Nopony ever said love was easy. For Twilight Sparkle and Sunset Shimmer, this has never been more true. Especially when dealing with the challenges of ending up between the ponies they love. Sequel to The Two Between
Well that was done tastefully. If further monogamy breaking actions are written with the same skill as this then I withdraw my objections. I was just worried about this degenerating into a clopfic but u see now that my fears were unfounded.
I'm getting extremely iffy about this. This was not agreed upon, and Sunset was doing this with the understanding that it was not right. She has betrayed the relationship with her owner and mate. Even IF Twilight had given her permission off-screen or something, we see Sunset's thought process and she clearly knows what she is doing is wrong. This is a bit stronger than "relationship friction", this sort of thing is realistically a dealbreaker for most monogamous and especially polyamorous relationships where trust is even MORE important because there's no hard-line rule saying your bodies belong to each other alone. Then you add in the collar and that just adds a whole new layer of trust and expectation that was demolished.
There has to be agreements, everyone has to be prepared. Preferably present and involved. Sunset should not get to attach herself to Fluttershy after letting herself be cajoled into cheating on Twilight, taking emotional support when she should be regretting her actions and weakness. She's spent all this time hissing and punching Rarity who wanted to do essentially about the same thing with Twilight as Fluttershy just did with her. She no longer has the right to even oppose Rarity at this point because she broke the sacred trust. Trust that Twilight spent how long instilling and reinforcing? Poof, a little self-doubt and she's gone and thrown all that reassurance out the window by being the one to have done what she feared Twilight would do to her.
The next chapter better deal with this appropriately. The fact Sunset keeps getting positive reinforcement for her unsettling actions, keeps getting told it's alright and it was good - having a decision made for hers and Twilight's relationship by someone who has no say in it at all? That she's accepting this comfort and not questioning all that's wrong with the situation explicitly? And what about Fluttershy? Is Dash just going to let her seduce someone else's mate like that? LOYALTY, hello?
Ugh, this has gotten seriously screwy in just one chapter. It was going great with the Rarity thing, and the Celestia imposition to add friction and the need to adapt. Then this. I am disgruntled. Fluttershy says it's because Sunset was lonely without realizing it and apparently Sunset reacts to this 'understanding' as though it was the answer. So what does that even mean? Are we using cheating in a relationship as a gateway to "Hey everyone let's all bang Sunset"? If Twilight is okay with this, or worse - isn't and then someone talks to her and then she's okay with it, I will have lost all faith and enjoyment. May the next chapter be true.
4655510 As I understand it, your main issue is that Sunset just cheated on Twilight with Flutters. No previous agreements, no forethought, and her being told that it is "alright to do", is that right?
What led up to this event happening was her overhearing part of Twilight's talk with Celestia about finding courtesans. Other ponies for Twilight (and, unbeknownst to Sunset, herself) to sleep with. From Sunset's perspective, it sounded as though Twilight was entertaining the idea. Not going along with it just yet, but if she wanted "variety...different from what I have with Sunset..." then that sounds like Twilight wants more than Sunset has been giving her thus far. So Sunset, panicking, runs and finds herself at Fluttershy's cottage.
Flutters then tells her that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Ponies (and people) get different things out of relationships with different people. She tells Sunset that in trying to keep Twilight to herself, she's shutting everyone else out and smothering Twilight, which is true in any relationship.
(My perspective now) Flutters then goes on to show that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to love others freely. She isn't trying to steal Sunset away from Twilight, she's showing that love isn't something one can "run out of" but instead give in abundance. Fluttershy's relationship with Sunset doesn't really ruin things, it's just changed. From friendship to physical lovers. Fluttershy is still with Rainbow, Sunset is still with Twilight, and one could argue that, if Twilight is considering having multiple lovers, then Sunset should be able to as well. (Point of fact, Celestia states that the courtesans are for both Princess and Consort) Their sex scene also shows the necessity of the variety Celestia was talking about. Fluttershy loves differently than Twilight. It's not agressive. There's no dom/sub relationship. It's playful, relaxing even. If anything, Sunset just found a courtesan in Fluttershy before knowing that she is actually allowed to have one.
Yes there are things wrong with the situation, but this is LL and IJ's Equestria, where everything has a more sensual bent to it. As for Flutters and Rainbow, I'd have to look back but I think they've given "guidance" to Sunset in previous chapters, and at the very least are in a dom/sub relationship themselves and probably fine with what Flutteshy has done, if not having discussed it "off screen".
Twilight's going to be okay with it. How could she not? She was literally talking with Celestia about possible ponies for her and Sunset to sleep with. Sunset's probably going to be all upset about it and confess what she did to Twilight, Twi will be upset, and Celestia will point out that it's for no good reason since they just agreed on having courtesans.
I'm more concerned with the fact that Fluttershy is offering a probably pregnant mare alcohol, and Sunset, being probably pregnant, drinking it. I know one drink isn't going to do much, if anything, but that's a little surprising to me.
This is treading dangerously close to the line where I just start shouting "bullshit!" and "really?!" at the screen. I really hate manufactured drama for its own sake. 4655510 covered many of my concerns, and there's also the issue where if Twi really disagreed with the out-of-nowhere bullshit royal regulations, she could (and probably would) have said "have the damned things changed or I'll abdicate, flee the country, or start my own." This is starting to point in really screwy directions for reasons that look like "fake drama and senseless clop", and I hope it doesn't go there.
First off, that law thing is leaving me very, very, confused. Let's take a look at the last story. When Cadance and Shiney showed up at Twi's library they made a big deal about how this 'unorthodox' relationship had opened up a can of worms.
Shining Armor planted his hooves on his waist and gave his sister a stern look. “That can wait, Twily. And don’t give me any guff, or do neither of you realize the can of worms you two have opened with this?”
The entire conversation between Shiney and Twilight clearly spells out that the relationship between Twi and Sunset could very well invite political trouble at some point in time. Fast forward to this chapter and we get...a law stating that Twilight must have a Royal Consort and 12 backup ones on hand? What? Cadance stated in the last story:
Cadence said quietly, her hooves folded over themselves and a serious look on her face. “Celestia will be able to help some, and so will we, but the entire world is going to come down on your heads here.
And yet Celestia says now:
“Twilight, these laws are as much to comfort and reassure the ponies of Equestria that we are in the best of mental health as anything else. More importantly, it establishes our status in such a way that when we deal with the very highest nobles, they unconsciously respect our decisions based on some very ancient ingrained habits.”
What? If the ponies of Equestria are expecting the Princesses to have consorts and if the nobility has an ingrained habit of this happening then why would the "entire world" come down on Twi's head? Oh, and Cadance seems to be very well versed in this law.
I’ve a few suggestions, and Cadence sent a list of her own.
Would have been nice if she had mentioned this law back in the last story instead of making it sound like Twi needed to prepare for war...
Please, please, please, tell me this all gets addressed in the next chapter. Right now it feels like some retconning is going on.
Now, onto my second issue. 4655510 hit the nail on the head here. I have a few issues of my own to add. Let me just say that the scene with Fluttershy and Sunset was super hot. However, I just have a hard time believing that Fluttershy would convince Sunset to have sex without permission from Twilight. Fluttershy's Grand Flaw is that she wants to make all ponies happy at the expense of herself. Fluttershy also knows exactly what kind of relationship Sunset is in and has experience with how the rules work for said relationship. Not only that but she also knows that Twilight, as of right now, does not share Sunset.
Shy’s voice turned even more gentle. “I didn’t think Twilight would be much for sharing you.”
“She doesn’t like to share me,” Sunset decided to say blankly.
And yet here we have Fluttershy practically insisting that Sunset have sex right that very second... If it had been any other pony I would have been ok with it. But not Fluttershy. All those doubts in Sunset's head about "is this ok?" Yeah, Fluttershy would have had those exact same thoughts because her actions would impact her friends and as i stated before Fluttershy's biggest issue is always putting others before herself at the expense of herself.
I understand this story was written under a time crunch, what with Inky having to ship back out to the Navy. I'm beginning to fear that the time crunch may have impacted the overall story.
4655510 4655836 Look, I can totally get why people in the comments are having problems with Flutershy and Sunset's actions, but I can see some reasons why Fluttershy acted the way she did and offered what she did. The first and obvious detail to keep in mind is that Fluttershy is a submissive who's been in the game so much longer than Sunset that she's probably gone through a lot of the shit Sunset's going through right now. Fluttershy knows exactly how enthralling and consuming BDSM can be for a pony, because she's pretty hardcore with it herself. Now throw in the fact that Sunset is getting dangerously, and I mean dangerously obsessed with being the closest pony to Twilight ever.
Sunset is defining herself as Twilight's submissive first, currently, and Sunset Shimmer second. Which is a case of a fetish becoming a bit unhealthy, since it could easily turn further down the path of Sunset sacrificing her individuality completely, because she seriously hates and can't trust herself. Fluttershy notices how on-guard Sunset is all the time, trying to be the best submissive to Twilight instead of trying to be herself. She's so fixated on the idea of being the perfect pet that she can't let Twilight's friends 'threaten' what Twi and Sunny have together, like in the case of Rarity. Rarity basically out and out tried to tell Sunset that even though Rarity loved Twilight, she was stepping down and bowing out because Sunset was more deserving, but Sunset still percieved it as a threat. Sunset is not being a rational pony, and hasn't been for a while. The fixation, the pathological need to be nothing more than Twilight's pet is screwing a lot of things up. And Fluttershy is a pony who reads body language very well. You have to, around so many animals.
I believe what Fluttershy was trying to accomplish through having sex with Sunset would be along the lines of trying to show Sunset that there's more to her than just being Twilight's sub. Fluttershy was reminding Sunset that her pleasure didn't have to start and end with Twilight's pleasure, and that Sunset herself didn't have to start and end with what Twilight wants from her. Fluttershy saw that Sunset was getting too wrapped up in being Twilight's pet to be herself as well. She needed a way to convey to Sunset that Sunset was worth more than that, and she figured that a sexual encounter would be a way to convey what she needed to convey in a way that Sunset would be receptive to. Think about it - A great deal of Sunset's life revolves around sexual and non-sexual power-play. A great deal of how Sunset currently understands herself and Twilight is through sexual dynamics. So how better to remind Sunset of herself than though helping her explore a different side of sex? A less extreme kind of sex? It may seem strange, but I know Fluttershy's intentions were not romantic, and I'm pretty sure her intentions weren't entirely sexual either. I believe Fluttershy's intentions were to use the sex they had as a therapy, of some sorts, or an intervention in a way Sunset would understand. Words haven't been doing shit this whole time, if you'll kindly remember. Every time someone talks to Sunset, she twists things and gets more angry and confused. But actions, instincts, and sex are all things she will understand intrinsically at this moment, so I feel that's why Fluttershy acted how she did in this chapter.
4655710 The thing you're not getting is that Sunset did not have permission to run out and find a new lover out of the blue. Even in a vanilla relationship what Sunset did isn't cool. With the relationship that Twi and Sunset have it's even less cool. Especially when you consider that these two were so serious about how this relationship worked that they drew up a physical contract, wrote out all the rules, and then signed it.
The main issue here is one of trust. The whole time Sunset was having sex, Twilight thought she was at Rarity's helping clean up. How can Twilight possibly react positively to that? Why should she be happy about that in any way, shape, fashion, or form?
I'm kinda agreeing with 4655836. This feels like manufactured drama. It also feels like a set up for a future, "Twi/Dash tag team the naughty subs" scene. Could be wrong, but surely one could see why I think that.
4656250 I completely missed that bit (Cadence from the last book and Cadence here), but that is a major issue. Nothing about this new Royal Law makes sense in the context of the previous book.
4656282 you make an excellent point and it makes sense that she'd twist words, she's been doing it her whole life, I find irony in the fact that she's trying to be owned by Twilight but it's still the fear of people taking Twi away from her, overall while I understand the misgivings this isn't about facts but emotions, and the writer managed to make Flutter's actions here feel right, he could have botched it majorly, also I am under the impression that this "law" is a hoax manufactured by Celly just to make Twi and Sunset come out of their shells, she feels that they have been turtling up their feelings and need pressure to get out, Honestly I'd say Fluttershy is the most intelligent person here, having dealt with people with emotional issues, words and logic will accomplish jack shit, you need to break though on an emotional appeal, one that they cant twist and edit in their minds.
4656282 My problem isn't one of motivation. Fluttershy made some very good points when she was talking to Sunset and Sunset probably did need a form of sex that wasn't the master/slave set up she has with Twi.
The problem most of us are having is that both Fluttershy and Sunset went ahead with the sex knowing full well that Twilight did not give Sunset permission to be with any other ponies. My first comment on this chapter gives more details on what was wrong with this whole thing.
Okay, I've tried to keep out of the comments and let discussion handle things, but I feel a need to say my piece here.
First off, the political angle to things. I tried to imply (But apparently did not do strongly enough) that the law Celestia is dredging up is ANCIENT. It is also a law that Cadence DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT. Cadence's list has everything to do with household staff (Meaning the Maids, the butlers, et Cetera) and nothing to do with Celestia bringing up the Attendants concept. Why Celestia is doing this is explained later. When Celestia talks about using this law to impress the NOBILITY, she is not talking about the common people of Equestria. They are two entirely distinct groups with two entirely distinct layers of morality that sometimes disagree with one another. I.E Average Every Day America and the Celebrity / Rich person Hollywood culture.
(Also: The reason it didn't come up in this fic was because it would've made it another ten chapters long, and Inky didn't want that.)
Secondly, Why did Fluttershy do this? She has her reasons. They will be explained. It's not in the next chapter because this kind of thing takes time to get to in the course of the story. Yes, I've taken all of this stuff into account. SUNSET IS EFFECTED BY THIS DECISION AND IT HAS CONSEQUENCES.
FFS guys, have I not yet proven that I know what I'm doing here?
And guys? I discarded the "This kind of relationship thing doesn't work and everyone knows it doesn't!" Argument from my consideration when I wrote farking Musical Relations and Princess Alluring. Some things in my relationship fics are going to be a little bit out there and a little bit divorced from total reality.
If I was going for one-hundred percent real life accuracy, I wouldn't be writing shipfics about lesbian Incest bondage ponies and their bisexual buddies, Princess Alluring would never have happened, And frankly speaking Twilight would have told Sunset to go pound sand instead of getting into a relationship with an emotionally unstable person in the original Two Between. Chant the MST3k Mantra, and let me tell the story, please?
Oh and yes, I am frustrated a bit here, and I apologize if that comes across as such.
Ah, there's the Politics I like to see in my ship-fics. Wait, what?? In all seriousness though, the politics make the story feel "grounded" to something. Like all this sex and bondage has impacts on the world around it. And quite frankly, it works.
4656829 It's not a case of "we don't trust you" (at least for me), just a pile-up of "wait, WTF just happened?" I mean, sure, I haven't seen the plan for the whole story, but it seems frigging odd that such an apparently important Royal Law hasn't been enforced on Cadence, Princess of freaking Love, but is being enforced on Twi. From the reader's viewpoint, that's all kinds of nonsensical.
Is it? Why would Cadence, a Princess who's very nature has lent herself to a very, very deep and abiding and might I add STABLE relationship with Shining Armor, need to have this law enforced on her, or even be aware of it? She has the kind of fairytale romantic relationship that would basically preclude any suggestions that she's not getting enough in the sack, or isn't emotionally stable. Celestia would have absolutely no need to dredge up a millenia old law about having sexual partners to keep you on an even keel to somepony who, by all accounts, is basically in a perfect relationship.
It wasn't my intention to frustrate you or make you think I was on some crusade to rip apart your story. I trust you to deliver an overall package I'm happy with by the time this all ends. Doesn't mean I'll be happy with every point along the way, but I am confident you'll deliver where it counts.
but it seems frigging odd that such an apparently important Royal Law hasn't been enforced on Cadence, Princess of freaking Love, but is being enforced on Twi.
This. This is what caught me off guard. Still, you want trust. So, I'll trust we'll get an adequate explanation as to why Cadance, who's been an alicorn princess far longer than Twi, is not subject to this law and Twi suddenly is.
As for Fluttershy... I think we're destined to have opposing view points when it comes to Fluttershy's characterization.
A shame you didn't hold off commenting about the law stuff. I was curious if anyone was going to offer a counter to my points based on their own interpretation of what was going on.
I mean, half the reason I comment is to get some discussion going from other readers. It is certainly not an attack against you and Inky. Sorry if I came off as a douche. Not my intention.
*Sigh* Sorry too. I didn't mean to get a little... angry there. I was extremely flustered because several of these points I thought I'd actually explained pretty well. It irked me badly when all the work I put into trying to make sure this stuff was justified just... went over people's heads completely.
4656786 Hrrm. My interpretation of that chapter would be that Fluttershy used a little booze and a lot of lovebombing to seduce Sunset while the poor mare is in a pretty bad frame of mind.
Which is horribly manipulative of our shy little pony, and I'm looking forward to where she's going with this wicked scheme of hers.
EDIT: Of course, Fluttershy may have done it this way so she'd conveniently have ways to defend Sunset later and keep Twilight's focus on her - convenient, because she seems to have a lot she wants to say to Twilight anyway.
4657155 Oh, shit .. I really, really didn't mean to devalue non-sexual physical intimacy, and I'm sorry anything I said could be construed as having that bent. Non-sexual physical intimacy is amazing, and I can't get enough of it. I just have problems talking about sexual physical intimacy, because I don't really understand it myself. Not that that's an excuse. I maybe should have read through my comment a couple more times before posting? My bad.
I definitely agree that Fluttershy's continuation of the situation in a sexual way might not have been the best choice, and it does feel out-of-character for the Fluttershy most readers are more comfortable with. getting Sunset to have a more meaningful, intimate relationship with somepony that, as you mentioned in your comment, is less extreme and comes without the confusions and complications that sex could bring on an unhealthily submissive mind would probably be better in the long run. So I'm not saying Fluttershy made a good choice or guided Sunset into a good choice, hoever you wanna look at it. But I can understand why, given the situation and the varying experiences that this particular Fluttershy has, she would go in this direction. She probably doesn't really know Sunset Shimmer well as a friend, based n what we know of them. But she knows the kind of thing Sunset has been craving sexually, up to and possibly including what Sunset Shimmer has been missing sexually and therefore doesn't even know she craves. Her knowledge as a submissive herself runs head-on into her nearly-overpowering instinct to nurture and heal, and we're left with an explosive pile of pony sex that's gonna cause problems later. I dunno.
Anyways, thanks for your insightful comments on the lively debate that seems to have started. I think you've brought some interesting points to the table on all sides, and it was great getting to hear such a rational and well-reasoned voice. And thanks for calling me out on my implications of non-sexual physical intimacy as being lesser; I'll try to do better at watching my language surrounding that issue in the future.
My biggest problem is is that now I have to sit here and stare at the rest of what we've written and trying to strangle my self-doubt over how well I've actually explained / conveyed things and ripping apart things to try and make sure all the mechanics come through.
4657247 Eek. I hate the idea that I had a hand in introducing self-doubt into your master plan for the story.
I say stick to your guns. We might not get it all at first but we'll get it by the end.
Look at it this way. We wouldn't be in here writing comment books if we didn't feel emotionally invested in this story. I've read dozens of stories where I did not say one single word on each chapter. With this story I can't shut up(much to your chagrin).
Be happy that you've created a story that really draws us in. Even if we get a bit unruly when we're not so sure what is happening at the moment.
Slow down, LLIJ. No one is attacking you. You wrote something in a manner that is frankly offensive from a moralistic, realistic, fictional, objective, subjective, and in-continuity character viewpoint. You cannot tell me you did not realize this would garner mixed feelings after getting a lot of people emotionally invested into your world - and thus been prepared for confusion and anger, because that would be silly and I respect you too much as an author to hear that. On my end I don't even care about the political aspect - that was actually a good idea as far as I'm concerned.
But as Strange Reasoning pointed out, the -tone- of the story surrounding what Fluttershy has done, regardless of her not-yet-apparent reasons, makes it seem like what happened was a good thing. THAT I find offensive. You are writing for an audience that is spotted with those of us who live the BDSM/kinkster and/or polyamorous life and so far you've been close enough to the mark on each point that NOW saying "I don't care if it's realistic." just seems even more out of place. Again, not with the politics thing - I liked that, that's good friction and presents a problem that is psychologically sound as an obstacle for all parties involved. That's GOOD, two thumbs way up.
Now, as stated, no one is attacking you. Even I'm not, and I'm one of the quickest-tempered and vitriolic people you'll have in your comments in that I've spent most of my years on this site embroiled in multiple arguments and the like. If I'm not attacking you, then please trust me that no one else wants you to be angry, either (aside from the randomly-passing troll, but I'll probably jump on them first). We are legitimately at peace with you, and do not love you any less.
Bottom line, it's not that what you were trying to convey went over anyone's head - I don't think. It's that it went the opposite direction. I think most of us did state we're hoping the next chapter deals with the major breach of trust and relationship imposed by Sunset's weakness, and Fluttershy's leading her astray - and the fact that the story confuses us at the end by making it sound as if this is a thing that should have always happened going forward, that we have spoken of said hope shows we do still trust you to deliver but we're not happy with what's just come up. Surely, even with the omniscience of the author who understands accurately what was put down because you know where it's going, you understand our concerns and consternation by looking at it from the perspectives we've shown you?
(Also, as to the Cadence-not-having-to-do-this issue some have brought up. You guys really need to ignore that. Cadence is not an Equestrian citizen and not bound by Equestrian national royal-law. She's the sovereign entity of the Crystal Empire, they likely have their own laws. Come on folks. LLIJ's got that part down pat.)
4657154 OK, let's back up. Who requires that this law be enforced in Twi's case? Why is it, being a Royal Law, not enforced on all princesses? And why should Princess Twilight "I didn't ask for this, reacted poorly to the idea, and don't give a fuck what anypony thinks" Sparkle go along with it? I ask because I am honestly confused.
(Also, as to the Cadence-not-having-to-do-this issue some have brought up. You guys really need to ignore that. Cadence is not an Equestrian citizen and not bound by Equestrian national royal-law. She's the sovereign entity of the Crystal Empire, they likely have their own laws. Come on folks. LLIJ's got that part down pat.)
Hmmmm. The Crystal Empire thing is relatively new, and it's appearance was pretty much a surprise. Before it was around Cadance was an Alicorn Princess who lived in Equestria. Thus the law should have applied to her. The fact that it didn't kinda suggests that Celestia is trolling Twilight. Which is funny but also a bit weird.
I just want you two to know that I'm sorry I got kind of off kilter there. I'll address your points later tonight, after I've had some time to chill out and try to degauss my brain.
I know. I suppose it stems mostly from me having all this attention and wanting to be worthy of it, you know? I want to make sure everything comes across RIGHT.
Well, hugs for you. Simmer and relax, then come tell us your thoughts. I hope we've communicated our viewpoints well enough so that you can see the readers' angle.
I really do. There's a lot I'm going to need to say, but I'm too wound up right now to put it down without it coming out badly.
I am incredibly flattered that you've all taken the time and effort to feel this strongly about my work. It is a sign that I am, perhaps at last, doing something right. I hope I can meet those expectations.
From what we can tell, Cadence wasn't... actively a princess, so much as she had the title? In the sense that Blueblood is a prince (likely of the old Unicornian royal line that has since become defunct), but has no royal station. I mean, do you send active and practicing royalty to baby-sit for random Canterlot families?
Obviously we don't have the full story, but I'm going to say that the Empire issue was basically Cadence's switch to royal-active from royal-in-name. Which also transferred her citizenship at the same time, since you can't have an independent country ruled exclusively by a foreign national.
4657493 Dude. You are totally worthy of all the attention. You are a kick ass writer. You have the skill and drive to pull stuff like this off. Don't doubt your talent over silly misunderstandings.
I think the problem here is that it's hard to put aside the big picture and only focus on the little pieces of info the reader is getting fed on an individual basis with each chapter. All these questions could certainly be answered in the next two to three chapters. Thing is we don't know that so it catches us by surprise and in true internet fashion we post comments about it.
4657558 Well, you do have a point. At the same time this right here,
Cadence wasn't... actively a princess, so much as she had the title?
can be applied to Twilight. I wouldn't call what she is doing now being an active princess.
Of course, in canon Twilight has the exact same thoughts and doesn't get her real duties as princess until she gives Tirek the beat down. I doubt we'll see that happen here(though a BDSM style Tirek fight would be a highly entertaining read. ). Maybe one can't be a true Princess until you have the proper harem? ... Still gonna lean towards Trollestia here.
4657220 I could never imagine Fluttershy being that manipulative. Though I can see how that scene can be read in such a manner. I honestly don't think she was being manipulative. I really feel her intentions were to try and help Sunset.
I think the only problem I have with that theory is Fluttershy shows no sign of inner conflict, no hints of indecision or awareness of a better course. I can buy she'd mess up. I'm less able to believe she'd mess up so single mindedly and resolutely. But, I admit, this hinges on believing Fluttershy is exceptionally wise. Canon is kinda ambivalent on that point. Especially after S1.
For me personally, it's not a matter of being wise or not. It's simply that Fluttershy is the last pony to ever hurt a friend intentionally. Fluttershy had first hand knowledge that Twi was not sharing Sunset. Thus sleeping with Sunset would most certainly hurt Twilight.
Now, if Fluttershy was somehow certain that doing this would not hurt Twilight in any way then I could buy it. But I don't see anything like that in this chapter.
4659663 I find her use of the Stare in Bats to be a bit on an anomaly. In fact, I find the best examples of Fluttershy in season 1 and 2 and her use in seasons 3 and 4 to be a bit odd. In all of season 4 I really only liked how she was handled in Filli Vanilli, that felt far closer to Fluttershy than Bats or It Ain't Easy Being Breezies(this one in particular made me sad. It was her key episode and it felt very ho hum...).
Fluttershy has shown she's capable of getting caught up in the moment, too, a la Iron Will
Iron Will was a unique case. She was given an entire seminar on being more assertive and thus her repressed anger boiled to the surface over time. It also wasn't a single moment either. It got worse as time went on. If she didn't have so much anger pent up from allowing herself to be a doormat, then her reaction to the seminar wouldn't have been so extreme.
In the context of this story, it's pretty clear Fluttershy is not acting out of pent up sexual frustration. Thus, I feel she would have thought about the big picture and how her actions would affect one of her best friends.
It's just that, on a personal level, I cannot see how Fluttershy would simply ignore the obvious fact that this particular act would hurt Twilight. It's just so obvious that of course having sex with your best friend's significant other would hurt said friend. If Fluttershy had been led to believe that Twilight was ok with Sunset having sex with another pony(and then later finding out that wasn't true), then I wouldn't have had a problem with this scene.
Ok, I've harped on this enough. I'm gonna shut up about it and wait and see how it all plays it. No need to keep shoving my view point down everyone's throat.
Honestly I'm getting the impression that the issue [both in and out of story] is overthinking, everyone gets so wrapped up in the torrent of thoughts and worries that they cant just feel what they want to feel, It seems the story is going in a harem type direction, thus Sunset needs to see how a sexual friend can have a place in her heart without detracting from her True love for Twilight, to help her distinguish her love from her possessiveness. Now maybe this will have repercussions in the future, maybe it wont, but at that moment it seemed to be the best course of action for the story.
4659512 I'd like you to know that a very important scene in an upcoming chapter has been much extended to address this issue. The original scene was much shorter for the sake of brevity, but I think it has been much improved by the extension.
I'd like to apologize for my "I don't care" crack. That really doesn't show my feelings and was a simplification borne of frustration. I DO Care about getting these things as close to life as possible, but sometimes I have to take certain liberties to advance a point. I swear to Hades I'm going somewhere with this plotline, and I really hope I've ironed it out enough to address your concerns. Fluttershy's reasons for doing what she did are very strong, I think. It's going to take another chapter or two to GET That explanation, but it is coming. I hope it works for you, at least. >_<
As to the rest of your thoughts... ergh, A big problem here is that sometimes I fail to remember that my whole running theme of "Some characters know things other characters don't and that creates interesting stuff." Doesn't always translate very well. Sometimes, I omit details and parts of conversation that I should probably keep in. For this, I take responsibility, as I probably should have gone over more of this information earlier in the story than I did.
I know there's a lot I'm missing here, since I'm a little tired and it's 4am, but I hope the rest of this story successfully answers your issues. If you'd like something SPECIFIC addressed I'll give it a go in the morning. THe same goes to anyone else, but keep the questions simple, okay? I'm trying to keep spoilers down.
4660426 That's good to hear and I'm really looking forward to this extended scene. Again, sorry if I came on too strong with my comments. I never intended to derail you with them.
4659981 Ok. Seriously. Where were you during the Twilight Shadow stories? I would have loved to bounced all my ideas off of you then.
So I don't find my sympathy for her dropping, because you reminded me to look at her differently. And then when I did, I found this. What strikes me is the elegance of the primary manifestation of her inner discord. Namely, she won't practice the elements of harmony to herself. She is unkind to herself, in being ruthless and hard to herself. She is dishonest to herself, in not facing what her demons _are_. She is being miserly toward herself, in treating herself as a lesser being compared to Twilight and Celestia. She is being disloyal to herself in that she has given up on being her own advocate. (Abdicating her self interest to Twilight in despair.) She is being joyless in that she has cut herself off from so much of the world. Twilight is her addiction, not her joy. Thus, she has a destructive synergy, an enmity to herself. The inverse of how she strives to treat others.
She is living a double standard. She's a friend to others (if they don't threaten her) but she's not a friend to herself. That is a fundamental discord she has to resolve, in order to heal.
You're closing paragraph is very well done and sums up your view nicely. Your whole argument certainly made me less angry with Sunset as a whole.
I still don't feel sorry for her, per se, but I'm not wishing she gets run over by a steamroller now, so that's progress.
And I know that reply took a long time to write up. Thank you for taking the time to do so. I really appreciate it.
It does seem that at this point in the story, when it comes to Sunset's reformation, her relationship with Twilight is causing more harm than good. Which is kinda fascinating since they started this with the intention of it helping Sunset. I am curious how long it takes either Sunset or Twilight to realize what's happening and what steps they will take to correct it.
4661488 That's a deep and fascinating look into Sunset's psyche.
Because she's clearly _trying_. But something's not clicking.
I think our views on "try" might differ here. I would say that she did try back in the last story and even made some progress. However, as of chapter 5 of this story I don't really see her trying anymore. She has her relationship with Twilight and that is now her focus. Everything revolves around that. She attacks Rarity because of that relationship and then outright refuses to face why what she did was wrong because, to her, she was defending that relationship.
Thus, she isn't trying to get new friends or learn friendship anymore. She's trying to lose herself in Twilight. You already made that point very well in your last reply.
I'll admit that Twi and the gang have not encountered a pony with the mental world view that Sunset has and that is influencing why they seem to be making all the wrong moves when it comes to correction. Though I still feel that the responsibility falls on Twilight for this simply because she has put herself into a position to assume that responsibility, both as a Princess and as a Mistress.
I think we're all in agreement that Sunset cannot be helped until everyone stops what they're doing and get Sunset some mental therapy.
Well, this is a wrench in the works of their relationship (Sorry I didn't comment earlier BTW, I had some computer issues). Too bad Sunset only head part of that conversation. Yikes, I think that if Celestia can't help (and maybe even if she can), Sunset should get some therapy, there is no way that kind of emotional dependency is healthy, even in a relationship like Twilight's and Sunset's. If the hints that Sunset is pregnant are true, should she really be drinking alcohol? While I think that the scene with Sunset and Fluttershy came out of nowhere just a bit, I think that Shy is just trying to help the emotional mare calm down and relax a bit, which Sunset probably really needed.
I don´t really like the idea that ther is a silly law that say Twilight has to have sex with others, why? I know this is probably still a Clopfic, but even then i don´t understand Celestia which really want Twilight have many Stallions or Mares to fuck.
But well if she just think of the main Six so far, then i probably have nothing against it. I just don´t want to see Sunset sad, and yeah i know there is something not right with her, but i don´t like it if there is some mighty pony, which think she could do with others what she want. There can´t really be a reason other then Celestia want it that way, because she believes.....ect. I mean if this would not be a Clopfic, then friends would be enough right?
Think nothing about it, it is more the thing that Celestia is more or less forcing Twilight to do such things which is anger me, it always anger me a bit.
I really like your story and i first will see how it turned out befor vote for it in either way.
Jesus H is the comments for this chapter riled up. Personally I would love to finish reading this to get my thoughts straight but do have to say that the easedrop misunderstanding was something I didn't really expect to see in this well written fic as I feel that is just a trope that adds unnesusary BS to all the good stuff already there.
Also it's getting harder after the last couple chapters to even tolerate the Asylum level craziness from Sunset Shimmer as this story continues.
This is just one of those stories where I really like the writing but I can't empathize with any of the characters at all because none of them seem to have their heads on straight and I can't move forward with reading this because of it.
Okay, now this has wandered into 'idiot ball' territory. It's one thing to have characters with believeable flaws and another to shoehorn them into complete self-destruction because a story needs conflict.
...and the pony imitator fitter things (Sunset didn’t particularly care what they were called and only remembered the name was hard to spell anyway)...
I'm sorry, Flutters knows Sunset's pregnant. She wouldn't give her fucking hard liquor. The wine is one thing, although FASD is only known to be avoided 100% of the time in complete absence of alcohol, some doctors think that the beneficial effects of wine outweigh the risks. But reading about someone who always has the utmost care for others, especially babies, putting the unborn at unnecessary risk makes me literally ill.
6589750 I know, right? Yet it seems to have been completely missed in all the other drama around this chapter.
I can understand the whole cuddling and massage thing. Maybe even the kissing and sex; it's not exactly the best or most rational decision, but they'll figure out how to handle it. But the one other pony who knows that Sunset is probably pregnant giving her high octane booze... I'm a bit baffled anyway how all the other drama in the story itself completely overshadows the whole pregnancy thing. Rivaling it, yes, maybe even distracting from the problem, but I would think that it's a bit higher on Sunset's list of priorities. Or maybe she's just in denial. I've given up on trying to figure her out in this story.
F this story, sry but Sunney being upset for conveluted reasons of Rarity being interested in Twi. Than Sun suddenly jumping in bed with flutters, yeah makes total sence. Wtf, yeah done here. Next time try to make shit make sence.
Well that was done tastefully. If further monogamy breaking actions are written with the same skill as this then I withdraw my objections. I was just worried about this degenerating into a clopfic but u see now that my fears were unfounded.
I'm getting extremely iffy about this. This was not agreed upon, and Sunset was doing this with the understanding that it was not right. She has betrayed the relationship with her owner and mate. Even IF Twilight had given her permission off-screen or something, we see Sunset's thought process and she clearly knows what she is doing is wrong. This is a bit stronger than "relationship friction", this sort of thing is realistically a dealbreaker for most monogamous and especially polyamorous relationships where trust is even MORE important because there's no hard-line rule saying your bodies belong to each other alone. Then you add in the collar and that just adds a whole new layer of trust and expectation that was demolished.
There has to be agreements, everyone has to be prepared. Preferably present and involved. Sunset should not get to attach herself to Fluttershy after letting herself be cajoled into cheating on Twilight, taking emotional support when she should be regretting her actions and weakness. She's spent all this time hissing and punching Rarity who wanted to do essentially about the same thing with Twilight as Fluttershy just did with her. She no longer has the right to even oppose Rarity at this point because she broke the sacred trust. Trust that Twilight spent how long instilling and reinforcing? Poof, a little self-doubt and she's gone and thrown all that reassurance out the window by being the one to have done what she feared Twilight would do to her.
The next chapter better deal with this appropriately. The fact Sunset keeps getting positive reinforcement for her unsettling actions, keeps getting told it's alright and it was good - having a decision made for hers and Twilight's relationship by someone who has no say in it at all? That she's accepting this comfort and not questioning all that's wrong with the situation explicitly? And what about Fluttershy? Is Dash just going to let her seduce someone else's mate like that? LOYALTY, hello?
Ugh, this has gotten seriously screwy in just one chapter. It was going great with the Rarity thing, and the Celestia imposition to add friction and the need to adapt. Then this. I am disgruntled. Fluttershy says it's because Sunset was lonely without realizing it and apparently Sunset reacts to this 'understanding' as though it was the answer. So what does that even mean? Are we using cheating in a relationship as a gateway to "Hey everyone let's all bang Sunset"? If Twilight is okay with this, or worse - isn't and then someone talks to her and then she's okay with it, I will have lost all faith and enjoyment. May the next chapter be true.
4655510 As I understand it, your main issue is that Sunset just cheated on Twilight with Flutters. No previous agreements, no forethought, and her being told that it is "alright to do", is that right?
What led up to this event happening was her overhearing part of Twilight's talk with Celestia about finding courtesans. Other ponies for Twilight (and, unbeknownst to Sunset, herself) to sleep with. From Sunset's perspective, it sounded as though Twilight was entertaining the idea. Not going along with it just yet, but if she wanted "variety...different from what I have with Sunset..." then that sounds like Twilight wants more than Sunset has been giving her thus far. So Sunset, panicking, runs and finds herself at Fluttershy's cottage.
Flutters then tells her that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Ponies (and people) get different things out of relationships with different people. She tells Sunset that in trying to keep Twilight to herself, she's shutting everyone else out and smothering Twilight, which is true in any relationship.
(My perspective now) Flutters then goes on to show that it isn't necessarily a bad thing to love others freely. She isn't trying to steal Sunset away from Twilight, she's showing that love isn't something one can "run out of" but instead give in abundance. Fluttershy's relationship with Sunset doesn't really ruin things, it's just changed. From friendship to physical lovers. Fluttershy is still with Rainbow, Sunset is still with Twilight, and one could argue that, if Twilight is considering having multiple lovers, then Sunset should be able to as well. (Point of fact, Celestia states that the courtesans are for both Princess and Consort) Their sex scene also shows the necessity of the variety Celestia was talking about. Fluttershy loves differently than Twilight. It's not agressive. There's no dom/sub relationship. It's playful, relaxing even. If anything, Sunset just found a courtesan in Fluttershy before knowing that she is actually allowed to have one.
Yes there are things wrong with the situation, but this is LL and IJ's Equestria, where everything has a more sensual bent to it. As for Flutters and Rainbow, I'd have to look back but I think they've given "guidance" to Sunset in previous chapters, and at the very least are in a dom/sub relationship themselves and probably fine with what Flutteshy has done, if not having discussed it "off screen".
Twilight's going to be okay with it. How could she not? She was literally talking with Celestia about possible ponies for her and Sunset to sleep with. Sunset's probably going to be all upset about it and confess what she did to Twilight, Twi will be upset, and Celestia will point out that it's for no good reason since they just agreed on having courtesans.
I'm more concerned with the fact that Fluttershy is offering a probably pregnant mare alcohol, and Sunset, being probably pregnant, drinking it. I know one drink isn't going to do much, if anything, but that's a little surprising to me.
This is treading dangerously close to the line where I just start shouting "bullshit!" and "really?!" at the screen. I really hate manufactured drama for its own sake. 4655510 covered many of my concerns, and there's also the issue where if Twi really disagreed with the out-of-nowhere bullshit royal regulations, she could (and probably would) have said "have the damned things changed or I'll abdicate, flee the country, or start my own." This is starting to point in really screwy directions for reasons that look like "fake drama and senseless clop", and I hope it doesn't go there.
Ah, the plot thickens...
I suppose Rarity could be added for Twilight's 'assistant', and Fluttershy for Sunset. Makes sense to me.
Ok, I have two major issues with this chapter.
First off, that law thing is leaving me very, very, confused. Let's take a look at the last story. When Cadance and Shiney showed up at Twi's library they made a big deal about how this 'unorthodox' relationship had opened up a can of worms.
The entire conversation between Shiney and Twilight clearly spells out that the relationship between Twi and Sunset could very well invite political trouble at some point in time.
Fast forward to this chapter and we get...a law stating that Twilight must have a Royal Consort and 12 backup ones on hand?
What?
Cadance stated in the last story:
And yet Celestia says now:
What?
If the ponies of Equestria are expecting the Princesses to have consorts and if the nobility has an ingrained habit of this happening then why would the "entire world" come down on Twi's head?
Oh, and Cadance seems to be very well versed in this law.
Would have been nice if she had mentioned this law back in the last story instead of making it sound like Twi needed to prepare for war...
Please, please, please, tell me this all gets addressed in the next chapter. Right now it feels like some retconning is going on.
Now, onto my second issue.
4655510 hit the nail on the head here. I have a few issues of my own to add.
Let me just say that the scene with Fluttershy and Sunset was super hot.
However, I just have a hard time believing that Fluttershy would convince Sunset to have sex without permission from Twilight.
Fluttershy's Grand Flaw is that she wants to make all ponies happy at the expense of herself. Fluttershy also knows exactly what kind of relationship Sunset is in and has experience with how the rules work for said relationship. Not only that but she also knows that Twilight, as of right now, does not share Sunset.
And yet here we have Fluttershy practically insisting that Sunset have sex right that very second...
If it had been any other pony I would have been ok with it. But not Fluttershy.
All those doubts in Sunset's head about "is this ok?" Yeah, Fluttershy would have had those exact same thoughts because her actions would impact her friends and as i stated before Fluttershy's biggest issue is always putting others before herself at the expense of herself.
I understand this story was written under a time crunch, what with Inky having to ship back out to the Navy. I'm beginning to fear that the time crunch may have impacted the overall story.
4655510
4655836
Look, I can totally get why people in the comments are having problems with Flutershy and Sunset's actions, but I can see some reasons why Fluttershy acted the way she did and offered what she did. The first and obvious detail to keep in mind is that Fluttershy is a submissive who's been in the game so much longer than Sunset that she's probably gone through a lot of the shit Sunset's going through right now. Fluttershy knows exactly how enthralling and consuming BDSM can be for a pony, because she's pretty hardcore with it herself. Now throw in the fact that Sunset is getting dangerously, and I mean dangerously obsessed with being the closest pony to Twilight ever.
Sunset is defining herself as Twilight's submissive first, currently, and Sunset Shimmer second. Which is a case of a fetish becoming a bit unhealthy, since it could easily turn further down the path of Sunset sacrificing her individuality completely, because she seriously hates and can't trust herself. Fluttershy notices how on-guard Sunset is all the time, trying to be the best submissive to Twilight instead of trying to be herself. She's so fixated on the idea of being the perfect pet that she can't let Twilight's friends 'threaten' what Twi and Sunny have together, like in the case of Rarity. Rarity basically out and out tried to tell Sunset that even though Rarity loved Twilight, she was stepping down and bowing out because Sunset was more deserving, but Sunset still percieved it as a threat. Sunset is not being a rational pony, and hasn't been for a while. The fixation, the pathological need to be nothing more than Twilight's pet is screwing a lot of things up. And Fluttershy is a pony who reads body language very well. You have to, around so many animals.
I believe what Fluttershy was trying to accomplish through having sex with Sunset would be along the lines of trying to show Sunset that there's more to her than just being Twilight's sub. Fluttershy was reminding Sunset that her pleasure didn't have to start and end with Twilight's pleasure, and that Sunset herself didn't have to start and end with what Twilight wants from her. Fluttershy saw that Sunset was getting too wrapped up in being Twilight's pet to be herself as well. She needed a way to convey to Sunset that Sunset was worth more than that, and she figured that a sexual encounter would be a way to convey what she needed to convey in a way that Sunset would be receptive to. Think about it - A great deal of Sunset's life revolves around sexual and non-sexual power-play. A great deal of how Sunset currently understands herself and Twilight is through sexual dynamics. So how better to remind Sunset of herself than though helping her explore a different side of sex? A less extreme kind of sex? It may seem strange, but I know Fluttershy's intentions were not romantic, and I'm pretty sure her intentions weren't entirely sexual either. I believe Fluttershy's intentions were to use the sex they had as a therapy, of some sorts, or an intervention in a way Sunset would understand. Words haven't been doing shit this whole time, if you'll kindly remember. Every time someone talks to Sunset, she twists things and gets more angry and confused. But actions, instincts, and sex are all things she will understand intrinsically at this moment, so I feel that's why Fluttershy acted how she did in this chapter.
4655710
The thing you're not getting is that Sunset did not have permission to run out and find a new lover out of the blue. Even in a vanilla relationship what Sunset did isn't cool. With the relationship that Twi and Sunset have it's even less cool.
Especially when you consider that these two were so serious about how this relationship worked that they drew up a physical contract, wrote out all the rules, and then signed it.
The main issue here is one of trust. The whole time Sunset was having sex, Twilight thought she was at Rarity's helping clean up. How can Twilight possibly react positively to that? Why should she be happy about that in any way, shape, fashion, or form?
I'm kinda agreeing with 4655836. This feels like manufactured drama. It also feels like a set up for a future, "Twi/Dash tag team the naughty subs" scene. Could be wrong, but surely one could see why I think that.
4656250
I completely missed that bit (Cadence from the last book and Cadence here), but that is a major issue. Nothing about this new Royal Law makes sense in the context of the previous book.
4656282
you make an excellent point and it makes sense that she'd twist words, she's been doing it her whole life, I find irony in the fact that she's trying to be owned by Twilight but it's still the fear of people taking Twi away from her, overall while I understand the misgivings this isn't about facts but emotions, and the writer managed to make Flutter's actions here feel right, he could have botched it majorly, also I am under the impression that this "law" is a hoax manufactured by Celly just to make Twi and Sunset come out of their shells, she feels that they have been turtling up their feelings and need pressure to get out, Honestly I'd say Fluttershy is the most intelligent person here, having dealt with people with emotional issues, words and logic will accomplish jack shit, you need to break though on an emotional appeal, one that they cant twist and edit in their minds.
4656282
My problem isn't one of motivation. Fluttershy made some very good points when she was talking to Sunset and Sunset probably did need a form of sex that wasn't the master/slave set up she has with Twi.
The problem most of us are having is that both Fluttershy and Sunset went ahead with the sex knowing full well that Twilight did not give Sunset permission to be with any other ponies. My first comment on this chapter gives more details on what was wrong with this whole thing.
4656325
4656446
4655510
Okay, I've tried to keep out of the comments and let discussion handle things, but I feel a need to say my piece here.
First off, the political angle to things. I tried to imply (But apparently did not do strongly enough) that the law Celestia is dredging up is ANCIENT. It is also a law that Cadence DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT. Cadence's list has everything to do with household staff (Meaning the Maids, the butlers, et Cetera) and nothing to do with Celestia bringing up the Attendants concept. Why Celestia is doing this is explained later. When Celestia talks about using this law to impress the NOBILITY, she is not talking about the common people of Equestria. They are two entirely distinct groups with two entirely distinct layers of morality that sometimes disagree with one another. I.E Average Every Day America and the Celebrity / Rich person Hollywood culture.
(Also: The reason it didn't come up in this fic was because it would've made it another ten chapters long, and Inky didn't want that.)
Secondly, Why did Fluttershy do this? She has her reasons. They will be explained. It's not in the next chapter because this kind of thing takes time to get to in the course of the story. Yes, I've taken all of this stuff into account. SUNSET IS EFFECTED BY THIS DECISION AND IT HAS CONSEQUENCES.
FFS guys, have I not yet proven that I know what I'm doing here?
And guys? I discarded the "This kind of relationship thing doesn't work and everyone knows it doesn't!" Argument from my consideration when I wrote farking Musical Relations and Princess Alluring. Some things in my relationship fics are going to be a little bit out there and a little bit divorced from total reality.
If I was going for one-hundred percent real life accuracy, I wouldn't be writing shipfics about lesbian Incest bondage ponies and their bisexual buddies, Princess Alluring would never have happened, And frankly speaking Twilight would have told Sunset to go pound sand instead of getting into a relationship with an emotionally unstable person in the original Two Between. Chant the MST3k Mantra, and let me tell the story, please?
Oh and yes, I am frustrated a bit here, and I apologize if that comes across as such.
Ah, there's the Politics I like to see in my ship-fics. Wait, what??
In all seriousness though, the politics make the story feel "grounded" to something. Like all this sex and bondage has impacts on the world around it. And quite frankly, it works.
4656829
It's not a case of "we don't trust you" (at least for me), just a pile-up of "wait, WTF just happened?" I mean, sure, I haven't seen the plan for the whole story, but it seems frigging odd that such an apparently important Royal Law hasn't been enforced on Cadence, Princess of freaking Love, but is being enforced on Twi. From the reader's viewpoint, that's all kinds of nonsensical.
4657049
Is it? Why would Cadence, a Princess who's very nature has lent herself to a very, very deep and abiding and might I add STABLE relationship with Shining Armor, need to have this law enforced on her, or even be aware of it? She has the kind of fairytale romantic relationship that would basically preclude any suggestions that she's not getting enough in the sack, or isn't emotionally stable. Celestia would have absolutely no need to dredge up a millenia old law about having sexual partners to keep you on an even keel to somepony who, by all accounts, is basically in a perfect relationship.
4656829
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa...
...
Whoa.
It wasn't my intention to frustrate you or make you think I was on some crusade to rip apart your story. I trust you to deliver an overall package I'm happy with by the time this all ends. Doesn't mean I'll be happy with every point along the way, but I am confident you'll deliver where it counts.
4657049
This. This is what caught me off guard. Still, you want trust. So, I'll trust we'll get an adequate explanation as to why Cadance, who's been an alicorn princess far longer than Twi, is not subject to this law and Twi suddenly is.
As for Fluttershy...
I think we're destined to have opposing view points when it comes to Fluttershy's characterization.
A shame you didn't hold off commenting about the law stuff. I was curious if anyone was going to offer a counter to my points based on their own interpretation of what was going on.
I mean, half the reason I comment is to get some discussion going from other readers. It is certainly not an attack against you and Inky. Sorry if I came off as a douche. Not my intention.
4657206
*Sigh* Sorry too. I didn't mean to get a little... angry there. I was extremely flustered because several of these points I thought I'd actually explained pretty well. It irked me badly when all the work I put into trying to make sure this stuff was justified just... went over people's heads completely.
Mea culpa if I went Pinkamena there for a bit.
4656786
Hrrm. My interpretation of that chapter would be that Fluttershy used a little booze and a lot of lovebombing to seduce Sunset while the poor mare is in a pretty bad frame of mind.
Which is horribly manipulative of our shy little pony, and I'm looking forward to where she's going with this wicked scheme of hers.
EDIT: Of course, Fluttershy may have done it this way so she'd conveniently have ways to defend Sunset later and keep Twilight's focus on her - convenient, because she seems to have a lot she wants to say to Twilight anyway.
4657155 Oh, shit .. I really, really didn't mean to devalue non-sexual physical intimacy, and I'm sorry anything I said could be construed as having that bent. Non-sexual physical intimacy is amazing, and I can't get enough of it. I just have problems talking about sexual physical intimacy, because I don't really understand it myself. Not that that's an excuse. I maybe should have read through my comment a couple more times before posting? My bad.
I definitely agree that Fluttershy's continuation of the situation in a sexual way might not have been the best choice, and it does feel out-of-character for the Fluttershy most readers are more comfortable with. getting Sunset to have a more meaningful, intimate relationship with somepony that, as you mentioned in your comment, is less extreme and comes without the confusions and complications that sex could bring on an unhealthily submissive mind would probably be better in the long run. So I'm not saying Fluttershy made a good choice or guided Sunset into a good choice, hoever you wanna look at it. But I can understand why, given the situation and the varying experiences that this particular Fluttershy has, she would go in this direction. She probably doesn't really know Sunset Shimmer well as a friend, based n what we know of them. But she knows the kind of thing Sunset has been craving sexually, up to and possibly including what Sunset Shimmer has been missing sexually and therefore doesn't even know she craves. Her knowledge as a submissive herself runs head-on into her nearly-overpowering instinct to nurture and heal, and we're left with an explosive pile of pony sex that's gonna cause problems later. I dunno.
Anyways, thanks for your insightful comments on the lively debate that seems to have started. I think you've brought some interesting points to the table on all sides, and it was great getting to hear such a rational and well-reasoned voice. And thanks for calling me out on my implications of non-sexual physical intimacy as being lesser; I'll try to do better at watching my language surrounding that issue in the future.
4657206
My biggest problem is is that now I have to sit here and stare at the rest of what we've written and trying to strangle my self-doubt over how well I've actually explained / conveyed things and ripping apart things to try and make sure all the mechanics come through.
4657247
Eek. I hate the idea that I had a hand in introducing self-doubt into your master plan for the story.
I say stick to your guns. We might not get it all at first but we'll get it by the end.
Look at it this way. We wouldn't be in here writing comment books if we didn't feel emotionally invested in this story. I've read dozens of stories where I did not say one single word on each chapter. With this story I can't shut up(much to your chagrin).
Be happy that you've created a story that really draws us in. Even if we get a bit unruly when we're not so sure what is happening at the moment.
4656829
Slow down, LLIJ. No one is attacking you. You wrote something in a manner that is frankly offensive from a moralistic, realistic, fictional, objective, subjective, and in-continuity character viewpoint. You cannot tell me you did not realize this would garner mixed feelings after getting a lot of people emotionally invested into your world - and thus been prepared for confusion and anger, because that would be silly and I respect you too much as an author to hear that. On my end I don't even care about the political aspect - that was actually a good idea as far as I'm concerned.
But as Strange Reasoning pointed out, the -tone- of the story surrounding what Fluttershy has done, regardless of her not-yet-apparent reasons, makes it seem like what happened was a good thing. THAT I find offensive. You are writing for an audience that is spotted with those of us who live the BDSM/kinkster and/or polyamorous life and so far you've been close enough to the mark on each point that NOW saying "I don't care if it's realistic." just seems even more out of place. Again, not with the politics thing - I liked that, that's good friction and presents a problem that is psychologically sound as an obstacle for all parties involved. That's GOOD, two thumbs way up.
Now, as stated, no one is attacking you. Even I'm not, and I'm one of the quickest-tempered and vitriolic people you'll have in your comments in that I've spent most of my years on this site embroiled in multiple arguments and the like. If I'm not attacking you, then please trust me that no one else wants you to be angry, either (aside from the randomly-passing troll, but I'll probably jump on them first). We are legitimately at peace with you, and do not love you any less.
Bottom line, it's not that what you were trying to convey went over anyone's head - I don't think. It's that it went the opposite direction. I think most of us did state we're hoping the next chapter deals with the major breach of trust and relationship imposed by Sunset's weakness, and Fluttershy's leading her astray - and the fact that the story confuses us at the end by making it sound as if this is a thing that should have always happened going forward, that we have spoken of said hope shows we do still trust you to deliver but we're not happy with what's just come up. Surely, even with the omniscience of the author who understands accurately what was put down because you know where it's going, you understand our concerns and consternation by looking at it from the perspectives we've shown you?
(Also, as to the Cadence-not-having-to-do-this issue some have brought up. You guys really need to ignore that. Cadence is not an Equestrian citizen and not bound by Equestrian national royal-law. She's the sovereign entity of the Crystal Empire, they likely have their own laws. Come on folks. LLIJ's got that part down pat.)
4657154
OK, let's back up. Who requires that this law be enforced in Twi's case? Why is it, being a Royal Law, not enforced on all princesses? And why should Princess Twilight "I didn't ask for this, reacted poorly to the idea, and don't give a fuck what anypony thinks" Sparkle go along with it? I ask because I am honestly confused.
4657324
Hmmmm. The Crystal Empire thing is relatively new, and it's appearance was pretty much a surprise. Before it was around Cadance was an Alicorn Princess who lived in Equestria. Thus the law should have applied to her. The fact that it didn't kinda suggests that Celestia is trolling Twilight. Which is funny but also a bit weird.
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I just want you two to know that I'm sorry I got kind of off kilter there. I'll address your points later tonight, after I've had some time to chill out and try to degauss my brain.
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I know. I suppose it stems mostly from me having all this attention and wanting to be worthy of it, you know? I want to make sure everything comes across RIGHT.
4657493
Well, hugs for you. Simmer and relax, then come tell us your thoughts. I hope we've communicated our viewpoints well enough so that you can see the readers' angle.
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I really do. There's a lot I'm going to need to say, but I'm too wound up right now to put it down without it coming out badly.
I am incredibly flattered that you've all taken the time and effort to feel this strongly about my work. It is a sign that I am, perhaps at last, doing something right. I hope I can meet those expectations.
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From what we can tell, Cadence wasn't... actively a princess, so much as she had the title? In the sense that Blueblood is a prince (likely of the old Unicornian royal line that has since become defunct), but has no royal station. I mean, do you send active and practicing royalty to baby-sit for random Canterlot families?
Obviously we don't have the full story, but I'm going to say that the Empire issue was basically Cadence's switch to royal-active from royal-in-name. Which also transferred her citizenship at the same time, since you can't have an independent country ruled exclusively by a foreign national.
That's my perspective from extrapolation.
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Dude. You are totally worthy of all the attention. You are a kick ass writer. You have the skill and drive to pull stuff like this off. Don't doubt your talent over silly misunderstandings.
I think the problem here is that it's hard to put aside the big picture and only focus on the little pieces of info the reader is getting fed on an individual basis with each chapter. All these questions could certainly be answered in the next two to three chapters.
Thing is we don't know that so it catches us by surprise and in true internet fashion we post comments about it.
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Well, you do have a point. At the same time this right here,
can be applied to Twilight. I wouldn't call what she is doing now being an active princess.
Of course, in canon Twilight has the exact same thoughts and doesn't get her real duties as princess until she gives Tirek the beat down. I doubt we'll see that happen here(though a BDSM style Tirek fight would be a highly entertaining read. ). Maybe one can't be a true Princess until you have the proper harem?
...
Still gonna lean towards Trollestia here.
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I could never imagine Fluttershy being that manipulative. Though I can see how that scene can be read in such a manner. I honestly don't think she was being manipulative. I really feel her intentions were to try and help Sunset.
read the privew thought of this song
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For me personally, it's not a matter of being wise or not. It's simply that Fluttershy is the last pony to ever hurt a friend intentionally. Fluttershy had first hand knowledge that Twi was not sharing Sunset. Thus sleeping with Sunset would most certainly hurt Twilight.
Now, if Fluttershy was somehow certain that doing this would not hurt Twilight in any way then I could buy it. But I don't see anything like that in this chapter.
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I find her use of the Stare in Bats to be a bit on an anomaly. In fact, I find the best examples of Fluttershy in season 1 and 2 and her use in seasons 3 and 4 to be a bit odd. In all of season 4 I really only liked how she was handled in Filli Vanilli, that felt far closer to Fluttershy than Bats or It Ain't Easy Being Breezies(this one in particular made me sad. It was her key episode and it felt very ho hum...).
Iron Will was a unique case. She was given an entire seminar on being more assertive and thus her repressed anger boiled to the surface over time. It also wasn't a single moment either. It got worse as time went on. If she didn't have so much anger pent up from allowing herself to be a doormat, then her reaction to the seminar wouldn't have been so extreme.
In the context of this story, it's pretty clear Fluttershy is not acting out of pent up sexual frustration. Thus, I feel she would have thought about the big picture and how her actions would affect one of her best friends.
It's just that, on a personal level, I cannot see how Fluttershy would simply ignore the obvious fact that this particular act would hurt Twilight. It's just so obvious that of course having sex with your best friend's significant other would hurt said friend. If Fluttershy had been led to believe that Twilight was ok with Sunset having sex with another pony(and then later finding out that wasn't true), then I wouldn't have had a problem with this scene.
Ok, I've harped on this enough. I'm gonna shut up about it and wait and see how it all plays it. No need to keep shoving my view point down everyone's throat.
Honestly I'm getting the impression that the issue [both in and out of story] is overthinking, everyone gets so wrapped up in the torrent of thoughts and worries that they cant just feel what they want to feel, It seems the story is going in a harem type direction, thus Sunset needs to see how a sexual friend can have a place in her heart without detracting from her True love for Twilight, to help her distinguish her love from her possessiveness. Now maybe this will have repercussions in the future, maybe it wont, but at that moment it seemed to be the best course of action for the story.
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I'd like you to know that a very important scene in an upcoming chapter has been much extended to address this issue. The original scene was much shorter for the sake of brevity, but I think it has been much improved by the extension.
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I'd like to apologize for my "I don't care" crack. That really doesn't show my feelings and was a simplification borne of frustration. I DO Care about getting these things as close to life as possible, but sometimes I have to take certain liberties to advance a point. I swear to Hades I'm going somewhere with this plotline, and I really hope I've ironed it out enough to address your concerns. Fluttershy's reasons for doing what she did are very strong, I think. It's going to take another chapter or two to GET That explanation, but it is coming. I hope it works for you, at least. >_<
As to the rest of your thoughts... ergh, A big problem here is that sometimes I fail to remember that my whole running theme of "Some characters know things other characters don't and that creates interesting stuff." Doesn't always translate very well. Sometimes, I omit details and parts of conversation that I should probably keep in. For this, I take responsibility, as I probably should have gone over more of this information earlier in the story than I did.
I know there's a lot I'm missing here, since I'm a little tired and it's 4am, but I hope the rest of this story successfully answers your issues. If you'd like something SPECIFIC addressed I'll give it a go in the morning. THe same goes to anyone else, but keep the questions simple, okay? I'm trying to keep spoilers down.
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People can make big mistakes like that, if the impetus to do so is strong enough. Explanations are forthcoming.
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I'm just going to have you make all my arguments for me from now on. Is that okay?
4660426
That's good to hear and I'm really looking forward to this extended scene. Again, sorry if I came on too strong with my comments. I never intended to derail you with them.
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Ok. Seriously. Where were you during the Twilight Shadow stories? I would have loved to bounced all my ideas off of you then.
You're closing paragraph is very well done and sums up your view nicely. Your whole argument certainly made me less angry with Sunset as a whole.
I still don't feel sorry for her, per se, but I'm not wishing she gets run over by a steamroller now, so that's progress.
And I know that reply took a long time to write up. Thank you for taking the time to do so. I really appreciate it.
It does seem that at this point in the story, when it comes to Sunset's reformation, her relationship with Twilight is causing more harm than good. Which is kinda fascinating since they started this with the intention of it helping Sunset. I am curious how long it takes either Sunset or Twilight to realize what's happening and what steps they will take to correct it.
Alright! So Fluttershy explained that some Twilestia action is perfectly ok. That's what I got out of this. That, and: woohoo finally a happy chapter!
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That's a deep and fascinating look into Sunset's psyche.
I think our views on "try" might differ here. I would say that she did try back in the last story and even made some progress. However, as of chapter 5 of this story I don't really see her trying anymore. She has her relationship with Twilight and that is now her focus. Everything revolves around that. She attacks Rarity because of that relationship and then outright refuses to face why what she did was wrong because, to her, she was defending that relationship.
Thus, she isn't trying to get new friends or learn friendship anymore. She's trying to lose herself in Twilight. You already made that point very well in your last reply.
I'll admit that Twi and the gang have not encountered a pony with the mental world view that Sunset has and that is influencing why they seem to be making all the wrong moves when it comes to correction. Though I still feel that the responsibility falls on Twilight for this simply because she has put herself into a position to assume that responsibility, both as a Princess and as a Mistress.
I think we're all in agreement that Sunset cannot be helped until everyone stops what they're doing and get Sunset some mental therapy.
Yay, finaly
Well, this is a wrench in the works of their relationship (Sorry I didn't comment earlier BTW, I had some computer issues). Too bad Sunset only head part of that conversation. Yikes, I think that if Celestia can't help (and maybe even if she can), Sunset should get some therapy, there is no way that kind of emotional dependency is healthy, even in a relationship like Twilight's and Sunset's. If the hints that Sunset is pregnant are true, should she really be drinking alcohol? While I think that the scene with Sunset and Fluttershy came out of nowhere just a bit, I think that Shy is just trying to help the emotional mare calm down and relax a bit, which Sunset probably really needed.
I don´t really like the idea that ther is a silly law that say Twilight has to have sex with others, why?
I know this is probably still a Clopfic, but even then i don´t understand Celestia which really want Twilight have many Stallions or Mares to fuck.
But well if she just think of the main Six so far, then i probably have nothing against it. I just don´t want to see Sunset sad, and yeah i know there is something not right with her, but i don´t like it if there is some mighty pony, which think she could do with others what she want. There can´t really be a reason other then Celestia want it that way, because she believes.....ect. I mean if this would not be a Clopfic, then friends would be enough right?
Think nothing about it, it is more the thing that Celestia is more or less forcing Twilight to do such things which is anger me, it always anger me a bit.
I really like your story and i first will see how it turned out befor vote for it in either way.
Jesus H is the comments for this chapter riled up. Personally I would love to finish reading this to get my thoughts straight but do have to say that the easedrop misunderstanding was something I didn't really expect to see in this well written fic as I feel that is just a trope that adds unnesusary BS to all the good stuff already there.
Also it's getting harder after the last couple chapters to even tolerate the Asylum level craziness from Sunset Shimmer as this story continues.
This is just one of those stories where I really like the writing but I can't empathize with any of the characters at all because none of them seem to have their heads on straight and I can't move forward with reading this because of it.
Okay, now this has wandered into 'idiot ball' territory. It's one thing to have characters with believeable flaws and another to shoehorn them into complete self-destruction because a story needs conflict.
I see what you did there...
I'm sorry, Flutters knows Sunset's pregnant. She wouldn't give her fucking hard liquor. The wine is one thing, although FASD is only known to be avoided 100% of the time in complete absence of alcohol, some doctors think that the beneficial effects of wine outweigh the risks. But reading about someone who always has the utmost care for others, especially babies, putting the unborn at unnecessary risk makes me literally ill.
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I know, right? Yet it seems to have been completely missed in all the other drama around this chapter.
I can understand the whole cuddling and massage thing. Maybe even the kissing and sex; it's not exactly the best or most rational decision, but they'll figure out how to handle it. But the one other pony who knows that Sunset is probably pregnant giving her high octane booze... I'm a bit baffled anyway how all the other drama in the story itself completely overshadows the whole pregnancy thing. Rivaling it, yes, maybe even distracting from the problem, but I would think that it's a bit higher on Sunset's list of priorities.
Or maybe she's just in denial. I've given up on trying to figure her out in this story.
F this story, sry but Sunney being upset for conveluted reasons of Rarity being interested in Twi. Than Sun suddenly jumping in bed with flutters, yeah makes total sence. Wtf, yeah done here. Next time try to make shit make sence.