Help! My Heart is Full of Pony! - Consciousness and Free Will · 4:23am Jun 29th, 2018
I want to take a moment to discuss a topic that I never thought would be relevant to My Little Pony - a question that has troubled ethicists and science fiction authors since the idea of artificial intelligence was very first conceptualized - a question that has challenged philosophers and theologians since the dawn of man: what is sentience? How do you define that which makes us human?
In the Mean Six, Queen Chrysalis makes copies of the Main Six using hair, and trees, and magic. These alternate versions of the Mane Six are not unlike the “discorded“ versions of themselves from the Season Two premiere. They think and act in direct apposition to the elements that the characters would ordinarily represent, and since they were in opposition to those elements, the Tree of Harmony went medieval on them.
I mean seriously, it bucking destroyed the Mean Six in a way that can only be described as nightmare-inducing.
This has some problematic implications. If the Mean Six were, in fact, sentient, then that means that the Tree Of Harmony - the embodiment of all goodness in Equestria - committed murder, or at the very least, an execution.
How do we sort this out?
Let’s start with the most obvious thing – the Mean Six have free will. They use it to defy Chrysalis.
These bark ponies are not creations set to run on an automated magical algorithm, or to emulate pony behaviors like a computer program might. These are beings who actually experience emotions, and have original thoughts. They improvise. They act out of fear, (Evil Rarity’s paranoid hoarding). They act out of rage. They also experience joy, even if it is a sadistic form of joy that is had at the expense of others (Evil Fluttershy).
Most importantly, they pass the Turing Test. Nopony who interacts with the Mean Six can tell that they’re actually talking to animated tree bark golems.
Now that we’ve stated the obvious, let’s throw in the counter arguments, and watch it all get complicated!
While it is clear that the Mean Six are capable of free will, they still might not truly be fully capable of moral choice. The Mean Six come prepackaged with personality characteristics antithetical to the elements that they are supposed to represent. The question now becomes: are they capable of choosing good, and if not, what does that make them exactly?
One can reasonably argue that, right here on earth, many of humanity’s greatest killers and monsters were shaped by both nature and circumstance. They’re still human.
Is everyone capable of reform? To what extent do they have free will? To what extent do the Mean Six have the power to make moral choices? To what extent do any of us? Can we really use “free will” as a rubric to determine that which makes us sapient? It is, after all, pretty murky water to begin with. Brushing aside the nature/nurture arguments, and even the reasonable assertions that our experiences make us who we are, there are still many people who cannot, for myriad reasons, achieve sapience. They are still human.
Equestria is a lot simpler, though. I would say that, in the context of the My Little Pony universe, that which makes someone truly sentient, and fully possessive of a truly conscious soul, is the capacity or potential for reform.
That’s just how Pony do.
Even immortal demons who are living embodiments of chaos can be made to see that friendship is magic – that the bonds we have with one another are stronger than the wedges that would drive us apart. It is only through our love for one another that we can create something greater than ourselves.
So let’s get real. Bearing all that in mind, we can probably infer one of two things:
1) that the Mean Six do not possess regular souls capable of reform. The Tree of Harmony reacted to their presence not because it can’t stand bickering, but because their mojo was in direct opposition to its own - like setting off an electrical charge. They are beings of pure Un-friendship.
2) that the Mane Six are, in fact, fully sapient, and that the Tree of Harmony was simply willing to defend the greatest power in Equestria by any means necessary.
I want to clarify that this is an intellectual exercise. Obviously, the Tree of Harmony was justified in its actions regardless. It acted in defense of itself and others. The entire issue is just a great big old pile of questions. Can we even discuss this at al without stopping to ask ourselves: Is the Tree of Harmony conscious?
What do you think?
-Sprocket
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Can a tree actually commit murder though?
It certainly seems the tree has agency in some way. It's actually rather interesting. The way it takes care of things, and the way it allows others to use it's elements.
Up until this point, we always wondered if there was an intelligence with how it chooses those who can use it. But now we see the tree actually respond and take action on its own. I almost want to say Lovecratian with how it went about it. If Cthulhu was an elder god of love and friendship and hid in a shape of a crystal tree.
4891555
Devil's Snare, Whomping Willow, Venus Fly Trap...
4891584
Audrey II.
"They think and act in direct apposition to the elements that the characters would ordinarily represent"
I assume you meant "opposition" there?
...Annoyingly, after look at this for a bit, going away and doing something else, then coming back and looking at it for a bit again, I still don't seem to be thinking of any really substantive comments or items of discussion. Despite this being the sort of thing I've had some quite good discussions on in the past, right now, nothing. Oh well. Perhaps something will come to me later...
4891555
Only if the tree itself possesses moral agency. It's entirely possible that the Mean Six, regardless of whatever they could chose themselves, were simply the victims of the magical equivalent of standing next to a flagpole during a thunderstorm.
Very nice summary and extrapolation on implications, as always.
I also always feel bad for defective clones when they are inevitably retired at the end of episodes. It's probably not going to happen but I could very much see them return in the season finale. Darklight Sparkle was truly a match for poor dumb Queen Bughorse.
4893343
Mathematically, there *are* still between 1 and 13 Pinkies left out there, some more defective than others.
4891730
Strong point there - the tree may have just been reacting semi-instinctively, like a wild animal reacts if you like it enough.
Overall, however, I think it actually boils down to my usual answer: "Yes."
keep in mind, we have NEVER seen the Tree act on its own to cope with a threat before. The closest it ever came was creating the chest. It seems, particularly from Celestia's inability to control all 6 elements properly, that the Elements only work properly when they *are* in harmony with the bearer. When that happens, what do they do?
They burn everything that is disharmonious about the target.
Nightmare Moon is cleansed of the taint.
Discord is effectively killed, inasmuch as an immortal being can be.
Tirek is burns away to nothing and returned to Tartarus again, probably only because of the moderating force of the Bearers.
The Tree has no such moderation. When it acts, it does so directly, purely to eliminate the source of pain.
At the same time, the Mean 6 are probably utterly incapable of reform without *extensive* work. They're basically a sextet of psychopaths, devoid of empathy. But, unlike Discord (a psychopath whose main drive is satisfying his gnat-like attention span) or Starlight (a sociopath who legit *wants* to overcome her lack of morals), the Mean 6 are made up purely of disharmony. While, given time and effort, they likely *could* be trained to care (like Discord), there's not enough there for the Tree to even try to salvage, and not enough power to make it stop before the irritant is *dead*.
Discord became a pearl - the Mean 6 for swallowed and shat out along with the rest of its dinner.
4907762
Mathematically? Did I miss something? I'm lost.
I just hope the clones get back. I feel like they really telegraphed the tree being corrupted. Also otherwise the ep would be really throwaway. Way too competent foil for Chrissy.
4907921
We know there is a minimum of 1 Pinkie clone still in the wild.
Pinkie refers to bring in a room with 50 clones watching paint dry - short of counting the escaping spirits, no reason to doubt her.
1 - 0 gen
2 - 1 gen
10 - 2 gen
20 - 3 gen
20 - 4 gen
10 - 5 gen
2 - 6 gen
Minimum number of clones to allow for 50 clones: 64 + original
Considering that, canoncally, at least 1 escaped, there is no reason to believe that other low-generation copies, still capable of at least some grasp on consequences and thought beyond "Fun!" would have escaped as well.
Which means 1-14 escaped clones, allowing for 50 clones in the paint drying test.
2 first generation copies, capable of hiding amongst society and taking on jobs and stuff, even if they don't like it.
10 2nd generation copies, probably capable of handling menial jobs or ones that play to them having fun (DJ, party planner, baker, etc)
And 2 3rd generation clones who are completely valid space cadets, only caring about fun of some sort.
Any more than this would result in them being too obvious. But 14 of them, particularly if guided by the two most stable clones, could hide in a large enough city, where similar looking ponies are fairly common and ponies ignore each other most of the time.
One like Manehattan, maybe?
4908431
I've got to admit I still don't have much any idea how you arrived at those specific numbers, but thanks!
4908646
I could show my work, but not from a tablet. DR
Tomorrowish.
4909042
Okays.
4909199
Okay, so here goes.
Pinkie is Gen 0.
She copies herself twice, so there will never by more than 2 Gen 1 clones.
However, those clones copy themselves *each time* when the next set does so - that's how we get our exponential growth curve.
So, each trip through the pool after the second trip adds the "totals" of the last trip through to the next generation (G1 total is added to G2, G2 total is added to G3, et al), giving us:
1st trip: 1 G1 Copy = 1 total.
2nd Trip: +1 G1 Copies = 2 G1 Copies = 2 total
3rd Trip: +2 G2 Copies = 2 G1 Copies, 2 G2 Copies = 4 total.
4th Trip: +2 G2 copies, +2 G3 copies = 2 G1, 4 G2, 2 G3 = 8 total.
5th Trip: +2 G2, +4 G3, +2 G4 = 2 G1, 6 G2, 6 G3, 2 G4 = 16 total.
6th Trip: +2 G2, +6 G3, +6 G4, +2 G5 = 2 G1, 8 G2, 12 G3, 8 G4, 2 G5 = 32 total.
7th Trip: +2 G2, +8 G3, +12 G4, +8 G5, +2 G6 = 2 G1, 10 G2, 20 G3, 20 G4, 10 G5, 2 G6 = 64 total.
So there's the math. Tricky to track, but if you just track each trip separately, it works out better. And so, like I said - anywhere between 1 and 14 surviving clones!
4909557
Thanks for the explanation on the number of clones, I suppose that checks out.
But your number of surviving clones (only one being strongly implied by the show as far as I'm concerned) seems to be completely arbitrary to me.
4913273
Actually, I *did* make an error in my logic, which I tracked through when rewatching the episode yesterday, which inflates the possible number of "runaway Pinkies" even further. However, we'll leave that aside (there could be up to 46 of them, hypothetically, if we take Pinkie's "50 clones" literally.)
Going through the episode again, it *is* possible that there's only 1 runaway out there. We have 8 rows of approximately 5 pinkies each on the floor, plus an unknown number up in the balconies. So there *could* be only 48 clones, one of which got away, only to be replaced by Pinkie when she was tossed into the crowd, leaving only 1 runaway. Freely admit that it could easily be only 1 runaway. My listing of the maximum was based on the assumption that Pinkie was *right* about there being 50 clones plus herself in the building when Twilight started summarily executing them, and the exponential growth curve that starts after the Pinkie *stops* going through the pool, and the three clones *start* going through on their own. A curve that rapidly gets up to either 48 clones (absolute minimum) or 96 (at which point, if there were any more than that, it would mean that approximately half the clones got away, which is a horrifying idea that doesn't bear thinking about!)
Unfortunately, they actively stymie any efforts to pin down exactly how many were sent back by letting Twilight zap them in small groups. But we know that there were approximately 40 on the floor (counting rows and columns, multiplying out - you *know* Twi would be sufficiently OCD that she wouldn't have wanted any uneven rows if it could be helped), and at least 2 in the balconies. Could just be the two that we saw get sent back from them, could be more. could be a *lot* more.
So, if we assume 48 clones (any fewer and we don't have enough to account for the clones on-screen at the same time in the group shot), a minimum of one that *had* to have escaped based on canon, and a minimum number of clones in the balcony, it could actually be up to 6 escapees, the two first-gen clones, and then as many 2nd gen as wandered off after them. Certainly more manageable than 16 of them!
You're right though, the show only confirms one, and hasn't implied anything more than that. It's just the mathematical extrapolation and what we saw in TMPP to tease out a maximum, since we know that there was a minimum of 41 clones sent back to the pool (39 on the floor, and 2 in a balcony.)
If anybody wants to watch the episode and try to pin down a more exact number, knock yerselves out. This is silly as is.
4913358
Okays, thanks!