So, I've seen quite a few arguments about why the treatment of the trio in the end was justified, and one of the arguments I've seen a few times is "Why should they have to try and help the trio or reform them? They're not obligated to help them." I've even been accused of "Victim Blaming" by saying I think they should have tried, with the logic that the heroes are victims and should not have to help their attackers.

Now, this logic would make sense if our heroes were all just completely normal everyday citizens of Equestria. Average Joe, who works 9-5 making and selling coffee to take care of his family doesn't really have any obligation to reform or help bad guys, let alone ones who endanger him. But despite the shows large slice of life focus, our protagonists are not Average Joes, they're heroes in a show that just happens to mostly focus on what the heroes do when not heroing. I think they do have some kind of obligations here. But today I'm mostly just going to talk about Twilight Sparkle, because I think she's the best example.

Twilight is "The Princess of Friendship" and as that is her role it makes sense that she is obligated to try and live up to that title. So what does that title really stand for? Well, to figure out why don't we take a look back at the episodes where she earned it, "Twilight's Kingdom". Twilight is offered a deal by Tirek, to trade all of her magic for her friends, and when faced with such a choice she chooses friendship. But the Key to victory in the end turned out to be Twilight forgiving Discord, demanding his release from Tirek and even calling him Friend despite everything. Forgiving Discord and demanding his release is what was meant to actually reform Discord and show him the true value of Friendship, it's what earned Twilight her Rainbow key, giving her and her friends the power to defeat Tirek, it's what led to her earning her big crystal castle of doom, and it's the choice that led to her earning her title as "Princess of Friendship".

All of this despite the fact that Discord had betrayed her and all of her friends, and his actions were only stopped because Tirek backstabbed him. Despite the fact that nearly every interaction with Discord prior was him annoying her at best, outright tormenting her at worst. What good had Discord done? Oh, right, he bookmarked the key pages in their journal, which led Twilight to believe that he maybe really had changed. One small, almost insignificant act of kindness amongst everything else he had done was apparently all it took for Twilight to take another chance on him. Her title was earned largely through an act of Forgiveness, so forgiveness must be an important part of her role.

Every single finale after this in Seasons 5-7 reinforces this. In Season 5 when Twilight just tries to fight Starlight, but in the end realizes that isn't the solution to the problem and defeats her by talking her down instead, even choosing to take her on as a student, despite everything Starlight had done to her personally and despite nearly ending the world. In Season 6 when the ponies decision to reform or befriend their enemies was vindicated by those former enemies being the ones to save the day when the usual heroes couldn't, and her own student Starlight showcased what she had learned from Twilight by helping to reform the changelings and at least trying to reform Chrysalis. In Season 7, when Twilight started losing sight of her ideals due to her idol worship of Starswirl, and the show treated this as a mistake on her part, where Starlight again showcased her mentors ideals even when she was failing to by insisting on trying to talk to the Pony of Shadows, and Twilight acknowledges her fault in the end.

Heck, in the movie too. Twilight picks the "Pragmatic" option of trying to steal the Pearl from the Hippogriffs, rather than the way of friendship by trying to convince them, and again the movie treats this as a massive mistake on her part. Her "Failing friendship". She corrects this in the end when she's presented with the option of grabbing the staff from the Storm King and therefore saving all of Equestria, or saving Tempest's life. And she decides to save Tempest, because that's what a friend does. This was FIM's outing on the big screen, and this is what they wanted to show about Twilight's character.

So, it's pretty clear that forgiveness and reaching out to help those who don't deserve it is part of what being the Princess of Friendship means. Does Twilight really have no obligation to represent and live up to the morals her title is meant to embody? Do her friends, the "Elements of Harmony" really not have to try and live up to the morals their leader and them have come to represent? They aren't just normal ponies after all, and even if you say "No, they aren't obligated"...well, maybe. But that sort of feels like saying "Superman isn't obligated to save people". If he doesn't want to I guess he doesn't have to, but then is he really Superman anymore?

Its funny how easy it is to counter all these pro-stoning arguments.

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I'm not sure I've seen a single one that can't be debunked by just pointing to stuff that happened in the show, or previous lessons and morals that were learned.

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There's also been arguments in-favor of why some people say that Cozy Glow deserved to share in the same fate by citing her as being similar to other such "Child Villains" from other programs that were also imprisoned, hated, or worse; without realizing that TONE was the key deciding factor for those shows that made them stand out as villains: how the worlds were built up and the characters living in it operate by.

Princess Morebucks is from the classic Powerpuff Girls: a show that is stylistic of Silver Age Superhero Comics that is populated by simple card-carrying villains like Him, Mojo Jojo, The Gangreen Gang, and The Rowdyruff Boys. There's not enough character depth to the villains aside from wanting to take over the city of Townsville just for shits and giggles, and the narrative reflects this because it's designed as a Superhero Action Cartoon.

On the flipside, there's Aquamarine from Steven Universe: a show about the titular Steven going on adventures with The Crystal Gems: Magical Women who are artificial humanoids that have bodies made from Hardlight that are projected from their gemstones. Because of the culture of Homeworld being so alien to Humankind; there's no such concepts as childhood or family for Gems, only purpose to serve their creators The Diamonds of The Great Diamond Authority. So to call Aquamarine a child because of her appearance isn't even possible since she was made to fulfill a purpose, and that she has a drive and desire to fulfill that purpose based on how high-up the chain of command she apparently is (not that we would know, because the show follows from Stevens' perspective at all times). Yet, by the time Steven Universe Future rolls around, Aquamarine is now unofficially out-of-a-job at this point, and Steven: the being she had briefly tormented, is discovered to be a Diamond: and that he managed to get through to the other Diamonds to see things from his perspective. Meaning, that most of Aquamarines' upward momentum is now for naught, and by the time she and Steven meet up again and Aquamarine tries to throw down with him; he just casually blocks her attacks with minimal effort showing just how big of a power gap there is now that he doesn't really see Aquamarine as that big of a threat to him or to his friends.

Lastly, there's Tanya Von Degurechaff, the Protagonist of The Saga of Tanya the Evil: an Isekai that breaks the traditional formula of the Isekai where instead of it being a teenager that is summoned to another world to save it from danger, Tanya was originally a mid-30s Human Resources Manager that got pushed onto the tracks of an incoming train by a vengeful underachieving slacker he just fired, only to be saved by an omnipotent being claiming to be God who has grown dissatisfied by how Humans are lacking in Faith nowadays: especially after hearing the Manager disprove of the "God" by calling him Being X and citing that the reason why people don't have any faith in God was due to advanced sciences of the time period and the advances of a free market economic world: allowing for anyone with the drive and desire to achieve greatness using their own two hands, while the only ones who pray to God are "the weak and desperate looking for something to cling to when times get hard": essentially those people who have desire to achieve greatness but don't want to actually put in any effort (aka: Lazybones). Being X takes this to mean that the only way to awaken faith would be to put people through dire straights in order to awaken faith in him again: and that he would use the Manager as the crux of this experiment: reincarnating him as a girl in an orphanage in an early 1900s' Germany that was on the brink of social unrest due to misrepresentation by world powers. Having seen the signs and knowing that the only possible way she could move up in the world was to join the military as an Aerial Mage: she voluntarily signed up instead of waiting to be drafted where there would be even more limitations on her securing a financial future for herself that will allow for Tanya to live out a stable, comfortable, and quiet life. However, Being X has pushed his hand in order to try to awaken any semblance of faith in him as God by starting a world war that has all sides fighting against Germany for one reason or another: Just to have Tanya start praying to him. The malicious sadism and carnage that Tanya seems to relish in is one of her only means of actually fighting back against the machinations of Being X: who she once treated as indifferent at the time of his death, to now seeing Being X as an absolute evil that spreads misery and suffering that denies all semblance of Free Will and Choice that Tanya deeply values.

Everybodies raising good points but specifically I always like to raise this point:

Why are we expected to care about Discord, Starlight, and Luna, but not these three?

Why are we expected to pretend apologies with no actual change in action or repeated offenses, a special case who's actions hurt an entire town that seemingly...doesn't matter to anyone, or a ruler who actively believed themselves deserving of worship and became enraged and depressed when she wasn't seem as an idol are seemingly more deserving of that forgiveness?

Because they feel bad?

Discord shows he barely comprehends the concept of guilt-he's more concerned at being reprimanded by Fluttershy or loosing connections then whether he actively hurt someone else.

Starlight, were she anyone else and Twilight not *specifically bypassed any real process* to pardon, bury and borderline wipe her actions from records, would hav either been petrified, blasted, or used as a "well they deserve to have everything go wrong because bad guy" trope people use the Flim-Flam brothers for.

Luna is wholly undeserving of having the throne handed back to her-not because of her being a villain but because she's proven herself unfit for the position by mental, emotional, and strategic maturity. And depending on whether or not we treat the world like a real planet she arguably would have killed every living thing on it by tidal-locking the planet. She was punished, but whether or not she was conscious or even cared about anyone but Celestia from the past is almost all fan material. Even then, 1000 years without any actual improvement would not warrant her becoming a ruling crown were it not for her sister risking the entire planet for one(1) person.

I don't despise Luna or Starlight. I do actively despise Discord as he's basically a spoiled, wealthy rich bully of a brat who's friends/family keep bailing him out of every single mess he makes with connections.

I've dealt with *that* personally in a small town. Screw that "b-buh he said sorry and did the minimum to clean up the mess" level of free passes.

But if I'm to genuinely believe the rest of the world will tolerate these three?

Why wouldn't I expect a child who *somehow through great incompetence of those in charge* managed to get a penpal in hell itself and failed *royally* in her one major attempt at villainy to get a proper chance?

Why wouldn't I expect the neglected prince who's anger, resentment and constant belittling by the person intended to actually *raise and teach him* who's basically had everything he's believed reinforced for over 1000 years and who's been whooped twice on record to get an attempt?

Why wouldn't the Queen Tyrant who's kept her people alive in a harsh environment with an iron fist and the same disregard for innocent's that Celestia displays with how she used the world as bargaining chips for Twilight, and who *would never have thought the equivalent of vomiting on your neighbors* would somehow turn a finite resource and fuel into a perpetual motion machine and *somehow* miraculously turn a barren desert wasteland into a *rainforest* get one?

All three of the trio have their problems but they've been hit for all of them while the protagonists could basically burn a city down and get a pat on the back for lip service.

And I have to question whether I'd actually protect those people in charge if I'm constantly putting up with that level of...avoidance of responsibility.

Wow, people are still arguing about this? I mean the villainous Trio were literally unredeemable. The three of them were villains for the sake of it unlike all the other villains before them other than Sombra. Cozy glow didn't want anything other than all the magic in the world and you know there had to be several Pegasus who died as a result of losing their ability to fly the reason it's never brought up is because it's a children's show. With Queen Chrysalis she was an evil Tyrant who was basically starving her Kingdom so she could manipulate everything. With Terek he's just doesn't care about others. With Discord his "villainy" had more to do with the fact that he loved doing his job a little bit too much which I mean he's a spirit of Chaos they're not well known for restraint in any media and he was also a natural part of the world.

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Why are we expected to care about Discord, Starlight, and Luna, but not these three?

I haven't ever actually gotten a good answer to this question from anyone. Mostly just a lot of very specific and flimsy excuses. That or some statement about how the trio are Super extra special evil in comparison to all the other villains. But that doesn't hold up because nothing they do is really meaningfully more evil than what the reformed villains did. Tried to conquer the Kingdom? Everybody does that. Torture? That was Discord's whole schtick pretty much, and for no reason other than his own amusement. Attempted murder? Nightmare Moon sicced a Manticore on the Mane Six and crumbled a mountain they were standing on, and heck even Dr. Caballeron tried to kill Dash once. Attacking children? Hey, anyone remember that time Starlight Glimmer literally blasted Filly Rainbow Dash out of the sky?

Any reason someone uses to damn the trio could just as easily be used to damn one of the reformed villains. There's nothing about them that's actually truly worse than what the reformed baddies did. The hypocrisy is painful, I'm fine if the ponies want to be super forgiving and I'm also fine if they don't want to be, but I'd like some consistency and some sense of fairness from their judgements. There's no reason for someone like Discord to once again go completely free without even some community service or whatever, while they can't even bother to take a 22 minute episodes worth of time to at least try and get through to Cozy Glow, or Chrysalis or Tirek.

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he villainous Trio were literally unredeemable

No proof of that since no proper attempt to redeem them was made.

were villains for the sake of it

They all had proper goals. They weren't just doing it for shits and giggles. That was Discord's reason, not theirs.

and you know there had to be several Pegasus who died as a result of losing their ability to fly

No we don't because there is literally no evidence of it. Also, their flying did not go away immediately. It was a gradual thing meaning that they had plenty of time to get tot he ground.

Queen Chrysalis she was an evil Tyrant who was basically starving her Kingdom so she could manipulate everything

She literally admitted that its her duty to feed her subjects in Canterlot Wedding.

With Terek he's just doesn't care about others.

He did care about his brother once, until he was betrayed.

he loved doing his job a little bit too much

Except that there is no proof that it was a job. He could have toned it down any time he wanted. He can survive off a minimum amount of chaos, not to mention that he has an entire separate dimension to mess around in. He was just malicious and didn't care about the ponies that he hurt.

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Cozy glow didn't want anything other than all the magic in the world and you know there had to be several Pegasus who died as a result of losing their ability to fly the reason it's never brought up is because it's a children's show.

No, actually. Because Pegasus flight was never taken away. Even on the final day, mere minutes before the spell finishes and takes away all magic, both Rainbow Dash and Cozy Glow are shown still flying. Not to mention before that we also saw Rainbow move a cloud and seemingly have no trouble with it. Whether an oversight on the writers part or not, as far as what we were shown on-screen, pegasus abilities were completely fine. Which actually makes sense, because Cozy is a pegasus and probably wouldn't want to gimp herself. But that also means that there was definitely no mass pegasus death of any kind.

With Queen Chrysalis she was an evil Tyrant who was basically starving her Kingdom so she could manipulate everything.

One of the very first things Chrysalis says after revealing herself is that as Queen it is her duty to find food for her subjects. She says this to a room of only ponies and no changelings. There is no reason for her to lie here, nobody for her to make herself look good too. There's no reason to think she knew what sharing love would do and that she was starving them on purpose. Certainly she's not a super kind or compassionate ruler, and she is arrogant and power hungry, but by all indications while she was the Changeling's Queen she did take that job seriously.

With Terek he's just doesn't care about others.

Except his Grandma, who he talks to in his sleep and get's defensive of when Cozy mentions her. Also, that one scene in Season 9 where he catches a little bird knocked over by the Canterlot fans, let's it fly away and even looks oddly concerned for it. Also, his father at one point as he supposedly is "Deep down afraid he'll never be enough to please dear old dad, King Vorak" according to Discord, which Tirek's reaction basically confirms. Which also makes it very likely that he really did care about Scorpan at some point and genuinely was hurt by what he saw as a betrayal.

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Exactly.

Cozy is arguably the least fleshed out and as such lacks a real reason for her actions but there was an end goal-all the magic in the world makes one powerful, but even if one has the strength to wield it what does one *need* the power for?

Chrysalis is at worst guilty of ignorance of what Thorax discovered. It's just... I keep using the vomit analogy because it fits, but even without the quasi-biological functions of them eating energy, magic isn't infinite.

We've seen every other form of magic, even Harmony, have a finite amount of power to give at any one moment.

In what world would anyone not completely ignorant of how magic works, how eating food works, and the fact love is shown to have a bottom to the bottle in every living creature, think "I have 10 love, if I give 5 to Tommy we'll both have 10 love" isn't a fallacy.

Tirek genuinely took his comic rep and ran with it. He was ostracized, treated as less then worthy of his blood line, and no matter how hard he worked never got an ounce of love outside the basal familial obligation of food and shelter from his father.

He's desperate for power because he wants to prove he's *strong* enough to be worthy. And he'd probably exhausted all the actually morally good ways to do it and decided conquering a nation treated like the only one that ever matters on the world would prove himself if not better, at least equal to his fathers expectations.

Only by this point he'd tunnel visioned into "ends justify the means" and lost sight of just how worthless his fathers respect really is.

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I actually view Tirek as a reverse Nightmare Moon in my setting: Scorpan having placed his newfound trust in the Ponies to get through to Tirek was essentially left in the complete dark about what really happened to his brother, while Scorpan returned home to assume his newfound position as leader of their people. However this is where I go into "Reverse Nightmare Moon".

Unlike with Princess Celestia who had erased or censored evidence to Nightmare Moon: including the fact that she was her younger sister, along with allowing for two holidays to persist that had essentially demonized Luna for something that was entirely Celestias' own fault to begin with: Scorpan went the opposite route. To the Centaurs, Tirek wasn't seen as a power-hungry fallen prince, instead Scorpan wove the few strands of truth to Tireks' past as the Warchief responsible for leading the charge and driving back the monstrosities of Tambelon that were plaguing The Centaur Lands, that he had let loose the arrow responsible for felling the dreaded "Experiment 129/V7": a monstrous cannibalistic Dragon whose ferocity and intense hatred of all things civilization made him an existential threat to all life on The Mainland.

The reason why no other Centaurs besides Tirek have been seen was because of Celestias' fears of Scorpans' retribution should he or any Centaur discover that instead of keeping her promise to Scorpan about talking with and rehabilitating Tirek: she just threw him into the deepest hole she could find within Tartarus and have him treated no better than a wild animal. Along with enchanting a barrier around Equestria to separate it from The Centaur Lands: which had been renamed on maps as "The Undiscovered West".

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The three of them were villains for the sake of it unlike all the other villains before them

Two points. First point, every villain save one had ultimately selfish reasons for acting the way they did in MLP. Luna wanted her night to last forever and be praised, Starlight and Tempest and Stygian were taking their personal pain out on everyone else, Discord simply did not care about anything but his own gratification, Cozy and Tirek and Sombra and the Storm King just wanted to increase their personal power.

The sole exception? Chrysalis. Chrysalis is the only villain who justifies her villainy not with personal pain or apathy, but out of a sense of duty: “As Queen of the Changelings, it is up to me to find food for my subjects!” is literally the first thing she ever says in her true form, and she says it to a room full of future victims and empty of other changelings - she had no reason to lie.

But second: only three villains have ever come close to self-reformation. Every villain who reformed needed to be goaded or blasted or reasoned with extensively to turn over a new leaf, and none of them ever showed any hint of wanting to change before that goading or blasting or reasoning happened

But those three who did almost self-reform? Chrysalis, Cozy, and Tirek, atop Mount Everhoof. They almost self-reformed without any outside help; Hell, not only did they not have outside help, Discord was in fact actively working against their reformation.

Yes, they failed. But can you point to any villain that reformed that showed any desire to change on their own? Imagine if the three had somepony actually trying to help them be better. There is zero reason to think that if someone had just been there to help them, they wouldn’t have.

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Also,

With Queen Chrysalis she was an evil Tyrant who was basically starving her Kingdom so she could manipulate everything

This is an outright lie. You shouldn’t lie.

There is no reason to think Chrysalis even knew reformation was possible. “Throw up on each other to stop being hungry all the time” isn’t exactly an intuitive line of thought. And what do we see of her two plans? Both of them involve an attempt to allow her changelings to gorge themselves. Indeed in “To Where and Back Again” she specifically states that her goal is to allow her changelings to feed for “generations”.

You can say a lot about Chrysalis, but you cannot say that she was deliberately trying to starve changelings. There is no proof for that and the show itself makes it plain that this was not her intention. To try and claim otherwise is to directly contradict her character, it’s to invent reasons to hate her that plain don’t exist in canon.

I don’t like liars.

The fact is the three of them needed to go. Cozy Glow aside, the final villains were well beyond any hope of redemption. They needed to be stopped decisively and permanently. The problem is that the act of petrification is an exceedingly messed up action for anyone and is not at all a method anyone with heroic qualities should use. Not only that, but petrification in MLP is reversible. The results are nothing more than a liability. It’s not only cruel, but exceedingly irresponsible. When those three escape their confines, they’ll be more vengeful than ever and the writers shouldn’t have needed the fans to point it out to them.

And just to pour salt in the wound, that’s exactly what ended up happening in the long run.

The fact is the three of them needed to go. Cozy Glow aside, the final villains were well beyond any hope of redemption. They needed to be stopped decisively and permanently.

I disagree with this. There's not really anything about them that indicates that they're anymore "Beyond redemption" than villains like Discord or Starlight or Luna. There's evidence in Season 9 itself that they're very capable of changing, thanks to Frenemies, and there's nothing they do that would push them past any sort of Moral Event Horizon by the standards of the show. If the show wants to take a sudden hardline stance that "No, these guys are too evil for us to try and help" there needs to be an actual reason for it.

That said...

The problem is that the act of petrification is an exceedingly messed up action for anyone and is not at all a method anyone with heroic qualities should use.

I do completely agree with this. People often compare the trio's stoning to Discord's, but it's a weak comparison. Because Discord was never punished via petrification, only defeated by it. Both times he got the stone bodysuit treatment he was an incredibly powerful and active threat, one who didn't seem like he could be reasoned with. It is very different to stone a rampant villain because he has to be stopped immediately and you don't have any other way to stop him, than it is to stone three already beaten, powerless foes who can't do anything to fight back right now. The first is unfortunate but understandable, the second is just cruel.

Not only that, but petrification in MLP is reversible. The results are nothing more than a liability. It’s not only cruel, but exceedingly irresponsible. When those three escape their confines, they’ll be more vengeful than ever and the writers shouldn’t have needed the fans to point it out to them.

I will also agree with this. The only indication we're given on the trio's fate in canon is Discord's "Together Forever" nonsense, and nobody disagrees with him and that would imply that the stoning is basically an execution. But they aren't actually dead, which has the exact issues you say. It's a cowards execution, trying to have one's cake and eat it too. It doesn't work out no matter how you look at it.

Unless they are conscious in the statue, in which case it's just blatant sadism and torture. The writers indicated that wasn't the case and that they are unconscious on Twitter but never said so in the show, annoyingly enough.

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Cozy Glow aside, the final villains were well beyond any hope of redemption

There is no proof of that as there was never a proper attempt to redeem them.

They needed to be stopped decisively and permanently

What they needed was a second chance and proper help at rehabilitating, just like all the reformed villains.

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the final villains were well beyond any hope of redemption

How could you possibly know this? When did anyone even try to redeem Tirek? Name the episode.

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Provide your evidence. And I speak for many when I say the pro-redemption mindset of the show had long overstayed its welcome by then. Even the writers were sick of it by the time Season 8 rolled around, which I do respect. Too many had already gotten off too lightly long before that point or should not have been redeemed at all.

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Provide my evidence of what? That the ponies did not try to redeem Tirek? Okay, my evidence is 221 episodes, 1 holiday special, and 1 movie where not once does a single pony try and redeem him, nor even brig up the idea of doing so.

So how can you possibly know that he’s beyond redemption? Where’s your evidence?

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I meant to provide your evidence that he can be redeemed. Having camaraderie with his allies is not evidence enough. Plenty of vile characters and even genuinely despicable people in history have found strange friendships and companionship with other likeminded monsters. You don’t have to be a noble person to be friends with someone as long as they are as wicked as you.

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I don’t know that he can be redeemed. More to the point, I don’t particularly care if he can be redeemed. What I care about is the fact that you claimed he was “irredeemable”, when you cannot possibly know that, because no one ever tried. So any argument based on the idea that he is “irredeemable” is flawed at the outset because it’s based on your fanfiction, not anything found in the actual show.

Y’know, like your lie that Chrysalis intentionally starved her people.

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I don’t recall saying I write fanfiction featuring G4’s Tirek. And I don’t know why’re you’re so sensitive to the concept of a villain being too far gone for another chance. I don’t know if this is your personal morality talking or a response influenced by personal trauma, but I can see you are triggered and not behaving entirely rationally.

And at what point did I lie about Chrysalis starving her people? I never even mentioned that. Nor do I think she did. I suspect you’re projecting something here and will not humor you.

When the stakes are as high as they are at a series finale and the villains have the track record that those three did, you’re only fooling yourself if you’re absolutely convinced they will turn over a new leaf by the end.

I also didn’t come into this thread expecting to trigger anyone, nor am I going to backtrack on anything I said. But I won’t continue this argument with you if you’re going to start claiming I said things that I never did.

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I don’t recall saying I write fanfiction featuring G4’s Tirek.

But that’s what your claim that Tirek is irredeemable is: fan fiction. It’s not something from the show but it’s related to the show, and it’s written by a fan. But there is no more support for it than there is support for the idea that Sweetie Belle is a robot.

And I don’t know why’re you’re so sensitive to the concept of a villain being too far gone for another chance.

I’m not. I’ve written many stories with such villains. Hell, one of my favorite MLP fan fictions that I wrote back in 2013, The Return of Tambelon, had three. Ironically two of them were Grogar and Tirek, both before the show proper introduced either of them.

But that’s not what we’re talking about, so please try harder to keep up. Once again: I don’t care if Tirek can be redeemed. What I care about is your baseless assertion that he is irredeemable, because there is nothing in the show to support that, because no one in the show ever tried to redeem him.

I never even mentioned that

You are correct; I confused you for Zach_Dragon upthread. Sorry, I was making these posts at work and didn’t double-check things. Mea culpa.

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I don’t care if he is or not either. I just have no reason to assume otherwise by the finale. Show mercy too many times and your enemies will eventually exploit you for it.

And I was not aware we were competing. If this is a flexing debate, find a different opponent.

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I just have no reason to assume otherwise by the finale.

Sure you do. Two points:

• Tirek on Mount Everhoof nearly embraced friendship without outside help. The only other villains who can claim that are Chrysalis and Cozy Glow, under the same circumstances
• No villain in MLP ever reformed without outside help.

You can’t claim that he’s irredeemable because no one ever tried. But you also can’t claim that he didn’t shows signs of being redeemable because he’s one of only three that ever considered the possibility without being blasted by magic, reasoned with, or had somepony perform some great act on his behalf to try and convince him.

Yeah, he rejected it. But to consider redemption and then reject it, on his own initiative, is more than Luna, Discord, Starlight, Stygian, or Tempest Shadow ever did. Or Trixie, Gilda, or Flim and Flam, or Neighsay, or a host of minor antagonists.

Again, this does not mean that he can be redeemed. He may well be too far gone. But you can’t in seriousness look at a villain who sincerely, unprompted, wondered if he was doing the wrong thing this whole time, and then say “nah, he never showed any sign of the possibility.” Well I mean you can, but it’s a stance that doesn’t hold water when examined.

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I don’t care if he is or not either. I just have no reason to assume otherwise by the finale.

I disagree. Ultimately we can't know for certain whether Tirek could be redeemed or not, but we do have evidence that at least supports the possibility. Just in Season 9 alone we have him showing care for his Grandma, for dreaming of her and becoming defensive over her, showing concern for a little bird that was knocked over, when he easily could have been cruel or even just apathetic to it. We have the suggestion of a somewhat sympathetic backstory due to issues with his father according to Discord, which is obviously a reference to his Fiendship comic.

Most importantly of all though, we have the scene in Frenemies, where he returns Chrysalis her magic rather than keeping it for himself and almost embraces friendship. Not only that but in his own words says "All these years taking power from ponies..." Implying not only is he considering friendship with Chrysalis and Cozy, but is even reconsidering his evil ways in general. Sure, he snaps out of this after Chrysalis's little freak out...but it still happened. How would a moment like this have gone if he had it around somepony like say...Twilight? Who would actually want to help him and encourage this kind of thought?

This is evidence that Tirek is capable of frendship and care for others. Those things are not beyond him, he is not fundamentally evil. They hint at a very real possibility that with the proper help he could be reformed. Now maybe that is wrong, despite these things. Maybe he'd always choose evil for one reason or another, but it's impossible to know because none of the heroes have ever actually tried to help Tirek.

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I will respect your optimism. I see you really want to believe they could be turned to a more virtuous side and I will let you keep that belief.

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This isn’t optimism, it’s a hard fact. None of the villains who reformed showed signs of unprompted reconsideration before being redeemed, and yet they were redeemed, meaning that despite their lack of obvious outward sign they were capable of redemption.

That being the case, how can you in seriousness say that a villain who did, sincerely and unprompted, begin to reconsider his choices, does not show signs of the possibility of redemption? What then, to you, is a “sign”?

Again, we’re not discussing whether or not he can be redeemed, just whether or not he showcased more of a possibility than any of the villains who were redeemed.

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Why are you still talking to me? That wasn’t a response to your comment.

Now that this thread is being gummed up with a three way argument, I’m bowing out to keep this from getting messier. I didn’t come here for this.

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Why are you still talking to me? That wasn’t a response to your comment.

Conversations in public forums are public conversations.

I didn’t come here for this.

I don’t rightly care. You can leave, of course, you’re free to do so, but I want you to leave knowing that your position concerning the “signs of redemption” that the Trio displayed is untenable when placed under casual scrutiny. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

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Frenemies had them almost accepting friendship, which means they were closer to reforming on their own then any of the reformed villains, which naturally means that they could have had a better and maybe even easier time rehabilitating then those characters.

Tirek was showed to care at least a little bit for her grandmother, her brother until he betrayed him and a random bird.
Chrysalis's entire goal was to ensure that the changelings were fed.
Cozy is a literal child who basically misunderstood Twilight's teachings with the latter not even attempting to correct her.

You could argue that these are small points, but you can't argue that these three showed more potential for change then Starlight, Discord or even Luna. The fact of the matter is that they received 0 help in trying to change, unlike the reformed ones.

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Why are we expected to care about Discord, Starlight, and Luna, but not these three?

Perhaps, there is a way to explain this.

Discord: In all honesty, I don't think he ever reformed, he just acts good whenever he needs to be. In a way, I feel as if he was given a get out of jail free card. Despite claiming that he is reformed, he still does chaos as if his nature never changed. Also, something tells me that if he did succeed in getting Grogar's bell, he could probably create a lot of chaos with it.

Starlight: I will admit that she is a little hard to understand at first. I can still remember when she tried to control a village of ponies by taking all of their cutie marks, though it's not clear what she was really going to do with them since her plans were stopped. Another thing she did was try to alter the timeline just because a friend she knew from long ago was leaving her, though I don't see how exactly altering the timeline would change that. What most likely got her to change was stopping Chrysalis when she captured just about all the ponies to get a more positive view on her.

Luna: First of all, she was never purely evil, it was the manifestation known as Nightmare Moon that made her that way. In other words, she isn't solely responsible for her actions. However, manifestations can't be removed, which is why the most the Mane 6 can do is purify the ones that are possessed by them such as her. When she isn't in that form, she isn't evil, but she is still feeling sad that she has to still live with it and can't even control it despite being an alicorn, who is supposed to be powerful in fighting such. As long as negative emotions exist for her, she will always have that form. This is even referenced in my fanfics where she mentions that when she becomes that form, she is no longer herself and even attacks those she loves including her own sister.

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Did you take a page from 'Fix'?

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No, but I enjoyed it.

I don't care if someones chosen by god or older then empires, if they make a reprehensible action they are to be judged for it, especially if they themselves presume to act as a bastion of moral right while barely if ever are following their own preaching.

Celestia's used entire nations as bargaining chips for Twilight's "destiny", and I'd be hard pressed to have sympathy for her due to that alone.

Play god, fall like a god with all the suffering that comes with it.

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it was the manifestation known as Nightmare Moon that made her that way. In other words, she isn't solely responsible for her actions

I’m not sure this holds up. Luna never talks like she and Nightmare Moon were separate entities or personalities. Nightmare Moon was just what she was calling herself while villainous, but she’s still basically Luna. Like, Farok Bulsara and Freddie Mercury weren’t two different people, the latter was the stage persona of the former, they were the same person who just used different names in different circumstances.

However, I will give Luna this: she is making a determined effort to be a better person, and is regularly seen trying to help ponies with her powers (the CMC, natch). The one additional time she put Equestria in danger after the pilot, with the Tantabus, was a complete accident that she immediately owned up to and worked hard to help fix.

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Aye, I don't fault Luna's personal attempts-I do fault her being complicit with the actions of Celestia on multiple occasions but that goes into the issue of her being re-seated as a ruler immediately after being redeemed despite being extremely out of depth by time and her previous actions.

She definitely was Moon in the show, the comics muddled the waters and shifted her actions onto someone else to make her look better and be more sympathetic, but that's it's own kettle of fish.

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I have always seen it as a Jekyll and Hyde thing in that Nightmare Moon represents all of negatives of Luna. Ever since Luna got changed back the first time, she still feels bad for everything she did in that form despite not being solely responsible for it. I was always under the impression that it was kept a secret from most mainly because I feel that telling the rest of Equestria that she was that form probably wouldn't resonate with them. Even when I did that fanfic known as Luna Comes Clean, she mentions to Megan that she was probably better off dead in that she could be put out of her misery rather than having to live with it, but then Megan tried to calm her down by claiming that Celestia must have still seen good in her especially since she chose to banish her to the moon rathe rather than just kill her. The same went with saying how the Mane 6 just changed her back when they could have killed her or just turn her into a statue. The other reason why Luna felt comfortable saying it in front of Megan is also because she can probably do what the other pony princesses couldn't do and that was pet her to help calm her down when talking about. Overall, I could never understand why Luna could never fight it as if the manifestation always seems to have control over her.

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Yeah, I pretty much concur with this. Not at least attempting reformation of the Trio if possible is contrary to the values the Mane 6 are supposed to represent. (Now, this doesn't rule out killing them in the process of stopping them, or them being destroyed by their own evil ways - but what occurred was closer to an execution.)

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In the case of Starlight, because she did realise her mistakes and surrender in the end. In the case of Luna, because likewise with the Nightmare purged from her she was filled with regret. In the case of Discord... well, that's the sticky one, isn't it? And of course doubly so because of how he's involved with the Trio and their fate. One might almost think it's a meta-ploy by him to harvest eternal disharmony from us fans...

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Blindly going the other way is not the best method of course correction.

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(Now, this doesn't rule out killing them in the process of stopping them, or them being destroyed by their own evil ways - but what occurred was closer to an execution.)

Yes, this is why I have no issue with Sombra's fate mostly. He was killed in battle, while still a threat. Very different from what happened to the trio.

I do say mostly because I do still take issue with the fact that Sombra was only in that position in the first place because Discord resurrected and kidnapped him and set the whole thing in motion, then let him die and used his death as a manipulation tool. I think that's supremely messed up and horrible, but at least in this case I don't have a problem with the heroes actions. Just Discord.

In the case of Starlight, because she did realise her mistakes and surrender in the end.

This is very true, but she only did that because Twilight tried to talk her down and reason with her, despite all the horrible things she was doing and despite having tried to talk her down once before in the Season 5 premiere and failing. Something which Tirek and Cozy never got. Chrysalis did, once, but when she got it she was in the same position Starlight was in back in the beginning of Season 5, when Starlight also didn't listen to reason. Yet unlike with Starlight, nobody ever tried again with Chrysalis. Starlight made the choice to stand down, but it still took Twilight actually talking to her and putting in effort to get there, effort the trio did not get.

In the case of Luna, because likewise with the Nightmare purged from her she was filled with regret.

Luna was still offered mercy from Celestia before she indicated any regret, probably due to being Celestia's sister, but still the mercy was offered first. Plus, for all the heroes knew in the finale maybe Tirek and Cozy were starting to feel regret. Not like they got a chance to speak up, they just got crushed under a cupcake and then petrified.

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I agree with you that the events of the season premiere do sit awkwardly with the revelations of the finale.

Wow. So much copium needed in this thread.

So ypu knkw why i find this constantly being brought up so stupid. Unless i am remembering wrong Chrysalis and Cozy were offered a chance to chabge their ways. You know what they did? They slaped the hand away and spat in their face. They chose to continue being the horrible people that they are. Only one that wasn't given the first chance was Tirek, byt you know what, for freakin good reason. He was a genocidal megalomaniac.

To argue about if they could have been redeemed is dumb as hell because theh shown they don't want to be. And you know what, that is freakin okay. Talk-no-jutsu does not have to work all the time, and a hard lession they had to learn is that sometimes some people do not want to be your friend.

So freakin get over it, and just write your AU fanfiction. Canon isn't going to change.

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So ypu knkw why i find this constantly being brought up so stupid. Unless i am remembering wrong Chrysalis and Cozy were offered a chance to chabge their ways. You know what they did? They slaped the hand away and spat in their face.

Chrysalis was offered a chance, yes. In the Season 6 finale, after having all of her plans ruined, her home destroyed, and all her people turned against her. You know who else was offered a chance in such a situation and also didn't take it? Starlight Glimmer. Yet Twilight still tried again with Starlight, and she gave in because Twilight was persistent. But nobody ever tried again with Chrysalis, not even Twilight or Starlight, despite Chrysalis in the Season 9 finale basically just doing the exact same thing Starlight once did, seek revenge.

As for Cozy, no. Nobody ever tried. Twilight only ever asked her why she did what she did, but when Cozy gave her answer, Twilight immediately gave up on her without even a token attempt to change her mind. Sure, Cozy wasn't remorseful or anything, but neither was Discord when he was originally let out of his stone prison and yet it didn't stop Fluttershy from trying with him. Cozy is a child and doesn't even have 1% of the power he had, there's no reason for her remorselessness to damn her when it didn't damn Discord.

Only one that wasn't given the first chance was Tirek, byt you know what, for freakin good reason. He was a genocidal megalomaniac.

Okay, can somebody please tell me when Tirek was ever portrayed as Genocidal? Because I've heard this reasoning for why he doesn't deserve even an offer of help before, and yet it doesn't make any sense. Because if Tirek is genocidal why hasn't he ever killed anyone? He had plenty of opportunities to back in Season 4 but he didn't, just drained the ponies power and left them alone. He easily could have killed Twilight and her friends after taking her power, but again he didn't, he left them alone. He could have killed the Princesses, he didn't, just put them in Tartarus. The only things he's ever "Killed" are Twi's library and some trees he blew up for whatever reason.

He does try to kill the Mane Six and Spike in the finale, after they've stood in the way of his plans multiple times, so he is guilty of attempted murder. I'm not saying he's completely free of murderous intent. But there's nothing in the series to indicate he's genocidal. He seems to just view ponies as a source of power, he drains them and leaves them alone after that. He's honestly one of the less violent villains in the series, he seems to mostly have no interest in causing harm unless it's necessary for his plans.

To argue about if they could have been redeemed is dumb as hell because theh shown they don't want to be.

Neither did Discord at one point. Same thing for Starlight. But ponies still tried and they were still reached. So the fact that they don't want to be redeemed doesn't matter, the ponies could still try and change their minds, it's worked before.

Talk-no-jutsu does not have to work all the time, and a hard lession they had to learn is that sometimes some people do not want to be your friend.

The problem isn't that Talk-no-jutsu didn't work, the problem is that nobody tried Talk-no-jutsu. Chrysalis got one meager attempt, at the worst possible moment for it, and Cozy and Tirek got nothing. If they genuinely tried to reach out to the trio like they did Discord and it failed and they had to stone the trio to stop them? I'd have no complaints. That'd be fine. That is not what happened. If the show wants to teach a message about how you can't reach and befriend everyone? Then fine, that's a good and mature moral, but that isn't what happened, no matter how much people insist it is.

So freakin get over it, and just write your AU fanfiction. Canon isn't going to change.

Yes, I'm well aware that canon probably isn't going to change. If they ever make some kind of direct continuation of G4, I really do think they absolutely should address this issue, but I'm not particularly counting on it. I also do agree that writing an AU fanfiction is a good way to deal with things, even if it doesn't really fix the issue with canon. But not everyone is a writer. For me, making posts like this is my equivalent of writing my fanfiction. I don't see how this is a worse way of dealing with it. Reading and commenting on discussions like this is just as optional as it is with a fanfiction, you know.

When I did do the fanfic "Long Live Princess Twilight Sparkle", the trio along with Sombra do reform around the end. However, the reason they did that was because Megan sort of convinced after claiming about why they are only brought back to watch her while Dark Matter does the real fighting. To a certain extent, the rest even manage to convince Chrysalis help the ponies and Megan beat Grogar and even attend the Twilight's coronation ceremony where she is finally serving as the new ruler of Equestria. Also, after the battle, Megan mentions to them that they don't even have to be evil anymore as they sort of wondered to themselves why they became that way in the first place.