... Why?
When I first saw the NLR vs. SE idea two years or so ago, this was actually the first question that popped into my head. Between the two sisters, Luna actually is the least likely I'd see for trying to make a republic. This is due to both the character, the world, and the time periods.

Luna turned into Nightmare Moon and was banished 1,000 years ago. Judging from all the sources we have, 1,000 years back was roughly equivalent to our Medieval or Late Roman period. And because she had to be imprisoned, this means NMM/Luna was absent for 1,000 years worth of social changes. Present day Equestria definitely seems to be a modern society. It has elected officials, entrepreneurship, and other signs that it seems most comparable to either a very liberal monarchy, or a constitutional monarchy akin to the UK. Equality definitely seems to be stressed much more than in the past (Hearthswarming Eve time), with all three pony races as well as other species holding jobs and positions all across the spectrum. And all of this change or continual condition took place under 1,000 years of Celestia's rule. And judging from canon, Luna's more archaic mannerisms and thought seem to call back to a more ancient era, so while absolutely benign, she's still working on the modern ethics and mannerisms bit.

So wouldn't it actually make a lot more sense for the alicorn who's been present and quite probably enacted some of these progressive changes to be the one to push for a modern styled republic like the NLR is? And by the same token, wouldn't it be more likely the alicorn who hasn't been around for all these changes to go for a more traditional government system like am empire or kingdom?

Why don't we have a New Solar Republic and a Lunar Empire?

4309494 Because Celestia is a bloody tyrant with powers of God, that's why Empire. And Luna is a passionate character who listen and respect everypony, she was simply misunderstood and ignored most of time, nothing else.
I mean, how can this adorable face be the face of dictator? No way she is! She is very kind and weak.
I am just writing what I have witnessed in first years of fandom, no offence to all Celestiafans and Lunafans.

And, well, the stereotypes - bad guys rule the Empires, while good guys rule Kingdoms.

4309494
What OozeLock said, but also, some fics portray Luna as never becoming Nightmare Moon, like in The Thousand Year Change.

4309551

Because Celestia is a bloody tyrant with powers of God, that's why Empire.

Because Celestia is a bloody tyrant

bloody tyrant

This statement confused me then and it baffles me now. At this point I'm almost to the conclusion this whole thing got spurred due to Fanon Luna being a purity sue waifu to some..

4309703

At this point I'm almost to the conclusion this whole thing got spurred due to Fanon Luna being a purity sue waifu to some..

Bingo!

4309703

That second face is Perfect!

4309758

I was afraid of that...

4309494 Luna got pissed off at the inequality, so she wants to start a republic. But being part of a rare race, she can't really be head of Equestria without ponies thinking that only they can be head. the solution, The commonwealth of Equestria.

4310047

If being part of a rare race is a factor, why wouldn't the exact same factor be in place for Celestia?

4310084 But Celestia isn't the one who wants to create a republic.

4310084 Cos' Celestia wasn't pissed off at the inequeality.

4310108

Why? Asking why is the whole point of the thread. Did you read my post?

it's because Celestia IS a tyrant.

Note how for the past one thousand years, there's been no big crisis's. Coincidence? I believe not. We've seen ponies are flawed, and there has to be some who have done bad things, EG. Trixie. Some stories go into more depth about this, including but not limited to: Silencing differing opinions, demonizing other races (Note the lack of griffins.), and in one story, COMPLETE CHARACTER RECONSTRUCTION. Make no mistake, Celestia is not a benevolent leader.

"But!" I hear you cry "Why didn't she do that to Trixie!" I'll tell you: She's getting weaker, and bigger threats were starting to show up. She needed a weapon that would defend the nation for her, and the result? The Element Bearers. She's kept a close eye, and a closer relationship with each of the bearers we see in the show. Trixie was just a test bed, as is most of season 1. Notice how they've defeated each threat so far, except Chrysalis, who managed to defeat Celestia (Showing that she's getting weaker. Celestia got lucky with Cadence and Shining) As long as she can keep the dealings under the hood, nobody suspects anything. Except Luna noticed.

Luna, catching Celestia during one of her... Restructurings... Fled. Questioning if she herself was a result of one of Celestia's Restructurings, she made a plan that would be unable to be stopped by one of them: a Republic. Celestia would have to do a Mass Restructuring if she wanted to break a republic (Unlike a monarchy, in which case she'd only have to Restructure one being.) This also shores up Luna's weakness of being young.

And that's how the NLR came to be. Hope you enjoyed. :D

4310855
That... makes no sense at all

demonizing other races (Note the lack of griffins.)

Um... no. We've seen griffins (gryphons? griffins?) living in Equestria no problem, holding jobs of equal status (celebrity chefs and flight teams) to ponies and attending the same institutions (Gilda and RD going to flight school together). This doesn't just mean other races and species are tolerated, but that their is no segregation at all except according to physical limitation (lack of earth ponies in Cloudsdale for obvious reasons). The lack of other races is pretty well explained by this map of the country as well as expanded material in the books, that the gryphons have their own nation. Complaining about lack of griffins and calling prejudice is like complaining about the lack of Russians in South Africa and saying Johannesburg hates Eurasians. They just naturally stick to their homeland more than spreading out.

Still, for so much equality to be going about, it shows that things really had changed for the better in the last 1,000 years for other races. This is a clear cut sign of a progressive society, something that solely occurred under Celestia's watch, not Luna's. I'm not saying Luna wouldn't be in support for all this, she likely is. But the fact of the matter is there is a millennium's worth of evidence to the contrary to call Celestia a racist.

Silencing differing opinions

The only beings we've seen Tia get personally involved against were a chaos bringing eldritch abomination (Discord), a homicidal war lord (Chrysalis on 2 occasions), rampaging monsters (giant cockatrices); and a power hungry literal nightmare who would have caused a mass extinction (Nightmare Moon). The fact that some less agreeable ponies like Trixie or the Flim Flams are allowed to live fairly unmolested actually would be more proof of Celestia NOT being quick to silence other.

And why wouldn't Celestia want near element bearers to be found and tested? Her connection to them broke when she was forced too (while crying mind you) banish her own sister. With knowledge that certain threats required the elements to fix them and that they might be the only thing that could bring Luna back, why wouldn't she work to find new inheritors? In addition to safety, if anything's clear it's that Celestia desperately wanted her sister back. And after her first close pupil, Sunset Shimmer, was lost to pride and greed, it makes sense Celestia would want to insure any future power players in Equestria wouldn't let hat power go to their heads. In effect, she had to make sure Twilight wouldn't become the next Sunset, and only ascended her (something Sunset desired) after she'd proven herself.

4311913 So, a couple of things.

The positions we've seen in the show seem to be in celebrity positions, yes. Pretty much ONLY those. You don't really see Griffins(We'll go with that spelling) in everyday life. The reason that they would stay in their own country, is normal griffins DO get segregated in Equestrian society. Gilda isn't exactly famous(, and Pinkie was quick to put the famous chef on the suspect list. There just aren't enough griffins to be able to support either of out statements. Honestly, yes, this is probably one of the weaker points of my arguement.

However, the second paragraph is much easier to tackle. There isn't really much equality to show that supposed "progressive" side... or much profess either. It looks pretty stagnant actually, with the most we know happening in that period was Ponyville being established. There's hardly any evidence at all, pointing at Celestia actually being somewhat of a traditionalist... or an possible oppressor, with no notable anything or anybody out of that period.

1:Celestia interacted with Discord when she was younger, possibly more powerful in a future form (Her power decline could have started anywhere during those one thousand years). 2: Umm... Chrysalis only really interacts with celestia once, and chrysalis kicked her ***. I looked, and found no mention of the two interacting in the comics. Again, Cadence and Shining managed to win through the skin of their teeth. 3: Shit, I'm not familiar with that comic, so I'm going to go with you on this one. 4: This one will actually extend into the next Paragraph, SO STAY TUNED! The Flim-Flam brothers actually aren't that big of a threat to Celestia. The most they generally manage to do is offer competition, which the ponies themselves actually deal with. There's no reason for Celestia to deal with them. And as I said, Trixie was a testbed for Twilight.

Alright, the end of this long-***rant. There are a lot of different interpretations for the elements and Celestia you could go with. If you want the most blantantly-wrong one, you could go with She doesn't want them found, because they can imprison HER, though neither of us said that. Number 2: She wanted them found because she can have other ponies use them as a weapon for her: EG. why she was so close to Twilight. The last one, which is the darkest, is they do more than we think they do. The elements are never really explained well (which is why they're used so often as the Deus Ex Machina), but It's possible that, used the right way, or prepared in a way, they can have special properties, such as mind control. I'm fairly sure she mentioned once that that's not how they work, but she could always be lying, as you don't really want to tell people that you have access to a mind-altering weapon. We don't know that Celestia was crying while she banished her sister. I wouldn't really trust the word of a Chaos demon in the first place, even less so one blasted by the elements.

So the next question is, who is Sunset Shimmer really? Honestly, I'm kinda tempted to ignore her entirely considering she's NEVER mentioned in the Canon (Most people don't consider things outside the show canon), BUT LET'S TRY ANYWAY!

So let's start this off with a statement: Sunset Shimmer is an enemy of Celestia. That does not mean she knows of what's going on, however. All we really know of Sunset Shimmer is that at one point, she was Celestia's student, she eventually got power hungry, and left. So we have some questions to ask: How well known was Sunset(She's never really mentioned), where in the Timeline is she (I think the timeline places her a little bit before Twilight goes Super-saiyan), and why did she leave(Was she tricked into believing Celestia was stronger than she is?) Also, how involved was Celestia with Sunset? Just because Celestia's old, doesn't mean she doesn't once every thousand years make a mistake. So many questions, so many non-existent answers. The point is, Sunset exited the equation by leaving equestria, and even if she re-entered, she'd be blasted by the elements before long.

Ultimately, not you or me will ever win this debate. The canon is so over the place that no Fan-fiction will ever be "Canon-friendly" because Canon regularly contradicts itself. The map, for example, places Smokey mountain MILES from Ponyville. How did twilight and co. get there in a DAY?
Reply soon! XOXO

I agree with what everyone else is saying. Also, Luna is seen in most of the episodes shes appears in (or at least half of them) going out into the world helping others and bonding with her subjects while struggling to fit in with the new time period at the same time. About everyone calling Celestia a bloody tyrant, there is actually an episode in the T.V. show that supports this somewhat. Recall the episode when Twilight causes mayhem trying to get material to write to Celestia about. When Celestia gets wind of it, she personally flies down there are she has an expression on her face like, "I'm going to fry you on the spot." Luna probably misses her time from before she was moonified and wants to bring some of those traditions back because who knows? Maybe they might actually improve the quality of life.That and Luna is awesome.

4309793 After reading the comments here, I wanted to clarify one thing: this is what I see the other people seeing and feeling about Luna and Celestia. I see that people see Celestia as an Emperor of some kind, and Emperors are bad cos' they don't care much about people's interests, they only care about Empire's interest - which is quite opposite most of the times. And Luna fought against Celestia (and it doesn't matter just because she was envious, no, she indeed saw the errors in Celestia's vision, so she decided to fight for all dem ponies), so she was fighting for ponies and she therefore is good pony.

I no way support that Celestia is a bloody tyrant or that Luna is a nyanyanya pony who is opposite of her cruel sister.

Well here is my belif:

While Luna has been gone it is quite possible she has been watching Equestria Develop from the moon, Almost like .... (Sry religion can't say that.) buuuuutttt if the NLR was true in Equestria it is quite possible the Celestia would win as she is the more well known of the 2 sisters. Also when you look at it, most humans see the NLR as being more modern when in fact Equestria is still using medevil weapons. now the fact that Luna made a republic shows that this most likely just a show of a fovorite character as the Solar Empire is more understandable as Celestia knows more how modern Equestria Operates.
And if you compare SE and NLR to human history you get
The NLR = The USSR (Soviet Union) which was not very advanced until later
The SE = The Japanese Empire

Given Equestria a death World the fact Equestria hasn't fallen is a testament to itself. Remember with her sister gone the elements connection to her was gone meaning Discord could break out and lay waste to the nation. He didn't break out for a thousand years. Also why would see be a tyrant she lived/seen these kinda things. Discord, Sombra, even the Wendigos. There even that other universe were she and Luna are evil so she not evil..... but most likely a shell of her former self given she literally trying to keep things happy in a death world.

Also Discord is the one true ruler

4312171
Sorry for the belated reply, and good discussion.

The reason that they would stay in their own country, is normal griffins DO get segregated in Equestrian society.

Bluntly put, no. Once again, just because their are few Russians in South Africa, doesn't mean everyone on the tip of eastern half gondwana hates Eurasians. It's just because not many happen Russians happen to live in South Africa compared to South Africans. With very, very few exceptions, natives of a country outnumber foreigners. And in a medieval styled fantasy like some of MLP seems to be, this would be even more true. You can't just see scarcity and instantly call segregation. Segregation requires laws, enforcement, actively keeping folks away from each other. In a segregated society, much like the the 1940s and 50s Southern US, we would never see stuff we see from the gryphons. Gilda went to school with RD and a gryphon flight team competes in competition right alongside known Equestrian teams. These sort of things were explicitly banned in segregated societies. And not once do we see anyone in Equestria reacting negatively to gryphons being right next to ponies on the occasions they do pop up. And not just gryphons, this also goes for minotaurs and other races. Segregation is a really big deal in societies that enforce it. You can't just say we haven't see it at all or it's just going on off screen. If it was there, it would be one of the first things we see. And for a country that prides itself on throwing a holiday against separation of races, segregation makes no sense whatsoever. There is 0 support for it. And once again, because we clearly saw a change from ancient times, when Princesses talked down to the citizenry and races didn't like associating with others; to modern times where Celestia is very soft spoken and races co-mingle freely; there is clear signs a lot of progressive cultural changes have occurred under Celestia's watch and approval.

1. And Discord was a selfish maniac who was causing chaos for everyone for his personal enjoyment. Celestia (and Luna mind you) wanting to keep him from hurting anyone makes perfect sense.

2. Comics my friend, we see Chrysalis' early days. Long story short she went on a rampage across smaller kingdoms either right before or right after NMM's attack. After she obliterated an entire kingdom and was in the process of ravaging another, Celestia flew in and wiped the floor with her. She actually damaged Chrysalis so much, that the holes in her hooves and crooked horn are a result (Chrysalis originally had full hooves and a smooth horn). This is why Chrysalis was surprised she barely beat Celestia in Canterlot Wedding, because their last fight was such a curbstomp.

3. Yah, was shown at the end of the 'Return to Chrysalis' arc. A bunch of cockatrices swarmed Canterlot and Tia lead the charge. We also see her defending the city from NMM's lackey's in a flashback.

4. My point in bringing up the Flim-Flams was Celestia is not the quick 'jump to the gun and banish you' type some painted her as.

We don't know that Celestia was crying while she banished her sister.

Yes... Yes we actually do. 3:55 if you please.

And before anyone calls foul or claims Tia manipulated the memory or Twilight was seeing what she thought would have happened, not only is Celestia not the cause of this flashback at all; but Twilight at first didn't even know this was a look into the past at first. At the start, she thought Luna turned rogue again.

And we actually DO know the reason Celestia searched to find another set of element bearers. The elements worked for just her and Luna because between the two of them as natural alicorns, all 3 races are present twice over (2 natural alicorns each have the power of earth ponies, pegasi, and unicorns; times that by 2 and you got 6 needed). The reasons Celestia only could banish Luna is because the elements were not meant to be used by 1 individual. The requirement of 6 wasn't met and thus she couldn't purify Luna like the Mane 6 could. More so, because she used it alone against another bearer, Celestia's connection was cut off. In other words, Equestria lost one of it's best defenses incase someone like Discord came back, and the only thing that could bring her sister out of NMM. So she'd need to help find 6 worthy bearers.

And because the Element of Magic is something of a catalyst, this necessitated Celestia find not only a talented but moral unicorn. Sunset Shimmer had talent, but she was greedy and selfish. And when Celestia caught her both trying to study dark magic as well as blatantly admitting SS desired to rule without showing any moral restraint (as well as demanding to be made an alicorn without having to prove herself like Twilight later would), it was the last straw. Celestia didn't banish her, but she did stop teaching her and Sunset fled through the mirror after discovering it. This is also why Celestia tested Twilight and by other measures, the whole Mane 6 so much, she had to make absolutely certain that they could handle the responsibility of having the position and power they'd have.

The last thing Celestia would want is a repeat of NMM with a rampaging, vain, greedy alicorn.

4310855 Yeah no.... Discord was a tyrant, Sombra was A tyrant, Starlight was a Tyrant, The Wendigo were Tyrants.

Celestia no, Luna no, you guys yes!

4309494
From the point of view of a former admin and avid RPer here.
*shrugs*
I never got it either. The tyrant cells thing never made any sense to me either. I tried to derail my RPs away from the SE vs NLR thing after my first RP because I couldn't take it seriously.

4309494 I have no idea! I'm only in it because Luna is adorable!

4309758 Yup. Which is exactly why nobody else besides the freaks actually take it seriously.

My advice? Spit in the faces of those who perpetuate false fanon with extreme pleasure.

Crush it. Destroy it. Nothing but canon is absolute.

Only what is known from the show, and absolutely no speculation beyond that.

It leads to badfics and the like.

The sooner these fools are isolated and stripped of their ability to express themselves, the better.

Edit: I was being hostile in tone here. My apologies. This topic triggers a nerve that I usually respond with the utmost caustic commentary.

4398507 is it weird I support this?

4338223 Huh, weeks late. All well, I hope what I give you helps!

Well, honestly though, theirs two ways of going with this, in my opinion. Three if you think your able to pull this off.

1) Celestia is a manipulator, and a handy one at that. In most stories you read, Celestia sometimes see this person as a dangerous foe, sometimes even stronger that her. Let's say you were in a game show, like Big Brother, and you see an opponent of yours that has not gotten a lost once. Wouldn't you stick around with him/her, or at least manipulate him/her to get you to the final win? It's kind of like that. Keeping around a strong opponent can sometimes keep other competitors off your back. If Luna found out she's been manipulating other ponies to her bidding, things can fall really fast.

2) Celestia's a Tyrant. This one is ridiculous to pull off you'll be lucky if you get a few hundred likes. Why I say this is because some stories tell it like she is a Tyrant. The only thing that counters it is her being kind to every pony, the perfect Harmony, and her care for every pony around her. Saying that she kills someone without a reason is ludicrous, but saying that she kills someone with reason is harder to do. She isn't already on that path, you have to make her fall down that path. Though if I know a way to do that, I'd tell you, trust me on that.

3) Either Conversion Bearu (think that's how you spell it) or by betrayal. I guess by the CB is that you can replace humans with Griffons, Minotaurs, Dragons, ect,. Keeping it a secret from the other nations is one interesting way to pull it off. By Betrayal, you can say that Luna actually planned a nation from the moment Luna came after Nightmare moon, just to see if she's capable of taking care of her own kingdom. Celestia finds out, sisterly betrayal, other nations try to interfere, blah blah blah, ect, ect. You get the point.

What I'm trying to say is that their are multiple ways to go about this, some of them harder than others. What we do know? Celestia and Luna are angry at each other, kill-worthy or not. The even harder part is building up the atmosphere, and getting away with the story. Building up armies, other nations interfering, other stuff.

Hope this helped!

4309494
I think it's because the show's earlier seasons seemed to portray Luna as a second to Celestia: generally passive and spending less time governing than Celestia did. Add this to how adorable she was in Luna Eclipsed and the conspiracy theories about how Equestria is actually some kind of oppressive dictatorship, and suddenly you have a narrative about a long ignored underdog fighting to free her subjects from tyranny. Then apply liberal amounts of Celestia-hate and unfounded accusations of cruelty for faux moral superiority.
Hope that helped.

4309494

Partly what he said 4309551

And because New Lunar Republic is a really cool sounding name

While I agree Luna and Republic seem an odd combination, what's odder is that many NLR depictions have Luna as the unelected head of state. That's a constitutional monarchy at best, not a true republic.

Now, one possible point I can see is that Luna basically embodies the problems with the monarchy (well, except maybe for the blind obedience/worship part... she seems to get less of that than even Twilight). Ergo, if a republican (in the classical sense of 'in favor of a republic') were to talk to her over time, she might be more likely to come around than her sister.

Side-note: We have seen both elected and unelected officials in Equestria. In seems to function largely as a confederation: most localities govern themselves, with Celestia and her ministers only acting on cross-settlement matters. Ponyville has a Mayor, Appleoosa has a sherrif, both generally elected positions. We don't hear about Manehattan, but it probably has a mayor. Canterlot, in the Princess Spike episode, seems to have some sort of nobility system.

Mind you, nearly all of this is head-canon on all sides here.

As best I can figure, NLR dates back to S2, when Luna had only really one post-NM appearance, and in it she learned a lesson about friendship, ie, to listen to others and not try to dominate them. I didn't start watching until S3, but NLR was already a thing by then.

>>Tarbantano
It's because Luna is more archaic that we have a NLR.