At January 12th I posted these words in response to someone in this group.

Well, get used to it. If you're not happy about yourself, then it's your fault and only you can fix it. If you don't want to, then tough luck. There's only so much other people can do. You either do the work to make yourself a healthier person or you stick with complaining and day-dreaming for the rest of your life with nothing to show.

---

We've had this talk a dozen times so far. You know what you need to do.

You just don't want to.

Those words (and many others) were greeted by upvotes, downvotes to the OP who seeked aid, and no comment or response that I was being offensive or rude.

At January 27th another user said this to the exact same OP in a different thread.

SEE A THERAPIST
If you won't it just shows you are more interested in moaning and whining than in ever POSSIBLY feeling better. I look forward to seeing my therapist, and will next week. If you don't get one you like just switch to another. I'm 2-3X older than most of you and this shit will follow you through life. It won't go away when you finally land your dream job or girlfriend or get a degree in Tribal Women's studies or whatever panacea you've picked out that will solve all your problems.

The difference was massive. The user was reprimanded by other users, their every comment downvoted while those who reprimanded them got nothing but upvotes, and my attempt to speak in their defense resulted in downvotes to my attempts. What's more, further posts on the thread of January 12th by myself resulted in more downvotes while the rest of my earlier posts were left untouched and in the green.

This isn't not an attempt to lay blame. This isn't an attempt to defend the user again. Keep this in mind, and I ask you to actually speak rather than blindly hit an upvote or downvote on anyone's post. This is an attempt to begin a conversation.

I would like as many of you to offer your responses to some questions and points.

1. Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of this group is to offer support, aid, and advice, to people who are in a bad place mentally and ask or need it. I believe we can all agree to this? If not, what are your thoughts? Should perhaps advice be not what we offer, for instance, for wariness of making things worse?

2. My reasoning is that if you can help someone, then all paths are open. Of course, try to be reasonable, kind, supportive, and gentle. I do not, personally, believe that this is the sole path to reaching someone. Some people deal with better direct ways. Some people might need to be dealt with more direct ways. Heck, some people might need what is colloquially known as a "swift kick in the arse." I haven't delivered one of these—not in this group—, though I have perhaps come close. My method is to "feel" a person out. Be kind, talk to them, offer advice. Get a sense of them. See what helps, what works. Perhaps you might need to move to more direct talk, perhaps not. Understand the person, their needs, and not focus on keeping to a template. If something works you should keep with what is working, correct? Is something doesn't work, shouldn't you try something else? Do you agree or disagree? Do you believe there are other methods?

3. Going by those two questions, I want to return to the history I set up above. For some reason, it was acceptable of me to be direct and aggressive to the OP by the group members. When another person did this in a much lesser extent (to barely existent in my opinion) it was not acceptable, despite that being to the same OP. What do you believe caused this change? If you were present in both threads, why respond one way to one but not to another? What was the variable that changed?

4. Should we be critical of each other's attempt to help as users or should it be up to the mods to settle this? In two different threads such arguments sparked up, one of which got deleted. In an attempt to critic a, let's call it this, 'cruder' post of aid, what happened was that in both ocassions nothing was achieved. Worse, the person in need was left hanging. The use of language and tone took priority over the purpose of the group. Do you believe this was settled in a satisfactory matter? What do you believe should change? Should the thread derail to 'censor' someone or should that be left aside as long as it's not something actually detrimental? Should that decision be up to the group members or should we expect the group mods to be more active?

5. This is a bit more about me, you may choose to skip this. It is an honest question I have. After what happened in the latter thread, I made, for different reasons, another post in the earlier thread. In that post I praised the OP for strength they shown during a hefty loss, explained how they dealt with something I didn't know and I hoped I could be as strong as them when the time came, and showed my support towards the proposal to have the OP, and it is a good tactic I believe still, to talk about more than just their problems but their life in general and find together the positives in them as well as aid them in making friends. That positive post was downvoted, and only that. Do you believe this is fair, not to me (fuck me, I don't care, I'm doing well) but to how the OP might have perceived the message later by seeing negativity relate to praise to him? Do you think that we should address whether grudges or bad blood has a place in a support group like this? What can we do in order to make it so that people with issues will NOT have to be wary or seeing themselves as the cause of troubles and fights? In fact, do you believe downvoting someone who seeks aid, which happened in the earlier thread, is something that should happen?

I hope you will all choose to be vocal and post actual responses. I hope none of you will take sides, not even mine, and I hope that we will speak of the previous threads only as outcomes and not what happened in them. There was no positive gain in them, only loss from all sides, and I think it's something that should be addressed earlier rather than later. This is about how approaches should be. This is about making a discussion and seeing what ideas and new perspectives all might have to offer. This is so what happened won't happen again anytime soon.

I have been very wordy, I know. I really hope you will all be so as well. I look forward to hearing from you all.

1: Offering support is fine. But we must admit that sometimes, the support must be offered firmly and carefully. The main issue I had with a certain User was the fact that their response was... less than calm and collected, which, is the difference between you and them. You were stern but you didn't take it too far with your words and rant.

2: I agree. But as I said, even when more direct, we must be collected, use our words carefully, and CHOOSE our words carefully. Otherwise, yes, sometimes the direct approach is necessary.

3: See above.

4: It is up to the people to decide, the mods have the final decision but the Vote and Reply system are there for a reason, and from experience, Private messages are not advisable. And let's keep in mind when a person makes a mistake they will keep doing it until someone says something, we said something and there were scuffles on both sides to a certain degree. The person being "censored" should consider people's advice at the very least.

5: I understand why it happened, and it wasn't a good reason. I personally don't downvote for a petty reasons. People are going to do what they want on the internet though, sadly.

7134460
Let me preface this by saying that I mostly lurk on this group. It's a rare day when I feel in a position to really help people... and that could be for a number of reasons. Lots of times, I feel ill-equipped to speak to their situation. Many other times, I feel like they aren't genuinely motivated to really overcome their struggles. I'm happy to lift someone up if they need lifting up, but I'm not really game to go dishing out empty niceties to people who lack self-awareness.

All that said, I've gone back and read (in some cases, skimmed--holy shit guys) through some of the recent threads that apparently sparked this. My thoughts?

1. Groups like these are always a mixed bag. You'll have the people who are being melodramatic about something small. You'll have people going through relatable, difficult trials. You'll even have people wrestling with harder to understand, but no less difficult mental hurdles like existential crises. Everyone handles these things differently based on their background. I'm going to assume the majority of the users here are not licensed mental health professionals, so our help will also be a mixed bag. We can do our best with the evidence before us. Since this is a general support group, you never know if someone will be able to say the right thing. The thing that person needs to hear.

I've posted in this group before about my own family problems, and was relieved to have people who understood. They didn't just give me kind nothings, they pointed me to targeted support groups online. From those other support groups I better understood what was happening in my life and found a therapist trained for that issue. Life eventually got better. That wouldn't have happened unless I'd posted here. Sometimes we need these spaces to connect with the right people. Is there a chance it could backfire? Sure... But when it works, it works.

People posting here just need to understand one thing--they aren't talking to mental health professionals. You may or may not find what you need here. And for the people giving advice, we just need to take into account that our words have weight. The consequences of those words are something we should also be prepared for, no matter what. People might not be receptive to our advice. You do what you can. Just check your intentions, and make sure you're coming from the right place. I've seen some responders basically take out their frustration on OPs for something that they clearly aren't personally guilty of. (Y'know. The generalizing "Ugh, I'm tired of you people" kind of attitude.)

2. I absolutely agree. Some people, in a moment of weakness, may just need a kind word. You'll know it worked if that person doesn't come back with the same problem again anytime soon. But if someone repeatedly comes back with the same issue, basically demanding that their ego be propped up, then a different tact is needed. They need someone to be direct to pierce through their delusion or misconception.

But I think there's one thing I think that doesn't quite go with what you're saying, Crimmar, and that's this: if the person is being stubborn and refusing to see things in a different light, then it's better to just quit. You can't lose time to someone who doesn't want to improve. And who knows? Maybe they really do just need a different method. The bottom line is, most of us aren't trained professionals. A method or tact unknown to us may be what that person needs.

Another thing: sometimes not giving attention to melodrama is the best thing for that person. It forces them to utilize their own coping skills, and with luck, re-evaluate their situation. Could they worsen instead? I mean, sure. But their lives aren't our responsibility. This is just a general support group. The people we reply to aren't our patients. Technically, we owe nothing to them.

3. Honestly, it could just be that maybe some people objected to the degree of directness being used. Or maybe the second example triggered folks because the poster said they were older than other people, and they maybe saw that as being talked down to and resented that (we have a LOT of young people on this site.) Or maybe it was just that different people saw the posts than before. I mean who knows. I don't really feel this should be focused on too much. People upvote and downvote for silly reasons.

4. Maybe just leave it up to the mods. In many real-life support groups, crosstalk isn't allowed precisely because it leads to arguments about language. I think it can be left up to common sense on whether something is clearly out of line, but when getting in the weeds, issues can get muddled. Tone, word choice, etc... I mean, these are all subjective. The mods run the group, and so they have the most authority to really sort it out. Just to keep the peace, I think that's best.

5. Y'know, you raise an interesting point there. If I were in the OPs position, yeah, I could see people downvoting your post about feeling good about my life as something against me. But since I'm just jumping into the middle of this, I don't know precisely what post you are referring to, so I can't speak with any sort of confidence on the matter.

I have been very wordy, I know.

Dude, I'm guilty of it too. I thought you were detailed and gave a lot of thought to your words. Sorry if mine doesn't properly address your concerns.

7134460
Respect for making this thread.

Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of this group is to offer support, aid, and advice, to people who are in a bad place mentally and ask or need it. I believe we can all agree to this? If not, what are your thoughts? Should perhaps advice be not what we offer, for instance, for wariness of making things worse?

Depends on the thread. I've made some threads here for the sole purpose of ranting, where I wasn't looking for advice. And I've also made threads where I was looking for advice. So I guess it depends on the opening post.

Going through this forum, it seems there are primarily 3 types of threads.
1. People just needing to let out some steam
2. People who need help
3. People who are beyond the help of this forum

The first kind need support but I don't think advice is always helpful here. The second kind obviously need advice. And the third kind need links to nearest mental health professionals.

2. My reasoning is that if you can help someone, then all paths are open. Of course, try to be reasonable, kind, supportive, and gentle. I do not, personally, believe that this is the sole path to reaching someone. Some people deal with better direct ways. Some people might need to be dealt with more direct ways. Heck, some people might need what is colloquially known as a "swift kick in the arse." I haven't delivered one of these—not in this group—, though I have perhaps come close. My method is to "feel" a person out. Be kind, talk to them, offer advice. Get a sense of them. See what helps, what works. Perhaps you might need to move to more direct talk, perhaps not. Understand the person, their needs, and not focus on keeping to a template. If something works you should keep with what is working, correct? Is something doesn't work, shouldn't you try something else? Do you agree or disagree? Do you believe there are other methods?

I like your method of feeling someone out first, and you've always been helpful to me. I'm a pragmatist, in that whatever works is the best thing to do. If being a helpful dick is the absolute best way to help someone, then so be it. If being super kind is the best way to help someone, then do that. Overall, I believe you do a great job here. I just feel like sometimes you like to debate people on the internet a bit too much, which causes your original message to get lost. I've been there too, so I relate.

I'll answer the other questions tomorrow (it's 140 am where I live haha)

Edit: For #3 - 5 I agree with Everfree Pony below

7134460
Others before me have already made good points that I agree with, but here are my words and not votes:

1. Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of this group is to offer support, aid, and advice, to people who are in a bad place mentally and ask or need it. I believe we can all agree to this? If not, what are your thoughts? Should perhaps advice be not what we offer, for instance, for wariness of making things worse?

It depends on what the OP seeks. They might want just a momentary relief, and thus the sole purpose of their thread might be ranting. Or maybe they just want to know they are not alone in their situation. I’d summarise these as a short-term help that a bunch of anonymous horse lovers can offer.

Now, about giving advice. Personally I have nothing against it, but a good thing to remember is to not give advice that’s tinted with emotion, intoxication, weariness, frustration, whatever else that you do not have under your full control. Simply don’t lace your advice with imperfect you. Stick to objective facts—you’ll come off far more professional, and people might actually listen to what you have to say. Furthermore, noone is going to accuse you of being too mild or too harsh if you stay objective.

Now, allow me to jump right to 3:

3. Going by those two questions, I want to return to the history I set up above. For some reason, it was acceptable of me to be direct and aggressive to the OP by the group members. When another person did this in a much lesser extent (to barely existent in my opinion) it was not acceptable, despite that being to the same OP. What do you believe caused this change? If you were present in both threads, why respond one way to one but not to another? What was the variable that changed?

First and foremost, I’d say you were direct, but not aggressive, at least from my point of view. Also, I don’t think I have ever seen you respond to someone without your trademark snarkiness. Personally I don’t consider it the best approach in every situation, but you do you. On the other hand, the other person is usually quite calm and collected, so their reaction was surprising to say the least. And also, full of the ‘you’ problem addressed in 1.

Furthermore, I’d argue that the OP we are talking about here needs professional long-term help. As Deep above said, he is beyond the scope of the forum. However, I have been just sporadically keeping an eye on this affair of his, but I still noticed that the one thread that went to hell was different. He wasn’t just ranting, he was asking for advice on making friends (or at least seemed to). I reckon we all can agree that he needs a therapist, but admittedly making friends is something a therapist cannot truly help you with. Thus that other person’s comment was slightly off-topic and not really helpful in the context of the sought advice.

Back to 2:

2. My reasoning is that if you can help someone, then all paths are open. Of course, try to be reasonable, kind, supportive, and gentle. I do not, personally, believe that this is the sole path to reaching someone. Some people deal with better direct ways. Some people might need to be dealt with more direct ways. Heck, some people might need what is colloquially known as a "swift kick in the arse." I haven't delivered one of these—not in this group—, though I have perhaps come close. My method is to "feel" a person out. Be kind, talk to them, offer advice. Get a sense of them. See what helps, what works. Perhaps you might need to move to more direct talk, perhaps not. Understand the person, their needs, and not focus on keeping to a template. If something works you should keep with what is working, correct? Is something doesn't work, shouldn't you try something else? Do you agree or disagree? Do you believe there are other methods?

Getting a feel for who you are talking to is definitely a good way to start. Of course, once you determine who are you confronting, you have a plethora of methods to choose from until you find the sufficient one (i.e. there might be even better approach, but if what you do works, stick to that). I truly have nothing to complain about here, so I’ll just drop a rather interesting fact that might come in handy sometimes:

I’m sure you have heard about people being either introverts or extroverts, shy or open, respectively, if you will. That’s one way of defining these personality types. Another is based on logic. Introverts respond better to emotions (usually positive emotions), extroverts will open up to you after you confront them with hard facts. They want you to challenge their opinions. The former want you to gently pry them out of their shell, the latter need the shell crushed to dust.

Now, it might seem that I’m clashing with what I said above—always no emotions, just hard facts. However, giving advice and letting people open up to you is different. If needed, first let them open up by whatever means possible. Once they are outside their shell, be as firm and objective as you need to. They are ready to listen to anything you have to say.

4. Should we be critical of each other's attempt to help as users or should it be up to the mods to settle this? In two different threads such arguments sparked up, one of which got deleted. In an attempt to critic a, let's call it this, 'cruder' post of aid, what happened was that in both ocassions nothing was achieved. Worse, the person in need was left hanging. The use of language and tone took priority over the purpose of the group. Do you believe this was settled in a satisfactory matter? What do you believe should change? Should the thread derail to 'censor' someone or should that be left aside as long as it's not something actually detrimental? Should that decision be up to the group members or should we expect the group mods to be more active?

I’d go for being critical, especially if someone is giving advice that’s objectively just wrong or ever ‘cruder’ as you say. To be honest, I don’t think that the critiques were the problem in either of these threads. It seemed to me that the problem was the inability to respond to the critiques in a calm and collected way. There might have been a meaningful discussion instead of a flame war if people managed to keep themselves in check. Furthermore, I think that’s where the group mods should show up and usher the quarell to PMs or somewhere else in order for it to not derail the thread. Of course, an ordinary user might attempt that as well, but if you have a shiny badge to wave around, people are more likely to listen to you.

As for 5, I’ll just keep it short. While you pose a lot of interesting questions, I don’t think I want to respond to something that’s unsolvable and seems a bit too much like tilting at windmills. As long as people are people, you cannot do anything about votes, grudges, and bad blood.

7134460

I have observed the mentioned thread and the 'drama,' and I can tell you why (IMHO) Janie's first post got so many down-votes.

First, look again at the quotes you provided above. Do you really don't see a difference? For me, the first one is saying:

"If you want to change, you need to work on yourself, nobody is going to do that for you."

While the second one screams:

"Stop whining here and find a fucking therapist! Listen to me because I'm older and know better!"

The first one is telling the sad truth and is useful, the second one is just a screaming cliche.

Saying 'see a therapist' is as useful as saying 'suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem.' The people saying that may have good intentions, but what they fail to understand that 9/10 people don't NEED a goddamn shrink ! I don't know where the hell this 'see the rapist' culture came from, but it has to stop because it blocks access to specialists for people that REALLY needs them.

• You're feeling sad because you have no friends? That's NOT a work for a specialist!
• You're feeling sad because your parents treat you like a robot, expecting you will be A grader in everything? That's NOT a work for specialists!
• You're feeling sad because you're in debt? That's NOT a work for a specialist!
• You're feeling sad because you don't know your place in life? AGAIN NOT a work for a specialist!
• Nothing brings you joy, and you're thinking about suicide? That MAY BE a case for a specialist, BUT again, according to studies, 8/10 (if I recall) people felt suicidal at one point in life, so even that is a stretch

Look, I've read literally thousands of posts of people feeling suicidal, on multiple forums, and if there is one thing common, there is that people write there to let things off their chests. The last thing they want to hear when they're feeling blue is the cliche 'find a therapist.' If they were interested in that, they would not have written the post on the forum in the first place.

Also, the problem with therapy is that it 'works,' it like people think it does. Most stories on those forums were people tried therapy was not:

"Oh I went to a shrink, he listened to me, subscribed me a pill, and I'm feeling happy again!"

But rather:

"I went to a first shrink, he subscribed me meds that made me shiver all the time and unable to work. Then we change drugs, but those caused impotence, and that almost drove me to suicide. I changed shrinks and once again tried new drugs, but those made me unable to sleep. Now, I'm trying new drugs again, wish me luck..."

Unfortunately, psychiatry is still in its infancy - meds suck, and it takes YEARS to find something that MAY work (with all the lovely side effects). Add to that the very real possibility of landing in the loony bin for a while, and you got a nasty combination that makes you want to avoid the specialists at all costs.

As for the rest:

3. Going by those two questions, I want to return to the history I set up above. For some reason, it was acceptable of me to be direct and aggressive to the OP by the group members. When another person did this in a much lesser extent (to barely existent in my opinion) it was not acceptable, despite that being to the same OP. What do you believe caused this change? If you were present in both threads, why respond one way to one but not to another? What was the variable that changed?

Janie's answer got down-votes because of the style. Like it or not, but HOW you write a response matters. Gregory House was considered an ass even though he was right most of the time - same here. Janie may not have intended his/her post to sound like it, but the first answer did sound arrogant and patronizing . Of course, that doesn't explain the shitshow that happened later, but it was the flashpoint. I've read your answer from the 12th, and I don't see it on the same level because there was no 'stop whining and listen to me! I know better!' attitude.

And while what you say here is true:

[...]I do not, personally, believe that this is the sole path to reaching someone. Some people deal with better direct ways. Some people might need to be dealt with more direct ways. Heck, some people might need what is colloquially known as a "swift kick in the arse."[...]

I don't think this group is the right place to deliver those kicks. Encourage to change, give options - yes. Be blunt, and say 'stop whining and listen to me because I know better'? Nope...

4. Should we be critical of each other's attempt to help as users or should it be up to the mods to settle this? [...]

Yes, we should be critical, BUT only as long as we stay civil. When I see someone saying 'go see a therapist' and I find that absurd (for reasons stated above), I think I should be able to the point that out in a non-aggressive manner.

Mental health, from my own experiences, has many ups-and-downs based on a myriad of factors. Most notably could be the 'Nature / Nurture' along with all variables in which come into play before, during, and after a major life trauma.

My back story is that I was born with a disease that took the last of my eyesight over three years ago. During this time, I experienced varous traumas from people ignorant to how I was more than my eyesight, over 50 surgeries, being bullied and discriminated out of two jobs, a divorce, and may lose another job as a result of third party software my employer uses becoming less compatible with my screen reading software.

As you will notice, there is a whole host of moments here that were very tough times. However I have found the primary aid during all of these times has been the support of friends and family along with people you may have never met.

The problem is that, given how acclimated you are in dealing with trauma, the 'support system' may not be enough. This is where seeing your family doctor and discussing medicinal options comes in handy. Lots of prescriptions to help in managing anxiety and depression are very affordable. There is also the ability to, once you have regained your self-esteem and purpose to taper off the medication.

Another option to consider is how partaking in your interests can help quell the demons in your head. This one can be very tricky and, at times, add to the depression and anxiety due to how what may bring you comfort may be seen as 'taboo' / 'socially unacceptable'.

Over my years, I came to liking to wear diapers and seeing vibrantly-colored cartoon animals in diapers. I also like to write stories wherein the character feels a sense of 'security' from being in a youthful state wherein (s)he sees the world as 'rainbows and butterflies' instead of what real life is.

Now this means of comfort through cuteness is very often associated with pedophilia. So I was often unable to use padded undergarments to soothe myself. The first person I told about this was my, now, ex-wife and her reaction was horrid. Unfortunately, despite years-and-years of efforts to rid myself of this interest always failed, made me more miserable, and added upon my anxiety and depression as I wasn't just on a constant path to blindness but also had a 'kink' that disgusted the one I loved.

This leads me to when one may seek therapy. If you can't get enough support from family, friends, and people you may interact with on sites, like this one, and medication isn't achieving anything then a therapist is a good idea.

I had a botched surgery in 2011 that resulted in blood spilling into the back of my only working eye. It took over 3 months for what little vision I still had to clear up to where I wasn't seeing red, orange, and yellow. I was on a direct path to ending my life and going to a therapist is what saved me from that.

In 2012, another surgery gone wrong hospitalized me for over two weeks while totally blinding me for over six months. Six surgeries happened during this year and I was really in a bad place.

This is where I found pushing myself to write stories to help me get through each day. Even if it is not a story, I also found writing about my trials and tribulations helped me to have a 'sounding board' in which I was surprised to see how many people followed and read even to this day.

When writing your experiences, I have found just writing them out without overly concerning yourself with grammar, spelling, etc. to be most helpful. It makes the experience more stress-releasing as you are just 'getting it out'. I've often found some degree of serenity after doing such a journal as it does serve as a way to, in the least, self-validate your feelings.

So, in summary, it takes different combinations of assistance to cope with life struggles, trauma, etc. The goal one should always shoot for is 'self-validation' and 'self-esteem' as seeking it from others will never work. As my therapist told me during the 'legal' discrimination I had at my former employer, "You know what you've done and only you can take that away. Others can say you did, or did not, do something. However it is ultimately yourself who determines if you are going to retain the power, or give it to someone else.".

It took me some time to fully embrace the above advice. However it is quite liberating to take the power back over being at the mercy of others.

Ultimately it comes down to determination to make the best you that you can be. I've been developing my 'skills' since 2007, wherein I lost my ability to read with my own eye amongst other things. I am still coping with trials both old and new but, in the least, I can say that persistence towards optimizing your own sense of 'self-worth' has been the foundation for getting back up after being knocked down.

So, as you deal with life's troubles, know there will never be just one method that eternally solves the problem(s). You simply must adapt through building skills, a support system, and, most importantly, 'self-esteem'.

I have to say, I was hoping to see a meaningful discussion in this thread that could help and reshape this group for the better. The few posts here are nice, but I just wish we could do more. Please pardon me shamelessly bumping this thread.