Hazbin Hotel Episode 1 - I'm not sure I'm going to keep watching. · 10:30pm January 20th
So, after however many years, we finally get Hazbin Hotel. I've been waiting for it to come out since I saw the pilot. When the first episode dropped, I watched it before checking out any reviews or commentary, because I wanted to go in without any preconceptions clouding my view of the series.
And honestly, I'm not sure I'm going to keep watching.
This makes me sad, because I was looking forward to it. I've been enjoying the sister series Helluva Boss whenever Spindlehorse drops a new episode. Unfortunately, there are a few plot and world building choices that kinda just killed it for me. Spoiler tags from now on in case anyone's planning to watch the show.
Okay. I really don't care for how they handled the angels and heaven. When we first meet them, they're as just as awful, if not worse, than the demons. There's no pretense of goodness or virtue. I get that they're supposed to be an antagonistic force, but the whole premise of the show was pitched as "the angels are doing a necessary evil because of overpopulation in hell." That's an interesting external threat, and one that Charlie's plan to help sinners find redemption and earn a place in heaven actually makes sense in. But instead, we are straight up told, by the lead angel in charge of the exterminations, that the angels aren't doing it for noble reasons. They're doing it because they enjoy slaughtering demons, want to maintain power, and that the demons can never escape hell. That kills the entire promise of the story. And the fact that Charlie is still going through with the Hotel makes her look dumb because she's been told it will not work by the very beings that hold the keys to the proverbial castle.
Now, how could it have been handled better? By sticking to the original story's promise. Have Charlie meet with the head exterminator angel, but rather than make him a total asshole, have him honestly hear her out. Even have the exterminator support her idea because they don't like having to destroy human souls, but do it out of genuine necessity. Or Gaia, even if he is an ass, have another, higher ranked angel with him who's willing to hear Charlie out and convince the exterminators to make a deal with her. Regardless of the how, the deal goes like this: if she can get honest repentance from a single soul within a year, they will allow that soul into heaven. This will both vindicate Charlie's idea, proving her right and giving the people in tangible reason to earn redemption. That gives her not only a ticking clock, but an end goal to work towards. It also sets up an interesting conflict, because the deal is for honest repentance, rather than lip service.
There's other things about it that salinate me a bit, but I think I've said enough for now.
I'm not even bothering. I enjoyed the pilot, and season 1 of Helluva Boss, but after all the time since those dropped, all the shit that's come out about how Vivzie treats her employees, and the further shit about them dropping all the VAs, I just don't care anymore. :C
Love that line about salination though. XD
A shame. I really like Helluva Boss too. Blitz and the crew are surprisingly complex and well fleshed out characters with complicated backgrounds and problems.
Im gonna try for Alastor. It is very jarring how they handled a lot of things. I waited too long not to watch the whole thing and evaluate though.
I'm 90% watching it for the songs, to be honest.
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I stay away from most social media, so I was unaware of any behind the scenes issues. I may have to look into it. If it's true, I may not keep watching HB.
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It is. The premise was so good, but they borked it.
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Hey, go for it. Just because I don't like a thing doesn't mean you can't like it.
That said, after I watched the first episode and decided I didn't care anymore about spoilers, I watched Sarcastic Chorus's review of Eps 1-4. Usually he and I share opinions on Helluva Boss episodes, so I figured he'd be a good gauge if the series improves. Lets just say after what he described, I'm even more certain now that I'm not going to watch the show. I've long ago mostly broken my sunk cost fallacy connection to media. The moment I stop enjoying something, it's out.
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I admit, the music is catchy and well done. It's one of biggest positives in the first episode. Its just not enough to save it for me. But don't let my disillusionment with it dissuade you from liking it. Like what you like, and support what you want to support.
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Oh yeah so far I've watched 2 episodes and they're not great. I'm a gacha player so sunk cost fallacy is my life.
Whew. Just watched episode 3. Can safely say the shows quality is pretty low, at least imo. Helluva is so much better in pretty much every way.
I suppose I've got to be the odd one out and disagree.
I've certainly got my problems with Hazbin. Namely they lie in Vivzie's eternal issue of not having patience with her own story. The plot is too rushed, with little room to breathe or for developments to feel natural.
This is the same problem I had with Helluva. It surprises me people aren't satisfied with the quality of Hazbin when HB is basically the same. In some instances I'd argue it's worse (see: Blitz and Stolas' rushed and hamfisted narrative, Stella being not only one-dimensional like Adam but unlike him not enjoyable to watch, Moxxie's character being turned into a constant slapstick punching bag, and Millie being boiled down to 'southern girl who what loves Moxxie and kills people good'.
In either case, someone needs to be in the room with Viv who can tell her "No, but". Brandon helps to a certain degree, but I think he's mostly a "Yes, and" person. Creativity needs limitations and outside perspectives and I get the feeling those aren't things Viv is particularly interested in.
Nonetheless, I think Hazbin as a piece of media is incredibly important. However flawed it may bee, showing support to independent creators making it big helps other - and hopefully more competent - artists reach for the same in the future.
Now, after all that waffling. On to my point of actual disagreement.
I feel like you're somewhat missing the point. Heaven was never meant to be a moral contrast to Hell, but rather a comparison. The fact Adam is a foul-mouthed, misogynistic, dudebro d-bag is there to illustrate the fact Heaven and their Angels are no better than Hell and its demonic denizens.
I'd argue they're worse, personally. I wouldn't be surprised myself if we see at least one defector/turncoat in the Exorcists, who finally recognize what they're doing is wrong. Because honestly, that's the only thing the Exorcists or any of Heaven's people can do: realize that what they're doing is wrong.
Because it's, y'know. Literal yearly genocide. You don't just 'talk' that kind of thing out, and try to get the person genociding you to 'see the immorality' in their actions.
I'd get into more things, like what I think the ultimate point of the show is going to be, or at least the direction I hope it takes, but all of that is me writing for the writers and imagining stuff myself.
TL;DR on my main point of what we know:
1. The overpopulation justification wasn't retconned. Charlie directly mentions it in Hell is Forever.
2. It doesn't contradict oppressing sinners to prevent an uprise. They work together.
3. I think there probably will be some moral complexity introduced as time goes on. Let me explain.
The (granted, far too long and hamfisted) exposition dump in Episode 1 is effectively a fairytale, told from an incredibly one-sided perspective. You could argue this is me writing for the writers, but I think the show gives me plenty to back up my point. Compare the Lucifer and Lilith from Charlie's story to what we know of them in the current narrative. From implied dialogue, Lucifer is an asshole who thinks his daughter is a failure (see: the pilot). Lilith, meanwhile, has been absent for 7 years without even trying to keep in touch with her daughter. It kinda feeds into the whole vibe of Hazbin about highlighting both the good and evil that exists in everyone.
And 4. Genocide is genocide. You can't gloss over something like that. Whether there are people on the oppressing side who believe it's wrong or right is one thing, but I think Adam is perfect as a 'Heavenly' villain. He's a pompous, arrogant, self-righteous prick who views the world in black and white (literally from his song's lyrics) and believes that once you've earned your spot, you've earned it. No getting out.
Or in other words? Like a lot of hyper-religious freaks in the real world.
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Y'know, that's well said, and fundamentally, I don't disagree. Again, I think my issue is that there's an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance happening in the first episode regarding the morality (or lack there of) with the angels.
Again, the genocide thing? I shouldn't have to say it, but I'm 100% on board with you. Where my problem comes is just how blatantly evil and sadistic they make Adam and the angels. Especially Adam, who's every negative male stereotype cranked up to 100 and thrown into a super powered monster, who is ostensibly supposed to be a being on the side of good. It feels amateurish. I'm not an Abrihamic scholar or even practitioner, so I can't speak on a phylosophical level about any of this, but even if the angels are evil, making it so blatant and over the top just rubs me the wrong way. I think a Thanos-like zealot might have made for a better villain in this case. He's evil. We know he's evil. But he puts on the airs of being good, even if it comes across as "holier than thou" and honestly believes what he's doing is right.
Or even go a completely different route and make the exterminators non-sentient, where they're not people but a force of nature more akin to an immune response to the accumulation of evil in Hell. In that situation, have Charlie meet with the non-exterminator angels, and they try to work towards a solution with the Hotel being a test case. Maybe even have them explain that the reason that the exterminators manifest is because the evil in hell is like a cancer on creation, and if left unchecked will cause creation to collapse. And the only reason Lucifer and Lilith haven't reached out to find an alternative solution is their pride is getting in their way.
Something. Anything other than another "world of jerkass" style story.
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Oh, for the most part I can agree. When everyone feels like an asshole, no one does.
Sometimes that can make certain characters stand out more, like Charlie, Stolas, Vaggy, and Moxxie. The same goes for character moments, in which an asshole fixes their shit )however briefly before inevitably repeating the same lesson again later on).
It's a double-edged sword though, because it can make the villains... hard to take seriously. Enjoyable? Yes. But hard to take seriously. At least with Adam, he told us the stakes of his plans are to wipe out the entire sinners' population, which helps somewhat with making him feel like a genuine threat.
I think in general the show could use some grounding - more believability generally translates to better relatability. That's my preference anyway, for telling a semi-serious narrative. And there are moments so far where we get that, they just feel unearned because they come too quickly (looking at you Episodes 3 and 4).
With the exception of some things from Seasons 3 and 4 and the godawful finale, I think it's a balance Star vs. the Forces of Evil struck very well. The show takes its time with the characters, lets us kinda splash in the comedy pool for a while, before suddenly dunking you in an ice bath of serious narrative. Viv just kinda throws us back and forth and expects us to care when we really haven't known these characters for very long. That again circles back around to my main issue with her writing - the preference of instant gratification over a carefully paced, meticulously arranged series of events ala ATLA or Gravity Falls. And, hell I'll say it, even Steven Universe did it better. If nothing else, the filler helps space things out.
I'm still enjoying myself at least. I'll continue watching for now, but if it ever gets to be too much I'll ditch it like I did HB, or (in a far, far worse and infinitely more disappointing case) G5.
Anyway, sorry for the second consecutive essay in a row. I've had so many thoughts about this show and Vivzie's writing work as a whole and I don't have many people I can yap to about it lmao.
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You don't have to apologize for the essays, because I enjoy hearing other perspectives, especially if they're presented respectfully and logically. I am so accustomed to discourse deteriorating to "you don't agree with me so you're a [insert pejorative]" that just being able to express myself without being ripped apart is so damn refreshing.
I understand the criticism people have for the show but I am still having a great time watching it. Is it rushed? Yes, but its still a beautifully animated and fun ride. I am Very much looking forward to the next batch of episodes.
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And I'm glad that you are. Just because I'm out doesn't mean that I think you or anyone else should be. Agree to disagree, enjoy what you enjoy, etc. I mean, isn't that the point of entertainment? To entertain? If you're entertained, then I'm not going to try taking that from you, nor should I.
While I did enjoy the show, and it does show some more positive angels later it was a little strange to see some Angels with that personality. Though one could say their personalities match that of Crusaders
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I can see the Crusader thing. I think what really put me off was just how evil they made him. He could still be a bastard, but it could have been handled with a bit more subtlety or nuance. I'm fine with pure evil villians, but when one of them is an angel, a being meant to embody good and virtue? That's too much cognitive dissonance.