anti-social community · 11:44pm Jun 17th, 2015
Hey girls and guys! I was wanting something a bit more interactive for my nuzlocke. I decided that it would be neat to migrate to Twitch for it, but a few problems arise. If I did plan on changing the project to a livestream, I'd have to start all over since, you know, it'd be weird to suddenly switch from posting videos on youtube to a livestream.
The other reason I'm debating whether I should or not is because basically nobody says anything in my videos and that got me thinking about my reception. I don't care how many views/likes/faves a story or a video has, what really matters is the comments, the people I make this shit for. I am an entertainer, and if nobody even bothers to say anything, then clearly they don't care and I have failed.
I don't count traffic as success, I count it as popularity which is something entirely different. I want people to respond. I want to talk to my fans, I want them to feel like they make a difference because they do. Across my tumblr blog, the comments here on fimfiction even to youtube... no comment or question gets ignored or goes unanswered. The problem is... nobody is being very social. Nobody is saying anything. If you people honestly like what I do and think it's good... then say so! Make your voice heard! If I can't see your comments, I can't tell if I'm drawing you or not. Since drawing others and bringing them entertainment is my whole purpose then if I fail... then I might as well stop.
I say time and time again that you guys should talk to me. You, the fans, are the reason I still continue anything I do on the public internet! If you guys don't want to even bother saying anything then there's no point. No reactions, no thoughts, no comments... no more stuff to talk about.
Yes, I am talking about cancelling Starlight in a Broken Vessel here. And the Nuzlocke. And everything else. I'm not even asking for money (though you can support me on Patreon if you want) but without people actively talking about what I give, not just having seen it, then I clearly fail to captivate you. Which means I'm doing a bad job. Rather than just try to fix this and change my story and content to appeal to the lowest common denominator... I'm just going to stop.
Here's the decision people: Use the megaphone I'm giving you (and have been giving you since the very beginning), or say nothing and watch as I start to just give up and stop doing anything.
Seriously. The community is what makes things grow. As bronies we should know that better than anyone.
And, of course, nobody responds to this post.
What's there to say? They're not good stories. Nobody talks about them because there's nothing meaningful to be talked about. I made a comment on Broken Vessel questioning why everyone in the story is behaving so irrationally and got a defensive "it gets better later, you don't have to read it" in response instead of a real answer. I'm actually not sure why I even have it on my To Read list anymore.
If you don't get as much feedback as you'd like, it's really your own fault.
3158831 Actually no, it's not my fault. I know how many followers I have. I can't force you guys to read it and if you don't want to read it you don't have to. But plenty of people do, but won't say anything. Not even to the effect of "Maybe try this?" or anything.
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that unless they start talking about it or at least saying things, even criticisms (but not hate or trolling that's different. I'm talking to you Realitycheck) but no. Nobody says anything. That means they don't want to. Also, you have a fair point. Maybe this isn't a good story. Maybe I should have had it end at chapter 30 like I planned and these two-hundred chapters are pointless and worthless emotional bullshit padding. That is fully possible. If so, then perhaps you are right and I should just pack up and leave the public web.
This is for the people to decide, and you, although a critic, are still part of that group and deserve to be heard.
3158702 Huh. I have 82 followers. That means at least 82 people are being alerted that if they don't say anything, the whole reason they follow me will go away completely...
*cricket noises*
Yeah... Really feeling the love, bronies.
3158876
Not terribly many, for a story with over half a million words, and yes it is. Take Handyman's "Bad Mondays" as a case example of how to do it better. It has nearly exactly the same amount of words, was started at pretty much the same time as yours and is twice as popular in about every sense - followers, upvotes, views, comments, etc. That's not in small part because Handyman is very active in his own comments, responds to questions in detail, gives explanations and is willing to listen and react to criticism of his story, instead of just acknowledging that it's there but basically brushing it off. And it actually helps a lot to make the story better.
So yes, if people don't give you feedback, it is because of you - because of the way you write the story and because of the way you deal with that feedback. I could have said more about the parts of the story that I've read, but after the first try? I didn't want to anymore.
3158917 ...you clearly don't check out the comments section. I've had full debates in detail about my main characters before. Also I don't compare myself to other authors because this entire thing is about entertaining the public, not a dick-measuring contest.
I write because writing is fun, but if nobody wants to see it, then I'll keep writing but never show it to anyone but my friends and family.
Comparing myself to other authors is a pointless argument because I'm not here for competition or to be the best author ever. I'm doing this for fun and to entertain. Nothing more. The other authors and their popularity mean nothing to me. My own popularity is nothing to me. I'm mainly talking about how many 'followers' I have and yet out of them, nobody says dick. Maybe you are right after all.
Yeah. In one week, if nobody says anything... you win. I take down my stories for good and leave Fimfiction. Deal?
3158943
You're the one who made this about follower counts, not me.
3158949 I edited my statement.
3158963
I have no investment in whether you stay or not, so don't make this about me. I don't say this out of any particular desire to see you leave. I was just giving you my impression of why people aren't as interested in communicating with you as they could be. Reacting to that with a hurt "fine, I'll take my ball and go home" is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
3158985 It's not that, really. It's that I'm trying to contribute... but a lack of other people taking part means I'm not contributing something interesting, something people want to think about, talk about, discuss, interact, be a community. And since that's my entire goal, and I seem to be failing at it, why keep going when I could find something much more productive to do?
I'm not saying I'm not at fault here, but my constant insistence that people should give their two cents always falling on deaf ears... definitely is unavoidable.
Okay, so they may not want to talk to me. Fine. The purpose is to talk about what I'm giving, to discuss amongst other readers if they want, to know that their voices will be heard. But in the end, nobody says anything. I am handing them freedom of speech on a platter and they are refusing it. That's my point. This isn't about me wanting more views or more traffic. This is about making something worth talking about. But empirical evidence shows that is not a very realistic goal anymore.
People don't talk. So there's no reason for me to stay. If my endeavors aren't influential, I'm going to find and do something that is.
3159108
Honestly, if you wanted to be productive, you wouldn't be writing fan fiction to begin with. What you should be here for is to write an interesting story and entertain people, because reading entertaining stories is what they are here for - not for you. A community just happens to form around that. If they like (or dislike) your story enough, then conversation, criticism and feedback will come all by themselves. How you then deal with that is up to you, but whatever your current approach is, I'd say it clearly doesn't work as well as you think it should.
Your idea that you are somehow entitled to being "influential" - and the corresponding attitude to people voting with their feet that you display here - probably has a lot to do with that.
3158917 luck also has a lot to do with that.
3159108 freedom of speech also includes the right to not speak, does it not? I enjoy your stories. This does not mean I should feel compelled to talk about it; in fact, the fact I do not feel compelled to talk about it quite so much could be taken as a good thing. It means I don't see a need to criticize, because as is I don't see an issue. I'm the kind of person, along with many others, who are, as wlam says, here for entertainment. If I particularly cared about socializing, I would go hang out with friends. But when I'm on this site it's not to socialize, it's to read. It's to be entertained. The was I see it, a lack of comments should be seen as a success, because I know many times I am so engrossed with the screen words I can't be bothered to stop and write something. And besides, even if no one responds, you shouldn't care so much. I'm all for optimism, I'm very optimistic myself, but going in expecting the world is just setting yourself up for dissapointment. A like is someone telling you that you should continue, but without the socialization. A follow/favorite even more so. Don't let a lack of verbal communication hurt you, but instead allow the nonverbal approval that you have received uplift you. A comment is nice. But to me a comment isn't all that special. Every person I make smile is a job well done, not just when they stop to chat. You want to influence others? Reading your stories makes me happy. That should make you happy. That's what you should strive for. Congrats, you influenced me into smiling. I hope this overdrawn comment brightens your day, pinkie is best pony, my English teacher would give this a D+, and I'm tired. Good night.
Well, to begin, it feels to me as though the plot of SiaBV is simply... Meandering. It does a really good job of switching from action to talking scenes and back again, but it feels to me as though it is taking a bit too long to get to the point and ascend to the climax of the story. The main part of a story that most readers want is to go through the adventure with the characters and face off against the main problem and/or antagonist at the climax, and then keep pace with the characters as the story calms (or not!) to a close. The story has great and realistic characters, amazing scene and tone switches, and good bit of worldbuilding, but the only part that I, personally, feel it is lacking in is getting through the rising action and into the climax, and then pass it so that the story can come to a close.
3159528
True. I am a big believer in the power of PR, though. Luck only gets you so far.
I have no idea what nuzlocke even is. If it is youtube related... that's probably why. I do not go youtube to often. When I do, I am usually looking for specific content, usually gaming based or tutorial for something gaming based like modding. There is only one person on there I go to see and that is because he was fired from the website I used to watch him at. In the same reference I hardly ever visit Twitch either. I am a horrible person to get a comment or perspective on since its not a big interest of mine. Sure I might pop over to either if a friend sends me a link to show me something, but that's about it.
As for the story here... you have 2.6k comments. How the hell is that people not commenting? That turns into 12 comments per chapter which is actually quite a bit more than a lot of the stories on this site, especially when you consider how short most of the chapters are.
And the biggest thing of all. It is only the vast minority of people that ever comment or go to forums on the internet. Most people use like (or dislike if available) as their voice, and some... ok probably a lot don't even do that and let their view be registered to speak for them.
3158893 After reading that comment, esp the last line... you do not understand the internet. Brony community or not, you do not understand the internet. Please refer to the last paragraph in my comment above.
A very good example is this. If I like a movie, I like a movie. I am not going to run around the internet to movie sites to announce my like. The simple fact that I showed up, paid for a ticket, and then didn't tell all my friends the movie was a piece of garbage is the best they can hope for. Was I entertained? Yes, but I won't be showing up to any discussion board about it, and I won't be trying to talk to the actor on the street about it.
3159656 Yes, that is very true. Luck will not be the thing to turn you into the next Penstroke. But if you sluff through the more ignored stories, you find a lot of really good ones not getting the love they deserve, stifled by the big ones and buried in the small ones. Luck may only get you so far, as with youtubers, but luck is almost always required to get your out of the pits. Speaking of really good and underrated stories, one of my personal favorites isOne Year by PonyFromSpace. His only goal seems to be to get his story to the internet.
3160073
I can certainly agree with that. I do try to promote stories like that when I see one, by putting them into groups where I think they'll get the exposure they deserve. Still not reading that one, though. It looks depressing as fuck.
3159323
Holy shit, you just shat on all of fanfiction here.
Seriously.
Why the hell you so down on fanfiction? 'Real' writing is an illusion, and it's purely a difference of 'sellable' and 'non-sellable' writing.
As well, you're saying that writers are supposed to work their art solely for others - in complete opposition to how art works. Artists don't make art for others, they make it of themselves because it's an expression.
What Pieman and I are looking for is some conversation. On many stories, people talk about how to improve a story, but the only comments of that kind we've seen are 'This story sucks' and 'nobody is being perfectly rational about everything'.
Well, the first one is a useless comment, because it tells us nothing, and the second one is also useless because nobody is totally rational all the time. The early parts of the story are in the midst of a sudden and confusing upheaval; Anthony does not conform to ponykind's views of 'good guys' or 'bad guys' and they don't have a very strong grasp of the concept of someone who isn't really either.
As well, Anthony isn't always rational because, as he's stated in the story, he's not a neurotypical human being. He should, honestly, be on medication to balance out his moods. If you haven't read down the line, you wouldn't have seen this, but he often misremembers conversations and events so that it seems less favorable for him. that's a flaw of his, but nobody seems to have picked it up; they just keep harping on how he's always being mean to the poor widdle ponies, and not bothering to look at the character.
3160178 it is.
3160228 He doesn't mean that the author should be a slave to the readers, in fact he probably understands quite well that art is and expression and writing is an art. But what he means is the reason the reader is there is to be entertained, they're not there for the author, but for themselves, selfish as that may seem.
3160228
Yes, I did, and I meant every word of it, too. To me, spending time here is a guilty pleasure, like junk food. Let's not delude ourselves, you won't find quality writing here, no matter how hard you look. I know good literature from bad, because I have actually read a decent fraction of the Western Canon, and even my most favourite stories here would rate around the level of a low-grade Harlequin romance if I was being reasonably objective about it.
However, I don't judge the community for that. Sometimes, this kind of entertaining schlock is just what you need to get through the day. That's certainly how it is for me. It's fun, it's easy to digest and it makes the afternoon pass that much more quickly. However, nobody here is a professional writer. Sellable? Yes, I suppose that matters - but so is the Twilight series, and nobody, not even the people actually selling it, would say that it's good literature for that.
Neither am I, but I am still not as big an asshole as he is. Also, I wasn't talking about him to begin with. I was talking about everybody else for putting up with him, instead of strangling the overpowered, sociopathic abomination in its sleep like any sane civilization would. I don't mind asshole characters, I just mind Jerk Sues.
3160264
Absolutely.
3160267
So you're saying that this has no redeeming value?
Then I have to say you're an ignorant boob. Most of the major authors I know and like either started in or happen to prefer writing fanfiction.
I have found many stories that far more deeply explore ideas than any published novel, because every published novel has to make money; otherwise, it's a failure. All a fanfiction needs is to make somebody happy.
No, you're thinking like any human civilization would. As well, you're confusing the concept of instant karma for realistic retribution. As you've obviously not bothered to read the story, you haven't seen that Celestia doesn't trust him, constantly sending messages about him needing to be careful not to fall into the dark side. Luna thinks he's lashing out because he's going the same path she did. Twilight only puts up with him because she's obsessed with having friends and keeping them. Spike likes him because he's the only 'bro' character in sight. Fluttershy is a little scared of him. Dash likes him because he'll brawl with her verbally, something that isn't shared by any other ponies in Ponyville. Rarity doesn't like him, but she's polite enough to fake it. Pinkie's infatuated with him, and likes his sense of humor, because it's different. AJ actually doesn't like him, but took a bit of a shine to him because she recognizes a fellow orphan. After all, he's lost his entire family, whom he cared about (except his sister) greatly.
And they all get their digs in. It may not be obvious, but they aren't an overtly aggressive race.
One of the biggest problems I have with so many people is that they always treat the ponies as perfectly human, just pony-shaped, which makes exactly 0% sense.
3160264
Sure, but an author cannot improve without feedback, and none of these readers provide actual feedback, just opinions or complaints, which are not the same thing.
3160412
Lovely for them. Too bad that the reverse isn't true: the vast, vast majority of fanfiction authors I know do not become professional authors - and I am, in fact, on speaking terms with a few of the latter, even if none of them are famous. Truth to be speaking, most of them are professional writers of porn, but still.
And no, that isn't what I said.
3160413
As an author, that is the best you can expect and more than you are owed. There is nothing except opinions to be given. If that isn't enough for you, you don't understand writing.
I've read enough.
Goodbye.
3160562
Is it wrong of me to find this deeply amusing? Here is everyone, talking with you and about you and your story, and what do you do? Decide you've "read enough" and run off whining, because they didn't say the things you wanted to hear. Just like you do when people criticize your actual stories. Still wondering why I didn't bother trying twice?
3160743
Do you have any ability to do anything other than be rude and bully? You've done nothing but insult writing as a whole, act like an ass, and insist you don't even read the story - so why do you insist on commenting on something you've apparently taken great pains to avoid?
3160890
Because I still had it on my read list - after reading enough of it to decide I didn't like it - and the blog post popped up on my newsfeed. And no, I am not bullying anyone. What I said was my completely, 100% genuine and honest opinion of the situation. Some of it was harsh, but I would have said the same thing to anyone else and wouldn't expect anything less if it was about me instead. If you feel personally insulted by what I said then it reflects more on you than on me, because all of it applies to me equally.
And yes, if someone runs off in a huff after loudly announcing "he'll give it a week" and after I've already pointed out how immature and childish this kind of "taking your ball and going home" reaction is? While people are giving him exactly what he asked for, which is feedback, positive or negative? Then I do reserve the right to find that comical. I have nothing but contempt for pouting and overentitled self-pity.
3160890
I find my conversation with him was very polite pleasant. I enjoyed it. But this whole blog post sounds, and keep in mind I have nothing against you or pieman, whiny. It's assuming that you're entitled to something that you arent. It's assuming we, as the readers, owe you something.
He didn't insult writing as a whole. He said fan fiction is not as high quality as sold books. Which is true. In a book that is sold, it goes through edit after edit after edit by educated and paid people, aka professionals. In fanfiction it might be edited a few times by amateurs. And while some of the things he has said are rude, it is unfair to say he was only being rude.
Good question. I'm curious now as well.
3161040
Of course he was cordial to you, you aren't the party he's seeking to pick on at this point. As for being 'whiny', well I can't say one way or another; I'm too close to the event at hand. As for entitlement, no. We're asking, and someone came up and (metaphorically, not literally) called us little shits who should get a real job and expected us to take it as a gracious gift from a superior being.
Then the same would be true of Indie games, or, indeed, any game produced way back in the era of of the original Nintendo, Atari, or even the games on the old Commodore series. They weren't professional at that point; they were a largely untested area at the time. Most of them had crews in the size range of 1-6 people, and Indie games are still made by 1-6 people in many cases. Fanfiction is a foundation, a base soil from which to grow into something greater. That can't be done with people coming by and attacking the sprouts as they form, stating that it'll never be anything.
3160942
So if you don't like it, why is it still on your readlist? Why not take it off and be done with it? Unless you planned on going and raining on our parade when you felt the need to balloon your ego.
And calling someone a rank amateur (which was implied by your choice of phrase) is still an opinion, honest or not, and it can still hurt. Pieman's a new writer, and is trying to get better. By constantly providing 'and you suck' bullet points, you're doing nothing but attack him, which is bullying.
Except you wouldn't. Unless you're a genuinely awful person, you wouldn't tell a kindergartner that their macaroni art is shit because it's not as good as the Mona Lisa. You wouldn't tell a first time gamer that they should quit playing because they don't even know the controls yet. So why are you kicking a brand new writer to the ground and stepping on his metaphorical throat? You're not being harsh with your commentary, you're being vicious.
The fact that you just said that shows how little you know of sociology or psychology. If you say something inflammatory, and then admit you have no idea what you're talking about, i.e. criticizing a story for not immediately retaliating against a character for their indiscretions and then saying you haven't actually read the whole damn story to see if that's true, then yes, we the authors are going to get really angry and honestly upset that you're going to go and smack down something you've barely glanced at.
Huh, did you ever stop and think that the fact that the author said that the main character is a self-insert and happens to be mentally challenged might have something to do with that? Oh wait, you didn't stay around long enough to hear anything about the character, just long enough to stick your nose in the air in case it stinks.
And if you notice, you're the only person he reacted to like that, because everyone was at least polite with their criticism.
And I have nothing but contempt for pompous, self-inflated buffoons who take joy in tearing down someone else's self esteem to feel good about themselves.
3161040
I am easily bored and suffer from chronic insomnia. I also have a bad habit of getting into silly arguments when I should really know better.
Just because I disliked something doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on it. I did read about 50 chapters before I gave up on the story, after all.
3161289
God, you are insufferably self-important. It's because I use it to bookmark everything that catches my attention somehow and don't clean up very often. I currently have 1087 unread chapters. I don't even know what most of that even consists of anymore.
This is an unfair comparison. It's assumed that the author would be mature enough to understand that their macaroni art isn't as good as the Mona lisa. Also, the gamer in question evidently does know the controls, and has shown to be quite skilled at the game.
I fail to see how this is self-important. Was the last part rude? Yes. Self important? No
3161342
The idea that I have nothing better to do than to stalk random stories on the off-chance that there will be an occasion to ruin someone's day sounds pretty self-important to me. It kind of assumes a lot about how invested I am in how much fun other people have.
3161356 but it's still not putting himself as the most important thing.
3161366
It is kind of implicit in the "our parade."
3161356
3161289
Look, I'm trying to not take sides, but I feel like whatever I do at this point is taking sides. Almost this entire blog post and especially the replies, myself not being excluded from this, are very unprofessional. As such I think I'm going to sit the rest of this out.
3161374
Don't worry on my behalf. I was really just rolling my eyes at how silly that idea is. I have no strong feelings about it.
Considering that nobody here is a professional, it's probably the wrong thing to expect in any case, though. Do remember that this is a place for hobbyists.
3161388 thank you. I'm one of those people that hates the idea of lying, feels dirty at the thought of twisting the truth, and feels like they just poured fresh battery acid down their throat whenever they feel like they insulted someone. But you can just call me goody two-shoes, a result of getting spanked as a child.
3161325
No, I just assumed you'd do what I do - actually read the things on your read list. I mean, that's the point of a read-list.
Also,
That's your excuse? You got bored, so you decided to troll someone?
3161388
As well, you said that nobody here is a professional, while that's patently untrue. Wanderer D, one of the biggest writers on the site, is a professional writer. Obsolescence is a professional editor. As in, they get paid to do that.
And unless you're going to say that 'hobbyist' means that someone can't be really good at their work (at which point I'd like to point you at literally every well-painted War40k army ever that wasn't painted by Games workshop staff, and even they all started as hobbyists) which are truly great. Van Gogh was a 'piddling poor artist' who wasn't a professional - his works were only considered great after he died.
Seriously, fanfiction is a foundation, but pissing on the wild roses 'cuz they aren't million-dollar cultures is a terrible way to appreciate beauty found anywhere else but in the spotlight.
3163134 Ahem... "Clark".
(Referring to wlam)
Yes he's shitting on everyone on the site, but he's still allowed to say whatever he wants. You may be my editor but if you think he's being a troll then stop feeding him.
3163134
I think there is nothing quite as annoying as people who call every opinion they don't like "trolling," as if it was some kind of deadbeat argument that automatically invalidates all criticism. Because clearly nobody would ever disagree with you on anything, except out of petty spitefulness.
3163273
I've already handled it.
3163282
Fair enough.
3163201
Alright. I'm done then.
dude your work is awsome.im really sorry to hear your stopping. It takes a lot of work to make a 250+ chapter fim that reads as good as starlight. While we cant force you im pretty sure a lot of your fans would love to see you continue on these two projects (I really liked reading redshift) All the same your work is awsome. Think of it more as silent approval.
3169537 silent being the keyword. I don't want a silent audience, I want one that can express itself! That can speak their mind, that is willing to give their two cents in, even if they are just 'one person'.
This is the internet, I recieve everything via text. A silent response ay as well be a non-existant response, leading me to believe that, while I have plenty of likes, faves and followers, nobody really wants to say anything, and the only reason for this would be because they don't care.
See my logic here? I can't assume anything because again, this is the internet where nobody is the same and I can't just assume that because three people comment regularly, that everyone reads the chapters thinks it's great unless they say something directly.
Your "silent approval" is the entire reason the story was taken down in the first place.
I really did enjoy starlight in a broken vessel and the only reason why I didn't comment on the story was because I started about a week and a half before it was taken down so I wanted to catch up on the story before I commented on it and I still didn't get to the end. I understand your reasoning for stopping it. I just hope I get to see more from you and I wanted to let you know I really enjoyed reading that story.
3190473 Well... discussions with my editor about the story are already under way. I understand that the first parts were very lacking and so we'll be revising it basically starting fresh. If I do post the story it would likely be that version, with some problems fixed and unnecessary bits culled or straight out removed.
Think of it as a "Revised Starlight" deal.
I'm not saying that I'm bringing it back, I'm saying I'm rewriting it and I'll decide if I want to put it up here afterwards.
OK thank you for telling me. And I don't mind if it doesn't come back