Okay, so I'm opening up this thread to begin a discussion on the Random Romance reviewing process. To begin, I'd like to welcome Comrade Sparkle and Timelord Whooves to our review team! Punzil, Kid, say hello! And try not to scare them off with hazing rituals or anything.

So, first order of business: The Bean is expecting to have a pretty busy two months, and has thus relinquished control of the review process to me. Perhaps indefinitely. I want to take this opportunity to go over the review rules as they currently exist, point out a few changes me and The Bean were discussing, and then let our reviewers make suggestions.

First: the feature we're supposed to be doing is the Weekly Review. To be honest, I consider that unrealistic under the current circumstances, especially considering we've yet to meet a single deadline for this. To give us time to form a set of rules that we can all agree upon, to give our new reviewers a chance to get their feet wet, and to ease up on the pressure, I've made the decision to double that time: we're now doing reviews once every two weeks. This won't be a permanent change; it'll only last until the end of the year. By then we will hopefully have our collective acts together and be able to churn reviews out like clockwork.

To speak practically, this means that the review for October's contest winner(when chosen) will be due on Saturday, November 16.

Second: Review Orders. It's been decided that we need two reviews per story at minimum to provide what we hope will be a balance of opinions. This means that for each reviewing session we rotate two reviewers who are obligated to write reviews for that story. If you're not one of those two, you do not have to write a review at all...but you still can, if you want. There's nothing stopping any of us from writing a review out-of-turn. Just know that writing a review when it's not your turn does not give you a pass to not write one when it is!

The only exception to this is that no reviewer can write a review for his or her own story. Kinda obvious, but it needs to be said. If it's your turn to write a review, but the story is your own, someone else can volunteer or I'll draft someone.

For the October contest, I'm going to let Comrade Sparkle and Timelord Whooves do the reviews, so they can get a first go. So when the contest winner is announced, the two of you have until the 16th to PM me your reviews!

Finally, we had a template set up for the past few reviews, and it caused a little bit of conflict among the reviewers. I want to post it here so that our new reviewers can get a good look, and have a more permanent location for it. Here it be:

1.) A brief summary of the plot - review poster only

2.) List of stories pros and cons - You must have examples of both

3.) Technical critiques - grammar, do canon characters it stay in character, uses trite cliches, etc...

4.) Overall summary - no more than one paragraph informing whether or not the story has your recommendation

Now let me quote The Bean on what he'd like to see in the reviews:

I don't ever want to see "it's well-written" on a critique. I do not consider it to be valid criticism. The U.S. tax-code is "well-written" that doesn't make it good reading.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one.

Oh, and make it known that if a review contains spoilers, they will be spoiler-barred. (spoiler)replace with brackets (/spoiler).

Ditto. And now I finally know how to make those things!

I'm not so sure that a list of pro/cons should be mandatory any longer...

This one's definitely up for debate. Opinions, please!

And the reviews cannot be in 2nd person.

This one doesn't strike me as such a big deal... but it does make the reviews look more professional. For that reason alone, I cast a vote in its favor.

My only addition for now is in regards to the opening summary. I would simply urge my fellow reviewers to be a little less detailed in them, that's all.

Okay, I'm done. You all can talk, now.

My thoughts:

The summary is a fine thing, but it's going to be easy as sin to screw up. In a lot of ways you're writing a description of the story for the purposes of the review. Luckily, at least, we, as reviewers, will be able to take a more straightforward approach, and can avoid a lot of the more flowery language. I think that the purpose of the summary, in a broad sense, is to introduce the main cast of characters and the core conflict, and nothing more. Our goal is not necessarily to tease, merely to provide a proper frame of reference so that the review can have a frame of reference. A pitfall to be avoided, obviously, is giving away too much information about the story. The summary should be the very bare minimum to give the review a grounding. I would say two sentences—three max—should suffice.

The list of "pros" and "cons" seems a bit heavy handed to require. My first inclination when writing a review is to incorporate this with the also required "critiques." Requiring them in two separate sections will make it seem more redundant, blocky, and redundant. This is going to be the bulk of the review, so make sure to provide as much detail as need be.

The concluding summary serves a very different purpose than the opening summary. The first one should define the basic structure of the story. The second one concerns your overall opinion of the piece. The middle section will be all of your thoughts on the execution of story, the conclusion will be you weighing the value of it and rendering a verdict. I feel it makes sense to start this section with a very simple sentence indicating your overall opinion. Perhaps something along the lines of, "Overall, I managed to enjoy Story X despite its flaws, but I cannot promise others will be able to follow suit," or even something as simple as, "Story X is a good story with solid execution," followed, of course, with qualifying that statement.

I don't ever want to see "it's well-written" on a critique. I do not consider it to be valid criticism. The U.S. tax-code is "well-written" that doesn't make it good reading.

I wholeheartedly agree with this one.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with saying something is well-written if it is. I think avoiding that particular combination of words does nothing to address the problem I think you might be concerned with. As you mentioned, the tax-code is well-written, but that doesn't tell the whole story, so why prohibit a reviewer from saying it's well written as long as they don't cop-out and use that to replace actual critique?

Now, a question I have for spoilers: why? Let me explain my confusion. Fundamentally, we, as reviewers, are going to tread that hazy line no matter what we do. That's kind of the job. Now, tell me why we have to discuss anything that might be a spoiler explicitly? I personally feel that if we have to use the spoiler tags, we're failing as reviewers. The vast majority of people who read them, in my way of thinking, are going to do so before they read it themselves, as sort quality control measure. What do we gain from discussing something spoiler-y? If a plot-twist is intrinsic to the story in question, you can usually step around that by talking about it in the abstract. Why should we actually use spoiler tags, or better question: why should we discuss things that require spoiler tags.

Cheers,

-Comrade

2074280
Your opinion is different, and therefore wrong.

2072967
I don't have any major qualms with this, it's just the basic points of reviewing.
A brief summary of the plot, should be short and simple, I personally have a rule of not going over five sentences for this as more tends to get spoiler-y.
Pro's and Con's is one of the bases of a good review, though I admit it is sometimes hard to find any so maybe not mandatory but recommended.
"It's well written" is a compliment, not a critique, though showing points on how it's well written, adds to the critique and shows the author what he or she is doing right.

And the reviews cannot be in 2nd person.

There are people that do this? I didn't even know you could write a review in 2nd person...
Well... and make it look good...

For the October contest, I'm going to let Comrade Sparkle and Timelord Whooves do the reviews, so they can get a first go. So when the contest winner is announced, the two of you have until the 16th to PM me your reviews!

Doesn't the September winner (The Shimmering Regret of Shining Armor) still need to be reviewed? I mean, if doesn't have to be the next story reviewed, but that's supposed to be one of the perks of winning. Knowing this, maybe some of us (and I point an accusing finger at myself, a member of Procrastinators Anonymous) could start writing the review for Shimmering Regret right now, that way it's ready when the time comes.

I get the "it's well written" dislike. It brings me back to fraternity days:

"So... we're giving a bid to John Q. What's John like?"

"He's a really great guy."

I'm definitely guilty of it. Something to work on. We're about trying to become better writers, and reviewing will ideally make us better at critiquing, which will also make us better writers. Ironically, right now we seem to be reviewing the reviews.

Lots of good suggestions so far.

2074658
Yes, you would think that the second person rule wouldn't need to be said, but out of the first three reviews I received, two were in second person. Was a big eye-opener for me.

2074280
In all seriousness: every review is a product of its reviewer, and will carry their preferences and prejudices. In my humble opinion, I expect any story I read to have a minimal understanding of the English language. If you have access to this site, then you have access to the single largest repository of human knowledge in existence. There is no reason why a story should have less than at least basic grammar.

2076915
2077784

Allow me to clarify. I would only use those words as a judgement to the overall quality of the fic. It would always be followed by a thorough analysis of why I came to that conclusion. I think we're all on the same page here, really.

Okay, so I think the "No second-person" rule is generally agreed upon.

2076915

Seeing as of how I've already won FOUR TIMES, I have no qualms against letting someone else's story get the next review. Assuming I lose this month, of course, and I sorta expect to.

But if you wanna go ahead and start a review for The Shimmering Regret of Shining Armor, I wouldn't disagree. Anybody wanna volunteer to be the other reviewer for it?

2074280

Some people like to give away spoilers in their reviews. Don't ask me why, I avoid it.

Generally speaking, I think we all have a general agreement on what the reviews need to be. Let's let a set come out and see what they look like, no? I don't really think we need to make a set template as long as we're all on the same page, but we'll see; I may post a set "Review Rules" board, if it becomes necessary.

2077784

Oi, have you received any PMs for votes?

Okay, so the latest set of reviews have come. Personally, I'm rather pleased with the results. I'd like to take this opportunity to ask everyone to give any opinions regarding the reviews this time around; what did they like, what needs improvement? This isn't aimed at Comrade and TimeLord personally, but at the general style of how the reviews were handled by all involved.

One thing I wanted to note - I forgot to mention it before - is that I personally prefer to have the reviews written and shared in GDocs. Sending reviews in a PM works fine, but if some back-and-forth discussion about the review needs to happen it becomes very tedious, and that's exactly the kind of thing GDocs excels at.

My second thing is a point of style. Personally, whenever I was out there writing and trying to get comments and reviews, nothing annoyed me more than people pointing out my specific grammatical mistakes for the knowledge of the mass public. I don't mind general statements, but specifics or individual notes always annoyed me.

For example, I find that

The author needs to keep a closer eye on his spelling.

is much nicer and less intrusive than, say,

The author kept misspelling "luscious".

My immediate response:
"Yeah, thanks for pinpointing my flaw so that everyone will know I'm an idiot, even after it's been fixed. Jerk."

Or

There was one sentence where a word was misspelled.

My immediate response:
"Yeah. One sentence. Either it's a typo or I missed it. That's an editing or typing flaw and has nothing to do with my actual writing!"

So yeah. Personally, I think that mentioning these kinds of errors should be as general as possible, and if I absolutely must tell people about the specific, individual mistakes they made in their story, I'll do it in a PM so the author doesn't look like a literary buffoon to the general public. I see it as polite.

Now, that's just my personal view of things, and I've had plenty of people argue me on the topic with some fairly solid points. I want your opinions on this. I don't intend to make it an official rule, but I did want to point it out and get some feedback, maybe have people keep it in mind.

Alright, that's my spiel. Anybody else?

OH! Almost forgot: it's time to assign new reviewing duties. Obviously, Comrade and Timelord are free this round 'cause they just wrote reviews, but you two are always free to write reviews in addition to the others, should you wish to. Since Fiction Fan and Danger Beans are both coping with ridiculous levels of busy right now, that leaves Death the Kid and Punzil504 to handle the reviews! I'd do it myself, but can't, because the story being reviewed is my own.

The story for this round is the winner of the September contest: The Shimmering Regret of Shining Armor. Once this one is done, we'll finally be up-to-date on our contest winner reviews. Le w00t.

Which brings up an entirely new topic: how to pick the stories for later review? But I'll hold off on that topic until we hit the next discussion point in two weeks. Meantime? Happy reviewing!

Which brings up an entirely new topic: how to pick the stories for later review?

By the time the reviews for "Shimmering regret" are due, the November Contest will be pretty much over. If it would be preferable to review another story in the meantime while the votes are being tallied, it was suggested by Danger Beans that any of the contest submissions be eligible for review. We could pick one of the submissions that did not win between July and October. Mine are off limits, though. Even one of mine.

Back to "reviewing the reviews," your suggestions are perfectly reasonable. We're about to tear apart someone's story, their baby, intentionally trying to find things wrong with it in some cases. The least we can do is take steps to do this in a polite manner.

2188305>>2078128>>2077784>>2074658

Just taking this opportunity to let everyone know that I'm pushing back the due date for the latest review to Wednesday, Dec. 4th. Why? Because it's Thanksgiving week, and I'm sure everyone (well, most everyone?) has better things to do with their time at the moment. You know, that whole...family thing everyone likes to talk about this time of year.

I'll probably push December's review date back, too, what with New Years and all that.

2262343

That's a load off my mind...

Although I should have started my review back when I originally mentioned starting it four weeks ago, naturally I'm at crunch time for both it and the November contest (self-fulfilling prophesy )

So I get a few more hours to try to piece together my incoherent jumble that is an attempt at Babs x Spike...

2275047>>2078128>>2077784>>2074658

Okay, everyone, it's time for another batch of reviews. Nobody contributed to last month's contest, and though I got a PM from someone wanting to do a late entry (we'll see how that turns out), for now we'll do a review on one of our older stories. We've yet to establish how to choose non-winning stories for review, so for now I'm just gonna pick one. For the sake of handling the oldest first, I'm gonna reach waaaaay back and grab a story from out very first contest: Cafe Luna. Why that one? 'Cause it won second place, that's why.

Punzil and Death the Kid were our last reviewers, so they're out this time around. Because I don't want the same pairs reviewing every time, I'm going to jump in on this one. That just leaves TimeLord_Hooves and Comrade Sparkle (since the other two admins are still out of action). Let me just get a coin... *flips coin*

TimeLord, you're up!

The next batch of reviews are due on Saturday the 15th!

As an aside, yes, Death the Kid completely ignored the agreed template and whatnot. Part of me is annoyed by this, but I've known the guy for a few months now (he's the first person I met on FimFiction that I would now consider a friend), and if I've learned anything about him, it's that trying to argue him into anything he disagrees with is like skating uphill with only one leg while trying to pull a tractor trailer. I gave up ages ago. I've written him off as the black sheep of the reviewers - at least we can say that it keeps things interesting, no? Besides, we asked him to do this, not the other way around.

This leads me to a couple fresh topics. First: extra reviewers. At the moment we're doing fine with what we've got, but some day we might try to expand (if this site ever kicks in like we'd prefer). Before we ever ask for more reviewers, I'm thinking we should come up with some kind of criteria for acceptance. I'm really happy with those we now have (even The Kid, he amuses me), but now that we've got enough people together I think it's time to actually discuss acceptance standards, and if they're even necessary. Opinions?

Second thing: crime and punishment. Right now I'm talking strictly about reviewers: missing deadlines, breaking agreed upon rules, that sort of thing. I've sorta shot myself in the foot, because I've been passing a blind eye to The Kid's antics, but I would still like to establish some sort of rules for this kind of thing. I want to set up a Group FAQ, and this is one subject I'm interested in addressing. Before I offer anything, though, I want the opinions of others, so fire away!

2319677
Good news Asaran!
Holiday shopping season is starting to wind down, so I'm starting to get a little free-time again. I think I can safely say I'm open for doing a review as well. Fiction Fan elected not to take part in the reviews from the beginning, but we could do one. If we're going by seniority, then I guess after Cafe Luna would be Movements of Fire and Shadow, correct?

Hey, that's great! And see, I didn't turn the group into a Sombra-esque dictatorship. And this time I only thought about maiming the plebes. Self control, baby!

Actually, in keeping with my promise at the beginning of the month, I left November's contest open for an extra week for anyone who wanted to give it a go, and we got one entry: Soft Soil, Bab Seed by ILurvTrixie. Only entry means automatic winner, who gets automatic review, yes? So I think it should be next on that principle.

I'll setup the next reviewing period on Sunday (that's when the current review period ends). I'll assign one to you and another to Comrade Sparkle, who lost last period's coin flip.

Welcome back!

2375352>>2275047>>2078128>>2074658
My apologies for being a day late. Yesterday was already set to be very busy for me, and then my cousin went and had her baby, cancelling half of my plans in an instant. I don't mind; the kid was cute, after all.

ANYWAY, time for the next batch of reviews. As mentioned before (see the last comment), my extension of the contest deadline last month bore fruit in the form of a lone entry: ILurvTrixie's Soft Soil, Bab Seed. A lone entry means an instant winner, so that's the one we'll be doing this time around!

As some of you may or may not know, we finally have our devoted founder at least somewhat back. The Bean has offered to write a review, so all that's needed is to select a partner. Comrade Sparkle, you lost the coin flip last time (literally), so it's your turn now!

Obviously, people are gonna be busy with holiday stuff. As such, I'm not making the reviews due until January 5th, which is also the due date for the December contest. This way nobody's feeling the pressure.

And did anyone else notice that we've already got a contest entry for December?

Wanted to bring up one extra thing, get some opinions. When we first started the RRReviews, it was The Bean's intention to have them on a weekly basis. When I took over this gig, I switched to a bi-monthly basis, just so that we could all get into the swing of things. I had intended to resume the weekly reviews next month.

But now I'm hesitant. I'm convinced we could do them without difficulty. The problem is story count; let's face it, we're not getting a dozen stories with each contest. If we go at a weekly pace, it won't take long at all to run out of stories to review, and then what will we do? I'm starting to think that we should stick to a bi-monthly review rate, just to ensure we never run out of stories to review.

Opinions?

2399582

I agree with that... unless/until submissions pick up, we're probably better off reviewing two per month.

2399582

Indeed! I've thrown around the group with some of the people I am in contact with. I'm trying to get some more active members. We'll see if that bears fruit. Until we are reliably getting at least 4 stories per contest, I can't see any reason to go for weekly reviews.

Wait.

Wait...

This is a 13.5k story.

I was hoping to have an entry for this months contest.

EDIT: I am at least optimistic about the quality of the story. Only one missed comma in the description, and the premise seems very reasonable.

2401049>>2401412
Well, that's three votes, my own included. I suspect we'll be sticking to the bi-monthly rule, at least for a little while.

Sparklelord (I bet you don't get that reference! ), I do appreciate the activities in our favor! This group could use some more active members. I wish I weren't so terrible at that kind of promotion. Or any kind of promotion, actually (there's a reason I don't have many followers ).

I've been working hard on a story for December. I shouldn't be all that far off from finishing it. In fact, I'd be done already if it weren't for the copious amount of interruptions I've been getting this past week. But I think I'll get points docked for not writing a pure romance...

Oh well, them's the breaks.

2402479

I find Romance to be the best possible wingman. Romance on its own is hard to write, and doesn't provide very many compelling conflicts. It is, however, the best at providing additional tension and tone to external conflict. If you're going to be docked for writing a pure romance, then I should be docked as well. (Assuming I ever manage to write this accursed thing)

And I wouldn't put too much stock in follower count. Such meta features mean something different to each person who hits the button, so to ascribe some universal meaning to it removes that personal factor. As for self-promotion... I've found that make sure it's available in pertinent groups, and that should cover it. If you try to 'push' a story you'll only really earn rightful scorn. (If you don't agree on that last point, feel free to join the shameless self-promotion bureau)

2402521
Good lord, no! I can't promote myself 'cause I definitely have shame! Self promotion just feels...wrong to me. If people are going to read my stories, it's most likely through word-of-mouth from those who have already read them.

I suppose you're right about the pure romance topic, though. Come to think of it, I can list on one hand the number of stories I've written that would qualify.

For those who have limited themselves to only reading my stories posted in this group, they're gonna see something entirely new: a fight. And I don't mean two ponies shouting at one another; I'm talking a no-holds-barred brawl. I'm gonna have fun, and I'm looking forward to opinions!

2401049
2401412
2402479
I really miss Fiction Fan. When she was still active, we'd get between 10-20 new members each month. Girl's a promotional guru.

Anyways, we can always change the rules when such a time comes that we receive 4+ submissions each contest. For now though, bi-weekly sounds good.

2404173

For what it's worth, I'm glad to see you around, Beans. (ohgod that was the name of one of my cats, I think I'm going back to calling you Mr. Bean)

2404180
Everyone addresses me differently. Fiction Fan calls me 'Danger', Celestias Paladin (and by extension, everyone in the Protect Celestia forums) calls me 'Beans', and Asaran refers to me as 'The Bean'; it's like eating an Oreo: there's no wrong way to do it.

P.S. I'm aware of the missing apostrophe in Celestias Paladin's name. It's some kind of weird law he and the other paladins have.

2404218

I have my thoughts on the Paladin and his group. I'll leave it at I'm a part of his group, share one common ideal with the group, and don't not respect him.

In any case, you can expect me to call you The Bean or Mr. Bean.

Wait, can you even have an apostrophe in a username on this site? It might just be that.

2404306
2404218
I just say "The Bean" 'cause that's what popped into my head, and it amuses me. I'm trying to use it just like The Cheat's name is used in the Strongbad emails (if any of you know about those). Extra laughs, at least for me.

And I have no idea who this Paladin fellow is. I imagine that we may cross paths (and weapons) once the Equestrian Civil War starts, but till then, paint me clueless.

2406749

Suffice to say there exists a group called "Protect Celestia", and the creator of said group is a gentleman by the name of "Celestias Paladin".

2404306
Okay, you're a grammar nerd, well I'm a style nerd.

I have my thoughts on the Paladin and his group. I'll leave it at I'm a part of his group, share one common ideal with the group, and don't not respect him.

Double negatives are confusing. "I don't disrespect" or "I don't dislike" would work perfectly well instead.

And I like both the Paladin and the Paladin's group, but some of the people on there take the "defense" of a fictional character waaaaaaay too seriously.

2415104

The double negative is on purpose, and carries additional information. 'I don't not respect him' means something different than 'I do respect him'. Further, my intention was not to say 'I don't disrespect him', nor was it to mean 'I don't dislike hime', though those are true as well. I meant exactly what I said, and the way I said it, confusing or not, carried my exact meaning.

So the reviews for the last story are in. I'm gonna hold off until Thursday night (or Friday afternoon) to start the next batch of reviews, as I'd like to go ahead and put the December winner down for the reviewing. I'm currently coming up with a small and simple system for determining who reviews when, so that nobody reviews more than anybody else.

Anyway, don't forget that you guys can vote, too! (Is trying to witnesses a voting war. )

My vote for the next regular story to get reviewed goes for Inquisitor M's "Movements of Fire and Shadow"

2560201
Are votes coming your way? As per the usual, I'm getting none.

But from the mere two public votes, I'm starting to think heartbreaking got trumped by playful.

Movements of Fire and Shadow definitely deserves a second look.

It was well written.

2560201
2563103
Movements of Fire and Shadow was pretty good. In fact back then I considered InquisitorM a very serious competitor. It saddens me that we never see him in this group anymore.

Okay, so it's time to assign reviewers for December's winner. As you all know, Danger Beans and Comrade Sparkle offered the last reviews, so they're out. I was going to assign myself to this one, but I already had an in-depth discussion with ILurvTrixie about how I felt, so I don't think it would be productive to him. As such, I'm pitting Punzil and Death the Kid together again.

Eventually I'm going to not have you two working together.

Reviews are due Saturday the 25th!

In the meantime, I wanted to ask another query and see what everyone thought. This is the first time since my early victories that we've had someone win two contests. When I won, The Bean let me choose the next pairing. So my question is simple: should we extend this option to ILurvTrixie?

2571985
ILurvTrixie doesn't deserve it. Because of him I must now read and review 30k+ words, of which I will pay attention to the 5k that actually matter to the story, and enjoy the .1k where I wasn't contemplating stabbing someone.

2574138
He speaks!

Pardon me while I go and check to see if there's any snowballs down in Hell.

2574150
Say hello to my father while you're there.

2575635
Ehh, he booted me out of the place. Too brony.

2576787 ...You're sending the guy with a hatred of everything to review my sunshine and lollipops story.

Evil.

For whom, I'm not entirely sure.

2577360
Meh, it was his turn. Gotta give every reviewer his time.

But there might be a little evil involved.

When I won, The Bean let me choose the next pairing. So my question is simple: should we extend this option to ILurvTrixie?

I'm in favor of extending the option.

Just thinking out loud (figuratively) about the next two months:

February will likely have an increased number of writers interested in making some form of Hearts and Hooves Day themed shipping story.

March has St. Patrick's Day (which could make an interesting theme in Ponyville... Berry Punch?), as well as Derpy Day (3/1/14)

Which would be the better month to give to ILurvTrixie?

2578438
I propose we let him decide that.

Also, Derpy Day?

2580043

Derpy Day

It's apparently been a thing the past three years.

2580400
Huh. Learn something new every day.

2580400
2575635
Just wanted to remind you two that the reviews for Edited Details are due tomorrow!

2580400
2560201
2404180
2074658

So I messaged to Death the Kid this morning about his late review. He apologetically informed me that he's getting his rump kicked by schoolwork and may not be able to do it at all. This being known (a little late, no? ), I'm asking if anyone wants to volunteer to review Edited Details ASAP to take his place. Whoever does will not have the review counted in my quota list (yes, I really have one). I will arrange the next set of reviews as soon as we've settled this little matter.

2699545
And you can't write one why?

Though in all seriousness, I can do it if no one else volunteers. I'd rather not, because I have a history of enjoying Lurv's work. But if no one else steps forward, I will.

2701497
I'm only hesitant to add my own review because Lurv already knows exactly what I like and don't like about his story. We've discussed it thoroughly in PMs, so I don't see how my writing a review would be beneficial to him.

2701497
I guess nobody else is gonna volunteer. You're up, Beanie!