latter I'll still be saying to anyone who asks "hey, have you read True Colors? It's really [censored] good." (Although if that were to happen, I run a very, very high risk of becoming a hipster. It'd be completely deserved, but only the hipsters ever notice or care about that.)
[fn:1] This informed part of my headcanon about the Elements of Harmony, actually. This headcanon mandates that one of the Elements *must* be an Earth Pony. Mind you, this headcanon has not been reconciled to any useful level of comprehensibility.
1068544
I have joined (your?) Buried Treasures group. Did you see my post on its forum? I recommend switching to a thumbcount metric instead of a viewcount metric. It would encourage group members to vote more often, too.
I think Biblical Monsters qualifies under the proposed rubric of MLP Original Fiction. You'd have to spill quite a bit of ink to get the same story without FiM. To write the same story, you'd have to establish the character and motivations of Twilight Sparkle beyond question, and it would just be very different. The core of the story is the question that's created by the human viewpoint of what she says. We know that she's speaking innocently, but within the localverse of the story, that's not clear. In fact, any story wherein it was made clear within the story wouldn't be the same story at all, thus giving the story a debt to its source material that cannot be repaid.
1067829
Well, that was my best attempt at the definition. Unfortunately, not having a clear idea of what it is you're going for, successfully pulling off a definition is a bit like throwing darts in the dark and hoping one hits. To be honest, I think I agree with Casual 1068233 here. You're not going to get a very concrete and clear cut definition and you may well never get one. This is probably the more usual state of affairs when trying to define genres. Just look at the difficulties that people have with defining tragedies (in the literary sense). Some stories are unquestionable tragedies while others may or may not be.
Question: does Fallout: Equestria fit? While I've not read it, I feel like I know enough about it through osmosis that your answer might be helpful.
I'm kind of assuming you're defining something like a genre here, so I have a feeling you will get less excellent stuff included and trying to produce a definition that excludes it wouldn't be helpful. Point of comparison: there are good ship fics and there are not so good shipfics but the definition of a shipfic is blind to the quality.
1065277 I'm going to go flag PoweredByTea and then try to craft a PM that would get Bad Horse interested.
Too late. Already here. Starting True Colors but probably won't finish it tonight. What about stories that seem like show episodes (Sunny Skies, I ain't got no accent, A filly's guide to not making waves)? What about Fallout: Equestria, which (like Biblical Monsters) has more impact if the reader coming into it knowing about Equestria (in this case, believing that Ponies Wouldn't Do That)? That's "material that extends ideas into new spaces."
Like Bradel, I'm unclear on the motivation. How do you want to use this "original fiction" category?
Ah, that was a good break. Two days away from the computer proved to be a good thing. (I suppose I should try mixing that in more often.) Now to get back in the swing.
1069121 Too late. Already here.
(...And I don't think that can come across any way other than rude. Stupid, stupid! 
)
"Already here" as in already interested, or "already here" as in you've been lurking the thread for a while and only just posted?
I can't speak to the latter two, but Sunny Skies would be Original Flavor. Our best definition so far (I'd say second-best, but then I'm not sure what the best would be) is that 'Original Fiction' is 'Original Flavor, Except Not', with True Colors being our main example (possible best example, as in PoweredByTea's "the best examples") of what that's like -- apart from being all-OC, it's very Original Flavor.
Including Days of Wasp and Spider may have been a mistake. I'm not completely sure, I'm developing that idea some still.
1068984
I've not read Fallout:Equestria either. Everything I know about it is either technically a spoiler, or Twenty Minutes. As of your question, I'd have said "no", but that may move. Either it'll be included under a clearer definition or there'll be a particular arbitrary rule that excludes it.
Aside
1068561
Well, I'm one of the founding members. Take that how you will.
I didn't see your post, until you linked it. That may partly be my fault (don't get me started about the mods of that group), but forum threads are pure comments. Folks only see forum-thread additions if they notice while browsing the forums or get replied-to. Will take the rest of this to the forum.
I'm aware of this (technically...
), but that's not the issue I take with your definition. The issue I take with your definition is that it includes Twenty Minutes, which I specifically identified as Not An Example. I may of course be wrong about that, but you'd need to convince me of that first. (I may have you covered there, keep reading.)
1068705
I begin to suspect it really depends on what definition we're using. To illustrate the point: Are True Colors and Days of Wasp and Spider at different points on Toafan's Sliding Scale of MLP Original Fiction, or are they in outright different categories? If the later, shall we still call Days of Wasp and Spider MLP Original Fiction?
If the later, let me try to paint two pictures with words. Picture the first:
This is the "Days of Wasp and Spider is not MLP Original Fiction" version. I shall refer to this as "Original Flavor Extended", because I'm going to be referring to it again.
Picture the second:
The unifying factor here is that these are all original fiction that also happens to be powered by fandom[fn:1].
With this version, we (I?) still need to sort out what the relevant differences are between Days of Wasp and Spider and Biblical Monsters. More examples would probably help in this regard. Also, we (again) need to decide if Whom the Princesses belongs with Days of Wasp and Spider, in with Original Flavor Plus (which is basically the same as Original Flavor Expanded), or in yet another sub-category we have yet to define.
This version is also much more genre-ized, which leads me to the question: should we apply the label "MLP Original Fiction" to the umbrella group, or to "Original Flavor Plus"? Interestingly, I think this version serves my purposes the best out of everything any of us have proposed.
Okay, let me make sure I've got everyone... 1067210 1065819
I find myself favoring the second version mentioned above, the umbrella group version. With this version, I'm envisioning a folder(bin) layout vaguely similar to that of Epic Quality Fics or Serious Stories. However, there are still some questions that need answering no matter which version we go with, and then I also have questions about specific fics; but under the umbrella group version I believe I can answer most of the specific-fic questions. The non-fic questions I have are:
- Is [Alternate Universe] ground for instant dismissal? Why or why not? I'm pretty sure this correlates strongly with which version we use, for the umbrella group I believe the answer is "no".
- Is [Crossover] grounds for instant dismissal? (And, does it make a difference which version we use?)
- Is [Dark] grounds for instant dismissal? Under the umbrella group I think not, but under Original Flavor + Original Flavor Expanded, then I think it depends on whether it's possible to write [Dark][Original Flavor]. Can anyone identify a potential example of [Dark][Original Flavor]?
[fn:1] This takes us all the way back to Bradel's two points
. Whee, nostalgia.
1077749 It seems you're trying to define a genre in order to define a genre. It's been difficult to agree on and communicate what a "serious story" is. It was possible only because we knew why we wanted the category: We wanted to read stories with philosophical depth. What you're defining seems more complicated, and without understanding what you want to use the category for, it all seems circular to me. You have some concept in your head, but you're asking us to refine that concept without explaining its purpose. So when you ask, "Should it include X?", there's no basis on which to answer that, because there's no "shouldness" here.
What I really want to know is: How did you answer an "aside" box??
1079887
Why, you're right. There's not much in the way of "shouldness" here.
...Just another clue that maybe I don't know how to think.
I can honestly say I don't really recall any 'should', mostly just a nebulous 'this category exists'. The closest I have is really a bit of a post-hoc justification (namely, "I would like to read more stories 'like True Colors' [whatever that means]"). For all it's short, that was almost certainly the most productive comment in the entire thread.
The thread was fortunately not a complete waste. I identified that my old version of the category ('like True Colors') was more like "Original Flavor Expanded", and identified a potentially-interesting supercategory. It was just wildly inefficient (and possibly a waste of everyone else's time).
Oh, the aside box? Formating trickery, especially the header. Don't worry, everything you need to know is in my backblog. Somewhere.
1080193 Oh, the aside box? Formating trickery, especially the header. Don't worry, everything you need to know is in my backblog. Somewhere.
When you ask me to go thru all your old posts to find out how, it makes Fluttershy cry.
