Sexism in the Brony Community: A Humble Rebuttal · 10:31pm Jan 19th, 2014
Yesterday, an essay known as Sexism in the My Little Pony Fandom reached the front page of DeviantART, netting over 19,000 views and 944 comments. I've been meaning to write on the topic of femenism and sexism someday, but this is a rare opportunity to not only cover the bases, but also to write a rebuttal to one of the most misinformed things I've ever seen on DeviantART.
So this is my no-sugar coating, no bullshit, Fox only, final destination look at this topic and an overall rebuttal. I hope you enjoy, or don't. Whatever.
“It's a well known fact that it was the guys who started everything that our fandom is and who
maintain it” - Brony, Male, 23.
One quote in and I'm already groaning. Well great, you got the opinion of one brony. Is there any polls backing this up that more than one brony thinks this? If you're going to tackles situations this heavy, you need more than just some idiot you interviewed at a convention to back up your claims.
They have formed a niche, where they, the males, are decidedly the ones in
control simply by ordinance of their superior sex
Hyperbole central coming through. Yes, there are plenty of male bronies, and many people who run brony websites are male. Is this because they think they're 'the superior sex'? Maybe a small amount of them, but not the majority.
they have been told that they cannot be
bronies by a vocal male sector
Certainly, there are a good amount of males who don't draw a line between male and female within
the “Friendship is Magic” fandom.
But
it is important to acknowledge that having a loud voice doesn't necessarily mean that you represent
the masses
See, the irony here is that it seems he is proving his own point. He has earlier said it's "a vocal male sector." Yet as he just pointed out, having a loud voice doesn't mean you represent the masses.
To sideline
females who actively want to be called 'bronies' is to alienate a valuable, equal part of what the
fandom is.
So where are the stats to back it up? Where are the accounts that when a female fan asks to be called a brony, the majority of male bronies will decline this. I need some concrete facts to back this up.
But, suppose for a second that I'm going to acknowledge the
'bronies' as being unique and special, as many of them consider themselves to be, puffed up with
vacuous morals of 'love and tolerance'.
This has always been a failed Le Epic Maymay. The majority of bronies are more rabid than most fandoms, saying they don't comply with the message should be common fact by now.
As the quote suggests, males often act unusually around females online upon discovering that they
actually have a vagina.
Now I hate to be the guy who pushes the stereotype, but the average age of a brony is 21, meaning they are still most likely hormone-addled. On top of that, looking back at those results, you will see 96% of bronies are also single. On top of that, as another more personal poll revealed, the majority of bronies (At least those who responded to the poll) are virgins.
While it is ridiculous that people will lose their minds around girls on the internet, it's not surprising in the slightest considering the facts. This is also common on the entire internet, not just with bronies.
I fully assumed that this would be the case, and so ran a test on a website called
'Ponysquare', which was seen as being one of the biggest offenders in this department at the time. I
signed up with two accounts, one male and one female, and allowed for individuals to chat with me.
After accepting/initiating 500 or so friend requests on both accounts, I can report that in the space of
four hours I was approached to casually sex-roleplay seven times on the female account, and not
once on the male account.
Finally, a concrete fact. There isn't really any points to argue with this, and he did a good job actually researching. To say I'm pleasantly surprised is a bit of an understatement. However, it does make another counter-point in its own argument. With 4 hours of RP, he only got 7 sexual RP experiences? For an internet RP site, that's surprisingly tame. If you go on a site like, say, Omegle, you will get an ERP (Erotic Role Play) roughly 1/3rd of the time.
Not all of this sexual voyeurism is consensual. “Tits or GTFO”, a long-standing, and, when said in
earnest, disgusting phrase, occurs at times within the fandom (as well as around the internet in
general).
Le Ebic /b/ Maymay is used less and less on the internet, and more often it's used by memespouting teens than anyone else. I won't pretend people DON'T use this phrase, but the idea that it's a common occurrence is a bit hard to swallow. In 2006/7? Yeah. In 2012 (When the article was written)? No.
Many female members of the fandom have described this attitude as extending to the pony
characters themselves, who are frequently sexualised within the community
This is commonly known on the internet as "Waifufaggatory". It is usually linked with the size of the fandom mixed in with the reliance on female characters in the core media, with a large dose of the size of the male population in the community. Going back to that earlier brony study, we will find that 86% of Bronies as of 2012 are Male. As such, it is not crazy to believe that there is a large supply of sexualized MLP art. Rule 34 may be a silly Le Ebic Maymay, but it still holds ground today.
This does not change the
fact that many females have told me that they find the male fascination with sex within the
community to be concerning, however. Here is one example that a concerned female sent to me
taken from a website called FiMFiction. I have blanked out the user's name, but I felt it appropriate
to keep the entire message to show how disgusting it is:
Now, I won't link the image because of no more NSFW blog posts, but lets just say that this is a rather disgusting comment receiving 21 up-votes and 19 downvotes. The sad part about the boiling pot of disgust that is FiMFiction is that deprived acts in fics are usually supported with likes and comments. For example, the most utterly deprived fic I've ever seen was Mistress Mare Do Well (Which I will NOT link), which received 268 upvotes and 78 downvotes. Normally, I would just cry doom and gloom, but there's an odd little gem known as Mistress Mare Do Well: Fractured Elements, a complete rebuttal and debunking of this story as well as everything it stands for. This fic? It has 216 upvotes and 22 downvotes. What has occurred to me is that most people who disliked Mistress Mare Do Well did NOT bother with rating it, and instead supported this version. Votes on fimfiction have always been shoddy, so I wouldn't ever rely on them to get concrete info in the long run.
However, if we use the above example (and there are plenty more like
it), you can see that some male bronies have a real addiction to sexual domination and the
victimisation of females, fictional or not.
Unrelated. As I have said earlier, people who aren't in to that thing will more than likely just not view or rate it outright. The only people who would upvote that are people sharing the fetish, not your average FimFiction viewer.
Clicking profiles more often than
not shows the sex of the user, and in almost all cases on websites I viewed males far outweigh
females on pony pornography sites.
I hate to keep going back to that brony study, but it does say that 86% of Bronies are male and 84% of bronies are heterosexual. As such, on a website focusing on pornography of female characters, saying that most users are male should be obvious.
There is a
casual attitude towards rape within the community from many people, with one user who contacted
me finding blogs such as 'Princess Molestia' (which has now been taken down) to be offensive,
while other blogs go to much more sordid depths.
It's a dark humor blog, I'm sure that most of the people who go to Princess Molestia (RIP) don't instantly pull down their pants and start jacking off to the cartoons, most of which usually portray Molestia as a devious and unlikeable character.
There is little that represents sexual domination to a
greater extent than a male raping a female, and the “Friendship is Magic” fandom has been
observed by many people who contacted me (both male and female) as having an enormous amount
of pornographic content linked to rape, or, at the very least, the graphic depiction of sexual
unwillingness.
This is another thing that needs facts, where are the facts to back this up. What evidence supports the idea that 'an enormous amount of pornographic content is linked to rape'. I'm not debating this, I'm honestly just curious where this fact comes from.
Now, the next few paragraphs go on to talk about rape and convention safety. Since I have never attended a MLP convention (And I never plan to), I cannot accurately chime in on this matter.
Despite the male side of the “Friendship is Magic” fandom often having an interest in
lesbians insofar as most 'shippings' (the often implausible romantic pairing of characters in a work
of fiction) are between female characters, I have received messages from several concerned lesbians
who have been anything but revered within the fandom.
Now it's time to break out the most quote of the night
"Do you have a single fact to back that up"-JC Denton, Deus Ex
No, really. I hate to sound like a broken record but claims this heavy NEED facts to back them up. You can't just go around claiming thisngs willy-nilly.
Another told me that they have been approached by
overly zealous male bronies who attempted to draw them away from homosexuality.
There are homophobic people? Oh gee wizz who coulda thunk it? Also, homophobia is far from limited to the MLP fandom, this seems like an irrelevant point. Yes, there are assholes on earth, this shouldn't be surprising.
The rest of this section goes on to talk about how females are sexualized by the MLP fandom, but I've already pointed out the problems with this claim about four times already, so time to move on to the next section, superiority.
“Kill it with fire!!!!!!” - Brony, male, 19
Oh no, looks like some people are going to be mean on the internet in this chapter. Prepare yourselves.
The opening paragraph touches on the idea that bronies paint the new MLP series as superior to the first 3 generations, before somehow finding a way to tie it in to feminism.
This is not in any way to suggest that females do not enjoy Generation 4, of course, but
it does suggest that males who have latched on to Generation 4 can use females as a scapegoat for
why the older generations are as they are.
I really don't think that the 'girly' remarks were ever aimed at females. In fact, it was always aimed at the marketing plan. See, this is one of the weirdest things about bronies. They latch on to the fact that the earlier generations of MLP were aimed at little girls, but the simple fact is that the show's marketing hasn't changed. While MLP can tell great stories, it's not there to tell you a story. It's there to sell toys to little girls. That girly remark has never held any water, not then and not now either. So yeah, I'm actually agreeing with one of the author's points. Crazy, I know.
The
logic appears to be that because females watched these older My Little Pony generations and
bought the toys they were 'supporting Hasbro in making a bad show' and should therefore feel
guilty about the quality of the old generations, which these people believe to be unforgivable.
I'm still finding this extremely hard to believe. After 2 years with this fandom, constantly browsing comments, I have yet to see ONE example of this. This includes: DeviantART, Derpybooru, Equestria Daily, /mlp/, YouTube, and FiMFiction. Sure, there may be people who believe this, but they're most definitely the minority.
And they don't even appear to be of the vocal type either.
There have been people who have claimed that
“Friendship is Magic” is 'nothing like' the older generations. While following this train of thought,
these people are alienating the fans of these older generations.
How is this sexism. No, really? How is this sexist. They're not alienating fans because of their gender, it's because they don't like the show.
It is the males, almost exclusively, who use the 'too girly' phrase as an insult to demean
something that a lot of females feel passionately about.
Because the older generations were even more overtly marketed at girls than the newer ones. Less Le Totes Ebic Maymays, less pandering, and a lot less references to pop culture. Boo fucking hoo, it sucks that somebody is mocking something somebody feels passionate about. Isn't that how the internet works in general?
Apart from the fact that undermining previous generations of the franchise is largely pointless, it
also seems unusual to make outrageous claims, as one observed person has, that '[the older
generations] should never have been made'.
Screenshot, please. Or other people supporting it. Or when I look on google I should actually get results involving statements of that kind.
Many of the people
complaining about the earlier generations appear to be quick to sing Lauren Faust's praises, which
strikes me as odd: playing with earlier generations of My Little Pony inspired her to make
“Friendship is Magic” in the first place.
As said earlier, bronies are idiots when it comes to this sort of thing. Once again another valid point.
Similarly, the earlier generations raise an interesting point about how influential some male fans of
“Friendship is Magic” think they are.
Dead on again, but now I really am finding myself what this has to do with sexism.
This hatred of earlier generations of My Little Pony is alarming. One female who loved My Little
Pony from Generation 1 was told by an enraged male that they would 'undo the shit' that her
generation caused, as if people who liked My Little Pony prior to “Friendship is Magic”
systematically chose to like something in order to spite a fandom that had not yet come into
existence.
All of these points are making sense, but they have NOTHING to do with sexism. Just assholes being assholes, regardless of gender.
The false assumption is made that females who
enjoyed the older forms of the brand cannot enjoy them as much as males can enjoy the newer
version, because, at least in their mind, the older versions had no redeemable features.
W-What? Where did this concept come from? Do you really think people who alienate older fans do it because "NO GIRLZ ALOWED". While some may do that, like everything else involving sexism so far I find this extremely hard to believe.
Attacking earlier generations on any pretence of being 'bad' as a direct result of being 'girly' is
inherently sexist.
This is, once again, extremely hard to believe. Sure, some male bronies may hate it because girls liked it, but the majority is because it didn't appeal to their gender. Is a girl not liking, say, GI Joe inherently sexist because all the marketing was aimed at boys? Sure, the gender barriers are broken with a lot of this nowdays, but you will always have a negative or indifferent view on things that don't appeal to your interests.
While there are some fans of the
older generations who dislike “Friendship is Magic”, most of the females I have spoken to who
liked My Little Pony growing up very much enjoy Generation 4. However, they feel alienated from
the fandom surrounding it because, as a general rule, the fandom is hostile towards the previous
generations and antagonistic towards their fans.
Still has nothing to do with sexism in any way shape or form.
Assuredly, this level of
resentment towards the previous generations of My Little Pony pushes fans who have grown up
with all iterations of the popular franchise away, making the “Friendship is Magic” community
seem more like an insular, misogynistic cult than ever before.
No. Cult-like? Yes. Insular? Yes. Misogynistic? Hardly.
The next paragraphs starts talking about how male bronies are antagonistic to the toys, and links that in with sexism yet again.
Another claimed that the Shining
Armor and Princess Cadance Royal Wedding Castle Playset had 'too much pink on it'.
Maybe that's because Canterlot Castle is white, not pink.
Similarly, the individual complaining about the audio phrases of
the Cadance doll being 'too girly' should step back and take a look at who these toys are being
marketed to.
The infuriating this is that whenever the author makes a good point, it also has nothing to do with misogyny and more ego.
You would scarcely
hear people complaining that Transformers or G.I Joe figures are too masculine.
That's because there wasn't a large and vocal GI Joe or Transformers fanbase mostly comprised of females with the internet in the 80s. Also, there are plenty of women who get upset because video games marketed towards men are "Too much of a male power fantasy" (See: Dragons Crown, Halo, Games involving any sort of damsel in distress)
Again, we see this
trajectory of 'male = better' within the “Friendship is Magic” fandom, with a dense layer of
ingrained misogyny underpinning it.
No, we see the trajectory of 'male = better because it appeals to me'. Not 'male = better because da gurlz can't touch it now'.
It is as if the males are 'liberating' the females, because My Little Pony was 'bad' and 'suffering' in
its old state, but because the show is moving in a new, universal direction, so too must the toy range
appeal to adult males.
Back to Hyperbole central again? Oh ok, that's fine. I'll just come back in when assumptions are replaced by facts.
My Little Pony is arguably more accessible now than ever
before to both males and females, but it is important to understand that this does not render the
older products and TV shows, which were, perhaps, more consciously aimed at females, as being
without worth.
It's without worth for the people it doesn't appeal to, this is extremely simple.
A common criticism of the brony documentary, Bronies: The Extremely Unexpected Adult Fans of
My Little Pony, was that it failed to represent females.
Holy crap...
Did...
Did the author seriously just make a point that was not only valid...
But also ties in to sexism?
I really hope this lasts for awh-
The absence of females in the documentary has come under scrutiny already, and seems to be
emblematic of the way in which males dominate the focus of the fandom, while females are
resigned to mere footnotes and comments of 'Oh, and then there are some adult girls who like it
too'.
GODAMNIT.
Listen, the brony documentary was made to point out that male bronies aren't as crazy as you would expect (Though it ended up doing the opposite). See, in the media, a girl liking a show aimed for girls is portrayed as normal, while the reverse is portrayed as insanity. This documentary was made to debunk that myth, not show off how wonderful and diverse of a fandom it is.
The essay goes on, making points that all can be responded with the same point I just made, until we get to this interesting tidbit.
Keeping with the theme
of conventions, one female fan explained to me in detail that they have been instrumental in the
creation of two conventions within the fandom. They explained:
“I have been involved in the planning of two pony conventions, only to see
female planners relegated to 'girl jobs' like running art and cosplay booths, while the
convention chairs, marketing people, people dealing with finances etc. all are guys. All
of this, even when I was the one who brainstormed the initial convention idea in the
first place!
“Check the con lists of any pony convention and ask yourself where the girls are. I
have over 15 years con experience, whereas the people I was passed over for had
[considerably less experience].”
You know what? That actually is sexist and unfair. A girl can market and set up a convention just as well as a guy can. Once again, I hope this trend continues.
And to my pleasant surprise, it actually does, at least for a while. However, it still has the problem it had since the very beginning of this essay. Focusing on a vocal minority, no matter how vocal they may be. For example, this section.
Four people contacted me
and said that when talking about upcoming fan-made games with males they have been undermined
as being unable to play with them because they would 'clearly suck at them' due to being female.
Once again, this is a very vocal minority. Only FOUR people contacted the author with this complaint? Compared to how common I see that insult in other communities, this seems to be supporting going to the Brony fandom.
Thankfully, the rest of this section reverts to the earlier trend of actual examples of actual sexism. Sadly, this only goes on for a few paragraphs before the conclusion. And oh boy what a conclusion it is. Prepare yourselves.
At the risk of making broad cultural and historical sweeps, it is reasonably fair to argue that females
have always been seen as second-class citizens.
In the 60s? Yeah. In 2013? Fat chance. I don't think I need to explain this to anyone.
He then goes on to talk about a user who left a comment 'Of course women are marginalized, but why write about it?'
'Of course women are marginalized'. Let that sink in for a moment. The person who wrote this
comment has at least a latent acceptance that equality doesn't exist between males and females,
either within this community or at a greater cultural and social level. He has stated that he knows
this to be the case, and yet he is skeptical, almost critical, of anyone actually attempting to do
anything about it.
Because that guy? He's an idiot. In the MLP fandom, it's true some women are marginalized. It's also true that they hold the voice actors on a silver godamn pedestal and would eat up anything Lauren Faust put out, regardless of quality. Women are mistreated on the internet everywhere, and guess who else is? Every. Single. Person. If you post on the internet, there will be people who attack you do to race (/pol/, White Privilege, YouTube comments) gender (50% of the internet, Femenist/Cis Scum blogs), and Sexual Orientation (90% of the internet, Die Cis Scum). Nobody will make it out of the internet unscathed.
If anyone wishes to refute any of what I have written here then you are welcome to write a rebuttal,
although I'll remind you that everything stated here has been factually observed as being the case
and is based on real life testimonies.
>Factually observed
All of these 'facts' are more akin to opinions. The last segment had some facts, the other 3 were mostly opinions and generalizations.
The essay finishes it all off by wrapping up the opinions facts by urging Bronies to do some soul searching to make the fandom a better place.
What do I think of this overall? Well, I could make a strongly worded response, or I could just get to the point.
In short.
I'll say what I said in the last blog that talked about this stupid essay.
Not saying this blog is stupid, you're actually completely right in most aspects.
i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee222/merc_the_jerk/meinneger_zpsda9166d9.jpg
1736363
I'm thinking about posting a link to this in the comment section on deviantArt
That is all. Equestria is ours.
1739435 Well, the link on DA is there and I finished reading these back to back. Hopefully, when I read them again later on, I won't have a billion things interrupting me so I can let things soak in.
I would never say that the older generations should burn, die or be destroyed, they just don't appeal to me as how they are presented. What made FiM (partially) appeal to me was the animation style and the "renewed design" of the ponies. The design traits that you see on FiM ponies are alike to those you find in japanese Animes, the round big eyes for example with focus on the glimmering iris, those very much look like eyes you would find in the TV anime series "Sailormoon", which was also a intended shojo series, but was watched by lots of males aswell (not as much as FiM but somewhat similar).
The Anime design of "Sailormoon" btw is drastically different from the drawn manga. While the design in the manga was shojo intended by the artist, they changed the design a bit for the TV series and the characters appeared more appealing for common shonen audience or lets rather say an audience for both genders.
Same with MLP:FiM, those who say that the old generations (which I don't like watching as I mentioned) should have never existed, are dead wrong of course, after all Lauren was inspired by those older generations and thus there would be no FiM.
The best way to describe the anatomical design changes are the smooth, round shapes of the FiM generation ponies with less focus on horse traits, then on humanized or anthropomorphic attributes, while their facial features are also more lively. That said their expressions, very much remind me for example of the classic facial expressions seen in Looney Tune's characters. Combined with the new fluent animation style, the Ponies appear more in a "western-anime-esque", that alone was enough to disarm myself, when I watched FiM for the first time, and I gave it an actual try.
But of course there was much more to make me actually like the series: The individual flaws, kinks and quirks of each character or the excellent and commendable work of the voice-actors, with every voice perfectly fitting one of the mane 6, Celestia, Luna etc. Since german is my native language, I have seen the german Dub, and it wasn't even half as good, with alot of flaws in tone and pitch of the voiceactors, and not enough... well soul!
All in all when I started to watch the series, those points I mentioned made me (as a male) feel "at ease" or "disarmed" with a certain lack of spite while watching it. And with every episode I watched, I came to like FiM a bit more.
Of course, where there is something new on the internet, there will always be R34 stuff following it. Though you could say there is alot of smudge R34 content out there, simple garbage sometimes even, there ARE aswell enough artists out there, real good artists, who put their effort into some commissions, and even if it's R34 content, it also shows certain amount of erotic Aesthetic, which can't just be dismissed.
And since ALL of the MAIN PROTAGONISTS in FiM are indeed female, these commissions will naturally and most likely show them, instead of any males.
Alot of artists are even considerate enough to put a edited or censored version of their commissions out, just to avoid complaints or simply to give viewers, who are not interested in R34 content, a nice picture.
Wow... just, just wow..
This is really sad.
1736363
Just about.
1741123 Er, glad you enjoyed it (I think you did, at least. Still can't tell who the sad is aimed at
)
1740338
2.bp.blogspot.com/-kXNuxAwS3W4/UK4xqYnr6RI/AAAAAAAAZPo/m0FA6z6qRS4/s1600/Metal_Gear_Solid_(PSX)_38.png
1740261
Can't wait to hear your thoughts!
1739435
Ha, saw that in the comments! Thanks, man.
1737612
I chuckled.
You're pretty good.
1736363
Thanks for commenting, and yeah, that is a pretty concise way to sum up the essay.
1741165
The essay in general. It's just sad that people think this. It isn't true. I'm not misogynistic- but, since I'm white and male, I am. The label is forced upon me even if I'm not :P. That's what made me sad about the essay- just more feminist bullshit. It had little to no accuracy at all, and it just annoyed me as a whole. It's one of those things that really puts a dent in your day, you know?
1741232 Welcome to tumblr.
Now check your privilege cis scum ;_;
1742149
ya i know. Too bad I don't care. They can just carry on hating men, and I'll laugh at them. They're trash to me.
This was so worth the read and you saved me the trouble of reading 20 pages of stupidity. Thank you.
A big issue I have with the original essay is the rank hypocrisy of it.
"Since when did girly become a dirty word?"
Well shit then. I guess we can declare that whenever women do anything athletic they are acting manly, right?
Oh, apparently that's not cool. So... yeh, MLP isn't girly for the same reasons that Football isn't Manly.
Girly became a dirty word when the individualist-feminists (Quite rightly) pointed out that activities have f-all to do with gender and shouldn't be tied at the hip to it.
But no, arguments like that make these Gender-Feminists and their heads completely explode and launch them into pulling fire alarms and calling everyone a rape apologist.
Football isn't manly you guys, but MLP is girly.
No, that isn't hypocrisy, you're a rape apologist, etc.
We get to play with everyones toys because we have a vagina, but you have to stick to the ones that aren't exclusively for us.
Tumblerettes one and all. Screw em. They are ruining the work of the good people who fight for gender equality under the individualist, egalitarian, and abolition strains of feminism.
You probably don't notice these feminists because they don't shriek and march around like some kind of cult.
Secondly, I find it completely mindblowing that an essay about sexism that involves the brony fandom has the unmitigated gall to make out that the major victims of sexism when it comes to being a brony are women.
You're shitting me.
I basically only had to read the bit where the writer admits they aren't a brony to immediately realize
"Oh, it's the usual SJW attempt to stick their nose in where they aren't welcome."
*looks at the comment about the upvotes for Misteress Mare Do Well* Like you said, most people who upvote and like that thing, usually are into that thing anyway. He does realize that there a ton more fics on this site where the girls are kickin ass like no one's business right? And those are the more popular ones?
Heck, we got NONETHING ON THE METROID FANDOM!
1742470
Thanks man, I aim to please.
1745587
You pretty much hit the nail on the head there. SJWs have destroyed the meaning of the word misogyny, using it to describe "Any portrayal of women I don't like"
1746522
Alas, poor Metroid fandom. We haven't had anything on the scale of Other M.
Yet.
1747035
Yeah, at least we still have fanfics where the mane 6 are kickin ass and taking names. (more than I can count,) When was the last time we saw Samus winning anything in a fic? Heck, try and point out to me a Sailor Moon fanfic where the senshi gets to be awesome and kick some butt and are still as awesome as they are in the comics or series, because I haven't yet
1747053
>Judging a fandom based on their fanfictions
ISHYGDDT.jpg
1747088
Nah, I really don't...I am just saying that in terms of fanfic quality, having a fanfic with 200 views like Mistress MAre Do Well, really pales in comparison to what I have to put up with in the Sailor Moon and Metroid side of things, the stories I could tell. Now speaking as a moonie, we are pretty cool and we in the Metroid fandom are probably waiting for the better game to come out one day.
I am just pointing out, in terms of fanfic quality...some fandoms are worse
I should also point out, everything that he had said...is rather tame in my eyes.
Whoa, easier there, slugger. Faust has stated she really didn't care for the show but she did like the toys. Lauren ignored the canon personalities of the characters and assigned them their own names and took them all on big adventures... Much like the Mane 6 in FiM. I can freely rant and dislike Gen 1 all I want, considering even Faust herself didn't enjoy it 100%. Quite frankly, the author didn't make a valid point.
That aside, excellent rebuttal. Cuddlepug's "essay" almost drove me back to drinking. Dodged a bullet there.
I think it's pretty true that there's a whole lot of sexism in this fandom; but I don't like how Cuddlepug seems to be singling MLP fans out for this, as if this weren't a problem in nearly every other nerd fandom. The problem is much bigger than MLP; it's important that we try to include female fans equally and treat them with respect, but at the same time we should recognize that this is an issue with all of nerd culture (indeed, culture in general) not just pony fandom.
Unfortunately Cuddlepug does a poor job of presenting these ideas. The essay falls into the trap of picking the worst examples of fan behavior, and letting them stand for the fandom as a whole. The section on porn is a good example.
Cuddlepug does some weird rhetorical stumbling trying to acknowledge that women can and do enjoy porn, but then tries to have it both ways and announces that the large amount of MLP porn is proof of sexism. Yes, most MLP porn is of female characters; on a show where females outnumber males 10 to 1, this shouldn't surprise anyone (it also ignores the existence of female fans who are interested in porn of females, and male fans who are only interested in males.)
Then the whole thing goes off the rails when Cuddlepug includes a screencap from FimFic, which serves no purpose whatsoever other than to go "LOOK GUYS. GROSS." What does the fact that one guy on this site is into some weird fetishes have to do with anything? Once you've reached the point where you're condemning an entire fandom because of one person's kinks (kinks which, gross or not, aren't hurting anyone) you've pretty much shot your own credibility in the foot.
Cuddlepug's basic thesis is actually something I don't disagree with, but the lack of restraint makes it difficult to take this essay seriously.
Honestly, I could probably write a whole essay myself on the ridiculous hypocrisy of some bronies who act like MLP fandom is a boys' club, that it's somehow masculine, or that FiM isn't just as girl-centric as previous installments in the franchise. The fact that they refuse to admit that the show they are watching is, in fact, for girls, is an amazing example self-delusion, driven by pretty sexist ideas (God forbid you should ever enjoy something for girls!)
This was the point Cuddlepug seemed to do the best job explaining. Pity the rest of the essay was so flimsy.
On that note:
1767930
But neither Cuddlepug nor XI9 were speaking exclusively of the show in those comments. The term "generations" primarily refers to toylines anyway (a new cartoon doesn't necessarily mean a new generation; multiple Transformers shows have belonged to the same gen, for example.) Lauren did, in fact, love the toys, but disliked most of the original show (but not all of it.) But the hostile, kneejerk reactions many bronies have against previous gens seem to extend to EVERY aspect of them, and that's pretty ridiculous.
And I do think it's largely because previous gens are seen as overly girly, which is on its face, absurd: FiM is a magical singing horse show where actual plotlines include "Everyone puts on pretty dresses and goes to the big dance party," "One of the ponies puts on a fashion show," and "Three schoolgirls try to get their teacher a boyfriend." Once you've declared yourself a fan of this material, you lose the right to declare yourself above "girly" things ever again. Which is fine: there's nothing wrong with girly stuff. We shouldn't be looking down on it in the first place.
i.imgur.com/2rnQ2UO.png
Of course, as 1745587 correctly points out, some thinkers believe gendered concepts like "girliness" and "manliness" should be eliminated altogether. Perhaps they should. But as long as they're still around, I don't think we should be disparaging "feminine" behavior, in males OR females. The only reason it's looked down on is because of a larger, much older belief that anything female is frivolous, and less important than anything male. And, well, that's bullshit.
I appreciate you taking the time to go over this essay with a fine-truthed comb. I made a blog post regarding a quote of mine which was used in the essay.
I also made a post to help promote your rebuttal. Thanks for all your efforts!
"Girl Jobs" was in quotes, so I hope the phrase was used ironically. Otherwise, isn't it pretty sexist to label 'art' or 'cosplay' as 'girl jobs?' Implying that men would somehow be less qualified in those areas because of their gender?
If it weren't for double standards, SJW's would have no standards at all.
The essay stated in the first five words:
Which automatically set off all my alarm bells. Reading through the rest of it, I got the distinct impression that the author was shocked to find a sexist branch (immature bronies) on an ailing tree (bronydom) in a forest where every other tree is blackened and charred with sexism (the internet).
This entire kerfuffle isn't going to have much of an impact on me. If someone starts exerting social pressure on someone simply for their sex, I'm going to side with the offended party and tell the others to stop.
Clearly the only fair thing to do is flirt with the girls who feel left out.
Lol another ill informed retard. Ether sue him for slander, or DDOs the fucker and move on. Dialogue is impossible with a journalist.
I honestly can't take this rebuttal seriously. Most of what I read in the first essay was true. As a female, I've been told multiple times that I'm not a true fan. It's disgusting.
I'm not going to say that you didn't make some valid points, because you did. It's just still a very skewered view on the community, seeing as both the essay and the rebuttal were both written by males. Until a female is allowed to share the view on females in the fandom, I can't say that I agree with any of the essays.
1768299
You could always write your own essay to get your opinion out there. No one can stop you.
Also, his opinion/view can't be trusted because he's male? Isn't that sexist, too?
1768345
Ugh. Sexism isn't the same when it's female against male. Males are the highest ranked cause of death for females, have a history of belittling them, etcetra etcetra. So no, wanting to read an essay written by the gender that the essay is about isn't sexist.
I have considered writing my own essay, but I have very little time to spare to do so. Perhaps I'll write one in the future, but not for a while.
1768515
I have to assume that you're being facetious, even though I don't see how that helps your argument. If you are being serious, then I don't even need to debate further. You've defeated yourself.
1768540
Oh yes, I have defeated myself because some guy didn't bother to read the whole damn comment. "Yeah, go ahead and write an essay, but the second I find something that I think is wrong you're wrong no matter what!!"
Sorry that your misogyny is so deeply-rooted that you can't bother to look around it, hun.
I wish you could favorite blog posts.
1768549
You're the one assuming that the opposite gender can't be trusted. I don't think you are stupid because you're a woman. I think you're stupid because of the blatant double-standard you're proposing. It's very different.
It would be like saying that only whites can be racist, or something equally asinine.
1768576
Do you want to know why I don't trust the opposite gender, 'Jeremy'? Because until I was eleven, I lived with my father half of the time, and he constantly degraded me because I wasn't as good as my three-years-younger brother. Because to this day, my brother himself swears at me daily just because I am a girl. Because no matter how I cover up, guys like you make lewd comments in the hall about my body. Because if I dare to fight back, I'm a whore or a slut. Because the world has been engineered to make myself uncomfortable about my body no matter how nice I really look.
So I'm sorry if you can't pull your head out of your ass and realize that maybe a girl has a better idea of sexism directed at girls than a guy does.
1768593
I did and was subsequently told how my viewpoint was wrong by two people now (yourself included), so I don't quite see the point you're trying to make.
1768616
...you do realize he was dismissing me before he said that, right? And you say that 'I need proof obvs' but... do you see any proof in his statement? There isn't any solid proof, is there? And yet, you are siding with him. So odd.
1768602
Yeah, sounds like your father and brother are pretty crappy people. That sucks.
To be denied something just because of your gender is wrong, no matter what gender you are. And I would never claim anything different. Yes, women have been historically treated unfairly, even to this day. Yes, that is a problem.
But it doesn't solve the problem to turn that same intolerance around. Treating men differently just because they're men is no better than a woman being treated differently just because she's a woman.
And yeah, I meant it when I said that you should get your opinion out there. Yes, there should be essay's and opinions and whatnot from both sides of the issue. But once again, I'm not going to treat you differently just because you're a woman. If I feel you're wrong about something, I'm going to call you out on it.
Now, going back to the original issue, is there a problem with sexism in the Brony community? Probably. I don't get involved in much fandom stuff, so I have no personal experiences to judge by. But with how prevalent in every other aspect of society it is, I'm sure it is with us too.
But again, denying these article writers their opinions solely because they're male is just as wrong.
1768640
1768345
I'll focus on one point that he made, then.
That's not sexist because the definition of sexism is "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women." -source-
Who has the job discrimination? Hm, I wonder...
10. Claims adjusters, appraisers, examiners, and investigators
> Women’s earnings as pct. of men’s: 69.3%
> Women median weekly earnings: $803
> Men median weekly earnings: $1,158
> Number of workers: 307,000
9. Inspectors, testers, sorters, samplers and weighers
> Women’s earnings as pct. of men’s: 69.2%
> Women median weekly earnings: $570
> Men median weekly earnings: $824
> Number of workers: 621,000
8. Security, commodities, and financial services sales agents
> Women’s earnings as pct. of men’s: 69.1%
> Women median weekly earnings: $862
> Men median weekly earnings: $1,247
> Number of workers: 220,000
-source-
And it goes on.
And let's just glance at some statistics that show that sexism is a one-way street;
-Intimate partner violence made up 20% of all nonfatal violent crime experienced by women in 2001 [while] Intimate partners committed 3% of the nonfatal violence against men.
-Approximately 1.3 million women and 835,000 men are physically assaulted by an intimate partner annually in the United States.
-84% of spouse abuse victims were females, and 86% of victims of dating partner abuse at were female.
-Males were 83% of spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers
-source-
Huh. Almost seems like men are a pretty big danger to women, huh? Enough so that maybe saying I didn't want to read an essay about women - no, against women, in this case - written by a man isn't really sexism at all.
And you don't need to say that you're 'proud of me' for using sources or some of that bullcrap. I didn't do it for you. I did it so my point would get through your thick skull.
1768515
Actually, I believe that would be heart disease.
nhlbi.nih.gov/educational/hearttruth/downloads/html/infographic-dressgraph-bw/images/05_Graph_1.gif
As far as double standards go, men and women are different. That doesn't mean one gender is superior to the other.
1768654
Oh my GOD it's not turning the intolerance around! I don't want to read an article written about women but written by men. That's nothing. I swear, it's not even worth trying with you people.
1768681
Funny, I came to that conclusion about you, too.
1768678
That is a graph related solely to physical illnesses and has nothing to do with the comment until it includes abuse, murder, etc.
1768685
It's kinda funny, you know. A girl tries to make a point without any evidence and everyone wonders what's wrong with her. A guy tries to make a point without any evidence and people dredge up every reason why he doesn't need any. Heh. Kinda funny indeed.
1768697
Why do you keep assuming we're against you just because you're a girl? Is it because that's all a man can do or something?
1768707
Give me a good reason - one that you haven't done as well - that doesn't pertain to my gender and sure, I'll consider it. One thing that I've done that you haven't.
1768715
Well, I can't say anything unless it's backed up by proof, so go ahead and find a chart or something. I'm done looking up things to please you while you don't listen.
1768716
Your gender has never been relevant to this conversation. You made a claim that it isn't sexism if a female does it to a male. I called you out on this hypocrisy. You are also the only one who keeps bringing up your gender. What more reason do you want?
1768737
I backed it up, the site lists fatal as well - had you bothered enough to check the proof you wanted - and I have, again, yet to hear what I've done that the rest of you haven't.
1768745
See that? That was my original comment. I've repeated it multiple times. I don't want to read an essay about women written by males. Originally, that was all there was to it.
There were other people who commented that the essay wasn't right. Did they get 'attacked' about it? Nope. Coincidentally, they were also all male. (whoop dee do maybe it wasn't coincidence)
And on a side note; the definition of double standard is as follows; a rule or principle that is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups. So what you're saying is that I shouldn't bring up my gender in relation to my actions, but if you do it to prove that I'm ~judging men unfairly~ it's perfectly okay. Which is why I disregarded double standards as a 'legit' difference.
Also, you realize that study seems to be quite region-locked and you didn't provide a source site, correct? Not very good at getting proof, for one who promotes it so much.
1768299 I won't question your personal views, but I am curious where you encountered this asshats.
40 stories and having been a member for what looks like over two years on this site alone leads me to think you're a pretty invested fan.
Then again I don't go posting my genitals online and every convention I've seen so far have had some very invested female fans that run their own booths or create and sell cosplay items or show up in very incredible cosplay outfits of their own SIDE BY SIDE of other males. Many are heteros so not sure if feminists will claim those females to be "aiding the offenders" or whatever. But, given how diverse our fandom is and all those meetup pictures in the roundups, I can say that the good majority of actual fans do in fact co-exist with the opposite sex just fine.
Next time someone tries to act like a cunt to you, just ignore their idiocy. They only feel empowered when they get replies. Acknowledging their idiocy will only get them to act stupider.
One doesn't have to know every nuance of an episode and recall every reaction face and able to point to what episode and timeframe it ocurred to be a true fan. Sure, there is a minimum expectancy of at least knowing who the mane 6 are and basic stuff like that. Even just writing stories about past gens and loving the brand itself (past gens, toys, etc.) is enough to label you a brony, or if you prefer which many more are embracing these days despite having hated it during the early years when girls started to warm up to the new series, a "Pega-sis".
Whatever you relate to most, even just writing and putting one pony fanfiction qualifies you as a pretty big fan. xD
Here's one huge fangirl of MLP's thoughts on a past gen who was very excited to see the series finally being picked up again!
First hand opinion on of a REAL female on My Little Pony being brought back by Hasbro
There are also plenty of great female and feminist analysis videos that have a real view and opinion on the brony fandom and how THEY view the show. Many can be found on EQD. And many have amazing points and views you should check out.
Far as the fandom goes, unless you love to hate, I'd advise just continuing to ignore the haters and lead by example. You can't turn minds with more bigotry and hate, sadly the extremist sides of many neo feminists and b-tards are forever at war with each other and neo fems only give them more excuses to hate the word "Feminist" itself. Learning to see and respect that some might like things you don't goes a long way to making people feel more able to open up and accept you.
1768806
wow
it's almost like
two different genders
(including the one being discussed)
couldn't have different views about a situation
wow
i'm so impressed by this deduction!
Please, do go on.