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(Warning - kind of long and rambling. TLDR at the bottom.)

I think I've said before that I find the opening two-parter of Season 3 one of the show's more flawed ones, and the location and race it introduced among the show's most underutilised. Still, some of those flaws are more interesting, or less plumbed, than others - I could say a lot on the whole "test" business, for instance, but that's been argued to, well, the Empire and back. So instead I'm gonna talk about some other stuff, inspired maybe a bit by recent European events but perhaps more by recently reading Estee's fic "Post Negative Comments Only". (As to how it's relevant to this discussion... read and find out!)

So... a thousand years ago or thereabouts, there was a Crystal Empire. Or at least, a crystal city - perhaps they controlled more lands (or at least, once had), perhaps they just had delusions of grandeur. Either way, it seems unlikely that they were part of Equestria at the time - at most, they were a vassal state. It is at least strongly implied they had their own royal family, and outright confirmed that they had many old traditions. And by all reports, it was a pretty pleasant place - and in all it's neighbours' interests to keep it that way, as the city and it's Heart served as a massive broadcast antenna for the local mood.

A thousand years ago, a powerful dark mage called Sombra "took over" the empire. He styled himself "King", but there is no canon indicating if he was part of the ruling family, a foreign royal, or just an independent rogue like Amulet!Trixie. (Indeed, even his species is not certain, although Celestia refers to him as a unicorn - we see no crystal unicorns in the show, but we have seen one pegasus. If there were others, we can only guess as to what happened to them...) His goals are also not wholly clear, but his method was one of tyrannical oppression - some believe that he sought to broadcast fear and despair across the lands, for whatever purpose, and thus deliberately cultivated it in his "subjects".

The lack of show information on Sombra is notable, because it leaves open a broad variety of possible origins - and each of these, as far as it is known, would surely have an effect on the opinions of the crystal ponies, whose psyches he scarred deeply. If he was the legitimate heir, for instance, you might expect his reign to discredit the monarchy - less so if he was a lesser prince who assassinated his way to the throne, and not at all if he was an outright usurper. If he was a foreigner (and especially if he was of Equestrian birth) then you might expect the citizens of the Empire to be hostile to outsiders seeking to rule them - on the other hand, if he was just a "wandering monster" who the Empire was helpless to stop, there might be a craving for mightier protectors.

These are just a few of the possibilities, and the show gives us little clue to pick one by except what did come to happen. Equestria's ruling Princesses turned their attention to the dark ruler, likely in a mix of righteous intervention and pre-emptive self-defense, and struck him down - but his last curse banished the Empire, not to be return for roughly a millenium. And at least one of those Princesses awaited that return (and the chance to correct her failure) all that time, and once it took place, dispatched a mission to secure the city against Sombra (and presumably also aid the time-displaced locals as best as possible).

The specifics of the mission I won't go into right now, but it was ultimately successful - and while one of the key figures in that success, the young dragon Spike, would be honoured greatly in the Empire for it it, another player - arguably the expedition leader - would receive more than just accolades. Yes, I'm talking here of Princess Cadance - in personality virtually Sombra's opposite, but sharing a few key points. Both specialise in magic that manipulates the heart, but can also conjure crystals as well. Both ruled the Crystal Empire in turn. And both have no origin of any sort given in the show - while Sombra's only one comes from some retrospectively dubious comics, Cadance's was chapter-book material. About the most we can truly infer from the episodes is that she was not born an alicorn (or her daughter coming out as one would be little surprise) but how she became one, or where, when, or to who she was born, is a mystery. (She does appear visibly younger about a decade ago, so her having lived continuously since the Empire was around seems less likely than not.)

One of the greater clues in that mystery points towards the Crystal Empire. Cadance's cutie mark (obtained under unknown circumstances prior to her first appearance) closely resembles the Crystal Heart, and a crystal pony who sees her flying by (unclear if they got a good look at her mark) declares "Behold! The Crystal Princess!". Now, does this mean they think she's descended from the original royal family? Or actually one of them, preserved across the ages? Or were said ancient monarchs selected by the Heart rather than a bloodline? And whatever the basis for the claim is, is it actually correct? (Oh, and could there be some relation between the Empire's return and Cadance coming fully into her own as Alicorn of Love?)

Whatever the case, it seems that from that point onwards, Cadance took over Sombra's role as the Empire's chief executive - while still remaining a Princess of Equestria and answering to Celestia to some degree. As a result, the Empire seems to have been swiftly drawn into the Equestrian sphere, attracting both tourists and immigrants from it's southern neighbour - especially after hosting the Equestria Games. Granted, I'm not sure if it's ever declared to be part of Equestria - but if it isn't yet, it's only a matter of time.

So in other words... a monarchy of some sort came to be ruled by a (probably at least somewhat illegitimate) monarch, who tyrannized them in ways his predecessors likely had not. One temporal hiccup later, and said monarch has been deposed by agents of the rulers of a large and powerful neighbouring country, whose relationship before the incident was unknown but not likely very close. The chief among said agents, who may have links to the previous monarchy, is then installed as a... well, "puppet ruler" sounds harsh, and we don't know if Cadance is as deferential to Celestia as Twilight is, but we can at least say she's less than fully independent, Said ruler proceeds to draw the nation closer into it's neighbours sphere, likely helped by the necessity of modernisation after the aforementioned hiccup. And the citizenry seem quite happy with this... although after their last ruler, almost anything would be an improvement.

It's a slightly dubious situation if looked at one way, especially with certain events in the news. From the show's intended angle, though, it's a fine situation approved of by everyone not a villain. And the things we don't know about Sombra and Cadance can tilt the balance a lot depending on how you fill them in - likewise whatever goes in in the Empire off-screen between episodes.

So does anyone have any thoughts on any part of the matter? Headcanon, perhaps?

(TLDR: given how little we know of either's background in show canon, on what ground did Sombra claim his rule of the Empire, and on what grounds was Cadance chosen to succeed him? And is it a plus, minus, or just a misconception that this is basically a setup for them to be absorbed as a province of Equestria?)

7652866 The Equestrians stormed the castle then forced a referendum where the citizens voted whether the Crystal Empire wishes to be independent. 150% of the citizens voted that they wanted to be independent. After that, the government (Princess Cadence) declared that the will of the citizens is to join Equestria. Equestria annexed it, and here we are.

7652867
Or maybe since their hero is from Equestria they voted to annex themselves to be closer to him.

SweetAI Belle
Group Admin

7652866
Don't know if this helps, but King Sombra wasn't even in the original outline or first draft of "The Crystal Empire"! Originally, the kingdom had been taken over by Queen Chrysalis instead, which kinda adds a layer to the whole thing of Chrysalis impersonating Cadance.

PRINCESS CELESTIA meets with PRINCESS LUNA in the throne room. They speak in hushed tones. Princess Luna tells her sister that perhaps it would be better if she were to take on such an important task. “The kingdom is too important to the future of Equestria,” she adds. Princess Celestia informs Luna that “she” is also important to the future of Equestria. “If she succeeds, we’ll know that she is that much closer to being ready,” she adds cryptically. Their conversation is interrupted by a quiet “ahem”. They turn to see Twilight standing in the doorway.

Princess Celestia dismisses her sister and invites Twilight to enter. “You wanted to see me?” Twilight says, “To give me a test?” Twilight uses her magic to open a bag beside her. She shows the Princess that she’s brought her own ink and quill and plenty of paper to show her answers.

Princess Celestia smiles and uses her magic to place the items back into Twilight’s bag. She informs Twilight that it is a different kind of test – one that requires a history lesson first. Twilight listens intently as Princess Celestia begins to tell her about the CRYSTAL KINGDOM. Once a beautiful place filled with magic and light, it served as a beacon of hope for all of Equestria.

As Princess Cadence speaks, she uses her magic to project images of the Crystal Kingdom and the sparkling CRYSTAL PONIES that resided there. The sky above the kingdom shimmers and shines - Equestria’s version of the Aurora Borealis.

Princess Celestia explains that the Crystal Kingdom fell to an evil queen – the CHANGELING QUEEN and her MINIONS descend upon the Crystal Kingdom and it is TRANSFORMED into a dark and terrifying place; its citizens turn into dull, gray shells of their former glittering selves.

Twilight asks Princess Celestia about the Changeling Queen. Is this the same queen who tried to control her brother Shining Armor? Twilight uses her magic to project an image of Shining Armor in a daze. The same queen that tried to take her sister-in-law’s place at her wedding? A swish of her horn erases the image of Shining Armor and replaces it with an image of the Changeling Queen as Princess Cadence. “The same Queen whose plot to take over Equestria only you were wise enough to figure out in time,” Princess Celestia adds proudly, using her own magic to show Twilight angrily staring down the Changeling Queen as she turns from Princess Cadence back into her true form.

Princess Celestia explains that because Princess Cadence was able to eject the Changeling Queen from Equestria, she has been selected to take the Changeling Queen’s place as ruler of the Crystal Kingdom. But she needs help restoring it to its former glory. Should the Crystal Kingdom and its citizens not be returned to their original form, the Kingdom will be susceptible to not just another attack by the Changeling Queen, but by any evil being who wishes to bring harm to Equestria. Restoring the Crystal Kingdom with Princess Cadence -- that will be Twilight’s test.

And, wow, kinda a shame this part was cut...

TWILIGHT: I...failed.

RAINBOW DASH: Duh. Of course you did.

Twilight is surprised by her harsh response to this news.

TWILIGHT: What?

FLUTTERSHY: It was obvious from the start you didn’t have what it takes.

APPLEJACK: Yep. Really obvious.

The others nod in agreement.

PINKIE PIE: Didn’t need Pinkie Sense to see this one coming.

RARITY: Good one.

Rarity and Pinkie Pie exchange a HIGH-FIVE.

MUSIC UP as Rarity beings to sing a REPRISE of Twilight’s SONG from ACT I with new lyrics.

RARITY:
Poor little Twilight, she tried her best./
But alas, couldn’t pass this test./
Does many things, so very well/
But truth be told we knew she’d fail.

Twilight’s friends form a CIRCLE around her as they join in on the song.

APPLEJACK:
You clearly don’t have what it takes./

PINKIE PIE:
Which is too bad with such high stakes/

FLUTTERSHY:
She thought for sure she would prevail./

RAINBOW DASH:
But truth be told we always knew that she would fail.

The Ponyville Ponies begin to DANCE in a circle around Twilight.

RARITY:
Sorry that your future looks so very dim.
Remain our friend?

TWILIGHT (hopeful): Remain your friend.

RAINBOW DASH:
The chance is slim.

TWILIGHT: The chance is slim?

APPLEJACK:
Do many things, so very well...

PONYVILLE PONIES:
But we always knew...

TWILIGHT: You always knew?

PONYVILLE PONIES:
We always knew...

TWILIGHT: You always knew?

MUSIC OUT as Rarity leans in close to Twilight.

RARITY (speaking):
We always knew--

MUSIC BACK UP as the Ponyville Ponies finish out the song.

PONYVILLE PONIES:
That you would fail. That you would fail.
That you would fail.

MUSIC OUT.

The Ponyville Ponies <LAUGH> and <LAUGH> and <LAUGH> as they walk away from Twilight.

RAINBOW DASH: See ya!
RARITY: Wouldn’t want to be ya!

More <LAUGHTER> as they disappear into the distance. Twilight watches them go, overwhelmed with sadness and too stunned by what has transpired to move.

--Sweetie Belle

7652880
If you mean Spike, you'd think in that case they'd have reached out to him rather than waiting for him to come to them.


7652867
Hmm... not sure which part of this deserves :trixieshiftleft: the most...

7652886
Well, while not saying much about the implications of canon, that scenario certainly might make an interesting alternative scenario. For one thing, there doesn't seem to have been any timeskip here - which raises questions like "so how long has Chrysalis been running the place?" and "how long has Celestia known about this?".

OF course, there are also more meta-level questions, like "so why did they change the villain/add the timeskip?" - do the leaks explain it at all?

And as for that scene... well, it's probably a bit long. Might make some kids cry.

Well the comic said he was a umbra disguise as a pony when he was little but he never knew it. The crystal heart was hurting each fair and every year he just wanted to go to the fair. The current princess at the time knew everything about him and instead of helping him just eventually let him understand what he was and didn't bother to care about the pain she was causing him. His people wanted him to free them which is why the slaves.

7652866 Well, there isn't much, but it was established that the Crystal Empire was ruled over by a queen at one point. And it's likely that King Sombra deposed said queen. As for Cadence taking over the throne, it seems like it would have something to do with her cutie mark being the Crystal Heart. The empire might have been more or less annexed by Equestria owing to its unique magical properties, and perhaps its strategic value as a more or less second capital.

There are the IDW comics, which establish that Sombra more or less killed Queen Amore when he became evil, resenting her for knowing about his destiny as projected in the Crystal Heart but doing nothing to help him avoid it. But not only does have it the prospect of "Unreliable Narrator" due to the information source being Sombra's private journal, but it was subsequently used for "Siege of the Crystal Empire" which redeemed Sombra. And given that he was brought back (and killed off again) at the beginning of Season 9, that can't be canon.

SweetAI Belle
Group Admin

7652892
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find anything explaining why it was changed. It happened between the first and second draft, when it changed to "King Umbra". Then there was apparently a conflict with Pokemon, with King Tumbra, King Erebos, and King Sombra as possible alternates, and they obviously went with the last one.

It's one of these things where it could easily be there, as the leaks aren't very organized, and I often spot things I missed, like a whole folder of rejected episode premises...

I think it's useful to look at these things, though, because often things that don't totally make sense crop up because of changes, where they made more sense originally.

And, yeah, can see why they cut that last scene. Easily removable for time, and it was rather dark.

--Sweetie Belle

7652904 From my understanding, King Sombra was meant to be like Sauron from The Lord of The Rings franchise: A villain that lurks in the background as a continued threat for the heroes, but never engages them directly. A villain that relies on their own plans and their own intellect to discover the heroes' weak spots and exploit them to defeat them. But the execution didn't quite work since a one-off villain for two twenty two minute episodes isn't going to be able to compete with a villain who has an entire movie trilogy (each movie lasting over two hours) to be built up before they appear for the final showdown. And King Sombra thus becomes more of a background presence, to the point where you could replace him with a natural disaster and the narrative stakes would be the same.

7652906
Yeah, he really seemed to lack presence. In the end I ran with it by basically deciding that he was so bad (like, Hitler level) that we could only see his, well, shadow on a TV-Y show. (Of course, that kind of made it awkward when he actually made more substantial appearances... but he was always scary, competent - at least compared to most villains - and cruel.)

7652910 For his initial appearance, anyway. His return in Season 9 seemed to completely miss the mark and compensated too hard in the opposite direction for his lack of presence.

7652928
That's what I meant... his character was a bit off there, but he still managed to do a lot of stuff, including destroying the Tree of Harmony.

7652886
Some very interesting background information on how the story changed from draft to launch. From a world building perspective it looks connected to the changes that had Twilight's Test be a sing-a-long.

HapHazred
Group Admin

7652866 As with a lot of pony stuff, there's a bit of an X factor when it comes to how they work in the form of Cutie Marks, Harmony, Alicorns, and destiny and stuff. Throughout the show there's a lot of talk about cutie marks showing a pony's character, their destiny, their role in society, and so on. It's quite likely also that Alicorns are specifically tied to the force that is Harmony, whether through the Elements, the Tree, or even a sort of proto-harmony like is alluded to in Hearths Warming. It's generally fairly vague, and to make matters more confusing, Harmony itself seems to evolve throughout the show, kind of like it's alive.

It's possible that part of the reason Cadence is so well regarded by the Crystal ponies is specifically because she is an alicorn and her cutie mark seems to indicate that her destiny is with them. I think I remember somewhere it being said that she'd a distant relative to the old Crystal Empire rulers, but that may just be a secondary thing compared to what her Cutie Mark is. Moreover, her abilities (being tied to love) are also noteworthy. The Crystal Heart seems to react with love and stuff (it is literally a heart, which is a symbol of love) and Cadence's ability to sort of make love happen might mean that she's got a talent that old rulers of the Crystal Empire may have once had as well.

Basically, she's an alicorn (who seem to be viewed with reverence and are often in positions of leadership, or at least positions where they can maintain Harmony), she's a distant descendant to the Crystal Empire (possibly having escaped due to Sombra taking over, who knows), her destiny through her cutie-mark links her to the Empire (and it's likely the crystal ponies would know this), and her abilities seem to be exactly what you'd want to manipulate the Crystal Heart.

These things may give Cadence legitimacy she otherwise doesn't really deserve; one-thousand years is a long time for a ruling family's legitimacy to wane, no matter how undesirable the former ruler.

Regarding the CE's autonomy, well, I kinda wonder about that. Celestia doesn't *really* seem to do that much ruling beyond the city of Canterlot; most cities seem to run by themselves, largely. I wonder if Equestria works less like a nation and more like a rough collection of city states. Under that lens, the CE, as effectively it's own city state, is mostly just running itself, but might defer to the representative of the collection of city states it belongs to (Celestia, mostly). More like an alliance than a hard nation. Certainly Equestria seems to have flExiBle borders and a very incoherent system between locations within Equestria, which makes me think that its functioning is less rigid than a standard nation you might see on Earth.

7653053

Harmony
her destiny through her cutie-mark
her abilities seem to be exactly what you'd want to manipulate the Crystal Heart

Basically all of them seem to be more like their own Mandate of Heaven, with the exception their own seems to actually have some basis.

which makes me think that its functioning is less rigid than a standard nation you might see on Earth.

A lot of people also seem to think of Equestria as a modern nation. In truth it might be more like what you describe, each city able to do its own thing as long as some general rules are followed, directions from Canterlot are followed, and perhaps there's a tithe system or something (I don't think you can avoid taxes even in a world like Equestria).

HapHazred
Group Admin

7653061

with the exception their own seems to actually have some basis

To be fair I'd also be more inclined to believe in any kind of 'divine mandate' if there was magic rainbow-beams involved and the would-be ruler could bench-press the sun.

7653053
Yeah, a lot of broader things which could be mixed in here. And Cadance certainly has suitable traits - she just has limited chance to demonstrate them before being acclaimed. Although I suspect that for most, it was the defeat of Sombra which sealed the deal. (Given that the crystal ponies were not exactly in the most loving mood at the time, I wonder if Cadance used her powers there?)

Regarding the CE's autonomy, well, I kinda wonder about that. Celestia doesn't *really* seem to do that much ruling beyond the city of Canterlot; most cities seem to run by themselves, largely. I wonder if Equestria works less like a nation and more like a rough collection of city states.

Hmm... I've seen this idea bandied about before. To me it never seemed much more disconnected than America, the land of small towns and big gaps - but I do suspect it at least started that way, absorbing many smaller pony states over the years (with a few holdouts like Saddle Arabia and Maretonia maintaining at least nominal independence). As in real life, the rise of the train, telegraph and so on may be driving greater practical integration... although one might think that casual air travel would have done that sooner.

7652866
In my headcanon a lot of ponies who ruled Crystal Empire weren't that different from Sombra. Which is to say, many of them suppressed dissent with generous application of mind magic.

So, Crystal Empire had everything it needed to prosper. Rare magical crystals which everyone wanted, along with population of brainwashed slaves and some good investments in the future. These guys funded most monarchies that arose after Era of Discord, took control of several major trade routes and many other things.

So, Princess Amore, last in her line, wasn't smart investor or great ruler. Neither was she good administrator. She tried to implement reforms in Crystal Empire, rised standard of living for ponies in her capital and, accidentally, drained her treasury. So, when gold started running out she tried to pressure her neighbours into repaying debts. Which nobody wanted to do.

So, one of her neighbours, Princess Celestia, who at the time was not benevolent and beloved ruler but belligerent dictator who ruled with fire and blade, suddenly ended up in situation where she needs repay a lot of gold in a short amount of time if she doesn't want to be cut off from supply of magical crystals. And she needed both gold and crystals for her invasion into Zebra Empire.

So, instead of sending gold she sent detachment of her Battlemage Corps. Several hundreds of unicorn battlemages placed under command of stallion named Sombra. Their goals was to go and do so.etching about Crystal Empire. Like, take it over, or something.

Long story short, they did take it over. Only capital of Empire was relatively well off. In most other places only thing holding back violent revolution were mindcontrol spells placed on populace by Amore's father. Sombra and company used new type of magic and broke crystal ponies free. Then they stormed capital, took it over, decorated all major crossroads with crucified nobles and renewed flow of crystals back in Equestria, while graciously forgiving debts. Hell, Sombra even used Amore to make some legitimate heirs, though that was mostly because he was famous rapist.

Of course later his dark magic drove him mad, most of his original soldiers dispersed creating their own dark mage cabals, some of which still exist in modern Equestria and Celestia needed to interfere only twenty years later, but this is story for another time.

Anyway, Cadance's legitimacy, aside from chasing Sombra out of city before powering it for several days comes from two sources. First, just like all Princes and Princesses who ruled Crystal Empire before her she can brainwash ponies. Second, she is alicorn and her boss is Celestia therefore she could not and should not be denied. Oh, her husband also happens to be distant descendant of original royal family, but nopony knows about that little fact.

7653475
That's certainly a take on it.

7652866

given how little we know of either's background in show canon, on what ground did Sombra claim his rule of the Empire, and on what grounds was Cadance chosen to succeed him? And is it a plus, minus, or just a misconception that this is basically a setup for them to be absorbed as a province of Equestria?

What are you talking about?! Even if you don't consider comics canon, we've seen enough of Sombra's "kingship" in the show. Most people (and ponies) don't consider rule through brainwashing and mind-control desirable. Or at least legitimate.

In fanfics, you, of course, can suggest everything from Sombra being legitimate king to Royal Sisters being evil. But as far as the actual "Friendship is Magic" show goes, it's clear enough that Sombra enslaved the minds of Crystal Ponies and tried even to conquer Equestria. His defeat by ponies from Equestria would at the very least make Cadance a plausible candidate for the ruler.

It's a slightly dubious situation if looked at one way, especially with certain events in the news.

And that's why you should always remember that there is a difference between a real world and a fictional world. Especially when the fictional world operates by rules very different from ours.

7653519
I said background - like, where they came from before he took over the Empire a millennium ago/she foalsat Twilight a decade ago.

And while Sombra's crimes in the Empire are clear and apparent, him intending to conquer Equestria before it's Princesses went after him is merely quite probable.

7653530
In the show itself Celestia says:

If the Empire is filled with hope and love, those things are reflected across all of Equestria. If hatred and fear take hold...

So, we can assume that just the very magical nature of the Crystal Empire makes it influence all the lands around, including Equestria. Not unlike Tree of Harmony. In fact, the magic seed that Starswirl used to make the Tree of Harmony could as well come from Crystal Empire as crystal plants grow there.

There is also a quote from Twilight:

A 'Crystal Faire'. According to this book, it was established by their first queen and became their most important tradition. The Faire was held every year to "renew the spirit of love and unity in the empire so they could protect it from harm".

If the aura of Crystal Faire that was linked to love, unity and was established by Empire's royalty repels Sombra, then it's safe to assume that Sombra's rule wasn't exactly built on love, unity, and linked to the royal line.

Sure, both are just assumptions but still rather plausible according to evidence.

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