In Honor of International OTP Day · 1:42am May 5th, 2012
Since today is International OTP Day by proclamation of the great AbsoluteAnonymous, I'm going to talk about Twilestia.
I'm a shipper. I enjoy reading shipping, and I enjoy writing shipping. I'm not one of the sorts that has a couple of pairings that I stick to and argue for, pairings that make sense to me more than any other combination. I don't think there are any 'right' or 'wrong' ships; people (and ponies) have the potential to connect to each other in ways that no one would expect. The most unlikely couples are sometimes the best. My shipping chart for this fandom is the power set of the set of all ponies.
That said, there are ships that are easier to write and ships that are harder to write. More importantly, there are ships that are boring to write and there are ships that are a blast to write. Twilestia is such a fun ship to write that without expecting it, without really thinking about it, I found that it had become my OTP.
There are a lot of reasons for that. Twilestia is a relationship that is inherently asymmetrical; Twilight and Celestia could never be interpreted as equal partners. The age difference, the gap in power both political and magical, the teacher-student dynamic, the fact that Twilight is so afraid of disappointing Celestia in canon (Two of her breakdown episodes are centered around failing Celestia in some way). It's not a major stretch to attribute that to a sort of hot-for-teacher romance on Twilight's part, and it's interesting to explore how that immature hero worship could be transmuted into a mature (Not that kind of mature; minds out of the gutter for a moment please) relationship. It's also fascinating to explore Celestia's capacity to reciprocate Twilight's feelings, especially given the relative (if not absolute) immortality of the princess. Not only is Celestia far older than Twilight, she will probably outlive her student as well.
When I first fell into the fandom, I did not realize the potential of Twilestia. Part of that is due to my inexperience in writing; I didn't see the tropes. Part of that is due to the lack of good Twilestia fiction in the early fandom. Neither of those are problems anymore. With fics like Composure and So Be It around, we do not lack for good Twilestia. Even the best romance fic in the fandom, Romance Reports, is in the process of adding a Twilestia alternate ending.
As far as the tropes go, I've done a lot of exploring of Twilight's relationship with Celestia in Crumbling (Which wasn't shipping) and Merely a Mare (Which most definitely was), but every writer has different ideas as far as the dynamics go, and that's one of the best things about the ship. That's why Twilestia is my OTP.
Twilestia does offer a lot of interesting dynamics for relationship building. Most of the fun of shipping for me is the personal engagement of the characters involved and examining the growth and development of the characters' relationships.
I'd have to disagree with you about Romance Reports though. I have a lot of gripes with that fic, but I'd rather not turn someone else's blog into an argument thread over it.
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99565
I don't mind, I love arguing.
99572 I really don't like hijacking threads with arguments without notice. I've already had to deal with one moron trolling me because of I don't even know why.
If you're up for it though, I can oblige a bit.
Spoiler warning to anyone who hasn't read Romance Reports.
The main thing I disliked was that everything in the story felt like a vehicle to get from one clop scene to the next. Several other issues sprang up as a result of the clop. Notably, was the scene with Twi and RD. A simple pep-talk is not going to make up for inexperience in bed and with RD it did exactly that. That would have been more believable if Rainbow had under-performed, but you can't just have bad (or even mediocre) sex in a clop fic apparently.
Another problem I had was how utterly slutty many of the characters were. Pinkie apparently fucked anything she wanted, Twilight was an exemplar of a slut, Cherilee put out really fast for a new relationship, Rainbow was the typical "I want to be a slut but just haven't done it yet" character, and Rarity was just slutty enough to get the story moving.
The main plot point was also little more than a contrivance to kick the story in the 'right direction.' We (the readers) literally get info dumped that Twilight kissed Luna at some important event. Her motivations are barely explained and we never get any real backstory for why she started crushing on Luna.
I will say that the author did a fantastic job of making me despise Luna with every fiber of my being. The story just came off as massively depressing having to watch Twilight's happiness get utterly destroyed several times over.
That's what I got off the top of my head.
Twilestia is my OTP primarily because of how obvious it is in the show, at least from Twilight's POV.
Fans, though, can do things with it the show never could.
Not only are the nigh-inescapable inequalities between Twilight and Celestia interesting hurdles to deal with, they also make the very idea of the relationship that much more compelling and happy endings concerning them all the more satisfying as a result. One wants these two, who clearly hold a truly deep affection for each other, to work out despite the many problems they have to overcome--problems that simply don't apply to other pairings--and the end result can be as glorious as it is beautiful (or creepy/depressing, in the case of So Be It). Or, if not, one could write something like A Warm Summer's Evening and still make it work.
99611 Wow. Sooner or later I need to get around to reading that.
Don't forget about Much Ahoof About Nothing! BCS is really slow about updating it, but it's gearing up to be a nice Twilestia, true to her writing style.
99617 It's mildly depressing to be convincing someone to read something I don't like. I will warn you that it can be a very depressing story. Most of the drama comes at the expense of Twilight feeling depressed about her decisions. I know plenty of people have enjoyed it, but I can't agree that it is a good story. Also, it is very clop heavy, so take that into consideration.
99651 I've been avoiding it for some time but was going to read it eventually anyway, so don't feel bad.
Yours is the first negative opinion of it I've ever seen so the unconventional perspective is welcome.
I can enjoy clop if it's well-written (I love Like Fine Wine). I don't know if I'd ever write it and I have one pet peeve with it (horn fluid. Just...
) but I'm not opposed to it.
99611
>The main thing I disliked was that everything in the story felt like a vehicle to get from one clop scene to the next
Well that's the nature of the beast. Romance Reports deals with both the emotional and the physical aspects of relationships and sexuality, and most importantly it covers the intersection of the two; it couldn't do so without the sex scenes.
>A simple pep-talk is not going to make up for inexperience in bed and with RD it did exactly that.
RD, to my understanding, was not inexperienced in bed. She was inexperienced in relationships. It was the emotional connection she felt with Twilight that caused her to have doubts, the same as the situation with Rarity. It wasn't a matter of not knowing what to do, it was a matter of being too nervous to do it.
>but you can't just have bad (or even mediocre) sex in a clop fic apparently.
Did you not read the last sex scene with Cheerilee?
>Another problem I had was how utterly slutty many of the characters were.
They seemed only slightly exaggerated to me, but I live in a really liberal area, and it would never occur to me to use the term 'put out' or 'slutty' for that matter. Suffice it to say that I've taken things faster than Cheerilee and Twilight do in a long term relationship before, and I would have no objection to doing so again.
> we never get any real backstory
Not every event relevant to a plot needs to be explicitly shown. It's discussed and considered more than enough that we can understand what happened and why. Starting the fic from that event would have been more than unnecessary. It's abundantly clear that Twilight cuts loose at more or less the first opportunity in her life and has a primarily physical schoolgirl crush on the first pony who she really considers someone she ought to like.
>I will say that the author did a fantastic job of making me despise Luna with every fiber of my being
Luna is no saint, but I see her as a sympathetic character. Part of that is that from nearly the beginning, I had my Twilestia shipping goggles on, so I thought that from Luna's perspective, she had been randomly kissed by Twilight, a pony she didn't really know all that well, because of some alcohol-induced foolishness. Twilight then immediately fixated on Luna, despite the alicorn's lack of genuine in the unicorn, and attempted to pursue a relationship despite having given little or no thought to whether the feelings were genuine or sustainable. If you look at it through Twilestia goggles, there's also the perception that Twilight's act was one of channeling her feelings for Celestia into goal that was (in her estimation) more attainable than that of jumping from student to love. Luna is trying not to steal her sister's student away, while at the same time attempting not to permanently alienate her. The way Luna handled it was underhanded, there's no debating that, but I do believe that the princess had a noble goal in mind when she used Twilight's infatuation to force her to examine and learn about her own sexuality. In doing so, Twilight grew as a person and even found happiness in the end. If there's a lesson in Romance Reports, it's that there's no way to learn about love except through heartbreak; you can't read that pain in a book.
The story spoke to me because I've felt that pain, I've been confused about my sexuality, I've made poor decisions, I've hated women I once adored and fell into tedious routine and lost love because I didn't understand that the initial flame of passion isn't all there is to a relationship, that it's not always easy and sometimes you really need to work to keep a relationship from falling apart. Romance Reports resonates true because I've been in many of the places that Twilight was in that narrative and Sleepless really seems to understand how it feels. Of all the shipfics I've read, Romance Reports is the one most like real life, because it's not romanticized. It's about need and desire and hate and dealing with the consequences of royally fucking up, and maybe, just maybe if you're lucky finally finding someone that you can connect with, that you can forgive and that can forgive you, and doing your damnedest to keep them even when it doesn't come easily.
99675 I have a tendency of disliking certain things that the majority of my peers enjoy with gusto. I can expound upon my issues with it if you want, but I can't promise not to spoil anything if you want complete answers.
The clop in the fic is better than most you find. My main issue, as I mentioned, is that the clop is the driving force behind the story. In my experience, clop always detracts from a story's quality in some way, even if it isn't apparent at first glance.
99697 Ah, real responses. Please forgive me if I sound harsh, I get emotional during debates.
Well that's the nature of the beast. Romance Reports deals with both the emotional and the physical aspects of relationships and sexuality, and most importantly it covers the intersection of the two; it couldn't do so without the sex scenes.
>I would disagree. You do not have to see the sex to understand the importance of it. Minor descriptions of the passions of the act without any graphic detail would have more than sufficed. If that were the case I would have found it slightly less silly and most of my gripes would be moot.
RD, to my understanding, was not inexperienced in bed. She was inexperienced in relationships. It was the emotional connection she felt with Twilight that caused her to have doubts, the same as the situation with Rarity. It wasn't a matter of not knowing what to do, it was a matter of being too nervous to do it.
>I recall RD saying "I've never done this before." How do you get more inexperienced than that? Her nervousness was because she was inexperienced and did not want to disappoint Twilight.
Did you not read the last sex scene with Cheerilee?
>I read everything, but this was months ago. Forgive me if I don't recall every tiny detail. The point is still a valid mark against the RD sex scene, even if it is over-generalized.
They seemed only slightly exaggerated to me, but I live in a really liberal area, and it would never occur to me to use the term 'put out' or 'slutty' for that matter. Suffice it to say that I've taken things faster than Cheerilee and Twilight do in a long term relationship before, and I would have no objection to doing so again.
>This may be an issue with my morals and/or mentality. Just to clarify what I mean by those terms, "slutty" is referring to an individual who puts a heavy emphasis on sexual activity often to the point that it can become the focus of a large portion of their life/relationship.
*However, this ties into my main point. Would things have gone that quickly if the clop scenes were not a heavy focus of the story? I doubt it would it have. The story had a fairly slow pace to it and I think that without a desire to press to the next sex scene there may have been a better build up of Twi and Cherilee's relationship prior to their first sex.
*Pinkie seemed to just want to screw because it was fun and RD seemed to end up the same way after her night with Twilight. Rarity felt strange to me. Really, the only reason I can find for her to be lesbian is to drive the plot. I think that the story would have been no worse if she had remained hetero instead of being closeted. It just felt more like Rarity was taking advantage of Twilight and RD in order to add more drama.
Not every event relevant to a plot needs to be explicitly shown. It's discussed and considered more than enough that we can understand what happened and why. Starting the fic from that event would have been more than unnecessary. It's abundantly clear that Twilight cuts loose at more or less the first opportunity in her life and has a primarily physical schoolgirl crush on the first pony who she really considers someone she ought to like.
>I can agree with the general statement here. My main concern is that it felt like a contrived method to start a clop story. I'm not saying the story should have started at that point, but having more reasoning behind Twilight's sudden feelings would have alleviated the issue of it feeling random. I would not have cared if the story had actually been pure clop instead of trying to mix clop and genuine narrative. This was basically a case of telling and not showing.
Luna is no saint, but I see her as a sympathetic character. Part of that is that from nearly the beginning, I had my Twilestia shipping goggles on, so I thought that from Luna's perspective, she had been randomly kissed by Twilight, a pony she didn't really know all that well, because of some alcohol-induced foolishness. Twilight then immediately fixated on Luna, despite the alicorn's lack of genuine in the unicorn, and attempted to pursue a relationship despite having given little or no thought to whether the feelings were genuine or sustainable. If you look at it through Twilestia goggles, there's also the perception that Twilight's act was one of channeling her feelings for Celestia into goal that was (in her estimation) more attainable than that of jumping from student to love. Luna is trying not to steal her sister's student away, while at the same time attempting not to permanently alienate her. The way Luna handled it was underhanded, there's no debating that, but I do believe that the princess had a noble goal in mind when she used Twilight's infatuation to force her to examine and learn about her own sexuality. In doing so, Twilight grew as a person and even found happiness in the end. If there's a lesson in Romance Reports, it's that there's no way to learn about love except through heartbreak; you can't read that pain in a book.
>And I despise those who toy with others feelings. Moral lesson or not, there is never an excuse for stringing someone along like Luna did to Twilight. You can learn about heartbreak just as well by being rejected right away by someone. Being toyed with and manipulated is cruel and makes things worse than they otherwise would be. Luna did more than hurt Twilight with her little game. She hurt Braeburn, and most of Twilight's friends by manipulating Twilight the way she did. Not to say that just kissing someone out of the blue is right, but a simple 'no' from Luna would have prevented a lot of hurt feelings. The whole deal with Luna playing the "i win either way you choose" situation felt like a massive ass-pull to not have her character be totally irredeemable. Just because Twilight grew as an individual as a result of Luna's manipulation does not make Luna any better morally.
*I've been manipulated by loved ones before and let me tell you, it sucks. I may be better as a person for enduring and outlasting it but I would never want to go through it again. Nor would I wish that upon anyone else. Manipulation is, at its core, emotional abuse. Nothing is good about it. Just because I learned certain things because of it does not mean I could never have learned those same things in a healthier way that was less painful. It also is not a justification for the one who hurt to to get away with it.
The story spoke to me because I've felt that pain, I've been confused about my sexuality, I've made poor decisions, I've hated women I once adored and fell into tedious routine and lost love because I didn't understand that the initial flame of passion isn't all there is to a relationship, that it's not always easy and sometimes you really need to work to keep a relationship from falling apart. Romance Reports resonates true because I've been in many of the places that Twilight was in that narrative and Sleepless really seems to understand how it feels. Of all the shipfics I've read, Romance Reports is the one most like real life, because it's not romanticized. It's about need and desire and hate and dealing with the consequences of royally fucking up, and maybe, just maybe if you're lucky finally finding someone that you can connect with, that you can forgive and that can forgive you, and doing your damnedest to keep them even when it doesn't come easily.
>Yes reality sucks, I know. I can't say I've dealt with those issues personally, but projecting yourself onto the story only means the author used evocative narration. It does not excuse every fault and it does not make it perfect. For you it may have been reaffirming, but to me the whole thing was abysmally depressing. Not metaphorically, I mean literally depressing, physically and emotionally. Watching someone get torn up, emotionally destroyed, manipulated, abused, and toyed with is not fun or entertaining. I've lived through all of that abuse and I did not find this to be inspiring. It only served as a reminder of bad times. I already know other people have gone through shit in their lives like I have, I do not need a fan fiction story to tell me that. Being too realistic can be as bad as being too idealized for a story. Again, the moral, to me (as one who is considering this as a reader), felt forced. It tried to redeem Luna through a cliched contrivance and was honestly the only way the author had to make a non-depressing ending and tie up the loose end with Luna. The fact that Celestia did precisely nothing about her sister abusing her own student made things even worse. The idea that "she can do what she wants" is atrocious. No moral person should stand by and let someone abuse and manipulate someone else, especially not someone they care about. The only "lesson" I learned is that manipulators always win.
I only read it all the way through because I needed a damn resolution to all the bullshit Twi was going through.
"The fact that Celestia did precisely nothing about her sister abusing her own student made things even worse. The idea that "she can do what she wants" is atrocious. No moral person should stand by and let someone abuse and manipulate someone else, especially not someone they care about."
I don't know if it's appropriate for me to chime in on this as I haven't yet read RR but I've known the gist of its plot for a while (now considerably clarified by the data presented here) and unless there's an explanation Hyzaku overlooked (I'm just being as fair as I can given my outsider's perspective, Hyz) I can say this much without hesitation: that is not only incredibly fucked up (maybe in the RR world it runs in the family?) but so beyond out-of-character for Celestia she might as well be another -lestia variant called Antilestia. She would never stand by letting Twilight, of all ponies, hurt and/or be hurt by others for the sake of satisfying anypony's whims. No, "They're all rational, consenting adults so she has no right to interfere with what they want to do with their sex lives." is not a reasonable counterargument in Twilight's case because she's not being rational.
99840
>I would disagree. You do not have to see the sex to understand the importance of it.
I think it would have been harmed by being a case of telling rather than showing.
>without a desire to press to the next sex scene there may have been a better build up of Twi and Cherilee's relationship prior to their first sex.
Even with the clop focus, there was very good development of Cheerilee and Twilight's relationship in comparison both to Twilight's earlier sexual encounters and arguably in comparison to the average shipfic.
> Really, the only reason I can find for her to be lesbian is to drive the plot.
I don't see why there needs to be a reason for her to be lesbian any more than there would need to be a reason for her to be straight, and there's certainly nothing wrong with using a decision like that to add more conflict to the narrative.
>having more reasoning behind Twilight's sudden feelings would have alleviated the issue of it feeling random.
The entire point was that there was no genuine reason behind Twilight's obsession with Luna. Her feelings weren't based on anything real.
>This was basically a case of telling and not showing
I definitely disagree with this. An event or aspect of a story can be 'shown' without ever being actually shown. Consider the contents of the case in Pulp Fiction or the diamond heist in Reservior Dogs or the professor building the time machine in Summer Time Machine Blues. Things don't have to show up 'on screen' to be shown; there's a level of implication that is essentially showing for literary purposes.
>And I despise those who toy with others feelings.
Even so, there's a difference between a bad character and a poorly-written character.
>Being too realistic can be as bad as being too idealized for a story.
I'll grant you that.
>but projecting yourself onto the story only means the author used evocative narration
Which is rare enough in fan fiction that authors that are able to do it competently are to be treasured, and it seems like you projected yourself onto the story as much as I did. I've never been manipulated maliciously, so I did not attribute Luna's actions to malice.
99979
It's very clear in the narrative that Celestia does not approve of what Luna is doing. The only scene in the early part of the story where Luna and Celestia are in the same room is more or less the most tense scene in the whole story, and the implication is that the sisters have not been in such disagreement about anything since Luna became Nightmare Moon. She cannot, however, simply command either Twilight or Luna to cut it out without very likely alienating both of them. It is very often the case in an abusive relationship that the abused will side with their abuser over an outside influence that they see as 'interfering' or not understanding the 'true' dynamic of the relationship. It's never possible to force your adult friends to do what you want, even if it's in their own best interest, and they're likely to resent you for trying. Celestia does what she can to encourage Twilight without antagonizing her. It's a shitty situation, but the whole story is about shitty situations and making the best of them.
100023 Nothing is gained by actually seeing the graphic descriptions other than sexual arousal, that is the point of clop scenes. Nothing would be lost that could not be described in a less graphic manner. If you don't agree then it is moot to argue this point further.
I never said their was a lack of development between Twilight and Cherilee, only that I felt the initial build up and lead in to sex moved faster than it needed to. This is again, back to my point about the focus on sex in the story. If it was less of a focus it would not have happened as quickly and we could have seen more early romantic development instead of romance after lust. This is more evidence of Twilight becoming obsessive over sex by this point than anything.
Nothing wrong with being lesbian, sure. I just didn't like how it was used in Rarity's case. The way she was used as an introductory sexual encounter for Twilight seemed silly. It could have just as easily been Pinkie who was very open sexually, instead of turning Rarity into a closet-case and forcing, not only more drama from RD and AJ, but also as a reason to have Twi fuck RD. Rarity was very much a manipulator, just not to the extent of Luna. She was nothing more than a stress device for the story.
No reason for her feelings was the reason, ironically. For the story to work there had to be no reason for her feelings. Why is that a good excuse? Just because the author only left himself one way out doesn't make it a good choice. The reader is simply forced to accept that Twi is being stupid. This is the number one problem with most romance and shipping stories, a lack of explanation for the involved feelings. Feelings do not just appear magically one day, they are the result of events that culminate into something. If you can't even explain a basic motivation for your lead character then you need to try harder. That we never get any explanation about Twilight's motivation to even kiss Luna is a missed opportunity to draw the reader in and immerse them.
I say the same of the sex scenes, yet you dismiss that.
Nothing further on that point.
One agreement.
If you've never been manipulated then you don't know how cruel it is. There is nothing positive about it. It is pure selfishness, the desire to control someone else because you can. Manipulators enjoy what they do, they revel in it. They will beat you down emotionally until all you know how to do is give in. There is nothing redeemable about that when the manipulator isn't even sorry for what they did. You see Luna a sympathetic, I see her as the rotten bitch who nearly destroyed someone's life. You don't do what Luna did to Twilight and just laugh it off as a test of character. If anything, the fact that she tried to lampshade her horrid actions makes her even worse. That Celestia didn't even try to stand up to her sister is revolting. It is damn near impossible for the manipulated to stand up to the manipulator without outside support. Celestia could have been that support. Sure it would have hurt her relations with her sister, but if someone is reveling in the act of hurting others sometimes you need to be a damn adult and do the right thing. Relationships can be mended, but emotional scars can sometimes never heal properly. Love is hard, and sometimes you need to make sacrifices for it. Not standing up to Luna only proved the limit of Celestia's commitment to Twilight. From personal experience, in that situation, the only right thing to do is risk burning some bridges. If the ones you are helping are genuine friends, they will forgive you in time. If not, you can at least know they are better off without their abuser. And if the bridge is burned with no result, then isn't it better to have tried then to passively approve by doing nothing?
My point for that is that I feel like the author was dismissing how despicable Luna was as a plot device. If you, and others, can ignore that then fine, enjoy your "realistic" romance and just sympathize everything into pointlessness. I've yet to meet anyone who sees my side of the Luna argument and I don't expect to anytime in the foreseeable future.
"The entire point was that there was no genuine reason behind Twilight's obsession with Luna. Her feelings weren't based on anything real."
Then what were they based on?
100031
"It's very clear in the narrative that Celestia does not approve of what Luna is doing. The only scene in the early part of the story where Luna and Celestia are in the same room is more or less the most tense scene in the whole story, and the implication is that the sisters have not been in such disagreement about anything since Luna became Nightmare Moon."
All of which means absolutely nothing if she doesn't do anything to stop it. All the tense scenes in the world can't change that--but this knowledge would/will dilute much of the tension for me. If there was some legitimate reason she was unable to intervene--something literally keeping her from doing so--then it could have been really tense: she wallows in frustration and helplessness before Luna, trembling with her burning need to do the right thing.
"It is very often the case in an abusive relationship that the abused will side with their abuser over an outside influence that they see as 'interfering' or not understanding the 'true' dynamic of the relationship."
On the other hand...
"It is damn near impossible for the manipulated to stand up to the manipulator without outside support. Celestia could have been that support."
I'm biased (Twilestia > any other Twilight pairing), but I think canon supports me: Twilight would easily Celestia's side over Luna's. At this point, though, I'll just have to read it and decide for myself.
Also...
"The entire point was that there was no genuine reason behind Twilight's obsession with Luna. Her feelings weren't based on anything real."
Then what would there be for Celestia to not understand? Would it really have been so hard for Celestia to make that argument?
---
"She cannot, however, simply command either Twilight or Luna to cut it out without very likely alienating both of them."
She's done that before: banishing Luna for a thousand years. Yes, she might be as reluctant to do it again as she was back then, but she's certainly capable of severing her relationship with Luna in the name of the greater good and enduring the emotional pain that follows.
As for Twilight, that wouldn't happen. Twilight is far too afraid of disappointing her.
100202
>Then what were they based on?
Displacement of Twilight's feelings for Celestia.
To quote from the fic:
>All of which means absolutely nothing if she doesn't do anything to stop it
The intentions of an act are not necessarily the same as the results of that act. Celestia could intervene in one of two ways: by forbidding Twilight from seeing Luna or forbidding Luna from seeing Twilight. Twilight's emotional maturity in this fic hovers around the late teens/early 20's region; it's not unreasonable to expect that an attempt to force Twilight away from Luna would be worse than unsuccessful. Keep in mind that as far as Twilight is concerned, Luna is her one true love. If you love someone, think about them when you consider these questions: How you would have felt at that age (or even now) if your parents or another authority figure had forbidden you from seeing an individual you'd fallen in love with, and told you that it was for your own good. Would you have accepted that and moved on? Or would you have tried to get around the ban, and resented the authority for trying? What about if the authority went to the person you loved and threatened them in order to stop them from allowing you to pursue them?
Celestia was not in a position where she could just act and stop the events from unfolding. It simply wouldn't have worked. She does what she can to guide Twilight in the right direction, but decisive action would only cause harm.
>Then what would there be for Celestia to not understand? Would it really have been so hard for Celestia to make that argument?
Teen: But I love her!
Parent: You don't really love her
Teen: I hate you/You don't understand me/What do you know/(Generic statement of resentment)!
(Door slam)
Twilight was not an emotionally mature individual at the beginning of the fic, nowhere near it, and it's easy to stand outside a situation like that and say 'Well, obviously she should have done this, it only makes sense', but feelings rarely respond to sense.
>She's done that before: banishing Luna for a thousand years. Yes, she might be as reluctant to do it again as she was back then, but she's certainly
>capable of severing her relationship with Luna in the name of the greater good and enduring the emotional pain that follows.
She did that because her sister went insane/possessed/whatever and tried to bring about an eternal night. Since plants don't grow without sunlight, that would have killed every living thing in Equestria. You've got to admit that that's on a bit of a different scale, and Celestia might not be willing to go that far even if Twilight would have been responsive to reason.
100056
>For the story to work there had to be no reason for her feelings.
No good reason. See my response to Feather for more on that.
>This is the number one problem with most romance and shipping stories, a lack of explanation for the involved feelings.
On that, at least, we are in complete agreement.
>I say the same of the sex scenes, yet you dismiss that.
I just don't see a reason to gloss over the sex any more than I see a reason to gloss over fight scenes in adventure fics. I guess that's a matter of taste that we aren't going to ever agree on, and there's nothing wrong with that.
>Celestia could have been that support.
Celestia does provide support, in the form of advice and attempting to get Twilight to examine her own feelings and seek a relationship from somepony other than Luna. I may be wrong, but to my understanding helping someone out of a relationship like that is rarely as easy as simply pointing out that the manipulator is bad for them.
International OTP day? Hmmm, well who am I to contradict someone named 'Absolute Anonymous'?
(...aaaaannnndddd it turns out that I missed International OTP Day...
)
Very interesting write-up on Twilestia including the reasons for why the ship might be interesting. I was aware of these points but really didn't consider them before in terms of story material - possibly because I've had so many things grabbing at my attention that I hadn't considered giving these points more serious consideration. Still I bookmarked So Be It and will bump Composure and Romance Reports up on my reading list. Particularly the latter based on your descriptions of the story, which have already caused me to paused to reconsider some story ideas I had been churning in my mind.
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"She does what she can to guide Twilight in the right direction"
Well, alright, I was mistaken. At least she does something (I wouldn't have demanded she do something and succeed in driving them apart. Even if she failed at least she would have tried, but I was under the impression she did nothing at all), so her dilemma has meaning. Speaking of that, when I was talking about the banishment I wasn't suggesting Celestia would banish Luna again for something like this: the punishment would vastly eclipse the crime. I was simply pointing out that she's severed her relationship with Luna before, for a good reason. There's no reason she wouldn't burn that bridge again in a different way (Luna is still corporeally present but doesn't speak to her for the next couple of eons), if she felt she had to.
"I just don't see a reason to gloss over the sex any more than I see a reason to gloss over fight scenes in adventure fics."
I agree with Hyzaku that graphically described clop is entirely self-serving, but I also agree with your point here because Hyzaku's point is moot in itself. If a clop scene detracts from another aspect of the work in some way, that's a failing on the writer's inclusion and execution of the clop, not an inherent problem in clop itself. There's no reason to include graphically described clop in a story but there's also no reason not to include it.
100261 At this point, I think we've hit the brick wall of debating. The things we have left are not going to be easily changed in the other's perspective. It's nice to flex my mind on a debate now and then, but I'm quite done now. I have no interest in digging up info from RR to make or back up my points further.
As for the abuse, yes it isn't easy to just point at the problem. That doesn't mean it is the only option you have, especially when dealing with family. If you haven't been through it, I don't think I can explain it to you. Just as the story struck a nerve with your past it struck one with mine, a really bad one. Seeing the abuser get away clean, even after the abuse is over really strikes the wrong tone.
100442 "Well, alright, I was mistaken. At least she does something (I wouldn't have demanded she do something and succeed in driving them apart. Even if she failed at least she would have tried, but I was under the impression she did nothing at all), so her dilemma has meaning. Speaking of that, when I was talking about the banishment I wasn't suggesting Celestia would banish Luna again for something like this: the punishment would vastly eclipse the crime. I was simply pointing out that she's severed her relationship with Luna before, for a good reason. There's no reason she wouldn't burn that bridge again in a different way (Luna is still corporeally present but doesn't speak to her for the next couple of eons), if she felt she had to.
"
That is my point about Luna and Celestia. The situation is very different when dealing with family. There are more choices to make, and more actions you can take. If your sibling was abusing one of your friends, would you really just stand on the sidelines? Doing so is cowardly and tells the abuser that there is nothing wrong with their actions. Celetsia should have done something.
Take that however you want, but I'm done revisiting this story. It isn't proving healthy for me.
Damn, a discussion on Twilestia, and I missed it.
On Twilestia and Romance Reports, I can add that Celestia and Luna's motivations will be made clear in the Alt End. Been speaking with Sleepless, and it's looking pretty good, as it adds a new dimension onto the original story.
Incidently, Eternal is also Twilestia. Read the epilogue, and pay attention to what Celestia doesn't fully say~
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Out of curiosity, how did you find this old blog post?
In any case, I'm definitely looking forward to that alt ending.
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Idle browsing, tbh.