I really should do these things before deciding to go to bed.

So, the next episode is "The Summer Sun Setback", and this time, it's by Mike Vogel! Not saying everything he writes is good, but that's promising.

The title makes me] think of daylight savings time. Maybe Twilight's gonna be raising the sun today, but forgets to roll things an hour back, and Luna wants more sleep, so doesn't correct her. Or she's staying up doing World of Warcraft raids or something, and can't be interrupted.

Just was watching an episode of Ducktales where a mummy of an Egyptian Pharaoh was 'raising the sun' by opening and closing a little opening in the ceiling to let in light. And his servants were rebelling because they wanted burritos.

Burritos are a good reason for rebellion. I could use a burrito.

Anyways, this is the thread for discussing the episode. Enjoy!

--Sweetie Belle

6967485 Burrito Belle? Taco Belle?

6967485
This is the only leaked episode that I've watched. I'm not gonna spoil anything, of course, but I dare say people are probably going to like it.

6967510
This group is being sponsored by Taco Belle

6967539

6967485
-sigh- this episode was only Okay to Meh at best for me :/

My biggest annoyance? The Royal Sisters once again bringing up the whole retiring from ruling Equestria and having Twilight and her friends take their place arc again.

I mean seriously, we know it was Lauren Faust's original vision to have Twilight to do that..... but really though: Has the series even mentioned that PRIOR to Season 9 though?!!!

6967636
Yeah, the central idea is still stupid, but this episode does at least do a fairly decent job with it. Discord seemed fairly redundant, though.

6967639
:T

Anywho..... while the whole episode was Okay to Meh for me, I did like this mare that appeared in it :3

Her name is Fire Flare btw :3

6967636
Everyone's a damn critic.

6967682
It's just.... the retirement arc for the Royal Sisters makes no sense whatsoever -_-

I don't know what you're on about, this episode was fantastic.

6967684
They've been watching over Equestria for thousands of years. Over the course of 9 seasons, they've seen Twilight grow from a shut-in bookworm student to a capable leader who along with her friends has prevented numerous apocalypse scenarios.

Even taking all of that aside, it's only natural that they'd want to eventually let someone else take over.

6967688
Celestia may have had a long run, but Luna only got back to Equestria in the last decade.

6967688

Even taking all of that aside, it's only natural that they'd want to eventually let someone else take over.

In all honestly: I hope they (the Royal Sisters) DON'T retire at all. Besides..... Twilight would just clearly be overworked to the bone of her pony body if she ends up ruling over all of Equestria from the Royal Sisters.

Believe me: I have been through similar situations of which I have been overworked as well :P

6967691

but Luna only got back to Equestria in the last decade.

SEE?!! clear example right there! And besides.... somepony needs to run the dreamscape!

6967699
I'm certain they'll work that out.

6967692
Which is why she's enlisting her friends to help ease the burden.

6967692

Twilight would just clearly be overworked to the bone of her pony body if she ends up ruling over all of Equestria from the Royal Sisters.

No, she wouldn't. She's proven plenty of times to be a master organizer, and she's supposed to do so with FIVE other ponies helping her. It will be, at the very least, three times less exhausting for her than it has been for Celestia with Luna's aid; six times less exhausting than when Celestia went solo.

somepony needs to run the dreamscape!

Nope. Luna was missing for a thousand years, and nothing happened. It doesn't need anyone.

6967708
The dreamscape might need occasional management, but given that it was radio silent for about a thousand years, I think I'll be fine.

6967708

Luna was missing for a thousand years, and nothing happened. It doesn't need anyone.

Pfft, says the person with a Luna profile picture/avatar

6967636
It depends on whether you view certain events as foreshadowing for Twilight to become an alicorn and the subsequent princess duties which followed. I.e. the Sombra arc and Twilight being tested to see if she is ready for the power and responsibilities of being an alicorn and greater power and responsibilities which would come with her having successfully passing her test. (Military might) Then the book of Starswirl's unfinished spell. (Interpersonal problem solving) Twilight feeling like she doesn't have purpose though she became an alicorn princess. (Self discovery) The trial of Our Town. (Civic problem solving) The redemption of Starlight Glimmer. (Power of reconciliation and compassion) The friendship quests. (Civic problem solving) The School of Friendship. (Administration).

6967722
My advice to the Royal Sisters for the series finale though? DON'T retire at all!

6967725
Why not?

6967719

says the person with a Luna profile picture/avatar

And despite my bias, I still see and acknowledge the fact that the dreamscape doesn't need Luna. It has been proven since episode 1.

6967726

Because it's pointless. Simple at that.

They will get bored of their retirement mind you that :P

6967692
Except that Twilight would have her friends to help her administer her duties.

I.e. what's a princess of friendship without her friends?

6967727
Whatever. Retiring is just a dumb motive for the duo.

6967730
But that's only when she became the Princess of Friendship and not ruler of Equestria!

I could see Twilight ascending eventually, or in an emergency situation. But as it is, it feels wrong. Nevertheless, she and her friends did quite well in this episode.

6967728

Because it's pointless. Simple at that.

1. They want to retire.
2. They may never wanted to actually rule.
3. They are immortal and have been chained by their office since forever.
4. Twilight can take over.
5. A different pov might do things even better.
6. There is absolutely no reason not to.
7. Getting them to continue ruling despite not desiring to is nothing less that approving their enslavement for one's personal enjoyment/desire.

6967736
So? SO!?!! they will know that retiring is gonna suck for them!

6967738
You can't say that for sure. And even if they do tire of it, it may take them quite a while.

6967728
Because nobody gets bored of an occupation which they have been doing for more than a millennium.

6967743
Which is why it's fairly reasonable for Celestia. Luna, not so much... but her main thing is dreams, and there's been no real indication she's giving those up.

6967738
Wouldn't ruling for another thousand years also grow tiring for them? More so then retirement?

6967738
Oh? Based on what? When did they say that?

Didn't you previously say that the job is exhausting? Haven't they been doing it forever? They still haven't grown bored of it? Or is it that there is NOTHING else for them to do? They have infinite time, but there's only one job for them to do, for all eternity? Man, if that doesn't sound like a version of hell, I don't know what does.

6967738
They actually seem pretty convinced that retiring will be great.

Meh. Last month's viewing. Good episode, though.

Bring on "Growing Up", Australia!

6967852
How. They will get bored of it though. :/

Finally, I can actually talk about this episode. First, I swear Discord knows about grogar, and the fact that there might be another pony war in the finalley is awesome.

Can’t wait to see more episodes.

6967854
Bored of being able to do whatever it is they want? More bored than continuing to work for a few more centuries? Most people I know are either very much looking forward to retiring or are already enjoying being retired.

6967854
If I was Celestia, the chance of retiring after ruling Equestria for thousands of years would be the best thing that's happened in my life. Any job could be tiring after doing it for the past centuries.

6967708

Nope. Luna was missing for a thousand years, and nothing happened. It doesn't need anyone.

Who said Nightmare Moon wasn't still controlling dreamscape from the moon? We really haven't been given a range for her magic.

6967736

They may never wanted to actually rule.

Luna became Nightmare Moon and fought her sister twice to try and rule. I would say that points to some part of Luna wanting to rule.

6970956

Who said Nightmare Moon wasn't still controlling dreamscape from the moon?

The Nightmare has been credited as a separate entity. Even without that in context, then the idea of an evil, avenging prisoner who can manipulate dreams and not using them to wreak havoc, something that we saw can easily be accomplished by accident, is pretty ludicrous to entertain as a plausible scenario.

Luna became Nightmare Moon and fought her sister twice to try and rule. I would say that points to some part of Luna wanting to rule.

First objection: Luna wanted recognition, not to rule. Wanting to rule solo was secondary to her primary goal. Like all slipery slope villains however, Nightmare Moon devolved to wanting to rule for the sake of ruling.

Second objection: With that in mind, the chance to avoid such temptations that brought her to fight her sister by surrendering the role to ponies who stopped her, saved her, and proved their mettle, would be taken with both wings by Luna at this point. For Luna, this is the best possible scenario. She has gained her recognition, she has proven to be a good ruler in her short return, and she has nothing else to prove other than that the temptation of rulership holds no sway over her. It would be the ultimate absolution and rejection of her past as Nightmare Moon.

Is there anything to discuss about this ep that isn't arguing as to whether the Princesses should retire?

6970963
Ignoring the comic, this depends on Nightmare Moon's motives. If she is mostly focused on her sister she would have no real reason to wreak havoc especially if her plan is to take her sister by surprise when she comes back. Wreaking havoc in dreams would not only tip her hand to Celestia but undermine her long term goal of getting ponies to worship the night as they do the sun.

Also being someone involved in dreams would explain why Nightmare Moon didn't need time to gather intelligence to kidnap Celestia, even though Ponyville didn't exist when she was vanished. It would explain why Nightmare Moon didn't show up at the old castle as soon as she was freed since she knew Celestia was at Ponyville because she could see into everyone's dreams.

Luna didn't become power hungry when she first started making decisions on her own i.e her handling of the pony tribe in the forest (Journal of the Two Sisters) and her entire beef was recognition as you said so just giving up leadership seems extreme. Especially in light of Sunset Shimmer being trusted with leadership after being far more drunk with power then Luna (We never seen Nightmare Moon attempt military conquest through mind control like Sunset attempted).

6971014
That's reason for her to spy on dreams, and not to actively terrorise them, but she could still do subtler things without showing her face, and she certainly didn't need to actually help.

6971014

she would have no real reason to wreak havoc

She clearly demonstrated she had no problem ruling through fear. It's NIGHTMARE Moon.

if her plan is to take her sister by surprise when she comes back

Kinda stupid to plan that if there's a prophecy. And yeah, IF she had access to dreaming, she would know the prophecy.

but undermine her long term goal of getting ponies to worship the night as they do the sun

Her plan was never to give ponies any choice. There simply would be no sun.

It would explain why Nightmare Moon didn't show up at the old castle as soon as she was freed

Because she couldn't know by, say... magic?

Besides, we don't know if it was Nightmare Moon who found Celestia or the other way around. For all we know, Celestia was waiting there and got pwned in her usual fashion. Then Nightmare Moon went to brag at the nearest town.

There is absolutely no reason to assume she had any kind of freedom when one of the greatest powers in the series was used to completely trap and isolate her. If she didn't have access to the dreamscape, it all makes sense just fine. It she did have access to the dreamscape, then we have to imagine convoluted scenarios and motives that explain why she didn't use it from beginning to end. Occam's Razor says that the scenario with the least assumptions is usually the correct one. It applies here.

Luna didn't become power hungry when she first started making decisions on her own

It's not about being power hungry. She isn't. That's the whole argument. She doesn't need or want to be a ruler. Why would she?

so just giving up leadership seems extreme

Why? What does she lose that she doesn't have already? If she chooses to rule just so she rules, she's back on the same cycle.

especially in light of Sunset Shimmer being trusted with leadership after being far more drunk with power then Luna

Someone doing one thing doesn't mean the other should. Sunset Shimmer's decisions, achievements, fails, rewards, or whatever, have no bearing on any other character nor are they judged by them. And there's a massive difference between a leadership role in a group and one of the highest authority.

Luna has no reason to continue ruling save for want. She has established she doesn't want to, because she intends to retire.

6971028
But there is a logic behind her actions. Wrecking havoc while on the moon doesn't really help her achieve her long term goal while risking weakening Celestia so she gets taken out which Nightmare Moon doesn't want. Think how angry Nightmare Moon would be to see her sister in turned to stone at the hand of Discord and she would be fully aware Discord like her is only temporary imprisoned in a weakened state.

Celestia isn't exactly known for being good at long term planning. Remember Twilight was Celestia's plan yet even after Sunset failed to be moulded to defeat Nightmare Moon (Celestia didn't even know what Sunset was up to or if Sunset would comeback to side with Nightmare Moon), Celestia didn't make any contingency plan. No guard or spy ran up to Twilight to fill her in, even if Celestia planted the book Twilight found it had far less information then Celestia knew. There was a huge risk that Twilight wouldn't know how to active the Elements and just get her ass kicked by Nightmare Moon, hell if not Pinkie then Twilight might have gone to Canterlot to search their library and all because Celestia is bad at preparations.

Thus it does make sense, from what Nightmare Moon saw, Celestia dropped the ball hard with Sunset and only Twilight stood between her winning yet Twilight received little training. Thus why Nightmare Moon was so confident, she already won, Celestia was taken care of and all she had to do was keep Twilight away from the old castle. This would also explain why Nightmare Moon spied on Twilight rather then move on to secure her rule by taking over Canterlot.

You do realize that Luna is defacto second in command, if she didn't hit in the movie then it would have been Luna leading up the liberation of Canterlot from the Storm King.

6971077
The argument you formulate has these specific problems.

You renegotiate Nightmare's Moon and Celestia's long-term thinking and planning so that the reverse is true in order for your argument to stand. A reversal, which is in sharp contrast of what we know. First, Nightmare Moon has canonically shown herself to be a creature of satiating her immediate desires. She immediately attacked Celestia one on one a thousand years ago, never even thinking to remove the most powerful weapon despite your arguments of strategic mindset, and she also shown herself to play with her food, so to speak, in the second episode. There are more instances, but I believe the point is proved enough.

Celestia, not being forward thinking is also a false, especially when using your arguments regarding the first two-parter, as they show failure to understand the notions under which the Elements operate. The Elements have shown themselves to work and be rewarded due to true friendship—a concept impossible to come to life through a spy, a book, or instructions that Twilight must do so. Remember that Celestia basically ordered Twilight to make friends nevertheless, and she couldn't do it as well as didn't care. What the Elements needed to work was honest friendship—and trying to fake it while one of the Elements is Honesty would be a blunder of unimaginable proportions.

Celestia's preparations were spot on. She sated NM's bloodlust by giving the fight first, so even if she lost NM would have mellowed out and give Twilight a chance, Twilight who had been moved to the most perfect place with extremely careful selection of words to make her focus on NM while making sure her only Celestia given advice would still have been "make friends."

So, no. A strategist would have used the dreams of a thousand years to win. Do you understand what you can do with a thousand years of control over a population's subconscious? If Nightmare Moon had control of the dreamscape, as soon as she came out there would be millions waiting for her, to welcome back the prophesied Savior, and handing Celestia over, completely beaten and lost centuries past.

You do realize that Luna is defacto second in command, if she didn't hit in the movie then it would have been Luna leading up the liberation of Canterlot from the Storm King.

I am currently sweating. Ergo, that means I must desire to always sweat. Isn't that correct, following your argument here?