We've had a few requests to canonize these stories now, and for the first time they weren't from either me or Fizzy, indicating some broader interest in them. So I thought I'd put a thread here to discuss them.

As a reminder, these stories were written for the non-canon challenge categories. The first, for the Alicorn Challenge, was Fizzy Orange's story Luna's Pet Project, and featured Luna taking on the guise of a page to rescue a grilled cheese sandwich restaurant. The second, also for the Alicorn Challenge, was my story Luna's Night Off, and featured Luna trying to solve an ink color crisis while also watching Octavia try her hoof at hoofball. And the third, for the 'Over 1000' challenge, was my A Present for Octavia, in which Night Vision and Paperweight try to find a present for their cellist friend.

My thoughts (and bearing in mind that I wrote two of them and so might be a bit biased):

I really enjoyed Fizzy's story, and don't see any potential continuity violations. I think it works well as a side story, maybe even a 'webisode' after 'Court Musician of Equestria'.

'Luna's Night Off' is perhaps a bit too silly; in particular with the rainbow ink at the end. I wouldn't mind if it was made a side webisode anyways (or something), but I get that Luna is probably too serious of a character to canonically switch to rainbow-colored ink.

'A Present for Octavia' doesn't strike me as having anything that precludes it from being a side story webisode. Perhaps the Blueblood bit, but since Pinkie and Bluei 2 was not canonized, it seems plausible that Blueblood--while perhaps a bit better than before--might still invite two paramours to his estate within a week.

So, those are my thoughts. I feel that LPP and APfO could be side-story webisodes (maybe set after CMoE), and maybe LNO too depending on what people think re: silliness.

Well, the minor plot concerns, like Luna being a little silly, wouldn't be all that problematic in the movies/tie-ins section, which is probably where these fic would go if their canonicity level was adjusted. Besides, sometime we could do to take our selves less seriously and let the characters indulge in petty eccentricities.

Having said that, I'm not sure if we actually need to make the change. Popularity alone should never dictate what is and isn't canon. So the more pressing question would be what are the pros/cons for the characters in question and setting as a whole, if canonize these fics?

To be clear though, I'm not trying to dissent here, just trying to make sure that if we make this choice here that we do it for the right reasons.

2613680 : Well, the pros are we get more on Paperweight, Octavia, and Night Vision, which can then be built on if we want. Esp Night Vision, who write now is just a blink-and-you-miss-it cameo in 'Concert for Ponyville.'

If we want Luna to be able to use her page identity (and I could see it coming into play; maybe Twilie visits her family in Canterlot and Luna, as Night Vision, checks in to see how she's doing, or maybe Trixie rants to NV about something only to realize it's actually Luna), it could be useful to have those stories. It also gets the Canterlot Castle hoofball thing going, which could be a fun little story later (L6 vs. Team Page!)

2613707
Well, more Paperwieght is always good -- especially since I really need to stop mixing her and Pageturner up in my head.

...

Still, in regards to Night Vision; simply being able to reference her isn't really a pro in and of itself. We don't need Fizzy's fic just for Luna to have that identity. We already know from other canon fics that Luna can replicate herself and also that she sometimes uses disguise magic to move about incognito. There is absolutely no reason we can't just use the name Night Vision for one such alter-ego even without the establishing fic, much like how Trixie and Raindrops working out together is canon even though Heat of the Moment isn't.

So the question is more so about what Luna does while in that guise, rather than it's existence. Still, I'm not all that opposed to relocating these fics to the movies/tie-ins section, though it would be nice to have a reason beyond just popularity and reference. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be any other reason and I'm just being a worrywart.

...

Hmm... maybe I just need to go read those fics again. I don't recall anything all that troubling, but the first time around the question of canonicity wasn't in my mind so I might have just shrugged off such concerns without asecond glance.

I would obviously be happy to have Night Vision canonized (though I can't really see her appearing before the Gala), as she is a fun concept to play with , but I don't really feel all that comfortable being able to judge on my own story, so I think we should consult with some auxillary members (I suggest RK and Vazak) on this matter.

2619037 -- LUNA'S PET PROJECT
So, as I remembered, there is nothing all that problematic in this fic, and in fact I very much enjoy most of the way Luna herself is portrayed. That said, the fact the story was written for a writing event is rather apparent. The basic quality is just fine (baring a few pretty obvious typos), however, the plot structure is a bit awkward. Ostensibly this is suppoed to be a story about Luna using her Night Vision persona to convince the castle staff to support a failing business, and while she accomplishes that goal it all mostly happens off screen, with the actual focus instead lingering on Bellemane's repeated failed attempts to haze the "newbie". The story is no less amusing for this distraction, but it's not really what was advertised from the preview description. Still, the story --such as it is-- remains harmless, entertaining, and even mildly informative.

If I had any slight concern in regards to canon it would be that while I enjoy the concept of the Night Vision alias, I'm rather hesitant to the idea of her becoming a *permanent* member of the castle staff. While it's all well and good for Luna to options like this to get away from the pressures of being princess every now and again by pretending to be somepony else, it's still not her "real" and as such she's basically playing pretend. Even if Luna can through her magic live a double life without neglecting her duties and responsibilities, I'm not sure it's something she should commit to so fully. That said, in this fic alone the idea is little more than a brief musing with no confirmation as to whether she actually goes through with it, so it only needs perhaps a bit more clarification.

2613707 -- LUNA'S NIGHT OFF / PRESENT FOR OCTAVIA
You know, I think I actually skipped these next two fics the first time around. Overall I quite enjoyed them, maybe even more so than Fizzy's original as they both do a much better job of sticking to their initial premise, and I also think you did a better job of conveying the idea of Luna as a role-player. Still, I'm not without concerns, though I would like to apologize if it feels like I'm giving them a harsher critique. As mentioned above, Fizzy's fic was more clearly written as a quickie one shot and so as such just has less substance to it (which is not a bad thing either). Plus some of these are more personal nitpicks and stylistic preferences than legitimate canon concerns.

--Night Vision shouldn't "cheat" with the plates. Luna specifically noted previously that while disguised she prefers to stick within the limitations of her persona. She should just take the scolding... unless of course we instead worked in a reference to Bellemane having been the one who gave her the stack of plates, since I think there is humor to be had in the running gag of Luna persistently frustrating all attempts to haze her. Though on a very minor similar concern I do think that Night Vision should be a less notably proficient as a page than Paperweight and so should lose when it comes to things like the dinner bet. Not that the immortal alicorn couldn't easily win if she put her full effort to task, but again she is play the role here. Likewise, things like the duck should indeed be something bought in shop rather than enchanted since it is supposed to be a gift from Night Vision and not from Luna. That said, the curio shop could still be very obscure, maybe even half-way across the world, and the item itself might be a bit more expensive than what could actually be afforded on a page's salary (or rather more so on the salary of a page that also had normal living expenses to limit their available luxury budget).

--I'd forgotten Paperweight was a unicorn, though briefly going back to Court Musician I confirmed it. I guess maybe I remembered her as an earth pony (or maybe pegasus) because I can't, recall her ever casting a single spell, not even basic levitation. What I'd never been aware of at all though, was that she's apparently got a pink mane and orange coat; the exact same color description as Pageturner... yeah, that's not gonna help me in keeping those two straight at all -- kinda hoping that's a mistake.

--The phrase "good night" is still very awkward sounding when used as a greeting. It really should be "good evening, regardless of the actual hour of the night, or maybe "fair night". I understand your reasoning, and maybe it does make a little sense from a strictly in universe perspective to the ponies of the court, but as a human reader in the real world it still just sounds awkward (even being very much a night-owl myself), and I know I'm not the only one who thinks so.

--If we canonize this fic we might want to make it more clear that Luna is wearing shipping googles in regards to Paperweight and Octavia, unless you really did intend to develop them along that path, though personally speaking I think it's better to just leave them as good friends. However, on the subject of shipping, I did enjoy the staff trading obviously made up rumors that Octavia and Luna might engage in the occasional interment liaison.

--Also, much as I enjoy Paperweight and Night Vision playing off each other, I don't think I'd want this to become a main focus of future fics as I think it very mildly undermines the Octavia and Paperweight dynamic which hasn't really gotten as much development as I think it deserves. I know the musician and the page are supposed to be friends, but I can't recall them having had much screen-time used to actually illustrate it, which is pretty important considering they're very much an Odd Couple.

--At the risk of going off subject, and even though it's only briefly referenced in these fic, I still don't think it makes sense that Octavia plays for Luna at EVERY sunset/sunrise. She's the official COURT musician not Luna's private music box. While Octavia certainly appreciates having Luna's ear, such routine private performances just seem... well, beneath her, and beneath Luna too for that matter. Moreover, I think it's narratively restrictive since other authors might want to write a scene involving Luna at sunrise/sunset that doesn't include Octavia. I think the whole musical accompaniment should be reserved for special occasions when the act of sunrise/sunset is part of some public ceremony or festival, though some private practice sessions leading up to the event would certainly be expected as well.

So then, now that I've been over both the whole "trilogy" in detail. My overall thoughts on canonization…

My greatest concern is in the notion of Night Vision "overtaking" Luna. I like the presentation thus far, but I think it needs to remain clear moving forward that the persona is just something Luna uses every now and again and that she isn't living a whole second life through it (and it should be even more clear that she's not shirking her royal duties). We should also keep in mind that, as mentioned in the first of this "trilogy", Night Vision isn't supposed to be the only such alter-ego, though it certainly could have become Luna's favorite.

To that end I think her position as a page should be more generalized rather than being assigned to the staff any one specific noble. It's a big castle with an equally big staff so it's easy for one pony to get lost in the shuffle so that no one notices that she only "works" once or twice a weak (or even only monthly); maybe with an additional perception glamor so that even ponies that notice don't find it weird.

Linguistically the narrative should also be subtly different when presented from Night Visio's perspective and Luna's (even though they are actually the same pony). Now of course we aren't trying to hide her identity from the reader, but while in disguise the flowery titles that are usually used to convey Luna's power and age should probably be underplayed in favor of just portraying her as an ordinary pony. That doesn't mean they have to be dropped entirely, as there is certainly good humor in the contrast between such grand titles and mundane activities, but that should be the exception rather than the rule when in her guise as Night Vision.

Also, and on an entirely personal note; I think Night Vision should be a Pegasus, if only for the symbology related to "freedom" and flight. Then again maybe that's just me, and there is certainly symolbogy as well in the notion of more mundane nature of an earth pony, though that sort of also has the potential for unfortunate implications as well.

Lastly and perhaps on an even personal note, I mentioned previously that when deciding whether or not to canonize something it's important to consider what a fic adds to the setting. Well, for me what these fics added, or rather reinforced, was the notion that Bluebood is a pompously self-important ass.

I'm going to play the bad guy now...

I'm okay with Night Vision for a single fic, but...well, something just seems off about Luna having Night Vision become a castle regular, even if just on a once-a-week basis like Emeral suggested. I dunno, maybe it's just me, but Luna in the past has been shown to be fairly grounded and, well, basically not prone to whimsy.

I dunno, again, maybe it's just me and the fact that whenever I write her it seems to be exclusively so that I can, at the very least, give her a headache.

2627023 I should probably go over Luna's Pet Project and try to polish it a little more then...

2628016
I actually mostly agree. So I'm sorry if in my attempt to be somewhat conciliatory on the issue I made you feel singled out as the bad guy. I'm perfectly fine with leaving these fics non-canon, and like I said, just because some of our readers choose to incorporate these fics into their own personal fanon is no reason we should feel obliged to make them official canon.

I suppose we could, consider compromising stance that there is a pony on the castle staff by the name of Night Vision, but that as a canon rule it should never be clarified whether or not she actually is Luna in disguise (which would mean among other things no FPP on her). That way it can remain a more subtle reference that is only meaningful to people who've read these fics. Still, that could potentially just confuse the issue, so maybe not.

2628029
For what it was originally written as its just fine. No one expects great things from a one-shot quickie written for a monthly event thingy.

2628016 Whimsy is good, and I bet aspirin doesn't work on alicorns...

Still, like I said I don't want my vote to count on this, and I think Grass' shouldn't either..

2628016 2628242
On further thought, it strikes me that maybe we could instead make this trilogy "canon" with the so-called Sexyverse. I could certainly see the Luna of that variation on the setting being more whimsical, and it would also eliminate my concerns over Paperweight wanting to be more than just friends with Octavia.

The Sexyverse is just like the Lunaverse... but sexier. That said, the "canon", such as it were, is much looser... just like the ponies. Characters can still be largely expected to act like themselves (if somewhat more exaggerated) and can reference past experiences, however, there is no specific chronological order to events which may at times even be contradictory. Readers are advised to just sit back, relax, and try not to think too much about any of it.

-- In the Heat of the Moment
-- I'll See You Soon
-- Luna's Pet Project
-- Luna's Night Off
-- A Present for Octavia

This could also make a good place to "quarantine" fics that want to exploit other questionable ships that while entertaining in their own right, have potential tonal consistency issues with the core Lunaverse, like Bloodpie and Scootiara, or the occasionally toyed with but never written concept of Noterlee.

2628242

Whimsy is good, and I bet aspirin doesn't work on alicorns...

At the risk of ruining the joke, I feel I should point out that if alcohol can, there's no reason why aspirin shouldn't, as long as the quantities are large enough.

Hmm...we need IAH here for voting purposes...

2628256
Yeah, I can see "Sexyverse" Luna as more whimsical as well, especially since overall I think the stories I've written for the Sexyverse fit with the tone of the actual show much better (if not the age range).

2628016 : I don't know if I agree with that. We've seen Luna pretend to be random non-alicorn ponies (LNLD), and even trolling other ponies when in that form (LNEPD, Filthy Rich's chapter, when earth-pony Luna is all, "So, is Luna the best pony ever?" and Filthy is all, "No, my wife is--oh crap, you're Luna, up oh.") Luna letting her mane down like that is also referended in 'Concert for Ponyville,' where Luna as Night Vision is balancing pillows on her head in a competition with other castle pages. Luna also specifically said she liked the idea of working a job and earning money in LNLD (after Trixie asked for the money that she'd given one of Luna's forms to post flyers around town back), so I think it's plausible she might make a split to act as castle page occasionally.

I think it's okay for Luna to decide that part of her can just have fun with her friends sometimes while the rest of her handles the 'running the nation' bit. As long as she doesn't shirk her royal duties, what's the harm? It also provides her a way to keep in touch with the common pony instead of spending all her time on the throne, isolated by rank.

2628256 : I don't really have any problem with Scootiara goofiness or Bloodpie (and I think P&B 1 was even canonized) in the main canon line, and of course while the ship Notilee isn't canon, they were definitely married in the past thanks to copious amounts of cider ("Old Friends") and may or may not be married now. (I'm leaning towards 'Equestria has a common-law separation so they aren't married anymore', but I think it's better to leave it ambiguous in case we want to reference it later)

As for Octiweight, I think it's more along the lines of Paperweight idolizing Tavi a little bit. After all, Tavi is a commoner who--through incredible effort and skill--managed to rise to such heights that she not only can play gorgeous music but has been recognized by the princess herself. Paperweight--who not only loves music, but also likes what she does and likes the princess and all that--sees Octavia having basically won at life, and additionally being friendly and kind to her, and is kind of awed. So it's less love and more infatuation. From Tavi's side, she's not romantically interested in Paperweight, but just likes her as a dear friend.

To that end I think her position as a page should be more generalized rather than being assigned to the staff any one specific noble. It's a big castle with an equally big staff so it's easy for one pony to get lost in the shuffle so that no one notices that she only "works" once or twice a weak (or even only monthly); maybe with an additional perception glamor so that even ponies that notice don't find it weird.

I do think this works fine. She's ostensibly rotated around and just assigned to Night Light once or twice a week or whatever, and no body notices she isn't really there the rest of the time.

As for Octavia performing at every sunrise,sunset, I'm reminded of Louis XIV's morning 'levee', a highly scripted ritual in which the King rose, dressed, groomed, breakfasted, etc., all while his ministers and courtiers played specific parts. If a king can go to those lengths, I don't think it's unreasonable that Luna too has a traditional ritual for sunrise/sunset, even if it's just Octavia performing while she does it.

That said, I don't think it's ironclad--if Luna is traveling, for instance, she probably doesn't take Tavi with her, and if Luna is busy or harried (or feeling antisocial) she might just raise them on her own and be done with it. (Similarly, Louis XIV sometimes rose early and did stuff before going back to bed, then rising again for the levee). But I do like the idea that, as a general rule, Luna moves the planteary bodies to a musical soundtrack... I think she'd like that, both as a pony who values mystery/ritual/etc., and as a pony who genuinely likes Octavia.

2628224
2628812
2628256

We should probably come to a decision on this... I'd like to refer to them later if they're canon, so a firm decision either way would be useful.

If we need a fifth person to break the tie, as RDD said above, we should also figure out who to ask. (I'd vote for either RK or ThatGuyVex, the former because he can be very critical, which was the original reason RDD wanted IAH, IIRC, and the latter because RDD said that he wrote the single best Lunaverse story, in his opinion, and since he's in charge, that should count for something.)

Alternately, since the fics wouldn't be too earth shattering either way, we could do a poll on the main board or something.

I'm in favor of asking RK or Vex to break the tie. Or both.

3050372 3050501
I'd actually thought this matter was already resolved, and reading back over this thread I'm not really seeing any tie. Fizzy abstained on the grounds that he can't judge his own work. I said I was potentially fine with adding these to canon, but not without reservation and some things that I thought needed to be changed or clarified) -- HOWERVER-- when RDD said he'd prefer not to canonize them, I pretty much agreed... or rather said that even though I wasn't oppesed to canonizing these fic, I didn't really see any great need to either.

Even assuming G&C isn't following Fizzy's lead of abstaining, that leaves the final vote at 1 in favor and 2 opposed.

That said, I think we could maybe still work with the compromise I suggested. Which is that these fics remain non-canon, but that other canon fics can make references to a pony by the name of Night Vision being on the castle staff and who has done the same things she does in these fics. However, in canon it should never be specified that Night Vision is a disguised Princess Luna. Also, the character should probably only ever be mentioned in passing and never play a prominent role.

We already have other aspects of pseudo-canon like this, such as Raindrops and Trixie excercising together event though Heat of the Moment isn't canon.

3051890
This is actually what I favor as well. But I'm willing to bring in a few more voters if'n we feel we need to.

3051994
I'm perfectly willing to bring in extra voices as appropriate, but I'm not sure this is a situation with that actual need.

The quorum is supposed to be able to make decisions on it's own, and we should be cautions of anything that might undermine that concept. We should of course always be open to the opinions of the larger group, but in the end we are the ones who make the final call. If we actually had need of a tie breaker, then of course it would be sensible to bring in someone else, but as of right now we don't really have a tie.

3051890
3051994 I'm perfectly fine with Night Vision being namedropped from time to time, like Octavia listing her as a friend.

Maybe we could do a 'Sexyverse' folder? It might help spur more 'sexy' stories.

3143372
I'm all for putting together a "sexyverse" and/or pseudo-canon folder, think I even mentioned as much earlier in this thread.

3143400 3143372
Go right ahead if you like.