(see what I did there?) Celestia came to me, and the resulting argument had unintended, painful consequences. I had done wrong...but I worked to right the wrongs.
I'm sorry if I let my emotions run away with my response, I shouldn't have done it that way. Let me try again.
To start off Twilight professes her love for Celestia, but when Celestia gets too frisky Twilight does a 180 and immediately stops liking her. Celestia may have gone too far, but she did stop. Twilight's reaction seems far too drastic; she never even tries to patch things up, which seems very out of character for the professed strength of her love. There seems to be no reason for Twilight's reaction.
Celestia's use of criminal punishment in response to being rejected also seems too strong a reaction, even if distress is a valid reason for lashing out. That Twilight remains unrepentant is particularly strange given how much she said she loved Celestia.
Twilight almost immediately swears loyalty to Nightmare Moon, which seems horribly out of character. Nightmare Moon is known as the antithesis of Celestia, but Twilight trusts her immediately and without proof despite NMM being known as very evil. I get it that Twilight is angry at her punishment, but she essentially switches sides at the drop of a hat for no reason. That she then starts training to fight Celestia and falls in love with NMM. She never even questions her choices which shows a very distinct lack of consideration for Celestia. Once again I feel I need to mention that Twilight said she loved Celestia, but she's not behaving like it.
Twilight and NMM have a sex scene, but you never explain why she wis more comfortable being intimate with NMM than with Celestia. This is a huge plot hole.
Twilight finds Rainbow's corpse and immediately blames Celestia even though there is no proof. Also, why would Celestia kill Rainbow? So far she has done everything to avoid such things; Nightmare Moon wasn't executed.
Finally, the fight scene. Evedn if Celestia doesn't die, Twilight is clearly still trying to kill her. And it's not just kill, she's all for torturing Celestia horribly. The story hasn't justified that amount of cruelty.
What it comes down to is that every character's actions not only lack in-story justification (some even contradict previous actions), they also go against the established character personalities. Currently the best motivation I can think of it NMM is controlling Twilight's mind, but that still doesn't explain the first chapter. Given the complete lack of justification it seems like one of two things is happening. One - you have a plan and are rewriting the characters for each scene you want to include as those scenes come up. Two - you have all the details but are simply leaving them implied, which only confuses readers. Neither of these approaches will provide for a atisfactory reading experience. In the end the thing you really need to do is write a lot more about how the characters come to and justify to themselves such drastic decisions, because right now this just reads as Celestia-bashing for the sake of bashing Celestia.
The fact that people are this happy with Celestia-bashing is severely upsetting.
Okay, now that we have this list, I shall attempt to appease each point in a way that makes sense.
1. You say I made Twilight instantly dislike Celestia for her advances. I never put that into the story. She didn't start hating Celestia until she had been sent to the moon. You also state that their reactions to what was going on were very drastic. I think Twilight was completely justified in defying Celestia, for, in her eyes, at the time, Celestia was a rapist monster. Finally, later in the story, she realizes she never loved Celestia in the right way, when she finds that she does love Nightmare Moon in that manner.
2. I'm inclined to disagree on Celestia's side, as well, as she is used to ponies begging for her in marriage, a tryst, et cetera. So, she has been sheltered from rejection her entire life, thus, breaking down when it finally happens. Twilight remains unrepentant for above reasoning, she's still a rapist monster.
3. She swears loyalty? Not exactly. She promises, as an equal, to help her in her task of bringing about eternal night. Close, but not the same thing. It's just a matter of coping with the pain. This is a new area of Twilight to explore, as nothing close to this ever happens. Leaving a canon-free mold. Nightmare Moon is painted as evil, but after the path this story has taken, I wouldn't be surprised if she championed Nightmare Moon's regime, trying to twist people's way of looking at her away from hate. Antithesis is a strong word, I would go as far as a foil as far as their desires, and no further. Drop of a hat...Hmm, no. She is undergoing slight disembodiment, saying things she didn't tell herself to say, et cetera, in that period. She even shied away from herself internally when she said things like that. Lack of consideration because Twilight's narrow-minded, and is looking at the world in a very polarized black and white at this point. Nightmare Moon, however, is white, and Celestia is black. Her moral compass was screwed like a slut when Celestia did what she did. Again, I'll address that Twilight finds her love for Celestia didn't stretch to romantic like she thought it did.
4. It was more of her coping with the loss of Celestia still, coupled with the fact that Nightmare Moon was 20 bajillion times more gentle. Remember, Celestia went straight for the marehood, while Nightmare Moon attempted to make her feel comfortable with it first.
5. Rainbow's death could easily be linked to the fact that she wasn't there for her when needed most. She was sent away by Celestia, so yes, it could be linked. And, in my opinion, by now Celestia would be playing the part of an iron fist, tearing Equestria apart at the seams by inflicting her own misery upon it.
6. What fight scene? You mean the torture part? Yes, I did paint it that Twilight wanted Celestia dead, but of course, she's still used to the moon, and messes up. The torture was so Twilight could work out her frustration and pain somehow, and actually targeting the pony that had hurt her seemed the best way to do it.
As for whether I'm just Celestia-bashing, maybe a little. I like reversing the palate a bit sometimes. I did think about overinternalizing the torture chapter, but felt it would lead to a boring reading experience. So, I left it as is. Anyway, I hope this answered most, if not all, of your questions and statements adequately.
I don't know why I like it, but ripping Twilight from her friends appeals to me as a story idea. As both this story and my other one have used it, however, I'll probably abandon that for a while after these are done.
LES DO DIS. LEROYYYY! Aa JENKIIIIIIINSSSsss!!!......Oh ma Gawd he just ran in. !LoL! When I read this comment:*Buckles up and lowers sunglasses* LETS DO THIS!!! that was all I could think of. !LoL! 2486713
1 - I disagree, Twilight almost instantly showed dislike for Celestia, though it's understandable given how Celestia was pushing so hard:
Her face brooked no reply, and I gave none, a defiant glare in my eyes.
and she hated Celestia before being sent to the moon:
I almost screamed at her, showing flat defiance to everything she stood for. I was now her enemy.
Twilight doesn't appear to have even tried to resolve the situation peaceably; throwing away an entire life's worth of trust and friendship.
2 - Celestia charges Twilight with:
...heresy and treason against the fair land of Equestria.
For refusing her advances? Telling her to get out and never come back? Sure. Banishing her to the moon for imaginary crimes? Once again there's not enough justification for Celestia being so callous. And Celestia is not a rapist monster. She never did that. She got carried away, and got too close, but she still stopped well short of actual rape. Celestia also doesn't appear to have tried to resolve the situation peaceably; throwing away an entire life's worth of trust and friendship.
Both numbers 1 and 2 seem horribly out of character, especially the complete disregard for their previous relationship.
3 -
It sounded as though she wanted a pledge of my loyalty to her.
"Yes. I would like nothing more than to aid you in bringing your beautiful night eternal to Equestria," I smiled as I spoke.
If she's not immediately swearing loyalty, then that point needs to be a lot more clear. Also, Twilight too quickly throws away anything and everything she's ever learned about Nightmare Moon by declaring for NMM's goals. Celestia at least kept the day/night cycle; eternal night seems like a step in the wrong direction for everything. Twilight being won over could cover an entire arc; it should not take less than 3 paragraphs (at the drop of a hat).
4 - An extra minute spent playing touchy-feely is not enough to justify the differences in outcome. Sex is still sex, and it happened far too fast given how badly Twilight's last experience went. Celestia had years building her relationship to the point where she felt comfortable. NMM? Not nearly the same amount of time/effort. So why is Twilight more in to NMM than Celestia? The story doesn't cover that.
5 - No.
Somehow, she had something to do with Dashie's death, and she would pay.
Not one piece of evidence was given, but Twilight thinks Celestia is at fault. Celestia never tries to patch things up with the pony she loves AND now she's gone fully Tyrantlestia? Why? There's so little explanation for why she throws away the entirety of her show-based personality. It's like reading a NLR/SE story.
6 - My point about the torture scene still stands though. Yes, she's lashing out. But she's doing it in such an uncharacteristically cruel and out of character way that more lead-in explanation is necessary if you want us to believe this is Twilight Sparkle. So as is, this isn't Twilight Sparkle. This is just some cliche horrible monster that was labeled Twilight Sparkle.
And the key thing that needs to happen, especially after all this discussion, is to not leave it at that. Stories are not told through footnotes. If you are going to elaborate on these points to make them better, then do it in your story.
...heresy and treason against the fair land of Equestria.
For refusing her advances? Telling her to get out and never come back? Sure. Banishing her to the moon for imaginary crimes? Once again there's not enough justification for Celestia being so callous. And Celestia is not a rapist monster. She never did that. She got carried away, and got too close, but she still stopped well short of actual rape. Celestia also doesn't appear to have tried to resolve the situation peaceably; throwing away an entire life's worth of trust and friendship.
Both numbers 1 and 2 seem horribly out of character, especially the complete disregard for their previous relationship.
Silly Shachza Everyone knows that Celestia has problems, in this story she happens to have more problems and be a sociopath. Wait never mind she is a sicio in most stories
I'm going to solve all of this by admitting I'm wrong, and explaining how I know I'm wrong.
This is simply me being frustrated with everypony's stories pursuing a similar way of thinking, yet in the end, they somehow redeem Twilight, Nightmare Moon's still evil, et cetera. I wanted to take away from that. The best way to me, was to find a way to subvert Twilight into a villain by aiding Nightmare Moon, but make Nightmare Moon herself into a good character. So, yes, I am not following canon what so ever, for all intents and purposes. That settle the matter for ya?
Also, threw away Twi/Celly's friendship on principle to start the story. Wanted something with a lot of attention grabbing shit in it.
And one more thing. Defying someone for their principles (or what they stand for), doesn't mean you hate the person. You just have some fundamental differences of opinion right now.
Just out of interest, do you plan on having lots of clop or are you going to focus on the storyline more?
2485885
Yeah, I'll resolve that in a while.
2486014
It's going to be more plot-oriented. However, I do plan on the clop being a recurring theme. So, about 60% story, 10% clop, and 30% dark-themed stuff.
too much squee from jbgvmnbvjfsb 6tgytfgrthygys
2486199
Umm, what?
2486286
Why thank you. I killed off Rainbow for the sake of plot progression. Dashie being alive caused more problems for me than it helped.
2486364
I don't get it.
2486465
Meh. It was supposed to look the same, from an ironic point of view.
its going good though i think that it could be a little darker
2485189
I'm sorry if I let my emotions run away with my response, I shouldn't have done it that way. Let me try again.
To start off Twilight professes her love for Celestia, but when Celestia gets too frisky Twilight does a 180 and immediately stops liking her. Celestia may have gone too far, but she did stop. Twilight's reaction seems far too drastic; she never even tries to patch things up, which seems very out of character for the professed strength of her love. There seems to be no reason for Twilight's reaction.
Celestia's use of criminal punishment in response to being rejected also seems too strong a reaction, even if distress is a valid reason for lashing out. That Twilight remains unrepentant is particularly strange given how much she said she loved Celestia.
Twilight almost immediately swears loyalty to Nightmare Moon, which seems horribly out of character. Nightmare Moon is known as the antithesis of Celestia, but Twilight trusts her immediately and without proof despite NMM being known as very evil. I get it that Twilight is angry at her punishment, but she essentially switches sides at the drop of a hat for no reason. That she then starts training to fight Celestia and falls in love with NMM. She never even questions her choices which shows a very distinct lack of consideration for Celestia. Once again I feel I need to mention that Twilight said she loved Celestia, but she's not behaving like it.
Twilight and NMM have a sex scene, but you never explain why she wis more comfortable being intimate with NMM than with Celestia. This is a huge plot hole.
Twilight finds Rainbow's corpse and immediately blames Celestia even though there is no proof. Also, why would Celestia kill Rainbow? So far she has done everything to avoid such things; Nightmare Moon wasn't executed.
Finally, the fight scene. Evedn if Celestia doesn't die, Twilight is clearly still trying to kill her. And it's not just kill, she's all for torturing Celestia horribly. The story hasn't justified that amount of cruelty.
What it comes down to is that every character's actions not only lack in-story justification (some even contradict previous actions), they also go against the established character personalities. Currently the best motivation I can think of it NMM is controlling Twilight's mind, but that still doesn't explain the first chapter. Given the complete lack of justification it seems like one of two things is happening. One - you have a plan and are rewriting the characters for each scene you want to include as those scenes come up. Two - you have all the details but are simply leaving them implied, which only confuses readers. Neither of these approaches will provide for a atisfactory reading experience. In the end the thing you really need to do is write a lot more about how the characters come to and justify to themselves such drastic decisions, because right now this just reads as Celestia-bashing for the sake of bashing Celestia.
The fact that people are this happy with Celestia-bashing is severely upsetting.
Can't say I don't want Twilight to fail. Horribly, horribly so.
2486581
Okay, now that we have this list, I shall attempt to appease each point in a way that makes sense.
1. You say I made Twilight instantly dislike Celestia for her advances. I never put that into the story. She didn't start hating Celestia until she had been sent to the moon. You also state that their reactions to what was going on were very drastic. I think Twilight was completely justified in defying Celestia, for, in her eyes, at the time, Celestia was a rapist monster. Finally, later in the story, she realizes she never loved Celestia in the right way, when she finds that she does love Nightmare Moon in that manner.
2. I'm inclined to disagree on Celestia's side, as well, as she is used to ponies begging for her in marriage, a tryst, et cetera. So, she has been sheltered from rejection her entire life, thus, breaking down when it finally happens. Twilight remains unrepentant for above reasoning, she's still a rapist monster.
3. She swears loyalty? Not exactly. She promises, as an equal, to help her in her task of bringing about eternal night. Close, but not the same thing. It's just a matter of coping with the pain. This is a new area of Twilight to explore, as nothing close to this ever happens. Leaving a canon-free mold. Nightmare Moon is painted as evil, but after the path this story has taken, I wouldn't be surprised if she championed Nightmare Moon's regime, trying to twist people's way of looking at her away from hate. Antithesis is a strong word, I would go as far as a foil as far as their desires, and no further. Drop of a hat...Hmm, no. She is undergoing slight disembodiment, saying things she didn't tell herself to say, et cetera, in that period. She even shied away from herself internally when she said things like that. Lack of consideration because Twilight's narrow-minded, and is looking at the world in a very polarized black and white at this point. Nightmare Moon, however, is white, and Celestia is black. Her moral compass was screwed like a slut when Celestia did what she did. Again, I'll address that Twilight finds her love for Celestia didn't stretch to romantic like she thought it did.
4. It was more of her coping with the loss of Celestia still, coupled with the fact that Nightmare Moon was 20 bajillion times more gentle. Remember, Celestia went straight for the marehood, while Nightmare Moon attempted to make her feel comfortable with it first.
5. Rainbow's death could easily be linked to the fact that she wasn't there for her when needed most. She was sent away by Celestia, so yes, it could be linked. And, in my opinion, by now Celestia would be playing the part of an iron fist, tearing Equestria apart at the seams by inflicting her own misery upon it.
6. What fight scene? You mean the torture part? Yes, I did paint it that Twilight wanted Celestia dead, but of course, she's still used to the moon, and messes up. The torture was so Twilight could work out her frustration and pain somehow, and actually targeting the pony that had hurt her seemed the best way to do it.
As for whether I'm just Celestia-bashing, maybe a little. I like reversing the palate a bit sometimes. I did think about overinternalizing the torture chapter, but felt it would lead to a boring reading experience. So, I left it as is. Anyway, I hope this answered most, if not all, of your questions and statements adequately.
I am loving this story. How long are you planning on making it?
More please.
Also, I think I just forgot what I read....
2486636
Long enough to fully explore the plot I have planned out ^-^ It'll be rather long, so buckle up and enjoy the ride.
2486678
Umm, okay then. I'll be sure to throw more up as it gets ready. ^-^
PSA:
I don't know why I like it, but ripping Twilight from her friends appeals to me as a story idea. As both this story and my other one have used it, however, I'll probably abandon that for a while after these are done.
2486696
*Buckles up and lowers sunglasses* LETS DO THIS!!!
2486731
I lol'd. Thank you for that.
LES DO DIS. LEROYYYY! Aa JENKIIIIIIINSSSsss!!!......Oh ma Gawd he just ran in.
!LoL! When I read this comment:*Buckles up and lowers sunglasses* LETS DO THIS!!!
that was all I could think of. !LoL!
2486713
2486596
1 - I disagree, Twilight almost instantly showed dislike for Celestia, though it's understandable given how Celestia was pushing so hard:
and she hated Celestia before being sent to the moon:
Twilight doesn't appear to have even tried to resolve the situation peaceably; throwing away an entire life's worth of trust and friendship.
2 - Celestia charges Twilight with:
For refusing her advances? Telling her to get out and never come back? Sure. Banishing her to the moon for imaginary crimes? Once again there's not enough justification for Celestia being so callous. And Celestia is not a rapist monster. She never did that. She got carried away, and got too close, but she still stopped well short of actual rape. Celestia also doesn't appear to have tried to resolve the situation peaceably; throwing away an entire life's worth of trust and friendship.
Both numbers 1 and 2 seem horribly out of character, especially the complete disregard for their previous relationship.
3 -
If she's not immediately swearing loyalty, then that point needs to be a lot more clear. Also, Twilight too quickly throws away anything and everything she's ever learned about Nightmare Moon by declaring for NMM's goals. Celestia at least kept the day/night cycle; eternal night seems like a step in the wrong direction for everything. Twilight being won over could cover an entire arc; it should not take less than 3 paragraphs (at the drop of a hat).
4 - An extra minute spent playing touchy-feely is not enough to justify the differences in outcome. Sex is still sex, and it happened far too fast given how badly Twilight's last experience went. Celestia had years building her relationship to the point where she felt comfortable. NMM? Not nearly the same amount of time/effort. So why is Twilight more in to NMM than Celestia? The story doesn't cover that.
5 - No.
Not one piece of evidence was given, but Twilight thinks Celestia is at fault.
Celestia never tries to patch things up with the pony she loves AND now she's gone fully Tyrantlestia? Why? There's so little explanation for why she throws away the entirety of her show-based personality. It's like reading a NLR/SE story.
6 - My point about the torture scene still stands though. Yes, she's lashing out. But she's doing it in such an uncharacteristically cruel and out of character way that more lead-in explanation is necessary if you want us to believe this is Twilight Sparkle. So as is, this isn't Twilight Sparkle. This is just some cliche horrible monster that was labeled Twilight Sparkle.
And the key thing that needs to happen, especially after all this discussion, is to not leave it at that. Stories are not told through footnotes. If you are going to elaborate on these points to make them better, then do it in your story.
Shame. So many theories on how to "kick the shit out of somepony's chest" are destroyed.
Also...suddenly, sex between Nightmare and Twilight...
2488024
Silly Shachza Everyone knows that Celestia has problems, in this story she happens to have more problems and be a sociopath. Wait never mind she is a sicio in most stories
2488024
I'm going to solve all of this by admitting I'm wrong, and explaining how I know I'm wrong.
This is simply me being frustrated with everypony's stories pursuing a similar way of thinking, yet in the end, they somehow redeem Twilight, Nightmare Moon's still evil, et cetera. I wanted to take away from that. The best way to me, was to find a way to subvert Twilight into a villain by aiding Nightmare Moon, but make Nightmare Moon herself into a good character. So, yes, I am not following canon what so ever, for all intents and purposes. That settle the matter for ya?
Also, threw away Twi/Celly's friendship on principle to start the story. Wanted something with a lot of attention grabbing shit in it.
And one more thing. Defying someone for their principles (or what they stand for), doesn't mean you hate the person. You just have some fundamental differences of opinion right now.
2490324
I instantly thought of Potter Puppet Pals for some reason, when I saw this.
Please tell me you didn't put that in there with the intent of making a pun.
Will NMM betray Twilight in the future ? Are we hearing Luna...or NMM ?