Points of Canon: S5x08 - The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone

I only have a few episodes left. And this is a historically important one.

• Chronologically, Friendship Castle obviously exists, and so does the Cutie Map, but we never see the roots of the library tree in the throne room despite multiple opportunities. We only see Ponyville outside very briefly, leaving the season undetermined, we can just say it’s not winter. In fact, the scenes at the Castle are so short that it’s possible for them to occur even after Starlight became a student, so this episode can float a long way up and down as needed.
• “I’ve been waiting for just the right time to finally try Granny Pie’s super-special triple-chocolate, fifteen-layer marjolaine recipe!” Now, we know Pinkie can’t have more than two grandmothers, unless her middle name is Heimdallr. It also has to be the same Granny Pie that taught her the laughter litany against fear. And seeing as how Igneous Rock Pie has the Pie component in his name, and all the children do, but Cloudy Quartz apparently does not, this means that “Granny Pie” is his mother. Consequently, “Nana Pinkie,” the one who told her about the mirror pool, as described in Too Many Pinkie Pies would have to be Cloudy Quartz’s mother. Yes, I’m just reiterating that, but that will help everyone find this derived factoid later. The question of how exactly did Igneous become so traditionalist and austere after being born to someone who bakes 15-layer cakes remains unanswered, but there surely is a story in it.
• In a fit of tailikinesis, Pinkie uses the tip of her tail to clean her rump. Notice that the magic glow of the cutie mark does not shine through the layer of whatever particular sweet substance she stained her coat with. She also maneipulates the whisk.
• “I know you can do this, Gummy! You’re the best alligator baker I’ve ever met!” It’s interesting that Gummy falls over immediately as Pinkie leaves, suggesting that he actually isn’t capable of baking, and the ending of the episode concurs. We can’t trust Pinkie’s statements pretty much at all, can we?
• “The map is summoning you to Griffonstone, the very heart of the griffon kingdom!” Griffonstone is “the heart of” a “griffon kingdom,” rather than the kingdom itself. We never find out the name of the kingdom itself, if it even has a different one.
• “Yeah, I mean Gilda! When she came to Ponyville, she was a total jerk to all my friends, especially Pinkie Pie!” Rainbow is still bitter about Gilda. Notice that no matter where do you stick these two episodes in the chronology, it has been at least ~8 months since Griffon the Brush Off, and probably a lot more.
• “In ancient times, griffons were known to be as greedy as dragons, always hoarding their bits and other treasures.” Well, the times were just ancient enough for bits to exist.
• “But all that changed when King Grover found the mysterious golden Idol of Boreas. Legend says the Idol of Boreas was made from the dust of golden sunsets, blown across the mountains by the north winds. Possessing the Idol of Boreas filled the griffons’ hearts with pride.” Notice that Grover found, rather than created the idol, and yet this produced enough pride to keep the griffons cohesive. The only way this makes sense in my mind is when Griffonstone is a modern or nearly modern state, post-Nightmare, while the idol is known to have been created by a much earlier, pre-Nightmare griffon culture. That way the pride would be justified, griffons could feel themselves the rightful heirs of whatever achievement in knowledge or arts the idol represented.
• We do not know if the images shown to us are present in the book verbatim or not, but the idol is interesting in that it is definitely not a person of any kind – it’s a wing curled in a spiral over a red spherical jewel. Why is it even called an idol?
• “It was actually Gilda’s visit that made me curious. So I picked up ‘Bygone Griffons of Greatness,’ and I’ve been hooked ever since!” Twilight has been interested in griffon culture ever since Griffon the Brush Off – but how exactly did she escape knowing about the loss of the idol in this case?
• “No, no, if the map wanted me to go to the coolest kingdom in all of Equestria and tour the palace and see the actual idol that unites an entire species, which would be super amazing, I’m sure it would’ve said so.” Notice that Griffonstone is all the way on the other continent. There are only two ways this makes sense: “Equestria” refers to the world itself, or, Griffonstone is or at some point was part of Equestria the nation. See RTAC #12.
• Twilight lights up her horn and the map fades – indicating that it can be turned off voluntarily, even if it can’t be forced to cough up a mission on command.
• “Always carry plenty of bits. The griffons are sure to help you as long as you share the wealth.” Rainbow does impressions of her friends rather often, doesn’t she?
• “Upon arriving in Griffon Gorge, be sure to pause and cast your eyes northerly, up the Hyperborean Mountains, taking in the breathtaking beauty of Griffonstone.” Notice that the train continues on south. The map shows no track going further on, so I’m wondering how exactly does this work. Presumably, there’s a loop for it to turn around? In any case, the off-railroad track continues from the station for quite a significant distance, the station is far from Griffonstone proper. I wonder why exactly.
• “Once in Griffonstone proper, go immediately to the palace and introduce yourself to the king.” The start of the idea of friendship ambassadors, perhaps? Notice that as Twilight narrates this, along the way, both Pinkie and Rainbow have acquired and subsequently lost fur-trimmed tebetey hats. so they had to have passed through some civilization to arrive to Griffonstone itself.

• “‘Bygone Griffons of Greatness’ was written a long time ago, and it ends with the coronation of the fourteenth king of the griffons, King Guto.” This is a very important phrase, in that it permits us to estimate for how long did Griffonstone exist:

  • Grampa Gruff says, “King Guto was the last king of Griffonstone, and we all lived miserably ever after.” Guto was the last king of the griffons. They don’t come with numbers, so it’s very unlikely it wasn’t the same Guto. No queens or other matriarchs have ever been mentioned. Which is not proof that they never existed, but is good grounds to assume they did not.
  • Grampa Gruff also says, “The first griffon king, King Grover, united our kind like we’ve never been united before or since!” – so Grover was the first king of Griffonstone.
  • Allowing very generous reigns of 50 years each, we get that Griffonstone existed as a unified Griffon kingdom for at most 700 years, and probably much less. In all likelihood, the average reign is 20 years long, resulting in ~280 years.
  • Kingo Guto’s reign would have to have ended relatively recently, for news of the loss of the idol to have avoided Twilight’s ears.

  Like I mentioned before in RTAC #12, it seems most likely to me that Griffonstone peacefully seceded from Equestria ~300 years ago, after a surge of nationalism prompted by the discovery of the Idol of Boreas. That’s why it’s counted as a “kingdom of Equestria,” and none of the griffons have any issues communicating in Equish, while at the same time, it is independent, and ponies don’t seem to care particularly about what happened to their neighbor.

• “And don’t forget to sample some famous griffon scones. They’re supposed to be the best.” See also the éclairs in The Journal of the Two Sisters. What is it with griffons and baked goods?…
• Griffon architecture is interesting is that while they do live in houses, houses are arranged as nests on the outside. We don’t see the inside in this episode. I wonder, do they lay eggs? Logic would suggest no, because the half that’s supposed to give birth is a mammal, but mythology says otherwise.
• “Maybe the map should’ve called Rarity instead of us.” As Rainbow is saying that, they are passing two griffons playing a game with polyhedral dice, a D8 and D20.
• Notice that none of the griffons are surprised to see ponies in Griffonstone, nor are they actively hostile.
• Grampa Gruff tests the bit with his beak, implying that bits are actual gold, or at least were at some point.
• “From one king to the next, Griffonstone and our golden idol were the envy of all other species.” Notice the use of the word “species” for this episode, rather than the incorrect, but more common “race,” or the inapplicable “tribe.”
• “That’s when Arimaspi came to steal our griffon treasure!” We still don’t know who or what Arimaspi is. There’s the area marked on the map as “Arimaspi territory” and it’s still a total and complete blank.
• “Tough tailfeathers! No refunds!” Notice that neither griffons nor pegasi have feathers in their tails.
• “No wonder Twilight’s book ended with the coronation of King Guto. Who would want to record a history that sad?” That probably isn’t the reason, but the sentiment itself might account for some conspicuous holes in the history of Equestria.
• “Pinkie, I think I know why the map sent us here.” Notice that Rainbow is saying this scene while standing in the abandoned throne room. Is there even a regency council?
• “Uh, I’ll need some rope, a grappling hook, and a guide to take me down to the Abysmal Abyss.” Griffons do have an economy, however stagnant, and notice that the shop doesn’t employ, say, a guard.
• So what exactly causes the winds in the Abysmal Abyss? If it were just a fissure or a ravine of some kind, it would still require to be open from the side for its entire altitude for this to happen, but since nobody ever recovered the idol, it’s probably something else.
• “The library’s right there, so why don’t you go inside and leave me alone?!” The library did, indeed, exist, until very recently: The books aren’t anywhere near damaged enough for its destruction to have happened long ago.

• “But how do you break into uplifting musical numbers with no singing?” Notice the explicit sign forbidding musical numbers.

  • There has to be some authority capable of enforcing it.
  • Griffons find the music of harmony disruptive.
• “Oh, we got griffon scones. That’s my specialty.” Gilda’s primary occupation is baking, surprisingly.
• “That’s my Grampa Gruff’s secret recipe.” Grampa Gruff is actually Gilda’s grandfather, rather than just a random griffon, which implies that Gilda is probably originally from Griffonstone rather than anywhere else.
• “I just want to sell enough of these so that I can leave this lousy town.” It’s still an open question why did Gilda come back here in the first place.
• “Uh, you think you could tighten the strap on my helmet?” Upon receiving a request for more bits instead, Rainbow tightens it with her wing.
• Notice the apparently electrical, presumably battery powered helmet lights.
• “Baking powder. Lucky for you, I never leave home without it!” Notice that baking powders are relatively modern, and some cultures simply don’t use them, instead relying on yeast. It’s more likely that this is what the scones are actually missing.

• Gilda’s flashback is apparently not told to Pinkie – it’s explicitly Gilda’s own memories, and as such, has to be as reliable as memories get.

  • Rainbow Dash doesn’t have her cutie mark, Hoops does, but Dumb-Bell and Score don’t. Which would date it to the same time period as the original Sonic Rainboom and earlier. But Fluttershy does not behave like she has ever met Gilda, and the other way round. So how did they avoid interacting?
  • Rainbow skids in the air, producing a (weak) cloud straight out of her hooves.
• Gilda encounters the skull of the creature previously depicted as Arimaspi while Grampa Gruff was narrating, but here’s an interesting observation: The rest of the body is missing entirely, save for one minor bone. For the skull to end up on a ledge like that, and in this position, Arimaspi had to have lost his head while falling down, if not before. And since the Idol of Boreas is on the ledge exactly opposite, if anyone helped him part with the head, they probably never descended into the Abyss proper.
• “Nothing’s better than gold to a griffon.” Gilda says it like she is surprised it can possibly be anything else, so it’s a wonder no hint of this attitude appeared previously.
• “That’s the first nice thing any griffon’s ever said to me!” So – why is Gilda here at all, again?
• “But you’ll come back and visit, right?” There is no in-series evidence Rainbow ever came back.

Following ponies, griffons adopted the progressive bit coin economy, but since they couldn’t mine bit coins… I’ll shut up.

Comments

[Mitch H]

Canonical griffon world-building makes me channel left-wing foreign policy bromides, and I find myself raving about ponies' condescending neo-colonial attitudes about foreign cultures... It was always interesting that the showrunners resolutely did not look at fanon's fairly developed 'Warrior Race' Klingonification of the griffons, and said, nope! They're actually Ferengi! And culturally imploded Ferengi at that, because greed, pride and selfishness are non-functional as founding precepts in the magical land of Equestria!

Griffonstone is like a double-take-that against fannish notions of beaked Klingons on the one side, and the idea of non-cooperative self-interest on the other.

[Comnislasher]

Why is it even called an idol?

Well, Thones in angel hierarchy looks like wheels with hundreds of eyes on rims. So maybe we deal with something similar here?

King Guto was the last king of Griffonstone, and we all lived miserably ever after.

So gryphon lands are pony-Earth Somalia? Becuase they sure look like a failed state.

It’s still an open question why did Gilda come back here in the first place.

Maybe she been deported for some reasons?

So how did they avoid interacting?

Fluttershy hears about her and puts lots of effort to not meet scary gryphon?

[Impossible Numbers]

Random thoughts:

My own pet hypothesis is that the griffons didn't just ignore their more recent history, but actively censored said history, to the point of demanding Celestia help them save face by not mentioning it among ponydom. It kind of helps that I assume Griffonstone is nowhere near the most relatively developed area in the Griffon Kingdom, or else we'd have to explain where both the griffon diplomats and the Equestria Games team came from (who'd organize them, for a start?).

Plus ponies don't seem particularly well-versed in other species anyway; look what happened to Zecora. Admittedly, it doesn't explain why Rainbow and Pinkie had no trouble getting in; the hypothesis would imply some strict border control.

As for Arimaspi's skull (typo, by the way), I suppose the ledge might have been bigger when he fell, and erosion took both the ledge and the rest of his skeleton. Unless it was notably weak, though, that might require far more time than seems reasonable.

Regarding the "why doesn't she just leave?" point, I imagine Gilda's formal address is in Griffonstone, and griffons are absolutely going to be tight about things like mortgages and rent. She can't just up and fly away.

Maybe Grandpa Gruff and his ilk put up the signs. Nothing rules out informal leadership or unofficial authority. It'd be just like him to try and kick back against the post-monarchical free-for-all, though he doesn't seem to have resisted the griffon greed.

Nana Pinkie and Granny Pie could just be the same person, couldn't they? Admittedly, I think the show writers just didn't keep their notes straight, but one person could have two names, I'd have thought, especially depending on mood or the usage of nicknames.

Any speculation on why Grandpa Gruff has so few feathers on his head? Species variation, natural side effect of ageing, or an accident akin to the scar on his eye?

I think "tough tailfeathers" belongs in the same class as "flying feather" and "featherbrain", in that "feather" is simply used indiscriminately as an emphatic or insulting term among flying creatures. Perhaps to indicate that some topic is too light, flighty, or insubstantial to take seriously? Bit of amateur etymology for you, e.g. "no one gives a flying feather" means "this is so petty and insubstantial they wouldn't even give you a feather for/over it".

Lastly, I really like this breakdown of the Griffon Kingdom's chronology. I wonder if there's a way to tell from the state of decay of the buildings precisely how long ago the collapse of Griffonstone's society was meant to be?

[Comnislasher]

4757674

or else we'd have to explain where both the griffon diplomats and the Equestria Games team came from (who'd organize them, for a start?).

Don't know about diplomats but there a possibility that gryphon team at Equestria Games are consist of gryphons that live in Equestria.

[Impossible Numbers]

4757676

True, but back in Griffon the Brush Off, I'm sure Rarity makes a comment about how rare griffons are in Equestria. The only two individual citizens we saw before The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone, other than diplomats and competitors, were Gilda and Gustave le Grande (two bakers, at that; what a notable coincidence).

I'm not saying it's impossible that a particular town has enough griffon representatives to form a team - even an exclusively griffon team at that - but it seems more plausible to me that they came from an explicitly griffon-majority territory.

[Oliver]

4757665

Fluttershy hears about her and puts lots of effort to not meet scary gryphon?

She didn’t when they met in Griffon the Brush-Off.

[Oliver]

4757674

It kind of helps that I assume Griffonstone is nowhere near the most relatively developed area in the Griffon Kingdom, or else we’d have to explain where both the griffon diplomats and the Equestria Games team came from (who’d organize them, for a start?).

See my notes for Equestria Games. I am pretty sure those are Equestrian griffons, no matter where their settlements are actually located. It’s still open to interpretation, like everything else, but there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence.

As for Arimaspi’s skull (typo, by the way), I suppose the ledge might have been bigger when he fell, and erosion took both the ledge and the rest of his skeleton.

It could be, but the way it’s situated makes me think it’s quite unlikely: It’s upright on that ledge.

Nana Pinkie and Granny Pie could just be the same person, couldn’t they?

They could be, but why would they need to be when Pinkie needs to have two grandmothers anyway? :)

Any speculation on why Grandpa Gruff has so few feathers on his head? Species variation, natural side effect of ageing, or an accident akin to the scar on his eye?

Species variation. Griffons seem to combine the genome for numerous distinct bird species.

Lastly, I really like this breakdown of the Griffon Kingdom’s chronology. I wonder if there’s a way to tell from the state of decay of the buildings precisely how long ago the collapse of Griffonstone’s society was meant to be?

Alas, nothing solid. For example, they look much less damaged in The Fault In Our Cutie Marks, which depicts scenes which happen simultaneously with this episode.

[Comnislasher]

4757679

but it seems more plausible to me that they came from an explicitly griffon-majority territory.

My problem with this is that Equestria Games looks more like internal sports competition rather than something worldwide. Teams in Equestria Games fielded by pony towns rather than by nations. If we assume that Equestria Games are world sports event then ponies have a huge advantage over gryphons or any other team.

Well, maybe it's more like a Commonwealth Games... Which would mesh quite fine with idea that at some point gryphons been a part of Equestria.

[Mitch H]

It occurs to me that we've got every part of a on-screen death here except the word die. The AramaspI falls, is never heard from again, and Rainbow finds their remains in a very literal sense. The only censorship involved is verbal. Death is onscreen and canonical.

[Papa Dragon]

4757705

When was the hearts and hooves episode with the love poison.
When the cmc are doing their musical number we see a funeral. Death has been onscreen and canon for a long while now.

[Thorno]

“Baking powder. Lucky for you, I never leave home without it!” Notice that baking powders are relatively modern, and some cultures simply don’t use them, instead relying on yeast. It’s more likely that this is what the scones are actually missing.

On the Townsends18th century cooking show (Chemical Leavening Discoveriespt. 1), the presentor mentions that before chemical leavening, they used lots of different, usually difficult, methods to make baked goods fluffy. Yeast was good, but you needed an active beer industry, and a griffon brewer would certainly charge Gilda for his excess barm!

[Mioko]

Igneous Rock: Surely thy name is not but Granny Smith. I am called Igneous Rock Pie, son of Feldspar Granite Pie.

According to the transcript of Hearthbreakers, the father of Igneous was also in the rock farming business. Which makes me assume that he was the more serious one in the family that Igneous admired more -- admired enough to continue the family business.

Nana Pinkie and Granny Pie could just be the same person, couldn’t they?

Yeah, I assume they're two different people as well. I think would reserve two different names for her two different grandmothers. Besides that, we finally know where she got her name from out of all the rock stuff.

[Impossible Numbers]

4757691

Well, maybe it's more like a Commonwealth Games... Which would mesh quite fine with idea that at some point gryphons been a part of Equestria.

That's close to what I was thinking for the Griffon Kingdom. They might be under the protection of Equestria officially, with the reigns of Grover through to Guto representing a temporary split from Equestria as their own kingdom, before the Arimaspi theft meant they had to come crawling back to Equestria again.

[Admiral Biscuit]

“I know you can do this, Gummy! You’re the best alligator baker I’ve ever met!”

He could be the only alligator baker she knows, therefore making him the best; it's also possible that Pinkie knows other alligator bakers and they're much, much worse than Gummy. Sugarcube Corner isn't burned down when she comes back, for instance.

The map shows no track going further on, so I’m wondering how exactly does this work. Presumably, there’s a loop for it to turn around? In any case, the off-railroad track continues from the station for quite a significant distance, the station is far from Griffonstone proper. I wonder why exactly.

If it's the end of the line (and it might not be), it's possible that they have a balloon track or a wye located somewhere beyond the station, so that the train could turn around. Or they could also have a runaround track and a turntable to put the locomotive on the other end of the train for the return journey. Given the terrain, that's likely, since all of those options take a decent amount of flat ground (although the D&RGW did famously build a covered turntable on a mountain to solve a problem with switchbacks).

Given the surrounding terrain, and the fact that griffons can fly, it might be cheaper and more practical to put the station as close to Griffonstone on flat ground as they can, rather than run an expensive route all the way to the top, especially if there isn't a lot of rail service needed.

[schpeelah]

The only way this makes sense in my mind is when Griffonstone is a modern or nearly modern state, post-Nightmare, while the idol is known to have been created by a much earlier, pre-Nightmare griffon culture. That way the pride would be justified, griffons could feel themselves the rightful heirs of whatever achievement in knowledge or arts the idol represented.

No other significant properties of the Idol are described, yet it's vital to the existence of the griffon kingdom - its discovery and loss mark te beginning and end of it - and this line is part of the description of how the kingdom came to be. I have always interpreted this line as being the simple description of the Idol's magical effect.

“It was actually Gilda’s visit that made me curious. So I picked up ‘Bygone Griffons of Greatness,’ and I’ve been hooked ever since!” Twilight has been interested in griffon culture ever since Griffon the Brush Off – but how exactly did she escape knowing about the loss of the idol in this case?

Well, it's not called the Modern Griffons of Greatness. History is one of Twilight's main interests, current affairs is not. Still, rather strange.

Twilight lights up her horn and the map fades – indicating that it can be turned off voluntarily, even if it can’t be forced to cough up a mission on command.

While it doesn't cough up missions on command, I get the impression it can show the map itself on command, with how often we see it active before or without a mission being issued.

Kingo Guto’s reign would have to have ended relatively recently, for news of the loss of the idol to have avoided Twilight’s ears.

Yet it needs to be relatively long time ago for Gilda to doubt the Idol like she does. At least not within her memory.

“No wonder Twilight’s book ended with the coronation of King Guto. Who would want to record a history that sad?” That probably isn’t the reason, but the sentiment itself might account for some conspicuous holes in the history of Equestria.

It sounds like the likely reason this particular book at least. Bygone Griffons of Greatnes rather sounds like a book about the high points of griffon history.

So what exactly causes the winds in the Abysmal Abyss? If it were just a fissure or a ravine of some kind, it would still require to be open from the side for its entire altitude for this to happen, but since nobody ever recovered the idol, it’s probably something else.

Why would being open from the side ensure recovery?

“The library’s right there, so why don’t you go inside and leave me alone?!” The library did, indeed, exist, until very recently: The books aren’t anywhere near damaged enough for its destruction to have happened long ago.

Neither are the books in the Castle of the Sisters tho.

“I just want to sell enough of these so that I can leave this lousy town.” It’s still an open question why did Gilda come back here in the first place.

We never had any indication she ever had permanent residence anywhere else, and she probably wants to take her grandfather with her.

4757691 4757961

That's close to what I was thinking for the Griffon Kingdom. They might be under the protection of Equestria officially, with the reigns of Grover through to Guto representing a temporary split from Equestria as their own kingdom, before the Arimaspi theft meant they had to come crawling back to Equestria again.

I just take Twilight's line on face value - Griffonstone is part of Equestria, albeit the poorest part (possible tied with the region the Rock Farm is in). I don't particularly see a string reason why not.

Especially now, as the kingdom itself collapsed so it's not even a distinct unit anymore. And we do see that one owl-tiger griffon as a delegate at Equestria Summit.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Nana Pinkie and Granny Pie could just be the same person, couldn’t they?

It is also possible that in this case "granny" (or "nana") is used as an honorific (per Granny Weatherwax in Diskworld).

[howard035]

The first and biggest Friendship is Imperialism.

 In fact, the scenes at the Castle are so short that it’s possible for them to occur even after Starlight became a student, so this episode can float a long way up and down as needed.

Some sort of soft lock with the comics where Griffonstone has some kind of friendship summit, we see a fancy-looking Griffonstone king visiting Celestia on her birthday, basically anything that indicates Griffonstone is a functional state is probably after this episode and that comic that mentions the friendship summit.

Yes, I’m just reiterating that, but that will help everyone find this derived factoid later. The question of how exactly did Igneous become so traditionalist and austere after being born to someone who bakes 15-layer cakes remains unanswered, but there surely is a story in it.

Of course, the interesting question is how one of Pinkie's Grannies new that specific myth from halfway around the country in the first place. As most people reading this know, Mitch has come up with a fantastic fic to answer this, but I should point out it suggests that if Pinkie is related to anyone in town, like say the Cakes, it is probably through Cloudy Quartz's side.

Griffonstone is “the heart of” a “griffon kingdom,” rather than the kingdom itself.

I think this might be similar to the way the Crystal Empire is a city state as well. I remember looking at that map and realizing that if Griffons don't farm or ranch, the citizens of Griffonstone would need all that territory around their city just to feed themselves.

“But all that changed when King Grover found the mysterious golden Idol of Boreas. Legend says the Idol of Boreas was made from the dust of golden sunsets, blown across the mountains by the north winds. Possessing the Idol of Boreas filled the griffons’ hearts with pride.” Notice that Grover found, rather than created the idol, and yet this produced enough pride to keep the griffons cohesive.

This seems way less probable than say Windigos. It seems far more likely that Grover was an ambitious Griffon that created the idol, or got someone else to create it (the same being who made the Dragonstone Scepter) and then just told all the other Griffons he found it. Notice that for all the talk if it being made of "dust of golden sunsets" there's a big fancy rock in the center that could hold an enchantment, just like every other powerful magical artifact we've seen. The effects of the Idol do not seem that different from say a low-grade permanent Want It Need It spell. Could Celestia have made it for smart geopolitical reasons? Maybe.

The only way this makes sense in my mind is when Griffonstone is a modern or nearly modern state, post-Nightmare, while the idol is known to have been created by a much earlier, pre-Nightmare griffon culture. That way the pride would be justified, griffons could feel themselves the rightful heirs of whatever achievement in knowledge or arts the idol represented.

I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting here. You think the idol originally came from an ancient culture the more modern Griffons had pride in?

Twilight has been interested in griffon culture ever since Griffon the Brush Off – but how exactly did she escape knowing about the loss of the idol in this case?

Presumably the book was published centuries ago, the failed state of Griffonstone is not friendly to new books.

Notice that Griffonstone is all the way on the other continent.There are only two ways this makes sense: “Equestria” refers to the world itself, or, Griffonstone is or at some point was part of Equestria the nation.

At this point I think we've seen ponies refer to the planet as Equestria a bunch of times.

 In any case, the off-railroad track continues from the station for quite a significant distance, the station is far from Griffonstone proper. I wonder why exactly.

The map has that railroad line keep running for a huge distance off to the side. My guess is the other end is Maretonia. Also explains how the Griffons got a rail station if they didn't have a functional government, whoever built the Maretonian?-Equestrian Express just threw together a little terminal as a way station.

Notice that as Twilight narrates this, along the way, both Pinkie and Rainbow have acquired and subsequently lost fur-trimmed tebetey hats. so they had to have passed through some civilization to arrive to Griffonstone itself.

I figured someone on the train had a trolley and was selling souvenirs.

No queens or other matriarchs have ever been mentioned. Which is not proof that they never existed, but is good grounds to assume they did not.

Agreed. This is also a subtle suggestion of patriarchal society in Griffonstone, just because 14 eldest royal children in a row all being male seems implausible.

In all likelihood, the average reign is 20 years long, resulting in ~280 years.

I dunno, I think that's a bit short. I'd split the difference and go around 35 years, make it 500 years.

Kingo Guto’s reign would have to have ended relatively recently, for news of the loss of the idol to have avoided Twilight’s ears.

This is tricky. Twilight didn't do any formal studying of Griffonstone, she picked up one ancient book and read through it and then they got this mission all of a sudden. I could see her having zero awareness of what happened there 200 years ago. On the other hand, Gruff sounds rather like he lived through the fall of Guto. And the damage dealt to Griffonstone is inconsistent and hard to estimate. On the other other hand, the skull of the Arimaspi looks weathered and flesh-less enough that I think it would have to have been exposed to the elements for centuries.

Like I mentioned before in RTAC #12, it seems most likely to me that Griffonstone peacefully seceded from Equestria ~300 years ago, after a surge of nationalism prompted by the discovery of the Idol of Boreas. That’s why it’s counted as a “kingdom of Equestria,” and none of the griffons have any issues communicating in Equish, while at the same time, it is independent, and ponies don’t seem to care particularly about what happened to their neighbor.

I'm mixed. I think everyone on the planet speaks the same language, and the term "Equestria" is about as reliable as Moons. That said, we can all agree that there is some sort of mostly-Griffon city under the rule of Celestia.

I can't see pre-Boreas Griffons as possibly willing to acknowledge the rule of Celestia or Equestria, based on what we learn about them. What I speculate is that Celestia gave a magic idol to an ambitious young Griffon who asked her for a favor, and in exchange he promised to organize the disparate warring clans on her north-western border into a single stable government, an agreement Grover kept. At it's height the Griffon Kingdoms extended across the Northern half of the Eastern Continent, and even a bit of unused land in the Western tip, where no ponies wanted to live. After the fall of Guto, the Western part of the Griffon Kingdom seceded from basically pure anarchy in the capital and applied to become part of Equestria. The whole thing could have happened 100 years ago or 400 years ago.

What is it with griffons and baked goods?…

And Gustav Le Grande. No idea though.

Notice that none of the griffons are surprised to see ponies in Griffonstone, nor are they actively hostile.

If there's a stopover between Equestria and Maretonia in Griffonstone, the occasional pony tourist wandering by would be annoying but tolerated because they probably spend bits.

“That’s when Arimaspi came to steal our griffon treasure!” We still don’t know who or what Arimaspi is. There’s the area marked on the map as “Arimaspi territory” and it’s still a total and complete blank.

Good point. Also notice that the territory on the map has all of Equestria between the Arimaspi territory and Griffonstone.

“Tough tailfeathers! No refunds!” Notice that neither griffons nor pegasi have feathers in their tails.

I think "tailfeathers" might be a euphemism for dingleberries.

“No wonder Twilight’s book ended with the coronation of King Guto. Who would want to record a history that sad?” That probably isn’t the reason, but the sentiment itself might account for some conspicuous holes in the history of Equestria.

That and anarchic states aren't very conducive to the publishing industry, or even to hosting visiting scholars from other lands who want to write books about your country.

Is there even a regency council?

I think it's total anarchy, like Somalia in the 90s. Maybe elders from prominent families like Gruff are listened to, but no real government. (I think this is touched on even in recent comics, which treats the state failure of Griffonstone as the next biggest problem on the world stage after the Storm King).

Griffons do have an economy, however stagnant, and notice that the shop doesn’t employ, say, a guard.

That is a really good, really important point. Whether mutual greed and family clans kind of keep the economy basically operating and provide a layer of protection is only one possibility, but it's the best one I can think of. Alara Rogers had a great portrayal at Griffonstone in Not The Hero that tries to show how their state could function.

So what exactly causes the winds in the Abysmal Abyss? If it were just a fissure or a ravine of some kind, it would still require to be open from the side for its entire altitude for this to happen, but since nobody ever recovered the idol, it’s probably something else.

I thought the Ravine was open from the side for its entire altitude, but there's probably also some nasty magic involved.

The library did, indeed, exist, until very recently: The books aren’t anywhere near damaged enough for its destruction to have happened long ago.

That's a very good point. Perhaps the fall was only like 80 years ago, or perhaps some griffon was running a paid lending library until recently? (In the old days libraries were commercial affairs rather than government ones).

• There has to be some authority capable of enforcing it.
• Griffons find the music of harmony disruptive.

Some griffon could have just made that sign because they find singing ponies annoying, and no one bothered to take it down.

• “Oh, we got griffon scones. That’s my specialty.” Gilda’s primary occupation is baking, surprisingly.
• “That’s my Grampa Gruff’s secret recipe.”

What if Gruff had Gilda enrolled in Equestrian school just so she could come back to Griffonstone and say their scones are baked with the secrets of Equestrian baking?

• Notice the apparently electrical, presumably battery powered helmet lights.

I'd wager magic stones powering it, unless we think Equestria also uses batteries. The reason is that it seems more likely Griffons are trading for a power source than creating batteries on their own, that requires an independent technology base and infrastructure they don't seem capable of.

But Fluttershy does not behave like she has ever met Gilda, and the other way round. So how did they avoid interacting?

I remember noticing this, and having no idea how to resolve it. How about: Rainbow never really knew Fluttershy until after the Rainboom, then they became friends after she felt guilty about knocking her down. After her fall Fluttershy was homeschooled, but Rainbow came by and visited her all the time, but didn't discuss her other friends. Flutters and her brother being homeschooled explains a lot about both of them.

Arimaspi had to have lost his head while falling down, if not before. And since the Idol of Boreas is on the ledge exactly opposite, if anyone helped him part with the head, they probably never descended into the Abyss proper.

That's a great catch! My guess is the flashback we saw was a bit bowdlerized. The Griffons actually managed to decapitate the Arimaspi as it was escaping across the bridge but its body and the idol still fell into the Abyss. Probably the last pony that Gruff told that story to for bits wasn't a fan of the decapitation part so he pulled a Walt Disney.

• “That’s the first nice thing any griffon’s ever said to me!” So – why is Gilda here at all, again?

A very good question. The common theory is "so mad at Rainbow Dash for betraying her she wants to avoid all ponies from now." Kind of weak, but I've yet to think of anything better.

4757659

Griffonstone is like a double-take-that against fannish notions of beaked Klingons on the one side, and the idea of non-cooperative self-interest on the other.

I strongly agree. I always hated Griffons as the stereotypical Klingons in fanon, so I really liked this portrayal of their culture with a subervsion of that. However, I was really pissed that the Griffons didn't get their idol back and learned that Pony Ways was the real idol all along.

[Oliver]

4758107

No other significant properties of the Idol are described, yet it’s vital to the existence of the griffon kingdom - its discovery and loss mark te beginning and end of it - and this line is part of the description of how the kingdom came to be. I have always interpreted this line as being the simple description of the Idol’s magical effect.

Well, imagine a monolithic European Union, that existed for a few centuries.

Then someone finds the Scepter of Charlemagne, never mind if it’s real or not. For a brief period, digging up your familial relation to the ancient Franks becomes popular. This gets blown out of proportion and becomes a quick meme, fueled by some actual, if minor, dissatisfaction with how the Union treats the ancestral Frankish territories. Eventually, movements start popping up all over the place, calling for secession from the Union, because Franks are a blessed people who shall forge their own path, yadda, yadda, and they all start addressing the archaeologist who found the scepter to lead them to the bright happy future of an independent Francia, since he's obviously the Chosen One.

And that guy does somehow turn up an elevated propensity for leadership, and whether it is natural, or induced by the powers of the scepter, nobody really knows nor cares – those he leads don’t mind, and those that would rather avoid unrest and war figure it’s cheaper to just let them go and wait until they come whining back a few decades later.

This is obviously nonsense, but this is the kind of situation I imagine, structurally.

Yet it needs to be relatively long time ago for Gilda to doubt the Idol like she does. At least not within her memory.

Sounds likely that is within Grampa Gruff’s memory, though, but Gilda is the same 20-25 that Rainbow is, and that guy’s quite elderly.

Why would being open from the side ensure recovery?

Because then, the bottom of the ravine would be easily searched by approaching from the ground, since the winds would be much easier to withstand – nowhere to fall.

Neither are the books in the Castle of the Sisters tho.

Those are likely to be protected by the highly versatile unicorn magic, while griffon books don’t quite have such an advantage.

I just take Twilight’s line on face value - Griffonstone is part of Equestria, albeit the poorest part (possible tied with the region the Rock Farm is in). I don’t particularly see a string reason why not.

Except ponies leaving them in such a state really doesn’t sit well with the nearly-utopian Equestria seen elsewhere…

[Oliver]

4758913

Notice that for all the talk if it being made of “dust of golden sunsets” there’s a big fancy rock in the center that could hold an enchantment, just like every other powerful magical artifact we’ve seen.

Unlike every other artifact, however, it is a sphere.

I’m not quite sure what you’re suggesting here. You think the idol originally came from an ancient culture the more modern Griffons had pride in?

That is exactly what I’m suggesting, yes, a pre-Nightmare independent Griffon state that was great and cool – that Griffons knew was great and cool – until it was destroyed by some adversary or other and assimilated into Equestria. Possibly, conquered by ponies themselves, or maybe not.

My guess is the other end is Maretonia.

Possible, and at least gives us a halfway-sensible place to put it.

This is also a subtle suggestion of patriarchal society in Griffonstone, just because 14 eldest royal children in a row all being male seems implausible.

Considering that basically the only griffon of any authority at all that we see is Grampa Gruff, and most griffons who wear anything that looks like it costs money are male…

On the other other hand, the skull of the Arimaspi looks weathered and flesh-less enough that I think it would have to have been exposed to the elements for centuries.

Actually, that’s a very bad marker: In a place with constant strong, apparently dry winds, the disembodied skull would very quickly lose moisture and get sandblasted to cleanliness by dust particles. It could have been as little as fifty years.

I’m mixed. I think everyone on the planet speaks the same language, and the term “Equestria” is about as reliable as Moons.

Except Gustav le Grande with his francais accent…

That’s a very good point. Perhaps the fall was only like 80 years ago, or perhaps some griffon was running a paid lending library until recently?

Me, I think it’s both: The fall happened within living memory of the elders, like Gruff, and the library kept operating, whether paid lending or not, slipping further and further into disrepair, until quite recently, when it finally collapsed.

What if Gruff had Gilda enrolled in Equestrian school just so she could come back to Griffonstone and say their scones are baked with the secrets of Equestrian baking?

Not entirely unlikely. I’m suspecting her parents are in Equestria, though.

How about: Rainbow never really knew Fluttershy until after the Rainboom, then they became friends after she felt guilty about knocking her down.

There are slight problems with this: There’s that scene in Newbie Dash, when Rainbow receives the “Rainbow Crash” nickname for the first time. Fluttershy is there, and very pointedly, not chanting it together with the other children…

Probably the last pony that Gruff told that story to for bits wasn’t a fan of the decapitation part so he pulled a Walt Disney.

Not unlikely. The actual story he remembers is likely to be quite bloody, anyway…

I always hated Griffons as the stereotypical Klingons in fanon, so I really liked this portrayal of their culture with a subervsion of that.

I think it’s merely because “greed” starts with a G.

[schpeelah]

4758968

Sounds likely that is within Grampa Gruff’s memory, though, but Gilda is the same 20-25 that Rainbow is, and that guy’s quite elderly.

If she's just doubting how amazing it is, yes. I originally got the impression she's doubting it existed at all.

Because then, the bottom of the ravine would be easily searched by approaching from the ground, since the winds would be much easier to withstand – nowhere to fall.

It isn't on the bottom of the ravine though. It's on the cliffside, looks really high up too, looking down shows a bottomless abyss. Attempting approach from the bottom would be even harder.

We can actually see the "crack" at 5:00 as Pinkie and Rainbow first see Griffonstone - it splits the mountain in half.
derpicdn.net/img/view/2017/12/26/1616296.png
The idol did potentially become recoverable now, after it was knocked further down, if it went all the way down and survived, or if the wind is less powerful lower down.

Except ponies leaving them in such a state really doesn’t sit well with the nearly-utopian Equestria seen elsewhere…

Not really seeing it. Equestria isn't so great it couldn't possibly have an impoverished area like that.

[howard035]

4758978

Unlike every other artifact, however, it is a sphere.

That's an interesting fact. I wonder if a gem could be polished enough to appear to be a sphere.

That is exactly what I’m suggesting, yes, a pre-Nightmare independent Griffon state that was great and cool – that Griffons knew was great and cool – until it was destroyed by some adversary or other and assimilated into Equestria. Possibly, conquered by ponies themselves, or maybe not.

Interesting. That certainly fits with the comics and Flash Magnus. On the other hand, then Grover would label the artifact as such, rather than go around claiming the Idol was made of sunset dust. "This ancient Griffon Empire artifact from when we were awesome" seems a lot more inspiring than what we got.

Actually, that’s a very bad marker: In a place with constant strong, apparently dry winds

Shoot, yeah, I forgot about the winds.

Except Gustav le Grande with his francais accent…

Or Photo Finish with her accent. I mean, changlings and dragons all speak Equestrian without an accent. I think regional accents are just an affectation. Though perhaps the Equestrian Griffon city has their own unique Pfrench accent, just like Trottingham does.

Me, I think it’s both: The fall happened within living memory of the elders, like Gruff, and the library kept operating, whether paid lending or not, slipping further and further into disrepair, until quite recently, when it finally collapsed.

Yeah, between Gruff's personal recollection, the scouring of Abyssal Winds, and the relative intactness of a lot of things around here, I think we can go with around 80 years. I wonder if Gruff was supposed to rule? I mean, their family must be fairly prominent, if they can send their kids to international boarding schools. And he knows he it went down in the throne room.

Not entirely unlikely. I’m suspecting her parents are in Equestria, though.

The problem with that is it gives Gilda even more reason to be somewhere in Equestria instead of going back to Griffonstone in the first place.

Fluttershy is there, and very pointedly, notchanting it together with the other children…

I think Fluttershy would never join in teasing someone when she could remain silent, no matter who they are.

I think it’s merely because “greed” starts with a G.

...... Yeah, that does sound like the writers.

[B_Munro]

Gryphons traditionally _are_ supposed to guard treasure and gold (which one-eyed Arimaspians are supposed to steal)

(Of course, they are also traditionally valiant kings of birds and beasts, guardians of the divine, symbols of courage and boldness, etc., and not slum dwellers.)

[Frustration in Excelsis]

Why is it even called an idol?

Strictly speaking, an idol can be any object or artifact treated with reverence or worship. It can represent a specific entity, and many do, but this representation can be partial or symbolic, or the object could be venerated for its own sake.

but how exactly did she escape knowing about the loss of the idol in this case?

Likely, even the freshest information on Griffonstone in Equestria is very out of date. This would fit with how slowly news travel in other contexts -- see Daring Do in southern Equestria, the yaks' isolation, Celestia not knowing about the hippogriffs' disappearance despite their alliance, etc.

the station is far from Griffonstone proper. I wonder why exactly.

Hey, if you wanna be the one to lay tracks and drive trains up the slopes, ledges and peak Rainbow and Pinkie needed to climb up to reach the city...

[Oliver]

5001887

Strictly speaking, an idol can be any object or artifact treated with reverence or worship.

Strictly speaking, I doubt the show crew is aware of that.

Out in the PCRS Discord server, we eventually evolved the following theory, which explains some things and produces dramatic opportunities:

1. Long before the Nightmare, ancient griffons have achieved a great feat impossible for modern griffons or just about anyone else: They captured a spirit of the wind – possibly, a windigo – inside an object. They were calling the spirit “Boreas.” Whether the object possesses any useful properties as a result is immaterial, but it is a source of national pride, a wonder of the world like the Egyptian pyramids. The idol is “of Boreas” because it contains Boreas. Or rather, contained – more on that below.
2. With the decline of whichever griffon culture made the idol, the idol was lost, and the expanding Equestria eventually absorbed the griffon polity that is now Griffonstone.
3. The griffon that became king Grover eventually rediscovered the idol, which prompted a rise in nationalism. Soon, this resulted in Griffonstone seceding from Equestria sometime post-Nightmare – presumably, peacefully.
4. Grover’s dynasty lasted for a few hundred years, until about thirty years before the start of the series – long enough ago that Gilda, born afterwards, does not remember Griffonstone in its glory days, but Gruff still does. The Arimaspi, whoever that is, came to steal the idol. Griffons failed to put up sufficient resistance. However, things turned sour for Arimaspi – the idol was damaged, releasing Boreas, which resulted in the gem losing its red color, and Arimaspi’s untimely death.
5. To this day, Boreas, much reduced in power, but still mighty, is still howling in the Abysmal Abyss, attacking anyone and everything, producing the observed wind out of nowhere in particular. Every griffon knows that the idol is now worth no more than the gold it’s made of, which is not enough to justify the expense of fishing it out. It no longer contains Boreas, so while any halfway competent expedition would surely recover it, there’s no point whatsoever, and there is no way to rebuild Griffonstone based on the same premise – the symbol of power of ancient griffons, of the continuity of any potential modern dynasty with their rule, is forever gone, and whatever claimants exists, simply cannot scrounge up enough authority to quell the infighting between griffons without it. This plunged Griffonstone into a generation-long collective depression, from which they have yet to recover.
6. This is not something that Griffonstone griffons like to tell outsiders, as it constitutes widely felt national shame: Modern griffons turned out to be unworthy of the glory of their ancestors. Which is why, while the news might have made it into specialist literature, nobody updated a book written for tourists that Twilight latched on.

[Frustration in Excelsis]

5001919
Ooh. That's a very good take. It fits nicely with canon and fills in a fair few gaps to boot -- I might just adopt it for my own headcanon.

[Oliver]

5002210

Feel free.