You'll notice that, unlike many groups, this one doesn't have rules posted on the front page of the group. There are some story/folder submission guidelines listed in the forum, but for the most part nothing is written down about what expectations for behavior exist. As a result, a lot of people have been engaging in rather rude behavior, and are resistant to the idea that they're even being rude.

Edit: There actually is a rule for the forums, but it was buried and not visible. It can be found [url=https://www.fimfiction.net/group/199035/sunset-shimmer/thread/194076/on-the-topic-of-group-threads]here[/url]. That rule [i]will[/i] be enforced, and the spirit of that rule forms the basis of these changes.

So expect some changes over the next few days.

I've already made/recreated a few threads designated as "clutter" reducing threads. At the moment, these forums are a mess. There are tons of short-lived, frivolous, and redundant threads. A new user stepping into the group would rightfully be overwhelmed, trying to find anything of use or value in the pile. This is because quite a few members have been treating this place as a clunky chat room instead of as a forum.

A forum is a place to share ideas, discuss them, and so on. The goal of starting a new thread should be to share an idea, with the goal of stimulating conversation and discussion. A forum is a place to seek information. It should be useful to the person making the post, those reading and participating in the post and discussion it provokes, and even after a thread dies, it should remain as a useful reference that others can read through days, weeks, even years later. A forum is a permanent repository of information. "Disposable" communication should happen in mediums more suited to that style, such as chat programs or Twitter.

Some topics come up more often than others. Rather than trying to feel like a special and unique snowflake, seek an existing thread on your topic and read it. If it fails to satisfy your desire for information, then it would be preferable that you revive the dead thread, and post your question. If the thread is locked, look for others to see if one isn't locked, and post in it. In contrast, if you see an existing thread is "dead" do no necropost. If a thread is several days old, then chances are that everyone involved in the conversation is finished. Posting a reply to someone is generally seen as annoying. This is more true the older the thread is. Most people don't care to get notifications in their inbox because of some year(s) old thread some "noob" decided to post in. Only post in a "dead" thread if you have specific questions about the original topic, not as an attempt to join a long-dead conversation.

In all cases, the goal should not be to generate tons of threads. We should aim for few threads, each with a lot of quality in them. Less threads to sift through, and a lot of value in each makes for a more useful forum. In that goal, I am going to be doing some housecleaning. I will be locking a lot of old threads, and linking to them from the appropriate declutter thread.

Now, as the title suggests, this change is so far unofficial. I encourage you to voice your opinion about the change. As I will only be locking threads as part of the cleanup, the changes can be undone if it proves to be entirely unpopular. There will also not be any warnings, bans, deletions or anything of the like involved in this. However, that may change. If this becomes an official rule, it will be enforced.

[code]Edit:
Some points that have been brought up so far or seem to be unclear:
At the moment, users are allowed to post whatever they feel like, and want things to remain this way.
This is untrue. In fact, at the moment, you are supposed to read through 9 pages of threads, see if any titles look like your idea, read them to see if they are pretty close, and post in them instead of making your own new thread. Also, this brings up some subjective room for arguments, because what I personally feel is "too similar" likely differs from yours, and this could easily result in a lot of conflict.
Lots of new threads = activity, and this is a good thing.
This is also untrue. New threads are good if they are a new topic that people are interested in talking about. Posting "new" threads that are duplicates of old ones is spam. It is annoying.
Activity is not only new threads. Posting in existing threads is also activity, even if it doesn't generate feed notices and draw as much attention. Everyone would be better served if existing threads were used to their fullest, rather than buried in mountains of copies.
These changes will be too restrictive/complicated.
Actually, they are less complicated. Rather than digging through 9+ pages of umoderated forum detritus to make sure you are in compliance with the current rules, having a stickied thread makes it easier to post whatever your idea is. Simply click the appropriate thread, write your post. Don't even need to come up with a title anymore. If you're truly lazy, this is pretty ideal for you.
This style of posting will cause the forum to die off and become inactive
Untrue. Several groups on Fimfic use styles like this, and do fine. Forums outside of Fimfic have been using tricks like these to help keep clutter down, and remain lively for years. Some forums/groups on Fimfic have become inactive, but you can usually trace that to the fickle nature of the fandom, not to the forum management style. Sunset Shimmer, as a character, is a narrow topic. Material for discussion about her is necessarily more narrow than, say, "LGBT" or "Politics" or "Shipping in general."
The forums are the group.
This is also untrue. The group, like all Fimfic groups, serves the primary purpose of helping users find stories that match their interests. The group's main purpose is to help readers find stories about Sunset Shimmer. The forums are a tack-on to that, and frankly a rather limited and poor forum software offering.
Furthermore, if you, Person A, enjoy conversing with Person B, there are far better ways to do so than a character forum. If the community wants to keep in touch, there are Skype groups, Facebook, and other social media that offer far more elegant and easy ways to keep in touch with each other.

If you take nothing else from these proposed changes, then understand this. Spamming the forums with duplicate threads is the problem, and that is going away one way or another. This idea may not be the way it happens. But the "community" as it stands now is going to change, and a lot of the culprits of this misbehavior are not going to be happy. Take some time to browse through the 9 pages of threads, and take a look at the names of the most common posters. Chances are, those people are the cause of the problem.

This discussion is not, and will never be "we want to be able to keep spamming." Arguments to that effect will be ignored. The discussion will be, how to best combat this problem?

4637005
If I might make a suggestion, I'd advise a formal rule thread FORMALLY listing the rules, I'm no admin, but could I possibly help with that? I'd love to help this group, Sunset is my fave character after all, and I love having discussions about her character, role, and advice for future fics.

4637024
A formal rules thread is in the works. Thank you for your concern.

4637034
Glad to hear it. That should help make sure everyone knows what threads aren't allowed, glad to see your reorganizing the way this group works though. I'd advise messaging some of the writers group admins, they have a lot of experience, so I'm sure they'd be willing to give some advice about setting up the rules.

4637005 Just wanted to say that going through the forum and locking dead threads is more or less a waste of time.

Also, if you've see the work I've done for Art for Fanfiction, would that inspire you to let me become an admin here?

4637005
4637064

Worse than that, three-fourths of my list of group threads is now locked Sunset Shimmer threads, drowning out most other groups...

--arcum42

4637077 Same.

4637005
A lot of activity is going to drop with this new enforcement. The main thing people talk about is, well, sunset, of course. Ideas, theories, questions, etc. The "clutter" you call practically makes up about 80% of the threads in here. Directing them all into a few sticky threads will likely cause a lose in activity because no one is getting many thread feeds in this group anymore. And people are a part of other groups, too, so they're more inclined to interact in those because they're getting feeds for new threads, while this just stays the same.

Also, if everything is directed into a few threads and a flame war happens, you have two options: lock the thread, causing activity to a stand still, or ban the users for simply having a dispute that would normally be giving a warning. It's easier to just lock separate threads when it gets heated, but when everything is in one thread, locking it makes all activity stop. Sure, you'd unlock it again, but at that point who would really care to continue any discussions? You could delete all the bad comments, but then that just makes the whole thread a huge clutter.

4637064
We are not currently seeking more admins that I am aware of. I don't feel the workload of this group is high enough that I need assistants.

That my activities are a waste of time is noted.

4637043
I also have a lot of experience being a forum administrator/moderator. I've done it for years on several sites.

4637087
Oh sorry! My mistake.

4637087 Uh... okay? Also, what up with the whole formal thing? Also, your "Activities" is just going through the forum, locking threads weeks old then saying they need to put basically all discussion of Sunset Shimmer, what this group revolves around, into one sticky thread that will become cluttered and eventually die out. I agree with 4637085, how is this helping the group?

I apologize if I come off as rude too.

I'm just gonna level with you, I understand what you're trying to do but specific central threads never work, they really just don't.

Nobody clicks on them to know what others said, it's always to say their own thing, it may cut down on clutter, but it's also gonna cut down on activity because if anyone wants a conversation they need to dredge their way through hundreds of unrelated topics and keep a chain going on something that ended long ago causing much more confusion because the conversation is derailed.

It may not look as nice, but letting people easily find what they're looking for is just overall easier, the story idea thread isn't going to get the feedback people are looking for because everyone's going to be clogging it with their own story as opposed to helping others.

Same with the character discussion, it's just going to be a flood of different opinions with everyone mixed up not knowing what they're actually looking for.

Again, I understand what you're trying to do, but this is going to be a much bigger mess IMO, and really just make the whole process of trying to talk about Sunset harder, especially for more pinpoint questions, like when I asked about her with Shadowrun Cybernetics.

Nobody's going to see such a specific question and answer, because that's not the focus, the focus is whatever anyone wants to talk about.

I feel this way about any thread with this kind of set up, central threads just don't work because they don't let anyone find what they need.

I have never once gotten any feedback from posting in a centralized thread, not on story ideas, not when looking for story help, and I've never really seen any help.

They just don't work IMO, because it's everyone for themselves as opposed to everyone discussing a central theme, and again I've seen it before.

What's more, someone looking for an answer will probably have an easier time looking at the titles to nine pages worth of threads, then over a hundred answers on a single one.

Again, they're good in theory, but they just don't work out, and that's talking from experience.

I can't make you do anything, but that's my two cents.

4637087 Aaand I think I might just leave the group for a bit, since apparently you're just going to ignore us. Also, I want to see what's happening in the other groups instead of unnecessary locks.

waste of time

4637077
4637079
The "dust" will settle soon. The forum was in sore need of cleaning. Nothing I can do about the dust; it wouldn't be useful to simply lock the threads without directing them anywhere. This will, hopefully, not be a repeated problem. I also don't plan to dig through the other pages of the forum, unless someone decides to bump those threads to the first page. In essence, "phase 1" of cleanup is now done.

4637085
4637096
4637098
"Things are done this way, and people are used to it." is not an argument against change.

I'm just gonna level with you, I understand what you're trying to do but specific central threads never work, they really just don't.

Except that they do.

It may not look as nice, but letting people easily find what they're looking for is just overall easier, the story idea thread isn't going to get the feedback people are looking for because everyone's going to be clogging it with their own story as opposed to helping others.

This is no different than how things currently work then. Someone posts their story idea as it's own topic, and the thread gets ignored. It behooves people to sell their ideas and make them interesting.

If someone really wants help writing their story, groups exist for that. If someone wants to advertise their story, groups exist for that. Simply adding a new story to the folders of this group is advertisement to Sunset Shimmer fans. Starting up a thread on the story is a nuisance.

Nobody's going to see such a specific question

Again, how it acts currently. Nobody is going to see it back several pages in the forum. Centralized threads do work, because after the initial "buzz" has ended, the information is in an organized place. People do read existing threads, and if they're eager for information about Sunset's character, having one thread labeled as a central place for all the forum's musings on her is the ideal place to look.

Don't worry. As part of this set of changes, I'll teach people how to properly post in centralized threads to helpfully make their posts more visible in the correct way, so that future users can make use of them.

They just don't work IMO, because it's everyone for themselves as opposed to everyone discussing a central theme, and again I've seen it before.

Again, they're good in theory, but they just don't work out, and that's talking from experience.

I've seen them work. This isn't a decision made by someone lacking experience in forums. I have over a decade of experience, as an administrator/moderator.

A lot of activity is going to drop with this new enforcement. The main thing people talk about is, well, sunset, of course. Ideas, theories, questions, etc. The "clutter" you call practically makes up about 80% of the threads in here. Directing them all into a few sticky threads will likely cause a lose in activity because no one is getting many thread feeds in this group anymore. And people are a part of other groups, too, so they're more inclined to interact in those because they're getting feeds for new threads, while this just stays the same.

I call this the "Tumblr" problem. On Tumblr, people reblog themselves at different times of day, because the situation is that followers follow multiple blogs, and many individual posts wind up being never seen due to the flood of stuff across someone's dashboard. If a blogger doesn't reblog themselves to hit "peak times" their post will likely get buried. Obviously since they're doing this, so are other people. We get a lot of literally duplicate postings, simply as an effort to deal with the high volume of dashboard entries.

Interestingly enough, as was noted by Arcum42, if someone makes a reply to an existing thread, it shows up in his dashboard. Exactly the same amount of visibility as a new thread. The difference is that the reply does not create an entry in the feed which also has to handle numerous group's forums, story-folder activity, blogs written by followed users/tagged to followed stories, and siteposts.

I firmly believe we need to cut down on the clutter, not attempt to race with others. Activity in the group will be seen on the dashboard either way, and if the group puts out fewer high-quality threads, that encourages people to keep thread notifications on so that a legitimately new thread popping up shows up in their feed as well. Further, someone who is coming from neither place, but visiting the page for the group itself, is presented with a much cleaner, friendlier, and more useful set of threads to look through.

Will this cut down on "activity" ? Perhaps. I'd like to think that Sunset Shimmer is an interesting and thought-provoking enough character that people will seek her out and want to talk about her without having their feed/dashboard remind them or draw attention to her. Relying on meta-activity of the site to draw attention at the expense of an efficient forum is not a good choice.

4637005

I think that this might just kill the forum part of the Sunset Shimmer group.

I mean the whole point of the forum is to discuss things. This may seem like a good problem solver at the time but the issue with that is nobody's going to come just to check the threads every week. I think that what this group needs is a schedule for, you know, the administrators to watch the forum.

That way we wouldn't have to worry about a lot of fights breaking out over nothing, or accidentally having double posts. There should be an inventory of you know what has been talked about previously during the week that way we can avoid repeats.

All in all I just think that there are easier ways to avoid the petty fights then making four little topic threads that we can comment on and locking threads from a couple weeks ago.

Then again this is just my opinion and what do I know? I don't run a group, I don't understand how it works but, just, this kind of seems needlessly complicated.

4637157

Don't worry. As part of this set of changes, I'll teach people how to properly post in centralized threads to helpfully make their posts more visible in the correct way, so that future users can make use of them.

You really expect a lot from people. People on the internet have short-attention spans. Why would you try teach people how to properly use centralized threads? No one wants to learn how to "properly post" in a centralized thread when they can easily create a thread, which you are denying theses people.

Look at TWG. They have TONS of duplicated threads, but it never becomes a problem for them because they know more people who are new are coming in, and it would be impossible for them to keep certain threads centralized considering just how big the group is.

The difference between the feed and the dashboard is that the feed box has a specific title, while centralized thread is the same damn thing, and no one knows what that person said unless they went through the thread and see. And like I said, people have short-attention spans on the internet, so most likely they aren't going to check it out.

I call this the "Tumblr" problem.

Newsflash. This isn't Tumblr. Things work differently.

I've seen them work. This isn't a decision made by someone lacking experience in forums. I have over a decade of experience, as an administrator/moderator.

Have any of those years been on fimfiction? Don't expect that what has worked for you on other sites will work the same way on fimfiction. Just saying.

4637210

Newsflash. This isn't Tumblr. Things work differently.

Then... we're in agreement. You advocated we do things more like Tumblr, I think we should move further away from it. This is indeed not Tumblr; it is a forum. It shouldn't try to be more like Tumblr.

4637206

just, this kind of seems needlessly complicated.

It is actually a lot less complicated, honestly.

4637385

For you, or for us?

Because it seems harder for us. Then, you know, like I said before this is just my opinion.

4637385

You advocated we do things more like Tumblr

This isn't Tumblr. Things work differently.

This isn't Tumblr. Things work differently.

I said the complete opposite of that!

And no, it's more complicated for the user base, by not the admins!

Doesn't locking down all the threads and steamrolling us into specific groups only cause more hostility to build up? I feel like this will just result in people leaving the group rather than fixing any problems.

4637396
I dunno. I think it makes it easier for us. I kept looking at new threads and swearing we've had that exact discussion not too long ago. It got to the point where I mostly ignored the group entirely.

4637460

Yeah I understand that, but not slowly integrating this was a very poor decision. I could understand this being over the course of a few months, but just throwing it on everybody it's not the way to do it.

Kind of making chaos.

Now, as the title suggests, this change is so far unofficial. I encourage you to voice your opinion about the change.

This discussion is very much one sided with only one differing opinion.

Everyone has explained why it isn't good, gone into detail and explained past experiences that showed they never got the help they needed in such a system.

A forum is supposed to be a meeting of the minds, it's supposed to exist to get help for what you want, it's something you can use to get help, not lock everything away in a single thread so that nobody gets any questions answered and it's every man for themselves.

A thread for advertising, absolutely, you just need to get your name out there, not feedback.

A thread for story ideas, not so much, you're looking for ideas and opinions on something, you need that feedback, but if everyone's just glancing over it without a second thought you're not getting any help.

An introduction thread, absolutely, just someplace to say, "Hey, I'm here, here's what I like," you don't need any feedback.

A thread for discussing the complexities of a character, not so much, especially when you wanna get to the nitty-gritty of what really makes them tick, you're not gonna get any feedback.

And again EXPERIENCES! I've seen plenty of posts with the FoE group's pre-reader threads that nobody did anything about, but if they ask for a pre-reader there's generally a response because people don't just click on a thread with over a hundred of the same thing, but with an actual thread people know what they're getting themselves into because it's focused.

And that's the main point, focus, it may look disorganized but it isn't, it's a bunch of focused parts working together as opposed to a single block that just sits there.

Yes there may be repeats, yes there may be useless threads, and yes it'll be more work, but in the end the fact that we have those little focused bubbles is the most important part because it lets people actually find what they want with a single look as opposed to reading through hundreds of posts that have nothing to do with anything.

And sorry if this is a bit ranty, it's just come on a discussion isn't, "I'm right, that's that," it's listening to other opinions, and the opinions are clearly one-sided.

4637493
There are over 1700 members in this group. Your personal experience and "side" has been noted. The small handful of people that have posted in this thread so far are not representative of the group or it's wants. This is going to take time, and I'm frankly not interested in hearing the same few people trying to be vocal and get "their side" to have it's way before a lot more people have a chance to see what's going on, think it over, and make their decisions.

No, you have not gone into detail you have asserted "this will not work" and "I've seen it not work." I see speculation about how people will behave, and assertions that other people will not like it. I see people making vague assessments of "this is more complicated."

I'll say again, "This is how we do things, therefore change is bad," is not an argument. People have been misbehaving because this group has been unmoderated. There have been people "calling each other names" sort of misbehavior, yes, but there has also been a lot of rude and thoughtless posting practices. It is going to be moderated now. Some of the behaviors you think as benign are not, and changes mean just that: changes. With over 1700 members in the group, this forum should be far, far more active than it currently is. It should be much friendlier and useful to use than it currently is. It is highly offputting in its current state, and a dozen or two people making the appearance of activity isn't the desirable state of affairs.

If these changes drive off some of the current "active" forum users because they cannot abide by behaving and being moderated, so be it. They likely would be banned had this group been properly managed from the start.

The discussion is not "will this group be left as is, or change?" It is going to change. No matter what that change is, someone is not going to be happy about it. But change will happen, and if you want to have a useful voice, I'd suggest spending it on suggesting how best to go forward with change. Because at the moment you're choosing to be left behind.

4637005
If there are going to be a stickied "Sunset Character Thread" and a stickied "Story Idea/Question Thread", then under what conditions should/could a poster make a new thread topic? Is the forum going to be just empty, except for the stickied threads?

I do agree that lately there's been too many subpar threads started by a few ppl, but I'm unclear on what the threshold is between a locked thread, a thread moved and grafted into the central stickied thread, and a thread allowed to exist on its own.

4637625
Does it need to be managed more? Sure. Does it need to be strictly dictated? Hell NO!

You're method on how the group is going to change is not yours and yours alone. You have another admin on this group who hasn't said a word yet. So don't go talking to use like you're our overload.

4637626
Now there is a useful question.

The two categories are rather broad. If it does wind up that only the small number of stickied threads are the topics people wish to discuss, perhaps another organization method would be better. I could, for example, see splitting the "character" thread into different categories, such as background, personality, and so on. But, by and large, yes. That would be preferable to aid people coming in and looking for topics of interest. A forum is not a place for disposable content like a chat program. The goal is not to create massive numbers of short threads as has been done so far. It is not suited for "short attention span" folks. Those would be better off heading to Skype or something.

Some planned threads to add to that list:
Contest/event threads which, by their nature, will be unique and require their own specific threads. Those are popular in some groups on fimfic, and would be appropriate here. If someone wishes to start a contest about Sunset Shimmer, that would be a fine use of the forums.

Prompt/collab thread (which would be another sticky, so not really a good answer to your question). Another popular forum staple.

Beyond that, I'd leave it to the community to come up with content that doesn't fit the general threads. If any of those prove to result in a bunch of redundant copy threads, they'd likely produce their own stickied thread as well. Indeed, I highly wish this forum had a merge function. That would really solve a lot of the problems.

4637665

HTPD is pretty much inactive, and Albinocorn promoted Cryo and myself because this group needs proper management and he is busy with other things.

For the record, I am in complete agreement with Cryo about her proposals.

You at least ran this by Albinocorn first, right? I think that such a drastic change would have to involve the group's leader.

4637665
Perhaps I am being heavy handed. But the problem is one that is deep-seated and in dire need of a heavy hand to fix it. Don't speak as if you not getting your way means the group is going to die off. Again, the opinions of a vocal few who dislike change is not the voice of the whole group.

4637675
And neither is yours. So don't talk like this is all official when you still have people disagreeing. And for the record, this isn't "a few." Half or even most of the people here are complaining about this new function.

It doesn't have to be this way is what you don't seem to understand. There are other ways in getting a better structure going.

4637671
Well, me and quite a few others are not happy about it. We're concerned about the activity of this group, and you lot don't seem to listen to what we have to say. How many groups do you know on this site that work the way you are suggesting? All discussions are in just a few sticky threads and any separate threads are more than likely not allowed.

4637688

And for the record, this isn't "a few." Half or even most of the people here are complaining about this new function.

Number of people commenting in this thread: 12

Number of members in the group (at time of posting): 1705

You're correct, that isn't a "few", it is significantly less than a "few". Your relative noise level does not increase the validity (if any) of your statements.

4637625

"your side has been noted, now stfu and do what i want" is not a constructive way to interact with your userbase

4637704
Don't be a smart ass. You know I mean the people in this thread.

4637675 You are a fucking idiot. That is all, good day.

4637695

AppleDash works in precisely the way we are proposing. It has done for longer than I have been a member of the site, and it is on average more and more productively active than this group is.

4637675

I get the fact of trying to make this an easier to manage group, I get that its a lot of work to run a group BUT you asked our opinion on this change and we aren't fond of it.

We ARE, however, willing to give help and other ideas to help make the group run more efficiently in a way everyone would like.

What do you want US to do Ms. Cyrosite? Write a list of our ideas and submit them to you and Albinocorn?

We don't want this group to fall, but with these new guidelines we fear it might.

Can you tell US what to do and how to help make this easier on you?

4637210

Look at TWG. They have TONS of duplicated threads, but it never becomes a problem for them because they know more people who are new are coming in, and it would be impossible for them to keep certain threads centralized considering just how big the group is.

Are you joking? TWG is a mess. I left that group ages ago because my dashboard was full of it and nothing else. It made my dashboard useless for any group that wasn't TWG. The duplicated threads over there are a huge problem, and I have no idea why you seem to think they're okay.

4637708

So do I. Don't be the smart ass who tries to tell me that less than 1% of a group should speak for the entire population.

4637720
So what? You're just going to ignore us and only assume the people who aren't saying anything are 100% okay with this? That's not how it works. That's not how ANY OF THIS WORKS!

4637716

What is TWG anyway?

4637704

that would only be valid if a larger number of people were more quietly agreeing that it's a good idea. as it stands, the only people commenting on this at all are people who either think it's a bad idea or think you guys are dicks, which means that your entire sample is giving the same result and you just don't agree with it

just sayin'

4637726 Oh but silence means they agree with this flawless plan. That is in no way retarded or could lead to the same fate as many other groups that now rarely see any activity.

4637727
The Writer's Group. I've joined it on two or three different occasions, and I quickly left each time because my dashboard was promptly rendered useless.

4637727

The Writer's Group.

4637728
To be fair to Jondor and Cryo, the forum here was a bit of a mess. Some sort of change needed to be made. At the same time, you are right in that they could be more diplomatic in implementing these changes.

4637726

I am going to ignore you from now on because you are doing nothing but throw a temper tantrum, and it is unproductive.

I'm gonna just say that I don't particularly like the change, but if it does happen I'll still be here.