Pinkie and Dashie in the Degradingverse · 1:43pm Dec 26th, 2014
You may note that in my main worldline stories, I have immense respect for all of Celestia's Champions, and that includes Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie. Indeed, one of my main gripes with the Winningverse is that both are treated as if they are mentally, emotionally and morally retarded. Notably, Pinkie has no depth beyond "Whee! I like parties!" and "Wow! I [inexicably] love Rainbow Dash!" Pinkie is the only member of the Mane Six who is treated as promiscuous (more on that in a moment), and one of only two of them to succumb to Cloud Kicker (and Fluttershy's subsequent behavior strongly indicates that she can subconsciously tell that something is very wrong with Cloud Kicker -- in the Degradingverse, it's because her love tastes off to her Royal-Changeling empathy. Rainbow Dash is treated as stupid because she's a virgin and Oblivious To Love.
Indeed, one of the most emotionally-horrifying (if you like Dashie and Pinkie) moments of the whole Winningverse takes place in The Life and Times of a Winning Pony,
In context -- Rainbow Dash is getting worried because Pinkie wants sex and Dashie has no idea how to make love (because of the physical and emotional damage Cloud did her in Flight School, she's at most emotionally demisexual (like my Trixie) and physically has very little sensation in her own genitalia because of massive injuries inflicted by Cloud Kicker (the ones Goldie is diagnosing in Chapter 1 of my story). And Rainbow Dash does the one thing one should never do in a Winningverse story -- she asks Cloud Kicker for advice (she's the only one of the Winningverse Mane Six so naive as to trust Cloud Kicker -- even Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie don't do that).
Whereupon the following conversation occurs:
(Cloud Kicker): "Pay attention to how Pinkie's reacting to you. What makes her happy, and what doesn't. For example, she really likes being touched around the base of her tail."
“Okay, thanks I—” The last bit of what I said slowly worked its way through Rainbow’s brain, and she faced me with an unreadable expression. “How do you know that?
She didn’t know? I kinda figured she would’ve put two and two together, but then Rainbow Dash does seem to have a bit of a mental blank spot when it comes to general understanding of romance, relationships, and banging. I sighed and laid it out for her. “You remember that one Nightmare Night, the first one after Derpy moved to Ponyville? Do you remember how Pinkie and I went off together about halfway through, and you didn't see me again until the next day?”
Careful, Winning-Through-Degradation. You're peeking out a bit too far from under Cloud Kicker.
From the bemused look on her face, Dash still didn’t get it. “Yeah, what abou—” Her eyes went wide and her jaw dropped as the facts finally clicked. “What? You banged Pinkie!?”
WINNING: That's right. I ate your True Love and crapped her out as nutritionally-unsatisfying. Got a problem with that?
I winced a bit at her volume—Blossom definitely overheard that part. I’m generally not in the habit of advertising or bragging about my bang partners. Not that I’m ashamed of them or try to hide them, but a bit of discretion is usually a good thing. No time to worry about privacy issues right now though, I needed to run a bit of damage control with Rainbow. “It was seven years ago, Dash. You two weren't even friends yet, let alone a couple.”
WINNING: Hence, Pinkie was only useful to me as a food source. It's not as if she yet figured greatly in my larger strategic plans, save as it was important to neutralize the threat she posed to them.
Rainbow’s jaw was still just about resting on the sofa. “Yeah but...” Rainbow’s nose crinkled up and she gave a slight shudder. “Eww.”
Well, as far as reactions to finding out I’d banged her special somepony go, I could do a lot worse than ‘Eww’. At least she wasn’t mad at me. I tried to smile at her and break the tension with some bad humor. “Look on the bright side. You know I've got good advice now.”
WINNING: I mock your pain and enjoy the way it weakens your psychic defenses!
The joke didn’t seem to work, since instead of laughing Rainbow went darkly silent. After long enough to start making me just a little nervous, Rainbow asked with a hint of a sullen pout. “Who else has Pinkie, um, been with?”
RAINBOW: How bad is the news?
Oh great, there’s a big old relationship landmine. I don’t really pry too much into the sex lives of other ponies, but you can’t help hearing things. Small towns love their gossip. “I don't really know for sure about Pinkie, but she wasn't a virgin when we did it. And there have probably been other ponies since me.” Simply put, banging is fun, and Pinkie Pie is well known for being a fan of all things fun.
WINNING: She's the other town bicycle. You know, the one with pretty streamers and training wheels? When Ponies get used to riding on her, they graduate to me. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Pinkie as somepony special?
“Swell,” Rainbow grumbled and flopped back against my couch hard enough that I felt the need to pull my wing out of her path. “That just means that she's been with a bunch of other ponies and knows what to expect.”
That last part is Rainbow's moment of sheer magnificence in the scene. She's learned something horrifying about Pinkie, something which would have led many Ponies -- especially ones as idealistic about love as Dashie -- to give up entirely on her love.
That may, in fact, have been Winning's intention. Winning knows that it can't be blatant about its power -- if it starts acting like a character from Erotic Mind Control porn, it's going to be noticed, and the Sunshine in the form of a giant super-powered Alicorn is going to ruin its day. It's not strong enough (yet) to take on Celestia in a one-on-one mind duel. And it knows this.
So it has to act through Cloud Kicker, and do nothing inexplicable by being a "normal" nymphomaniac Pegasus. What's more, there's a rock-paper-scissors matchup between Lust (Winning's Shadow Vice Element) and the other Elements. It's strongest against Kindness, and weakest against Loyalty. (It gets as far as it does against Derpy, a backup Loyalty, because Derpy genuinely loves Cloud Kicker).
Cloud Kicker can beat Rainbow Dash in direct physical combat (at least at this point in their careers), and thus a possible strategy would be to kill Dashie, getting her out of the picture. The problem is that this would attract attention. Murder is rare in Equestria, and Rainbow Dash both prominent, and famous for her honor and decency. Winning is afraid of disposing of Dashie so directly, at least before it can get the Two Royal Alicorn Sisters under its sway, and so far Winning has only slightly Tainted Luna (and very carefully, and still Celestia has noticed that there's something wrong with her Sister).
Besides, killing Rainbow Dash would deprive Winning of the opportunity to drain her powerful Element. Demoralizing Dashie would work better. A corrupted Loyalty -- and one more powerful than Derpy (whom Cloud and hence Winning both underestimate) -- would make a useful piece in the chess game Winning is playing against Celestia.
Note that what Cloud Kicker is by implication saying here. "Your fillyfriend? Yeah, I already banged her. Just like I did to Fluttershy. Your ideals are childish, your love is worthless -- all you can ever aspire to are my cast-offs. Submit to me."
And Rainbow's ultimate reaction?
"Damn, if Pinkie Pie is more experienced than I thought, that means I have to try even harder to make her feel good."
That is pure love speaking there. Pure Loyalty. And it flies right over Winning's nasty little tactic.
That exchange, in fact, is what made me realize that Winning made a serious mistake in its chess game.
Cloud Kicker helped Rainbow and Pinkie to get togther. Why? The perceptions of the alternate Pinkies, including the one from the main Shadow Wars worldlines, is that it was an act of kindness by Cloud. This is also what Cloud herself claims in The Incredibly Dense Mind of Rainbow Dash.
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Winning originally Tainted Pinkie because it feared Pinkie's power -- Pinkie has perhaps the most dangerous abilities out of any of the Mane Six, because her abilities encompass and transcend the ultimate weapon of the Cosmic Concepts -- the Nullification. Pinkie Pie has the power of controlled causality alteration -- Wishing -- the same sort of power as her Sire, the Paradise Entity, which is a Paracosmic being. Winning has reduced Pinkie's effective intellect and increased her hedonism to the point where (it hopes) Pinkie can't notice it or interfere with its plans.
Rainbow's power is not as subtle, but is very dangerous to Winning. Rainbow has Loyalty, and the most fundamental manifestation of this is that Rainbow Dash cannot be seduced or controlled by any external force, especially where such control would violate her ideals. Winning's primary power is seduction, followed by mind control. Winning can't use this power directly against Rainbow Dash. It's a straight-up No Sell situation.
Winning knows this because Winning has never been able to control Derpy, only manipulate her, and only through Cloud Kicker's normal social skills.
I haven't decided yet if Winning yet grasps the greater powers of Loyalty. Rainbow Dash can directly sense when one to whom she is Loyal is in danger, and all her abilities are amplified when fighting for that to whom she is Loyal. Ultimately, she has what amounts to a very limited Wish for victory in such a situation. That, in fact, is why Rainbow Dash nearly won her fillyhood fight with Cloud Kicker, despite the facts that Rainbow Dash was five years younger (8 to CloudKicker's 13) and did achieve her end (she made Cloud stop raping Fluttershy, at least for many years to come).
She didn't, of course, win Fluttershy's love for herself. But then Loyalty is by definition to another, and ensuring that other's success -- not one's own.
The great irony here, of course, is that Cloud Kicker herself was a potential Loyalty. That's precisely why Winning values her so highly as a host. In consuming Cloud's Element, Winning was able to grow strong even before Tainting anyone else. Winning-Through-Degradation's first and most complete victim, of course, was Cloud Kicker.
Winning's great mistake is that it went along with Cloud's plan to bring Pinkie and Rainbow together. It assumed that Pinkie had been reduced to a harmless airhead, and that Rainbow had always been a clueless fool. But what it did was to strengthen Friendship and spark a powerful Love, which are fundamental psychic forces -- and ones very strong against Lust. Pinkie, freed of her compulsive promiscuity (which was helping keep her mind simple, because whenever she throught too hard about her situation she was consumed by self-loathing) and sheltered by Rainbow's Loyalty from Winning's direct power, has begun to heal from the psychic damage Winning did her in 1495, seven years ago. And Pinkie's Love for Rainbow Dash, reinforced by her power to Wish, is beginning to heal Rainbow of the emotional and physical damage Winning did to her in 1490, twelve years ago.
The scene I quoted was probably Winning starting to realize the danger and trying to shatter Rainbow's Love for Pinkie, by the normal social tactic of telling Rainbow something bad about Pinkie so that Dashie would despise her.
It didn't work. Rainbow's Loyalty was too strong. Rainbow re-interpreted it as her own failing.
Two of Winning's victims have come together, and are growing stronger in their mutual Love.
They are starting to wake up from their spell, and Winning does not know what to do.
I haven't read the stories this particular essay refers to, and therefor I am likely missing a lot of depth and nuance in the original, but judging simply by what's said here the it all seems rather shallow (I know, like I'm one to talk).
Though I must add that the way it's described, Winning-Through-Degradation's attitudes about sex seem rather like those of 'your' Changelings, in that they're both very (emotionally) cool and casual about it.
Wow. I really find myself torn here. On one hand, I want to say that there's nothing inherently corrupt about Pinkie "banging" because it's fun and feels good. It's really hard for me to conceive of Pinkie as corrupt at all. And it certainly doesn't make her unworthy or bad. That's my sort-of-political response. In fact, having a lot of sexual partners can happen to a character for a lot of different reasons that wouldn't make them incapable of a monogamous relationship (especially if they live in a culture of "banging.")
On the other hand, my personal response would be almost identical to Dash's here. What really bothers me about Cloud Kicker's behavior is offering the sexual details of how to treat Pinkie and belittling Rainbow Dash--partially because there's also nothing inherently stupid or unworthy about being sexually inexperienced, and because you do not offer sex tips to the current or future lover of someone you've been with, along with the suggestion that you know this personally. That's just locker-room levels of eeww right there.
Bearing in mind that I haven't read the whole series and that I'm going off what I'm seeing here:
Cloud Kicker virtually launches this conversation off with the deets that she's slept with Pinkie AND exactly when and where. " Here's the full extent of what CK needs to say:
It's fully possible to make suggestions about what Pinkie might like without the extra info that she knows personally that she likes it, and mentioning specifically when, and that Dash was present and that she was stupid not to notice. "Oh, hey, remember that party?" That's ikky. I don't see how it could fail to plant the seed of "what else didn't I notice? What am I not noticing now?"
BULLSHIT. You just did. That, or you just revealed that you are monumentally stupid.
Fair enough. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and should defuse a lot of the tension. What someone did a very long time ago just isn't something to worry about now. Anything else, especially "how many others has Pinkie been with?" should be answered with, "You really need to be having this conversation with Pinkie," possibly along with the reminder that Pinkie is honest and wouldn't lie about it. Whatever goes on between Pinkie and Dash during that conversation and afterwards is, quite simply, none of CK's business.
“Look on the bright side. You know I've got good advice now,” isn't a joke. I'm trying to imagine in what social circumstances that's a joke, and failing.
In other words, you don't know this first hand, CK. SHUT UP. It is none of your business.
Once again, CK, you've admitted you don't know, so SHUT UP.
TMI, speculation, none of your business, SHUT UP.
Why not say THAT instead? If you're talking to someone without much sexual experience, that's a good way to calm things down. And THEN to repeat, "You really need to be having this conversation with Pinkie."
The problem, (as I see it), is that Cloud Kicker's being a hypocrite. She claims that banging is no big deal, but she's acting like it is. She's also dumping all of this on an inexperienced character with no frame of reference and who would have no idea what to do with all of this information. She's acting as though her lack of knowledge is somehow Dash's fault. And if Dash actually has a physical injury which causes some kind of sexual dysfunction, it's very cruel, and instead she should suggest that Dash see a doctor.
Of course, I DON'T know the source material, so if the idea is that CK is clueless and braggy and it's played for laughs, and if there isn't a real injury involved, it looks entirely different, though perhaps not my cup of tea.
Making fun of lack of sexual experience is the flip side of slut-shaming and equally uncool.
The thing is: Pinkie didn't arrive at this state naturally and of her own free will. She was reduced to this by WInning for its own purposes: directly, to feed on her Element; and indirectly, to neutralize a threat to Winning's own growth and survival. She did not conclude that she should bring sexual Joy to others out of Love; instead she was forced into promiscuity through being made to think of herself as not special enough to be worthy of self-restraint. In short: by my dichtomy of Chaste vs. Promiscuous Pinkie Pies, this isn't one of the ones who CHOSE to be Promiscuous. This Pinkie Pie has been, essentially. mind-raped into being that way.
She's been Degraded, which is the normal condition of those Winning touches.
And because Pinkie has been made to forget just why her behavior changed, all she knows is that at fourteen she suddenly threw away all the sexual morals she learned from her family and became totally promiscuous. She sees this as her "Awakening" or growing up, and her earlier attitudes as silly. Where sexuality is concerned, morals just get in the way of fun.
But she's quite aware of the fact that her family thinks differently. And from what she thinks of as "their" point of view, she is ashamed of what she's become. Which is part of the reason she's been avoiding them.
(more following)
Oh, no--I was just interpreting what you provided from the Life and Times of a Winning Pony.Since I haven't read it, I don't know if CK is supposed to be an unreliable narrator or not.
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I'd like to think the same would be true in my case. But then it occurs to me that Rainbow Dash really was this innocent and nonetheless she chose to interpret the situation in the way that let her blame herself for her inexperience, rather think worse of Pinkie. That was seriously awesome love and loyalty there, and one of the things in Chengar's original story that makes me wonder that side he's really on.
And I don't know the extent to which I could live up to the Virtue which Dashie is here displaying.
It's even more awesome when one realizes that this is the second time Cloud Kicker has put Rainbow Dash in this exact same situation, and this time, Dashie responded with restraint against both Cloud and Rainbow's own Beloved. Yes, in the Degradingverse she's being blocked from drawing the obvious conclusion about Cloud Kicker, but Dashie's Loyalty to Pinkie is still prettty amazing.
Dashie wins this encounter. Cloud fails to strain Dashie's love for Pinkie. And Dashie wins just by means of her own Virtue of Loyalty.
It is very difficult to read this scene as anything other than Cloud Kicker mocking Rainbow Dash. "The girl you love? Yeah, I did her. Wasn't the first, won't be the last -- she's pretty easy. If you have any love letters from her, I could use some toilet paper."
Cloud Kicker is essentially attempting to make sure that Rainbow Dash will remember that Cloud was there first when Dashie is MAKING LOVE to Pinkie. That is a vile thing to do, and the implied motive would be to wreck their love. And I find the implied claim by Chengar that Cloud was just trying to be helpful very hard to believe.
Yes. That would have been good advice.
Yep. Cloud could have simply have worded her advice vaguely, as in "mares tend to like x" rather than as "Pinkie likes x."
I don't know how old Cloud, Pinkie and Rainbow Dash were supposed to be at the time of that party in YOH 1495. By my (most recently revised) chronology, Cloud would have been eighteen, Pinkie fourteen, and Rainbow Dash thirteen then.
Which is unfair of Cloud. Pinkie keeps secrets, but she'll flat-out tell you "It's a secret" in such a case. She's not at all dishonest. Manipulative, sometimes, but not dishonest.
But, obviously, what Cloud wants to make Dashie think here is "She doesn't really love you. She's just pretending."
In context: Cloud Kicker is secretly a serious historian who wrote a major work on the Lunar Rebellion, in addition to being a skilled flier, an awesome fighter, and a bedroom athlete. So, no, I don't think she's stupid at all.
Well ... it might be relevant, depending on the circumstances. In this case, it's actually not relevant for the reasons Rainbow Dash might worry, because Pinkie was never in love with Cloud Kicker. (In the Degradingverse, emotionally-shattered, sexually-abused, psychically-drained and put under long term mental compulsion by Cloud Kicker, but never in love with her. In the Winningverse, the nastier stuff never happened.
But yes, this is one of the reasonable things Cloud Kicker says in the conversation.
Indeed. Notice that at no point during this conversation does Cloud Kicker say anything good about Pinkie Pie, even though I could think of a lot of good things to say about even the Winningverse (let alone Degradingverse or Shadow Wars mainline) Pinkie Pie.
This conversation isn't about helping Rainbow Dash, it's about making her feel like dirt, and perceiving her True Love as dirt. Because Rainbow Dash is so Loyal, Cloud Kicker fails to achieve the last-named goal.
What Cloud is saying here is "The fact that she wants to make love to you, Dashie? Nothing special. Just means she minimally likes you." That's the only reason for her to put it that way.
Yep.
YES. That is the very big difference between Winningverse Cloud Kicker and any of the more plausible Promiscuous Pinkie Pies. A Promiscuous Pinkie would make love to many because she loves many. Cloud Kicker bangs many because she sees this as scoring points off many.
You can clearly see it in her willingness to humiliate others by revealing details of their sexual encounters to third parties, sometimes to very large groups. Cloud Kicker hates most Ponies, and she sees sexuality as a way of hurting them. She conceals this well enough to be tolerated; this would work even in my sexually-conservative Equestria (because most of the Ponies are very inclined to think the best of others). But sometimes, the mask slips.
I named what I perceive peering out as "Winning-Through-Degradation," and postulated that it was a Thing From Beyond, mostly because it tied well into my Shadow Wars overarching story, and because I'm a longtime fan of Lovecraft and of weird fiction in general. But whatever is is, the Thing Beneath The Mask is not nice, at all.
"How could you have waited until you found somepony you loved to contemplate making love to them? Boy, you're a real fool to act like that."
It's worse than that. The injury was inflicted twelve years ago, by CLOUD KICKER, in the course of the fight they had over Fluttershy at Flight Camp. When -- by my chronology -- Cloud was 13, Fluttershy 10 and Rainbow Dash 8.
In Chengar's telling, the fight was Rainbow Dash's fault. It's possible. Obviously, I have a slightly different opinion of matters in the Degradingverse.
To be fair to my Changelings, they are all (save for the very assimilated into Equestrian society) living in a culture in which non-reproductive sex (which includes all sex not involving at least one Royal) is essentially just a form of play, generally between friends. Cloud Kicker is living in Equestria as her native culture.
Also, Changelings actually feel positive affect towards other Changelings with whom they sexually play. The friendships I depicted between Compound, Carry and Cowl, and which Compound once had with Solitary and Trapcastle, were intense by Changeling standards (but, then, Compound is a very intense ling) but not fundamentally-atypical.
Cloud Kicker's not like that. Her approach more similar to a Changeling hunting. It's predatory.
Which is from where I got the notion that Cloud was draining something.
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Oh, and your Pinkie is nothing like the Winningverse Cloud Kicker. Your Pinkie is a cheerful, friendly and kind Good Time Girl. She's loveable, and she genuinely loves others.
Cloud ... isn't, and doesn't. Even when she thinks she is.
Is this why she's the only one that Discord corrupted by pitting her Element against itself, rather than causing her to turn against it? "Betray your friends or betray your home city" isn't an invitation to abandon Loyalty entirely (although letting Discord into your head at all lets him screw with your perceptions), it's a challenge to figure out what you're more loyal to. Rainbow Dash has known her friends for a year, aside from Fluttershy, but she probably has parents in Cloudsdale. And certainly the majority of her pegasus friends would live there, including all her childhood friends. So she didn't turn against Loyalty; she weighed the safety of her friends against the safety of her entire hometown and decided her friends could take care of themselves. Which is what opened the door to let Discord in (believing Discord and taking action on that belief is I think what opens the door, when he's trying to discord someone), but he could not have persuaded her to abandon her friends for personal gain, like Nightmare Moon tried to. (The fact that Nightmare Moon tried this and it didn't work is probably why Discord didn't do it that way; he knows entirely too much about the six of them and their emotional weaknesses for me to believe he hadn't thoroughly done his research, and quite possibly have had the ability to observe the six of them even while he was in stone.)
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Yes, exactly. Rainbow Dash can't be directly controlled or seduced away from what she deems the course of honor, but she can be tricked by being put in a situation where she thinks honor requires doing what the trickster wishes her to, even if it's a very bad idea. And she can be torn between two Loyalties.
In the Degradingverse (and possibly also the Winningverse -- it's hard to tell whether Chengar really means one to like Cloud Kicker or whether she's meant as an Unsympathetic Protagonist) Cloud Kicker basically convinces Rainbow Dash that her fight with her in Flight Camp was all Dashie's fault, so Dashie actually feels guilty for it. This neutralizes Rainbow Dash's ability to perceive and properly criticize Cloud Kicker's appallingly bad behavior. (In fact, it almost completely neutralizes Rainbw Dash's ability to feel romantic or sexual love, until Pinkie Pie starts healing her).
The key to defeating Rainbow Dash is to turn her against herself. That is the weak spot in an otherwise admirably-simple philosophy of winning on the principle "Fly fast and hit things." If she'd known Twilight Sparkle, Applejack, or Rarity at the time, they would have set her straight about what really happened. But Dashie didn't -- instead, she knew Derpy (who loved Cloud Kicker), Fluttershy (who blamed and hated herself for the fight) and Gilda (whose personal philosophy was "fly fast and claw things," which was close enough to Rainbow's own).
Interestingly -- and supporting my suspicion that Cloud Kicker is meant not merely as an Unsympathetic Protagonist but possibly a downright Affably Evil Villain Protagonist -- Rarity distrusts Cloud Kicker, Twilight Sparkle despises her until essentially commanded by a (perhaps already Tainted) Luna into studying her, and Applejack straight-out refuses to have anything to do with her (and flat-out threatens her should she approach Big Mac). It is possible that this is meant to show Rarity as a hypocrite, Twilight Sparkle as a clueless nerd, and Applejack as a dour prude -- but I'm not so sure about that.
By the way -- one of the things I like about your concept of Discord is that you show him both as childish and brilliant -- a Dangerously Genre Savvy Magnificent Bastard, whether he's being the hero, the villain or just Not the Hero of the particular piece. My own concept of him owes a lot to yours.