Sunset Shimmer, the Twilights, Flash and Spruce. · 5:33pm Aug 1st, 2017
Show seems to take the Sci-Twi x Timber Spruce love seriously, or at least as seriously as it takes any love affairs on the show that have not turned into engagements or marriages. Proof of this is that in the little "Mad Twience" short, Sci-Twi has Timber's picture on her desk, which implies that a little more happened between them than just going to a dance together. And, of course, the Rainbooms in general have retained a connection with Camp Everfree, as they're fundraising for them in "Dance Magic."
I do have some problems with (Sci-) Twi and Timber Spruce, in that I don't think they're well-suited for each other. I think that if they fell for each other in real life I would see this as "Shy girl is intoxicated with being able to get a handsome guy to fall for her to the point of not really caring if they have that much in common," and probably a doomed love.
I don't know about Sunset Shimmer x (Sci-)Twi, at least romantically. I do see a strong friendship building there, but I think it's driven by protectiveness on Sunset's part, which in turn comes in part from Sunset's gratitude to Princess Twilight -- the Princess helped Sunset out of a moral trap, and Sunset is thus well-disposed toward her cognate.
The big argument against Sunset being in love with Sci-Twi is that Sunset seems happy that Timber Spruce and Sci-Twi are attracted to each other. Unless we assume that Sunset Shimmer is even more noble than I consider her, this would irritate her if Sunset were attracted to Sci-Twi. This is true unless we assume that Equestria is a total Free Love culture: Sci-Twi falling in love with Spruce would make it less likely that she would fall in love with Sunset; anyway, Sci-Twi isn't Equestrian.
But then, what do I know? I thought that the Show was going to get some mileage out of the obvious love-triangle between Princess Twilight, Sunset Shimmer and Flash Sentry, which they posed as early as the first Equestria Girls movie. But they've done nothing with it -- instead, the writers seem to hate Flash so much that they have had Twilight Sparkle completely lose interest in Flash after Rainbow Rocks (despite them almost kissing at the end), and what looked like Sunset's "I'm not worthy" disavowal of interest in Flash in the same movie has instead been turned into flat disinterest (much worse than outright hatred, from a romantic POV) by The Legend of Everfree.
This is a shame because it could instead have been mined as a source of Drama, and done so without threatening the Y7 rating. In An Equestrian Gentlemare, I state that the SWSV Sunset Shimmer is a demi-vierge because she did almost everything but have full physical intercourse with Flash Sentry, but that isn't actually necessary for Sunset to have emotionally cared about Flash a lot -- more than she lets on now. For further drama, Canon Sunset Shimmer is naturally rather stoic and guarded in expressing her emotions, so if she felt that her evil deeds had made her unworthy of Flash, she wouldn't let others see it; perhaps not even her closest friends.
One of the weaknesses of the Show in general has always been that they've taken "Don't make romance the focus" to mean "Mishandle and forget all romantic subplots." This is never more evident than in its awful treatment of Flash Sentry, who was created to be a Shallow Love Interest, and who has become the Butt Monkey of EQG, for no very obvious reason.
This is bad, because with a little effort they could tell some emotionally-deep stories about him, and confront Princess Twilight with an interesting and meaningful dilemma. They do, after all, literally come from different worlds, and Princess Twilight has a role that forbids immigration to his one.
Compared to that, there's not much to say about Sci-Twi and Timber Spruce. He's handsome and nice and reasonably smart (though not at her level); his specialty is natural sciences while hers appears to be physics and engineering (this is an inverse of the normal situation with female and male scientists in fiction, where women tend to be biologists and men physicists). There's no real obstacle to their love, nor really any strong motivation other than the obvious ones (he thinks she's nice and cute and smart; she thinks he's good and handsome and manly and above-average intellectually).
Ths may actually portend better for Sci-Twi and Spruce in terms of real-life happiness, but it's not as good for drama. The Show is missing some great story opportunities with Princess Twilight and Flash, and these are story opportunities that don't require going beyond their Y7 rating, even.
I saw Sunset's reaction to Flash's attempts to rekindle their friendship not as disinterest but distraction.
"Think we could, I dunno, hang out some time?"
"Sure, sounds good, gotta run, the guy who's behind the Gaia Everfree shenanigans is getting away bye!"
"Ugh. She always says that when she wants to avoid the subject."
In all seriousness, I could definitely see them work something out when Sunset isn't occupied with magic gone awry... which I suppose would be some point after graduation, if ever. Well, Flash, you'll always have Ditzy.
As for the other couple, each will likely make for a good romantic tutorial for the other after Twilight's social and Timber's physical isolation. Still, I don't see it lasting, though I freely admit that my shameless Sunlight shipping may be coloring my perceptions there. That said, I can definitely see them breaking it off amicably and remaining friends for the long haul.
As for Flash's discarded potential, that's where we come in. Filling in the gaps that the show creators can't or won't is one of the greatest things fan works can do.
4620310
I definitely see chemistry between Sunset Shimmer and Sci-Twi. I don't know if we should assume romantic chemistry though -- what could be happening here is pure Friendship (like Princess Twilight has with the other members of the Mane Six).
Show really doesn't give us enough information to decide, because we have no way of knowing whether or not both Sunset Shimmer and Sci-Twi are attracted to females. The only claimed romantic relationship in Sunset's past is with Flash, but we don't know if she felt sexual desire for him. (I obviously assume that SWSV Sunset did, to the point that she considered giving up her scheme to return in triumph to Equestria). Sci-Twi seems both sexually attracted to and emotionally very sentimental regarding Spruce Timber.
Such of course wouldn't preclude Sci-Twi and Sunset from feeling desire toward one another, as they might be bisexual. I don't know if either of them is polyamorous, though.
I'm going to agree with FoME here and say that Sunset was less disinterested in Flash and more feeling a bit overwhelmed and distracted by everything going on at the time.
That said, I do wish they'd done more with Flash in the specials, like have him getting Lunch together with Sunset or something.
Regardless of romances I rather like how Pinkie keeps messing with Sunset in the third movie. I was not a big fan of the movie (frankly I think they waste most of the characters in it) but I did enjoy Pinkie in her few scenes with Sunset. Even better was in the blooper section where she convinces Sunset to touch her arm again to join her in her mind space again and then she gives Sunset a funny look. Then Sunset looks like she does not know how to even take this.
4620327
It's also worth noting, in both directions, that Sci-Twi is a high school student. (Sunset Shimmer is obviously a little more complicated, since we don't understand the age/maturity/responsibility conversion between human world and Equestria.)
For Sci-Twi, a "lasting" relationship would realistically be one that lasted a year or two, and she easily might not understand her own sexuality.
I'm not arguing for either ship, but:
In high school terms, Sci-Twi and Timber are a fine match.
A high school girl having a picture of a guy who turns out to be a summer fling is perfectly normal.
A high school girl who is a lesbian/bisexual dating a guy as she figures that out is also totally normal.
It would also be not uncommon for a more mature person like Sunset to want a younger person of potential romantic interest to have a high school romance (or several) and gain some maturity before considering a relationship.
Basically, the high schooler aspect of Sci-Twi changes the nature of analyzing her in a lot of ways that don't apply as strongly to the pony characters, who are seemingly adults in their community.
4620423
The age (or maturity) difference is important here (*). Princess Twilight's in her early twenties; Sci-Twi can't be older than 17-18. And Princess Twilight has been raised as an important person near the centers of power and society in her world; Sci-Twi is by comparison just a nerdy high school student (albeit a well-connected one).
This is very true. While high school affairs can blossom into long-lasting love and even marriage, often they don't. This is because lifepaths and personalities aren't yet fully set in high school, and to the extent that the relationships are based on high school social status, this is something that can very easily change in college and one's later career.
Most obviously in the case of Sci-Twi, she might simply be overwhelmed with happiness that an attractive guy she likes at least to the point that she can be friends with him actually likes her romantically as well. This is a very new thing for her, and her joy at this could easily swamp any second thoughts regarding subtle points of compatibility. She's hoping that everything will just work out, and she has zero personal experience with the things that can destroy or erode love. (Except for, in the SWSV, the Night Shadows).
On Spruce's side as well, he may be happy about the outcome to the point of ignoring potential problems. Spruce has probably had summer flings before, possibly even summer lovers (in the full sense of the term), but he has probably never been involved with anyone as smart or brave as Sci-Twi, because ... few women are. Intelligence is very obviously attractive to Spruce (or he wouldn't be attracted to Sci-Twi), which is why I mention it. Spruce is himself, by most standards, a very intelligent man.
And yes ... she wouldn't necessarily know yet if she were a lesbian or bisexual, because she has previously neglected her sexual side entirely. That was also probably true of Princess Twilight, before she met Flash. (We never see any characters who could be descibed as her lovers or ex-lovers in Equestria).
Mebbe. Though that seems awfully patient for Sunset Shimmer, in particular. (Not to mention risky, as one of those high school romances might prove longer-lasting than Sunset expected). Sunset seems to me to be more the hot-blooded, passionate type.
===
(*) It's been argued that the Pony analogues of the CHS students are no older than the Humanoids, and that Equestria simply has an earlier age of responsibility. I think that Equestria does have an earlier age of responsibility, but no way are Ponies such as Photo Finish or Trenderhoof teenagers. Consequently they are not all the same age as their EG analogues, and there's no reason not to assume that the Mane Six are at least a few years older than their Humane analogues.
4620310
You've got a point, but then this is an example of deliberately evasive writing.
Remember the end of Rainbow Rocks, in which Flash is about to kiss Twilight, and suddenly the Annoying and Interfering Trixie (literally) appears between them and distracts them? And then the movie ends before we can see any further interaction between Flash and Twilight?
That's deliberately evasive writing, because the time constraint is purely external. The movie ends, but Twilight was in no hurry to get home that time, and she and Flash could have conversed, or kissed, or for that matter had full sexual intercourse, for hours and hours more.
Not showing what happened or referring to it or even hinting at it later is evasive because it fails to resolve a plot thread (Flashlight) which was raised in the first movie and picked up again earlier in the second movie. This isn't a matter of rating -- if Flash and Twilight actually had sex I wouldn't expect to see it onscreen, but the fact that they were now in some sense lovers could have been hinted at; conversely, if Twilight broke it off (because of her duties as an Equestrian Princess or her different species or whatever) this too could have been mentioned.
Likewise, at the end of Legend of Everfree, Flash and Sunset are still going to the same summer camp and still have plenty of time to have that conversation from which Sunset was distracted by supernatural events. Either of them could have initiated it. There is no evidence that they ever spoke again, though it would be strange if they never did.
This evasive writing gives the impression that the characters are complete airheads, supposedly feeling passionate love in one scene and forgetting about it in the next. What's more, it makes the world feel less real, because what's happening is that only those things which occur on screen are treated as real. Flash can't resolve anything with Princess Twilight, or Sunset Shimmer, once the "cameras stop rolling." Because once they stop, he's not really real.
Now, of course, none of these characters are "really real." But to make them seem real, the Writers need to assume that the fictional universe keeps existing even when they're not paying full attention to it.
Instead, they make it seem as if it's nothing more than action figures being moved around on a playset.
Dumb question time: what do you think of a bit of fanon that has Timber as being older than Sci-Twi? By which I mean, old enough that his interest in her makes her what my dad's generation crudely referred to as a '10-20 girl' or more recently as 'jailbait'?
I remember seeing quite a bit of fan art about the unpleasant for Timber consequences of that.
Huh, you make some good points.
4620800
It's not a dumb question. It is, however, difficult to answer, because there are several unknowns.
The first is Sci-Twi's age. I'm guessing no younger than 15 and no older than 18, with 16-17 more likely. She seems to be a junior or senior, but might easily have been skipped one or more grades due to her high intelligence. She's drawn small, but not as small or undeveloped as are the Humanoid CMC (who are probably meant to be around 13-14).
The second is the Age of Consent in the Humanoid equivalent of the United States of America (what I call the North Amareican Federation in the SWSV). If we assume that it is identical to that of our USA, then the Federal minimum is age 12 (no state can set an Age of Consent below that) and most states set their Age of Consent at 16-18 years of age. The most common age is 16.
So if Sci-Twi is at least 16 (probably the case) and is in one of the states where the Age of Consent is at least 16 (a plurality of them) then the issue of statutory rape is irrelevant to her. Timber Spruce may have his (consensual) way with her as much as he likes.
If she is below the state Age of Consent, then the issue of statutory rape becomes potentially relevant. The next question would be whether the state in question cares about the age of her partner.
In most (maybe all) states, if her partner is also below the Age of Consent, it is not statutory rape. What is more, in some states there are either laws, defenses or precedents making it difficult to impossible to prosecute for statutory rape if the older party is close in age (generally 2-3 years or less) to the younger one.
This gets into the third issue, Timber Spruce's age. As depicted he looks as if he might be anywhere between 17-21. It is hence not obvious whether or not he is within 2-3 years of Sci-Twi's age. If he is 17 he is definitely so, if he is 21 probably not so.
A fourth issue relates to the definition of "sex" required for statutory rape. Depending on the details of the code and precedents in that world and country and state, this might be anything from kissing to full penetrative intercourse -- though, normally, mere kissing and hugging and the like are not considered sex for that purpose.
A fifth issue relates to possible other crimes. Depending on both Twilight Sparkle's age and the Age of Majority (historically 21 and then later 18 in our USA), Twilight Sparkle might be a minor or an adult. She is probably a minor, since the depicted society is similar to our own and she is probably under 18. Given this, Timber might be charged with "corrupting a minor" or "contributing to the delinquency of a minor," depending what he did, what local standards exist, and just how badly Twilight Sparkle's parents want him prosecuted.
Finally, statutory rape is a difficult crime to prove unless the parents of the younger party, and the younger party herself (the younger party is usually female) cooperate with the prosecution. This is dicey, as the younger party may well be in love with the older party, and the parents of the younger party may be aware that sending her lover to prison for years will not improve their parental relationship with her (or with their future in-law, if they get married anyway).
Keep in mind that one normally has to prove not merely "dating" or "keeping company" but actual sex -- which couples normally do in private. It's easier, though, to convict on lesser charges. And sometimes a couple will do something stupid like take photos of themselves having sex, photos which then may fall into unfriendly hands.
In short, it's possible but improbable that Timber Spruce has to worry about being charged with statutory rape, and whether this threat is real depends in part on factors unrevealed to us about his age, her age and the local laws on the matter.
4620994
In short, it's possible but improbable that Timber Spruce has to worry about being charged with statutory rape, and whether this threat is real depends in part on factors unrevealed to us about his age, her age and the local laws on the matter.
Or if someone with some push decided to make an issue out of it. You don't want to get on the bad side of someone who is both petty and has local political connections.
I think most people are glad that Flash/Twilight drama is over. Twilight deserve way better than Flash. Shadow Lock looks fine but since he's just an IDW original character, he might never show up again.
4620633
Apart from the one who didn't (Flash Sentry) who got nothing but grief for it.
4623510
First off, Shadow Lock is a joke. He's like a parody of a serious concept, only the writers seem to think their parody is the genuine deal.
Secondly, what does Shadow Lock have to do with the topic at hand?
4626536
The topic is a bout Twilight love interests and Shadow Lock so far is the best fit.
4626533
That's an extremely good point. Flash is being made fun of essentially because he is capable of deep caring -- which is very much a bad moral for the tale.
Princess Twilight has the vanilla canon flaw of letting her duties and interests distract her from other people who care about her, sometimes ignoring them for years at a time. Remember how she treated Moondancer?
4884047
I do. I also remember many blind reactors writing Flash off as a desperate loser creep who jumps from girl to girl, instead of a guy who keeps struggling all the time and gets nothing for it. Flash Sentry's character arc essentially is learning not to expect anything, ever. At least Rarity didn't suddenly forget Spike exists.
4884127
Indeed, and if you look at what Flash actually does, he:
1) Falls for Sunset Shimmer, but dumps her after a while when he realizes that she's a cruel bully (and, really, she's WORSE than that), then
2) Falls for Princess Twilight, but this doesn't get very far because she's an Alicorn Princess with too many responsibilities back home to spend much time in the Humanoidverse. He is briefly
3) Confused by the fact that Sci-Twi looks a lot like Princess Twilight, yet doesn't know him and hence is uninterested in him. Then he
4) Starts making an effort to at least repair his friendship with Sunset Shimmer, but she is often too busy to have a meaningful conversation with him.
This is not "fickle." He was only ever interested in two girls, at different times. One of them turned into a (moral and briefly literal) monster and the other of whom mostly lives in a far-off place and has almost no time for him. (Sci-Twi just confuses the issue as someone who looks creepily like Princess Twilight, from Flash's POV).
It is not at all objectionable that Flash is regaining an interest in Sunset Shimmer (at least on the level of being her friend). They were, after all, once in some way sexually and definitely personally intimate. They meant a lot to each other. They were close to lovers, and they were most certainly friends.
Is not his coming to accept her again, now that she has matured and reformed, proof that he is capable of seeing that she has changed for the better? Is that not a good thing, and a sign that Flash is a fundamentally decent person?
Imagine if he were instead cold and uncaring toward Sunset Shimmer, his former almost-lover and close friend. What would this imply about his character?
Yes, he didn't instantly resume his interest in Sunset Shimmer after Princess Twilight defeated her in the first movie. But bear in mind that he'd suffered some shocks to his opinion of her. First it turned out that his almost-lover Sunset was a cruel bully, then that she was also an extradimensional alien criminal fugitive. And remember, he was in the throes of his newfound love for Princess Twilight at that point.
Flash Sentry doesn't always behave perfectly, but he treats other people extremely well (except when he's being mind-controlled by Sirens), and he is, after all, only a teenage boy. He shows serious positive emotions and constancy of affect.
He deserves a better opinion of him than he gets.