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God is an awesome God! And in his word he says to his disciples to spread the word to others. If you are a Christian, I encourage you to do this with others on this website. If you are not a christian, post and comment questions that I and others can answer.
Thanks, and God Bless.
For some reason, this group is also a good place to promote any and all of your stories. Just drop them in appropriate folders and watch the view count on them rise.
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438752
No, it’s not an attempt to convince you there is no Jesus. It’s to help you manage your stress and anxiety.
Yes we did talk about evidence, you said it can be twisted and I pointed out that that’s not evidence.
Do you even read what I write you you? Clearly not.
If you are ever ready to have a good faith conversation where you don’t accuse me of things I’m not doing, you know where to find me.
438751
If this is some pathetic attempt to convince me that there’s no Jesus, then no. Thank. You.
Yes. You are. You say that you’re open to believing in Jesus if evidence is given to you, yet you always debunk that evidence as not being proof at all. And if I recall correctly, we talked a little bit about how ‘evidence’ can be easily manipulated, and that you can’t officially confirm something to be true after just seeing it. It’s like judging a book by its cover.
Now, I’d like to be officially done with this conversation, so no more responses. I’m tired of talking to you, and I’m leaving this group for good.
438750
This isn’t about making a point, it’s just a question about your mindset.
Ok then, thank you for your honesty. By your own words, you are completely close minded to a view point other than your own. I definitely have gotten that impression from you (and other religious people) before, but it’s refreshing to hear it spoken of so plainly and openly. I agree with you that there is no point in continuing the conversation because you are not interested in truth, only in maintaining your current beliefs. (And yes you can claim that your beliefs are true, but that’s really just you repeating what you believe and specifying that you have a high degree of confidence in them. I’m asking about truth: that which evidently comports with reality, not your personal confidence level in your favourite mythology).
No, this is a lie. This is you projecting your close mindedness onto me. I’d ask you again to stop, but you haven’t stopped before when I asked so what’s the point.
No, I am not deeply rooted in what I believe. You are again projecting your own shortcomings onto me when I do not and will not share them. I’m open to being convinced of anything that I don’t currently believe: the existence of aliens or your god or a flat earth! The thing that’s going to convince me is evidence, not empty assertions. There is a point for me to have these conversations because I’m interested in truth. You aren’t (at least for the moment), so I agree that it’s pointless for you.
Fair enough, I’m sorry that having your religious beliefs questioned gives you anxiety. I recommend that you reach out to something like the secular therapy project for assistance, because the anxiety you feel is a safety mechanism installed by the Christian world view to protect it from scrutiny.
I’m not disappointed really. I mean, I’m always a little disappointed when a conspiracy theorist fails to demonstrate their beliefs. That said, every time I’ve spoken with you I’ve been pleased and impressed with your honesty. You give these conversations your best shot and you don’t just go copy/paste apologetics that you don’t fully understand. Thanks for the illuminating conversation, have a good day my friend!
438749
Would there really be any point?
Anything that tries to convince me that Jesus isn’t real is only going to convince me more that he is real, just like any attempt to convince you that Jesus is real would only convince you more that he isn’t real. Basically, the two of us are polar opposites that are deeply rooted in what we believe in, which only makes any of us trying to convince each other all-the-more pointless.
I’m really more interested in moving on from this, because the debates we’ve been having are making me feel anxious and depressed. Along with that, there are other things that I’d like to focus my time and energy on, and the conversations here have been getting in the way of the things I want to commit myself towards.
I’m sorry if this disappoints you in any way, really I am.
438748
A professional pastor might be more charismatic, but they don’t have any better reasons either.
Are you open to the possibility that you are wrong about the existence of your god?
438746
I already know the truth. And that truth is that Jesus is real, and everything the Bible says is true. As well as that whatever claims people have made to try proving that the Bible is incorrect is a lie. I know he exists because I made my choice to let Jesus in my heart so long ago, and it has provided me with a greater outlook than anything else in the world.
I’m not interested in trying to prove anything to you because I’m not the right guy that you should go to for this sort of thing. I’ve also found that, if I did try to prove God’s existence even when the evidence is in front of both of us, I’d be making pointless efforts in the long run. If you really want to know, talk to a professional pastor about it, because I’m pretty sure he or she would be better at this sort of thing that I’d be.
438743
For now, can you give me just one of these signs?
(And please make sure it’s both logically consistent and demonstrably true.)
438743
Maybe I will deny any evidence you present, or maybe I’m actually open minded but I’m noticing that the evidence you present is not sufficient for your claim. Are you interested in the truth, or do you just want to keep your comforting beliefs? Let me know if you want to and we can go though your ‘evidence’ and I can explain in detail the issues with it. Maybe I’m wrong and when we go through it you will educate me and change my life!
The problem I have is that you are claiming to know my motivations. News flash: you can’t read minds. You keep saying that no matter what you show me I’ll deny it, please stop these lies. Go to an amputee wing of a hospital, pray, and get your god to heal them. I would accept that!
Obviously I don’t find your words compelling. Water and animals are evidence for water and animals. I am asking for evidence of god, something I’m still waiting for you to give. I’m not interested in being right, I’m interested in what’s right. I’m open and enthusiastic about being proven wrong, but you actually have to come with proof. To be clear: I’m not saying god doesn’t exist. I’m saying that I don’t believe he does exist due to a lack of evidence.
Perhaps you should go talk to a wall, it will listen to everything you say and won’t ask questions (just like a good little Christian).
Edit: sorry for the snarky-ness at the end here, but I’m tired of you lying about my motivations and blaming me for not just accepting what you say without any logic, reason, or evidence.
438734
For your information, the reason I didn’t respond before was because I wasn’t interested. But, since you oh-so insist on having a response from me, I’ll give you one.
There are several reasons behind why you wouldn’t believe me if I presented evidence.
My evidence comes from the grass, the earth, the water, the animals, and even you and me. Even before I started believing in Jesus, I literally couldn’t deny that everything was made and designed with a purpose. Every time I’d examine something outside of a manmade object so closely, I’d notice that it all seems to be made like it was handcrafted.
The reason why I say that you wouldn’t believe me if I presented something to you, even if it’s right out of the ordinary, is this:
No matter what I show you, and no matter what answers I give, you’re always going to deny it. There are many signs that show how logical the existence of God is more than the other way around, but you’ll only pass them off. You claim that you’re open to seeing how the existence of a loving Lord is possible, yet you’re only going to pass it off as false anyway because you want to be the one with the answers and you want to be the right one.
That is why I haven’t seen much point in trying to convince you, because every time I do...it’d be like talking to a wall.
438463
438461
I’ve given you a few weeks and while I still welcome your response, it’s time I corrected this lie.
I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. If you give me evidence, or an argument, then I will examine it honestly. If I notice an issue with it then I will point it out. If it doesn’t have any issues (it’s not logically fallacious, it’s testable/falsifiable, and it’s demonstrable) then I would enthusiastically accept it and any conclusions that it leads to.
This idea that you have the evidence but you won’t tell me what it is because I’ll just discount it automatically is bull****. It’s a cop out, a way of dodging actually having to admit you don’t have good evidence. It’s not just you, anyone caught up in a cult that peddles conspiracy theories (like flat earthism or the abrahamic magic man in the sky mythology) falls victim to this way of thinking (yes Christianity is a cult, it’s just big and popular enough that it’s not usually referred to as such).
You have your wishful thinking and your comforting beliefs and that’s fine, but they aren’t evidence. Kindly don’t blame me for the shortcomings of your beliefs. That’s not fair. I have an open mind to any data you would like to present to back up your claims, it’s just not open so much as to let my brain slip out.
438461
What makes you say that?
438460
So far you’ve said faith and hope are: qualities that define humanity, they produce strength/courage/foresight, they are like food and are part of our DNA, and they will eventually come to those who are open to them.
This is confused and contradictory. If faith/hope is part of our DNA then feeding on them would be deadly. If they define humanity but only come to some humans, then that means people that don’t have them are definitionally not human.
Don’t tell me what they are like, or what they produce, tell me what you actually mean. If faith is the label you use to refer to your belief in god, and hope is the comfort that your belief gives you, then that’s totally fine, just say so!
I mean no offence when I say this: I don’t understand what you mean when you talk about faith and hope. A definition needs to explain what something is and what it isn’t. If your definition of a term is so elastic that it can include everything from humanity to DNA to food to thoughts... then it’s a completely useless definition. It’s not communicating a single clear idea.
Sorry, I can’t even begin to process this until I understand what you mean by faith and hope.
438457
Even if I do present evidence of God’s existence, you obviously won’t believe it. You’ll just debunk as not evidence at all, which is typical of people like you.
Evidence is still basically something that people see, and they can be deceived by what they see all the same. It’s like saying anything on your television set is true, when not all of it is.
People will also claim that various theories are fact without even proving their hypothesis or without having something to present their claims, which is basically a lot like what I’ve said.
438456
Faith and hope are parts of us that a person will eventually come to choose whether to open their doors or not.
438456
Faith and hope are basically one and the same. And in a way, they’re both like something to feed on and a part of our DNA. The only difference is that they’re something that must be ignited first.
438454
No, I don’t say that. I’ve seen magicians do tricks and illusions that I don’t believe were real. I can’t see wind or gravity and yet I believe they are real.
If you care about the truth, then yes I happen to believe that evidence is the best way to get there (even though it’s not perfect). If I’m wrong and there’s a better way, then please share it!
Truth is that which comports with reality. We observe reality and then compare our data with others to substantiate it. A fact is independently objectively verifiable data. Evidence is a body of facts that are positively indicative of or exclusively concordant with a given postulation. (Adapted from an Aron Ra quote)
Not the way I defined it. If it’s something that can be bent or twisted so easily then it isn’t fact based evidence, it’s just unfounded assertion. I agree that people might call it evidence, but that’s just playing word games. When I ask for evidence, I’m asking for what I defined above.
Agreed, which is why I’m an atheist. I am a sceptic, meaning I portion my belief to the evidence.
No, you are mistaken here. A confession helps (although sometimes they are fake), but in many cases evidence collected by investigators does lead to a guilty verdict. It 100% depends on the case, on the amount and quality of the evidence (including confessions).
But to go with your analogy for a moment, can you please show me the confession where god says he’s guilty of existing? If not, is there any other evidence of gods existence?
438454
No, it doesn’t. To say that faith and hope are qualities that define humanity, doesn’t really define them. DNA defines humanity, is faith just DNA? Food gives us strength, is hope the same as food? Do you consider faith and hope as 2 words for the same thing, or are they different?
What is faith? What is hope?
438445
Faith and hope are qualities that define humanity. They give us strength, courage, the ability to look forward to the future more than backward to the past, to remember that there’s a beginning and an end, and to look death straight in the eye and not cower before it.
Without faith. Or hope. Humanity would hardly find a reason to live. There would be more death, wars, suffering, any kind of chaos you can imagine. We would have nothing to look forward to nor think that things will get better more than worse.
You say that ‘seeing is believing’ and that evidence of something is all that matters, but in reality...evidence can be bent and twisted to support lies more than truth. A person who believes everything they see without a second thought or a sneaking suspicion that there’s more than meets the eye is someone who can easily be mislead and duped.
It’s like a court case. Even with all the investigations and clues detectives and cops discover to back themselves up, it would take a lot more than what they find and see to win a case. In order to win a case and prove a person is guilty or innocent, they would ultimately need a confession in the long run. Otherwise, they could very well be putting an innocent bystander in prison and the real criminal could get away with his schemes.
Does that make sense?
438443
Can I ask you the same questions?
What is faith? And what is hope? What do you think the world would be like without them?
438443
Great questions! IMHO:
Faith is believing something with no good evidence, or believing something in spite of contradictory evidence. It is not a reliable path to truth, so I take no part in it.
Hope is an expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen. It’s the ability to imagine things being better than they are. When paired with determination, it is a critical component of every project that has ever improved human life on our planet.
Without faith the world would be a far better place. There would still be war and strife and corruption, but there would be a lot less. Good people would still do good and bad people would still do bad. The good people that are tricked through misplaced faith to do bad things, that would be eliminated. I hope to someday live in such a world. (Note: if god/magic is real and someone provides evidence of it, then I would believe in them. I would believe based on evidence, not faith. Removing faith doesn’t remove your god, unless you agree that there isn’t any actual evidence for him.)
Without hope the world would be a far worse place. I don’t even know if we would still be around as a species. It’s hard to say for sure, but I think changing from a hunter gather to a farming society took hope. Heck, just going out and hunting probably takes a degree of hope. (There’s nothing about hope that requires a belief in god. Religion takes things like hope, morality, and community and makes it seem like it’s the source of these things, which of course it isn’t.)