What Separates

by Zurock

Chapter 14: Necessity

"No...?" James cautiously said, reflecting some of Twilight's own bewilderment back at her. He steadied his voice as he repeated himself. "No, I wouldn't kill him. I mean, I DIDN'T kill him. But I still wouldn't either."

Twilight seemed inexplicably caught in her own surprise while trying to orient her thoughts. She babbled, "I guess... I guess I just thought... I mean, the way everything was described before..." The disjointed fragments fumbled past her lips, trying to somehow assemble and express her incomplete exploration of the topic.

"What? The way what was described before?" James asked.

Wordless, Twilight's mouth hung slightly open as she searched for an answer to give back to him, but she realized she hadn't considered the matter too deeply. However, it swiftly dawned upon James that there was only one remotely similar conversation she could even be referring to. He tried to explain the nature of things, though his voice dragged mildly as he said, "There's... there's a huge difference between being in a war and... aggressively dealing with a matter that really should be reserved for civil justice. They're not even remotely the same thing."

Regaining some of her composure, Twilight started to respond, "Okay, well, be that as it may, we're still talking about the value of somepony's life so surely-"

"The context is completely different," James reemphasized. "The circumstances are completely different."

"What does that matter?" Twilight demanded.

But he was absolutely insistent on its importance, telling her again, "The context is what matters the most. It all depends on the situation." He wasn't sure what to tell her otherwise. The two scenarios weren't comparable in his mind.

Twilight gave a light sigh and shook her head. She took his words and turned them back around, reinterpreted as her logical conclusion, saying, "You're telling me that... that murder... is alright in certain circumstances?" Her distaste for the suggestion almost had her sticking out her tongue.

"No, it's not that people think murder is alright," James countered. "I don't think there's anybody who thinks that mu-" Okay, yeah, there was no way that statement was going to be a blanket universal truth. In the dark times when worst excesses of hate occur, some people can encourage some pretty twisted thing. He was going to have to pull back some of the blanket to be more reflective of reality. But only some. After all, since in any given place there are usually laws on the books against murder, it can at least be said that the majority of people certainly don't condone such aggravated, fatal violence. Starting over, he told Twilight, "Most people agree that killing others is a terrible thing. Even in wars it's still seen as horrifying."

"Well, if that much is agreed-"

"But!" James was fast to cut her off before she could lay out her point. "But, like we've talked about before, enough people also believe that there are times when killing becomes necessary." He laid a strong emphasis on that final word. "Times when it has to be done, because there's simply no other choice. So even though it's not seen as a good thing, even seen as a horrible thing, there are still certain times and certain contexts in which it's considered acceptable. Acceptable only as a necessary measure."

"I don't believe it's ever acceptable," Twilight flatly stated, "so I'm struggling to understand what possible difference the context could ever really make."

Unsure how to go about explaining it yet again, James could only repeat himself, "The context is that, in war, it's... seen as necessary. Somebody is going to have to do it. And that's not the same case with vengeance."

The stalling out frustrated Twilight, who blew some air out of the side of her mouth. Putting her head down and closing her eyes, she thought hard to try and analyze what she was being told. In particular, her brain seemed to key in on two of the words James had stressed: "acceptable" and "necessary".

For starters, the two are obviously not the same thing. But does one indubitably imply the other? An accepted measure is certainly not always a needed measure. If there are multiple accepted solutions to a problem, any can be used; they generally aren't all needed. But a needed measure... something that, in theory, MUST be done to solve the problem at hand... if one doesn't accept it as a solution, then does the problem stay unsolvable? That doesn't seem a fair assessment. It fails to factor in perception. What an individual pony determines to be necessary may not always be objectively necessary. It can be only the opinion of the individual that it is necessary. Ergo, it could maybe be said, at the least, that if a pony sees a measure as absolutely necessary, they are only likely to see it as also acceptable. They might feel as if they have little choice in the matter.

Too lost in her own thoughts to consciously track her actions, Twilight opened her eyes and stood up, taking a few small paces about her position. James watched, but stayed silent to give her time to think. He was only partially clued into her thoughts by the occasional utterance she let out as she continued her contemplations.

Going from her prior logic, she concluded that any society which sees killing, in absolute, as necessary... or at least SOMETIMES necessary, will then most probably see it as SOMETIMES acceptable. Even regardless of whatever moods and feelings they may have with respect to such slaughter in general. That theory lined up with what James was expressing. For the sake of argument, Twilight flipped around the considerations. What of a society that sees killing, in absolute, as acceptable? Would the necessity be considered at all? Would the necessity even be relevant to them? If murder were absolutely accepted... well, there are a whole lot of scary implications she could make about such a society. But those possible conclusions don't seem to match with who James appeared to be. So maybe it wasn't right to even remotely attach those thoughts to the far off place he was from...

She turned to the man, briefly puzzled by her changed position as she became aware of her physical self again, and asked him, "Most people don't look favorably upon murder, even in warfare?" Her voice was driven with verification rather than curiosity.

"God, no. It's not seen favorably at all," James confirmed. "The lamentations of war... particularly with regards to death, come in poems, plays, novels, stories, art, music... all sorts of things about the atrocities and horrors of it all. Those things go on to fill up whole libraries." That was mostly true. As a soldier, steps have to be taken to rise above that since soldiers need to be ready and able behind the trigger when the time comes. They're the ones who must be most prepared to step up and do what has to be done. But history seemed to have a way to always remember the body counts. The soldiers fight, but it isn't always the soldiers who bury the dead afterwards.

Nodding to the confirmation, Twilight delved into her ruminations again. The focus in her eyes shifted and she restarted her mild pacing, continuing the murmuring of little whispers to herself.

A very, very long time ago it certainly may have been the case for ponies that taking a life was seen as an unwanted necessity. She knew that there was once a time when armies of armored soldiers marched or flew towards each other with violent intentions. Fighting, slaying, butchering each other in battle. Pony wars that may have been thought of as unavoidable, undesired but acceptable. The attitude of James' present may have been the ponies' past. But that's such ancient history now. If that was what ponies thought back at that time, then somewhere in the course of history the underlying thinking had changed. That kind of fighting and death was, for some unknown reason or from some mysterious cause, deemed either less "necessary" or less "acceptable".

But she had no leads to go on. Her history books had left her with no indications where a change had occurred or why. Reaching back into folklore always yielded more moral lessons and emotional teachings than they did factual accounts. It was an open field of pure speculation. Naturally, this didn't keep Twilight from making her own guesses; she would follow the trails of her thoughts to whatever ideas and hypotheses they could generate.

What drives necessity? Or rather, going along with an earlier note, what drives the perception of necessity? Facts, was her first immediate thought. Knowledge is directly tied to how many solutions one has available when faced with any given problem. If there are few options, then those few may be perceived as more necessary than if a larger pool of choices were available. By the same token, acquiring more knowledge, learning more things about the situation, gaining new insights... in these ways new possibilities can open up. And more possibilities is more solutions, which can mean a reduced perception of necessity for any particular given option. So maybe the ponies of old could have learned something which changed their thinking on what was "necessary".

But in some ways that was still a lacking answer. For instance, it didn't provide any clues regarding what was perhaps the more fundamental question. Why would ancient ponykind believe war was ever a necessity to begin with? That first night, when Twilight had asked James, "Why?", his answer had been, "That's just the way it is." Saying, "The ponies of the past saw war as their only option," really wasn't any different of an answer.

That thought lead her to realize that, of course, extreme circumstances may also drive necessity. If something is important enough, or somepony dear enough, then the need to secure or protect it (or him, or her) could be seen as uncompromisingly necessary. And if options are few or nonexistent... well, then ordinary standards may be abandoned, giving way to extreme measures to meet those extreme circumstances. The notion of "doing whatever it takes." Accomplishing the task "no matter the cost." In James' instance, this was demonstrated by killing being intolerable in some contexts but acceptable in others.

"Doing whatever it takes" was something Twilight felt an immediate connection to. That was something she knew she was familiar with. In the past, she and her friends have been in tight spots where everything seemed to be on the line. In those moments she certainly felt like they were ready to do anything that needed to be done in order to save the day. And if any new threat ever came to her friends, or to Ponyville, or to all of Equestria, she believed that they would step up and do whatever it takes again... but... she ALSO still believed they would never deliberately kill anypony. Her train of thought crashed as she recognized her feelings were something of a paradox; claiming on one hoof she would do anything but on the other hoof explicitly denying one possibility.

Twilight stopped pacing, groaning once with displeasure at the dead end she had steered herself into. Was she a hypocrite? Or maybe it was all about her perception again. Assuming that the pony wars of old were at least partially caused by believing that battle was unavoidably necessary, and assuming that ancient ponykind learned something which eventually put a stop to it... then ponies have innately "known" such violence and death hasn't been "necessary" for maybe thousands of years. In simpler terms, she would have no natural reason to assume it ever would be necessary, even in the most dire of circumstances. For instance, even when the entirety of Equestria was threatened with eternal darkness by Nightmare Moon, Princess Celestia still wouldn't go so far as to destroy her sister. The Princess did have to take the extreme and incredibly painful measure of sealing her own sister away for a very long time, but she did not take the more lethal course of action. And she's the leader of all ponies! And that was even a thousand years ago!

As the busy unicorn continued tumbling through the thoughts in her head, James only partially acknowledged Twilight's erratic pacing. He was himself beginning to nervously withdraw into thought. The quiet, ruminative behavior she was now displaying, in the middle of their conversation no less, was quite different than how she had previously approached their discussions. He heard in his head the echo of Princess Celestia's warning to him and he worried if perhaps this conversation had gone somewhere too dark for Twilight. For a bunch of naive little ponies who live in hollowed out trees and gingerbread houses, the weighty moral choices of war and the complicated issues surrounding the value of life might be a bit too much for their innocent minds. To him it seemed doubtful they would have ever run up against a truly desperate situation that called for making the hard choices.

Just as he was considering speaking up, Twilight repositioned herself across from him and sat down again. She radiated a calm collectedness and her eyes sparked with focus. Not sure now what to expect, James quietly gave her an awkward stare while folding his arms. The unicorn looked him over while giving a slow nod and a slight, almost hidden smile.

Thinking over everything, Twilight realized that while her personal philosophy on this abominable topic was very black and white, it was a subject that was obviously much more complicated than she had given it credit for. With respect to pony history, it was hard to do anything more than make conjectures about it (barring some finagling with time magic, but that was far too risky.) However, if she was assuming that the same impetuses for violence in James' world drove some of the pony wars of the past, than that meant James was actually a direct chance to gain insight on her own kind's history. From a certain perspective, he was in fact pony history come to life. An opportunity to really explore the subject matter, and in safe way.

"I'm sorry about that, I was just gathering my thoughts," she confidently apologized. Her voice took charge and she asked him directly, "Now, why don't you explain to me: what is the difference in the two scenarios? I mean, in your personal opinion. Why, for you, would killing in revenge be unacceptable but killing in warfare be considered acceptable?" Her ears perked up and she cocked her head, listening intently. There was no struggle to try and deeply interpret and respond this time. Just focus and attention, like an interested student waiting for the lecture to start.

"Well..." James began with a pause. He rocked back and forth slightly in his seat before he found where he wanted to start from. "A revenge killing for some personal reason IS just a murder. It's a personal, one-on-one conflict that ultimately doesn't assist a functioning society. And that's important. People try to run a society for the benefit of everyone, so you need law and order. Rules and regulations. If everybody went to take revenge against those who they feel have wronged them, things would descend to chaos very quickly." That wasn't particularly specific to murder as a crime. Society was about establishing rules and systems to help everybody get by in their lives, of which systems of justice was just a facet. "It wouldn't be my place to render judgment on the other man, regardless of what I feel. To help maintain a safe, stable society, matters of justice like that need to be put into the hands of a socially agreed upon system.

"War... is different. For one thing, it's something much larger and more impersonal. It involves whole societies, not just the affairs of individuals. In war, both sides acknowledge that they're fighting each other, so..." He delayed. What he was planning on saying might come out sounding ridiculous out loud, more so than it did in his head. "There's a... a sort of agreed, implicit understanding that, because there's a war, soldiers from both sides will fight and some of them will be killed. Again, it's thought of as necessary, by both sides. It's mutually accepted, which is pretty much never true of a revenge scenario. I guess on some level it can also be said that the normal order of society has already broken down to reach a state of warfare, so everybody accepts that not all the usual social rules apply. But even in war there's still an effort to cling to some kind of rules. Like, as much as possible, allowing only the soldiers to fight."

James pinched the bridge of his nose. It was quite a gross oversimplification. Collateral damage, intentional massacres (or worse) of civilians, and other atrocities always crop up in warfare despite the best efforts to stick to the "rules" of war. But it was still the thought that counted. Part of the reason those things are such disgusting, vile tragedies is because they break the perceived "rules".

Raising an eyebrow with skepticism, Twilight plainly asked him, "So, even in such a drastic conflict there are rules to be adhered to?" Every audible ounce of her question oozed with suspicion.

It didn't help that James' answer was a hesitantly given, "S-sort of." Twilight winced while giving a glance aside.

"The point is," James continued, "the context between the two scenarios is significantly different. In the personal matter, I can't be the judge to deliver justice to the man who was responsible for my friend's death. Society at large needs to do that. Because everybody can't take it upon themselves to play judge without harming social order." He shifted his hands from one side of his body to the other, to demonstrate a separation. "In war, which is much larger than any issue between two individuals, both sides acknowledge the conflict driven state they're in and so society accepts that their soldiers will fight with their lives as necessary."

"Society controls the value of life, and when it is 'acceptable' for some to be killed," Twilight laid out bluntly.

He didn't like the detached way that sounded, but he couldn't disagree with the fact that his basic argument could be boiled down to such a level. "Yeah, I guess so," he answered her.

Twilight shook her head. "What I don't like about that," she said, "is that I feel like 'society' isn't always a well defined thing here. It's not tangible. Do you mean... something like authority or government?"

"Well, I am using the word loosely. Maybe 'culture' or 'majority' might fit in better," James suggested. "It's the collective beliefs and will that emerges from people when they are gathered together. So it's definitely related to things like government, and laws, and everything. But it's also something which is deeper, if you know what I mean. A government can try to make that determination on the value of life, but if the inner heart of the people doesn't agree with it then they won't go along with it. Not without serious coercion."

"Uh-huh," Twilight calmly said in agreement. Before Equestria had Princesses, the separate pony tribes were lead by their chosen leaders. Recalling her own experiences with teamwork, she understood the difficulties that can come into play even with a united group of ponies. Keeping the ponies directed towards the end goal while still caring for the personal needs of each pony was part of the role of leadership. "Good leadership represents the will and spirit of the ponies being lead," she stated. "And it should also always work towards the best interests of those ponies."

James concurred wholeheartedly. "Right, exactly. So it's still that will and spirit that is supreme in the end. Bad leadership won't represent that or, even worse, attempt to exploit it. Come to think of it, revolutions to alter leadership are a pretty common theme throughout history. When people feel those in charge are not serving them as they should be, they're not afraid to do something about it."

"Alright. Well, assume that, for some society, the leadership is well organized and represents those they're leading," she immediately directed him. "In that case, why do you think conflict and wars still begin? Any particular reasons or causes?"

"Oh, geez. I don't know," he softly complained. Taking a moment to think, he rubbed his chin while drawing slow, large breaths. "Competition for limited resources, maybe. Like we talked about before with animals, only between societies. Hrm. Then again, it's not always about survival..." He held up an open palm for a moment before simply shrugging. "You know, there could be any reason. Pick any individual war and it's a major topic to study all on its own. You could spend weeks looking at the social factors, the political motivations, everything. Maybe... maybe in the end, the reason... the trigger behind any outbreak of war... isn't particularly important...?"

He sounded like he was searching for the right way to finish his thought, but Twilight provided a possible conclusion, saying, "If the willingness to fight is present? So long as there are ponies who would accept that fighting unavoidably must be done in certain circumstances, they would fight regardless of the reasons given. Only as long as the situation called for it."

"Yeah..." James loosely agreed.

Twilight mentally processed all the different data that had been coming in. Studying, collating, analyzing, reinterpreting. At last, she said to James, "I bet for someponies like that it would take something quite momentous and powerful to change their thinking and teach them that they don't have to fight." Her voice lowered as if she was talking to herself and she murmured aside with a small, awed smile, "Somehow we did it."

Their dialogue ground to a halt. James had become passive, responding only to Twilight's input, but the unicorn seemed unconcerned with pressing any more questions. She wasn't bothered by the stalling. The resolution she had come to had made her feel better than ever about the situation. It had given her some theoretical insight into the history of her own kind, and in particular she felt a great sense of appreciation for how far ponies seem to have come. What's more, she really thought she was getting to better understand her new guest. Like before, she believed that perhaps the differences between them weren't as grand as they appeared to be. Lastly, a tremendous sense of accomplishment pervaded her feelings. There are always moments of nervousness, and dread, and worry in these kinds of situations. The ones that you are reluctant and scared to approach. But once the will is found to push past all the doubt and you throw yourself into the thick of things, the darkness clears, light prevails, and you find that the monsters of your mind are worse than most of what you'll actually face.

She said to James, "I suppose that's enough for tonight. I'm really glad we got a chance to talk about all this."

"Sorry if this conversation went somewhere that you weren't comfortable with," James responded. His delivery was a little shaky as he forced himself to say the words, feeling a need to apologize.

She looked back at him, puzzled. "It may not be a subject matter I find enchanting, and I can't really say I deeply understand some of the finer points right now... but it would be really ridiculous of me to deny the existence of where you come from." Standing up, she stretched her neck, twisting her head from side to side in order to relieve some stiffness. "Besides," she addressed him again, "I need to try and understand where you're coming from if I'm going to get you to understand where I'm coming from. I also happen to think there's a lot of things we can learn from each other."

James considered her words. Although Princess Celestia had given him a warning, she had also expressed that same exact sentiment of mutual education. "Alright," he answered, "I just don't want to be spreading any dangerous ideas or anything."

But Twilight scoffed lightheartedly. "Knowledge is neither good nor evil," she incanted, raising her head up high at the recitation of one of her many favorite quotes. "It's what you do with it that counts. And if I don't have any bad intentions, and you don't have any bad intentions, AND you're even worried about it... well, then I think we're not going to have any problems. Thanks for the concern," she said, expressing herself with a proud confidence poured over just a little tiny bit of assured smugness.

James got up himself, stretching his rigid legs and arms out. "Well... you're in charge," he told her playfully, submitting to her positive determination.

"Right," she chuckled with an easy mirth. "And I say it's time for some sleep. Do you want any food, or water, or anything?" she asked as she started towards the door.

"Nah. I'm just going to read a little more and then get some sleep." He gestured to the books Twilight had given to him last night, still stacked on the table besides him.

"Alright," she replied. "Thanks again. And have a good night." She made her way out, towards her own bedroom, eager to finally get some rest and recuperate from the many trials of the day.

"Good night," James called after her as he watched her go.

Without sitting down, he reached to where he left "The Tourist's Guide to Ponyville" on the table and picked it up. He drove his finger into where the bookmark had been placed but stopped short of opening the tome. Frozen with indecision, he eyed the heavy volume in his hands, afterwards turning to look at the other books on the table. Finally, he took his finger out and dropped the book back on top of the stack resting on the table. He slid "Shadow of a Pony's Heart", the fiction story Twilight had recommended, out from the bottom of the pile. Sitting back down and stretching out his legs, he turned his body to get the best possible lighting on the book. He opened the decorative bound cover and flipped to the first page.

Comments

[amiamera]

The philosopher in me wonders how Twilight would handle the trolley problem which is used to demonstrate the lesser of evils ideology and the problem of trying to use an act and omission as a differentiation of guilt.

[LayDownHunter]

It's amazing what kind of conversations you can have with someone from another universe, the different ideologies and such. Brilliant chapter, I'm surprised Twilight is so accepting to his ways of thinking.

[wlam]

The way he waffles on about how "the majority" or "society" determine the value of life in this chapter makes him having strong convictions about justice rather ironic.

[grievousrommel]

I was reading fanfiction to get my mind AWAY from my philosophy class......why me?

[Pro Wrestling Pony]

I would love to see her reaction to the fact that we fight for sport and entertainment

[Amethyst Blade]

I want to see her reaction and though on "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."
Those sort of seemingly contradiction and stuff..."We work in the dark to serve the light."
And no, Assassin's Creed is not the origin of the quotes but it is the most well known subject that use them.
"Only the dead can see the end of war."
"War, war never change."
"You can only delay war, not avoid them."
ETC

[DDDDDDDDD23]

Ponies are controlled by celestia.
Their herd mentality means that they adhear to her views.
So they would go back to war if celestia left.
In this regard that do not have free will.

[Theresa]

Considering if wasn't for the windgos the 3 tribes might have gone to war. They were pretty ticked off with each other and the windgos didn't help anything but make it worse. I think peace only came in because of the windgos and became habit over time.

[KvAT]

5588436
You think, therefore you are.

9011137
Not necessarily. Due to her immortality, Princess Celestia is seen as less of a ruler and more of a demigod. To the common ponies, she's pretty much "Equestria" personified (ponynified?). Ponies adhere to her not because just because of herd mentality or because she's the ruler, but because she's like this figure that never ceases to exist, never dying nor leaving. After a thousand years, ponies can't help but deify her, because she sits on a thousand year old throne, keeping Equestria stable and running. It's not that ponies have no free will under her, but ponies as a society socially evolved to see her more and more as a demigod ruler as time goes on. Ponies choose to deify her, not the other way around.

Actually, I think it can be said that Celestia is pretty much the Equestrian version of God-Emperor of Mankind, just that Equestria's smaller size makes it possible for her to be more intimate with the populace.