Another "Moments" rewrite · 6:17am Feb 17th, 2014
I rewrote chapters 2 & 3, plus minor matching changes elsewhere. I went in intending to merge chapters 2 & 3, but I soon realized the ideas were too confused: Twilight eventually realized there was a problem with how she was using the theorem, but she believed that by then she couldn't change any of her actions and so she didn't try, but her real motivation was that she believed she'd been doing the wrong thing by lying to ponies--
--wait, which came first? Why didn't she stop lying before she saw the problem with the theorem? It didn't hold together, and was long, boring, and confusing. I rewrote it to hopefully make a little more sense and hopefully be a little less boring, or at least shorter. But it was too complicated to stuff into a single cycle & a single chapter, so I kept it as 2 chapters.
Chapters 2 & 3 present an extreme "show vs. tell" problem: The content is very abstract, and the character is repeating exactly what she did in chapter 1. Anything shown would be repetitive and boring. I tried to address this by focusing Twilight's attention a little differently each time, and using metaphoric language within her internal, telling monologue.
I ran into another interesting problem in chapter 3. I wrote this:
I wanted to believe I’d lost the freedom to choose. Just like I’d wanted to believe the theorem could tell me what to do. I wanted science to absolve me of wrongdoing.
I realized some people would interpret it as "Twilight foolishly tried to answer ethical problems using science" rather than "Twilight abused science to get the answer she wanted." So I rewrote it as,
I wanted to believe I’d lost the freedom to choose. Just like I’d wanted to believe the theorem could tell me what to do. Better to keep on doing what I’d been doing, until the repetition blurred the pain of all my mistakes and all the wrong I’d done into a mindless dull ache. I tried to twist science into absolving me of everything.
But science doesn’t twist....
A little wordier, but it's better to head likely thematic misinterpretation off early.
Then I kept staring at the end of chapter 3 and not liking it. Twilight's just gone through 3 chapters of hell, made a heroic effort, and conquered her fear, and she's rewarded with--FlutterMac? And she throws a hissy fit and makes a wry comment? It was a low where the reader deserved a high, and right at the point where viewers started zoning out. (BTW, many more people read chapter 5 than read chapter 4, and many more read chapter 6 than read chapter 5. WTF?)
What should come there instead is a plot complication, a semi-rewarding "yes, but..." I saw a chance to change it to give Twilight new resolve, a new motivation that ties in with what she does in chapter 6 and eliminates a bit of awkward allegorical cheating on Fluttershy in that chapter.
So I changed it. I may have gone overboard.
I'll probably leave this version up for a month, then rewrite it one final time for EQD, which will probably require destroying the best new parts of this version. Unless I can do what I want to with the CYOA version within EQD's rules, in which case I'll keep this as is and submit the CYOA version to EQD.
I wish I had explicit statements from EQD and from fimfiction on what "explicit" means. Does it count as explicit if no pony naughty bits are mentioned? Would a film where you heard someone having an orgasm off-screen be rated PG, R, or NC-17?
I think you might be able to get away with plausible deniability until you mention her wanting his seed inside of her. That's when the scene becomes explicit to me.
Mac's behavior in this scene seems inconsistent with his reluctance to return Twilight's advances in previous chapters. The FlutterMac revelation in the previous version explained that behavior quite nicely. In this version, I'm questioning why the revelation that he's about to die changes his actions so much.
I've negotiated a similar situation. I had the EQD link lead to a depublished, censored version, while the published version that can be found on my profile is the M-rated version.
You haven't gone overboard enough. You think "It was a low where the reader deserved a high"? What you're actually saying is that you want readers to keep reading through there because they enjoy seeing Twilight and Big Mac get together. You can't just stick it in there at the end of the chapter, you need to put inat leastanother full chapter where Twilight skips past walking through town and asking for hugs and kisses.Yes, you went overboard.
I don't know what you should put there, but unless you're actually going to go somewhere with it you shouldn't have that scene. As it is, Twilight gets exactly what she's wanted and then immediately at the start of the next chapter she's angry enough to tell everyone they're going to die. At the very least you're skipping a step in describing Twilight's emotional response.
Yes, I was just wondering whether that would be a problem. So, thanks. Bother.
Why do you think she's angry in the next chapter?
1844509
Eh, whoops. I re-read the chapter instead of just remembering it's the one where she tells everyone they're going to die, and I'm wrong. That said, I still think that having sex with Big Mac would be a little more important to her at the moment than acting on her realization that she can change stuff. ...at least that what I think+remember her motivation being pre-sex rewrite.
Also, you forgot to reply to me. No big deal though.
That's certainly a good start.
I think the answer is "it depends on how it's handled in context". We posted a story about Snails hiding a boner in class, for instance, but not once is it ever directly mentioned, not even via euphemisms, even though it is very obvious what's going on.
The only thing you can really do is send it in
and wait two monthsand see what the response is. The worst that happens is a rejection."But science doesn’t twist..."
Yes, Twilight, but that is why you have that pointy thing on the top of your head.
To quote my favorite magic-using non-unicorn: "Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down." -- Vaarsuvius
Also, Rule 31. Only cheaters prosper.
If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough, Twilight.
1846592 What am I trying to do with it? Hmm. Number one is to begin with a hopeless situation, and show a character arc in which Twilight begins feeling herself a failure and not a true princess, and gradually thinks and acts her way out of it to become a hero and a true princess, with the help of her friends, not by rejecting logic but by adding in the parts of the equation that she was overlooking.
Well, yeah, it's a tad wordier, but clarity is what's important, and you're trying to convey complicated ideas. That takes time. 'Sides, I like wordy.
Anyway, I'll make sure to give the whole thing another read and tell ya what I think.
1847650 Thanks, but wait on that. I'm going to add another chapter, where one has been needed, before chapter 6.
1848677
Alrighty; I await your command.
1847465
That's a means, not an end (that you would want, at least). You didn't write this to let people know that Twilight rejected a morality theory or to inform people that Twilight became a True Princess and saved Life. That's just silly. If you did, I recommend getting some more sleep.
Did you want people know that support for expected utility (rather than some other function of utility) is circular? Did you want people to know that you came up with that argument? Did you want people to see that theory-bound means morally-unbound? That friendship is magic? That logic can be good? That creativity can be good? That the search for an optimal solution by Twilight alone can only go so far? By any single person alone can only go so far? Did you think up a concept of Good that you wanted to share? Did you want people to feel proud of someone they got to watch grow up?
What's weird about the new version is that Twilight decides to fix things right as her time looping starts to pay off for her. The previous version made more sense to me. She realized that she would never get what she wanted out of Big Mac at the same time that she realized she was free, so she decides to do whatever she can to find a way to end the looping.
In the previous version, Twilight grew out of her learned helplessness by logic and introspection. In this one, she grew out of it by getting laid.
Meh.
No; Twilight went through all the same logic and introspection, and escaped the cycle herself before getting a reaction from Mac. That was the consequence, not the cause.
1855315
I know it's supposed to come off like that, but it doesn't feel like Twilight feels empowered by her realization.
1855315
I noticed you got rid of that line, and I do think it's better for that. I'm still opposed to introducing a sexual scene involving Twilight in the fic because
it's an awkward feeling watching someone so close to a daughter figure go through it, and that feeling lingers for the rest of the story. I might only have that problem because I read the previous version.
I feel like the scene conflicts with another of your possible goals,
but that's probably just a personal issue, and I the only reader that would think that.
EDIT: I wouldn't recommend taking this post seriously without another opinion. I have biases against clop.
1869129 In the original story, Twi has a crush on Mac. This is too deeply embedded in the story to remove, but it leaves me in a tough spot at the end of chapter 3: He can
a) reciprocate, or
b) not reciprocate.
If he rejects her (as in the original), the emotion built up in the beginning has nowhere to go; it evaporates. If he encourages her, I'd expect her to spend several chapters trying to build that up. The reason for having them go all the way quickly is (a) end of the world is probably the only thing that could push Twi & Mac thru their mutual shyness, and (b) otherwise I'd have to write several chapters of "Forty First Dates" that wouldn't take the story towards its ending. Saying "yes" and going all the way, suddenly, is both taking advantage of a unique opportunity provided by the story at that point, and avoids all the bad options I just listed.
More importantly, one key to the story is Twi replacing the idea "I am princess of ponies" with "I am a princess of Equestria", and being content with saving e.g. apple seeds. To hit hard with that, I want her changed view on the value of all life to transform her initial goal, reached at the end of chapter 3, into her actions in chapter 6.
The way to do that best is to have her initial goal be to make the world safe so she can have kids with Big Mac, and transform that into her and Big Mac saving the apple seeds. Hence the need to talk about "his seed" in both senses.
So I really want to change the story so that at the end of chapter 3 she's determined to have kids with Big Mac. Then I replace chapter 4 with chapter 4.1b, showing her new desire to be a mother; chapter 4.2b, second first date with Big Mac and, ideally, something from him that pushes her towards her new viewpoint. Then chapter 5.1b, final conversion to non-pony-centrism, and chapter 5.2b, a pointless but emotionally-needed attempt to explain this to Big Mac. Follow with the original chapter 6; lose the original chapter 4, which I like but can't fit into that new plot.
1870771
Ah, that makes more sense, though it'll seem like a mess until 4b and 5.1b come out. Utilitarian to hedonist to hopeless to selfless does sound like a much more natural progression than the MaybeHedonist-Utilitarian-Hopeless-Selfless of the original. (Really, anything to hopeless to selfless would make sense, I think. The current version throws in hopeful before selfless, which is... unnatural.)
It sucks to see the old version go since it's one of the few fics I consider perfect, but I can see the changes going well since they mostly just prolong the buildup and result in a sharper realization. I don't see a way to keep the "proud of Twilight" feeling in there with the changes though, since she's not "my" Twilight in any sense of the word anymore (except maybe to readers with adult kids). I could still admire her, but that's a much weaker feeling than pride, and it's much less personal than pride. I think it would make for a weaker ending since a lot of that emotion comes from making the story personal, but you would get a much stronger middle in exchange since Twilight could be at a much higher high right before her realization.
1870771
I noticed you undid the changes. (I'm sorry, and THANK YOU!)
For the alt story you described in 1870771, I think the best course would be to explicitly state that it's an alt story (eg. call the chapters "Alt - Worst pony", "Alt - New Chapter Name 1", etc.) and place the new chapters after the original ending. When people see that Twilight and Big Mac get together and start dating, they'll probably get lulled into thinking it's just a playful alternate, so long as your alt chapter names diverge from your original chapter names at some point and don't merge again. You can even expand the dating arc, and the story would just be better for it. I suspect that most readers wouldn't expect Twilight's realization that she should be dealing with her fate, which would make it hit even harder. Once the readers get through that, they're going to expect the original ending (or something very similar) so it doesn't matter if it's weaker than the original when standing on its own. They were already hit with that, and the original emotion can resurface (maybe with a little more dread since they know what's coming, and that it's unavoidable).
Everyone that already read the original and doesn't want to reread the same story can enjoy that too.
If you do this, I recommend putting a chapter between the original ending and the first alt chapter. Have it explain that all following chapters are alt, so people don't just click through and get confused.