To start the ball rolling on threads for this group, I pose the question: why would somepony create an amulet to increase power which also made the wearer evil?

You could say, "making the wearer evil is just a side effect of the Amulet's influence. It's an allegory for the corruption of power," to which I would say, "what about the Elements of Harmony? Same principle, double standards. The Mane Six search out a piece of jewelry fabled to have the power to overcome their foe. Trixie searches out a piece of jewelry fabled to have the power to overcome her foe." It's the same thing.

Does this mean something else was corrupting Trixie? Or does it mean the Mane Six are being corrupted by the Elements?

Post your thoughts in the comments below.

4068545 The most obvious answer is that it's an accidental side effect. But despite being an adherent to Ockhams razor, I'd much rather a more fanciful answer.

A more interesting one might be that it's corrupting influence was made up to give ole' Trixie and other users a 'get out of jail' card that makes them look less guilty than they are.

4068569 In either case - it being a side effect or it being a get out of jail free card - who made it? If it was made by something like a powerful unicorn and the corruption is only a side--effect, how did he let it get away? Why would he even need a power increasing amulet? Was it commissioned? Is he some kind of Equestrian equivalent to Dashi?

Your idea with the get out of jail free card was that it was made up, correct? By Trixie? If it was, then her actions don't make any sense. Assuming she wasn't on any mind altering enchantments, she achieved her goal. She beat Twilight. Then she said, "now I'll get her friends to sew me banners and make me applesauce,"? It doesn't fit her character and even if it did, why would Zecora play along? Zecora recognized the Amulet, didn't she? Wouldn't she know if it had mind altering powers or not? Why would she help Trixie if she did? Why would the book say it had mind altering powers?

For that matter, why is there a book entry on it at all? Did the creator write it? If it was an accidental side effect, I would want as little evidence that I know around as possible, to plead deniability. Heck, I would destroy the thing. Why didn't he?

4068569
I believe we can answer on two different directions simultaneously:

A) The Elements aren't just talismans, but they are rather connections to some higher power. We would then need to explain how that higher power measure Harmony, but that's fodder for another conversation.

B) The Alicorn Amulet might be simply some sort of "overclock" button. (Anybody here remembers early-1990's PC's that came with an LED display with a three-digit screen and a little red button? I quite remember a computer that would run normally at 85KHz, but would jump to 300KHz if you pressed the button. There was a catch, though: the processor would overheat if you held down the button for too long. Another similar concept is the position of "Emergency Power" in military vehicles' throttles: "Full Power" is the position of running at the highest sustainable output, but "Emergency Power" goes higher, at the cost of wearing down the engine.) Therefore, my hypothesis is that the Alicorn Amulet was meant to be worn only when all shit has hit the fan, and then needs to be removed before it drives you mad.
The situation of "Military Emergency" also explains why the Amulet has an interlock: is far too valuable to be allowed to fall into enemy hands.

4068652 I can only guess as to who might have made it, I'm afraid. We're in dangerous speculation territory.

However, Trixie's actions wouldn't have to be in character. First off, there's little we know about her, so her liking applesauce is... debatable. That said, we are aware she is a fine actress, and prone to lying and exaggerating. If she were to learn about an amulet that granted powers, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to have her go along with the idea that it warps her mind. Play along a little, pretend to not trust wheels, and voila: mitigating circumstances.

As for Zecora being tricked, I can see several possibilities. The one I'd find more plausible is that much like many legends, if it's old enough you run out of hard evidence. If several magicians used the alicorn amulet and played along with the 'it makes you crazy' routine, that's what the history books would say it does. What evidence do we have that you go crazy when you wear it? That's just what the books say, and books can be wrong. And Trixie stands to gain a fair bit in case her plans go south if she acts crazy... just like anyone using the amulet for evil, and that's all it's ever been used for. Apologize, say it made you nuts, and all of a sudden, ponies like Twilight are a bit more forgiving.

If it's an accident though, you never throw away your accidents. You keep them and you observe what went wrong. It's the same reason why plane wreckages are stored for months to years after a crash: they get examined. Add a few centuries to the mix, and you forget it's an accident.

It's also possible that the "can only be removed by the bearer" was a security precaution by the creator simply to prevent it being removed by stealth or grappling.

My personal feeling is that it was akin to a Ring of Power - it enhances the natural (and "magic" is natural here) abilities of the person holding it. The "turns you evil" part strikes me as a vividly unintended side effect. I'd wager the original owner made quite a mess. As for why it wasn't already under lock and key... Well, we don't know its history very well. Historical contingency is a funny thing.

4068545 What if the Amulet is actually an attempted imitation of the Elements of Harmony?

I'd imagine it's something a jealous or ambitions mage created to copy the Elements. Maybe even with one of the real elements as a template to copy some of the enchantments from.
However, the Element's power comes from the harmony between the Bearers, and the Amulet is a single user artifact, so it instead uses the inner Harmony of the user as it's source. This cannot be done though without seriously disturbing the users saneness.

Another idea would be that the amulet was forged by a madpony like Sombra who didn't see the amulets mind altering as corrupting because he was corrupt himself. It might even be, that the madness the amulet creates is actually an imprint of it's creator. This could for example explain Trixie's sudden distrust of wheels.

And there's also the option that the amulet is actually a weapon forged by a dying dark mage to keep up his legacy after his death. In this case Trixie was simply not long enough under it's influence to fully corrupt enough to get there.

You should also check out Sunset of Time. It has some really nice worldbuilding regarding the amulet, and makes it part of a series of artefacts called the Dark Regalia.

4068741 While her like or dislike of applesauce is interesting, I was referring to the very reason she got the amulet in the first place: revenge. She gets the amulet and takes her revenge on Twilight, then waits for the Yoda references to finish and Twilight to come and beat her again. What we do know about Trixie is that she's very vain. Sure, it might be fun to rub her friends' noses in her victory for a little bit and actually it annoyed me that she banished Twilight instead of gloating over her like something more in line with her character, but after about a half an hour of that, she should have left. She clearly had more vengeance to be taken elsewhere so why'd she stick around Ponyville so long? Additionally, if she were faking it, she'd want to keep moving so she didn't slip up. The biggest rule of a con is that you don't do it in the same place for too long or people catch on. Being as big of a con mare as Trixie was, she would know this.

4068952 And maybe she would have, but then again, she had relatively uncontestable magical power, and assuming my theory is right (and that's all it is: a theory) she wouldn't have much to lose.

And if my theory is right, she was correct. Her plans go south, but she's forgiven. Everything worked out. She had her own private kingdom for as long as she could handle it, and when it was over, no skin off her nose. She walks free.

4068722 I do like the overclock idea, but that just leaves more questions: what dire emergency needed to be solved by unicorns and not an alicorn? Was it Discord? Changelings? Nightmare Moon? Sombra? Because the Alicorn Amulet itself would be less than useless against these enemies. Discord, because he's a master of chaos and too unpredictable to attack with simple spells, no matter the power. Besides which, if anything could trick the user from removing the Amulet, Discord could. Changelings because they're shapeshifters, they'd just hide out until the user had to remove the necklace (assuming he knew about its downside) then strike. Nightmare Moon because she also attacks indirectly and can turn into smoke (I of course say she attacks indirectly based on her actions in the first episode, whilst ignoring the flashback in the second part of season 4). Finally, Sombra is an evil unicorn with skill in illusions. It would be in his best interest to have the wearer keep the Amulet on as long as possible and he would use illusions to give him the feeling of imminent danger all the time until he succumbed to the evil overclock.

If it's something else, what? Why haven't we heard about it if it was so important as to warrant such bold measures?

4068785 An interesting idea but who would want to clone the EoH (I got tired of spelling the whole thing out)? That kind of magic seems very finicky, needing very specific situations before they can activate. If there was some kind of ambitious unicorn/coven with enough power to make an item of this magnitude, wouldn't their efforts be better served trying to disrupt the element bearers themselves?

Besides that, they would need one of the EoH in order to try and make a copy/evil copy, which would be either in the Macguffin Tree or with Celestia and Luna or Celestia. How did they get one of the EoH to copy? Which element? What did they think they could accomplish?

4068962 If we're going by what she had before she obtained the Alicorn Amulet, yeah she didn't have much to lose at all. At worst, she would have had to write a letter to Celestia. However, with the Alicorn Amulet she had quite a lot to lose. Assuming it was just an act, the Alicorn Amulet is a vessel of extreme arcane power with no visible downside so even if she thought she'd be caught eventually and set up the ruse, this still suggests that there was absolutely nothing in the wide wide world of Equestria that Trixie wanted to do next with seemingly godlike magical powers. Not one pony did she want to take revenge on. Not one muffin did she want to steal. Heck, she didn't even fix her wagon. For a mare who you suggests plans far enough into the future to stage an elaborate ruse backed by historical evidence, she didn't do a single thing to help herself out.

Either Trixie is smart enough to perform this elaborate of a trick, in which case she would've done more than inconvenience Twilight. Or there was no trick and the Amulet does have this bad of a downside yet was still released and found in a shady antique dealer's place.

4068722 yours actually did something?! The one I remember was literally only hooked up to a light.

My personal theory is that power corrupts, and that's what happened. Here's my theory on why Trixie was corrupted and the Mane six weren't corrupted by the elements of harmony. First, Trixie didn't exactly go after the Alicorn Amulet with good intentions and she used for a lot longer than the Mane Six use the elements of harmony, making her a lot more susceptible to corruption. My theory is that the magic of friendship/love is that it staves off and prevents corruption in magic users. The elements use the friendship of the wielders to safely allow them to summon and control vast amounts of energy. Love is pretty similar, Shining Armor and Cadence used love to safely draw the energy needed to repel the changelings.

4069012 Possibly, but possibly not.

Trixie has been known to bite off more than she can chew. It's entirely possible she didn't intend to lose her power, and that it was just insurance she didn't want to have to use.

Another explanation would be that the Alicorn Amulet isn't all powerful, and that she expected a more heavyweight adversary (Discord or Celestia perhaps) to eventually catch wind of her activities and act. Unfortunately for her, Twilight got the better of her sooner, but the end result is the same. If Twilight hadn't been able to trick her, maybe she would have had time to fix her cart.

4069047 But if that's the case, shouldn't Celestia be corrupted? Going by your theory, Celestia's 'good intentions' for using the EoH were that she had an argument with her sister that she couldn't win so it was blasting time to shut her up. When she used the EoH against Nightmare Moon she didn't have any friends beside Luna and (assuming we're going by the flashback in part 2 of the season 4 opener) she was wearing them in her bag for an extended amount of time. Celestia should be evil as all get out with far more serious consequences.

4069050 When was she planning to fix the cart if she expected Discord was going to come? She realizes the guy can teleport, right? To quote AntonyC, "She utilized the ancient changeling art of just stand there and do nothing,".

4069086 Discord can teleport, yes, but is not omniscient. Ergo, he'd arrive when he hears of the situation, assuming he'd arrive at all. This is pre-season 4 finale, after all: he wasn't the most helpful of guys.

That's assuming she didn't think she could beat him. If she thought the amulet gave her enough ability to take Discord on, then it wouldn't matter. But I'm not so sure the amulet is really all that powerful.

4069075
The "good intentions" part was more of an observation; Trixie didn't put herself in the best place to avoid corruption, instead she put herself in a position where it would be easier to be corrupted. While Celestia did have the elements in her bag, she wasn't actually using them; the only time she drew energy from them was when she used them on Luna. Trixie, on the other hand, was constantly drawing on the Alicorn Amulet. It looks like we have pretty different views on what happened during the Nightmare moon incident. My headcannon is that Sombra corrupted Luna and sent her down the road to Nightmare moon and it wasn't just Luna throwing a hissy fit. I have two (kind of three) theories on why Celestia wasn't corrupted. First some ponies may just be more resistant to corruption (stronger willpower or what have you), second Celestia used her love for Luna as a countersink. using the elements on Luna was like putting down a rabid dog; it had to be done, but that doesn't mean you enjoy it. My third, mostly unsupported, theory is that maybe Celestia was corrupted and we're just seeing the MLP world through a propaganda filter. I'm enjoying the debate; if you see anything else, feel free to point it out.

4068963

What dire emergency needed to be solved by unicorns and not an alicorn?

I'll answer with another question: Can the very few alicorns be everywhere at once, specially during wartime?
I would imagine that the item might have been part of the standard bag of tricks in a general's arsenal, to then be employed only on a champion with special training on anger management, unquestionable loyalty (preferably having wife and children) and a perfect track record for respect for the chain of command (so the general could later command the champion to return the amulet to its case). As wars became less common, the Amulets fell into obscurity.

Another possibility is that the Amulet is some Legendary item left behind by Starwhirl or someone equally important, and that it was like a cross between Gandalf's staff and Sauron's ring.

Something else to think about is that we don't really know if the Amulet can only empower unicorns. What if an agrimancer Earth pony can grow whole forests overnight, or a pegasus could create tornadoes on its own?

4068983 First off I'm not necessarily talking about an evil mage in my first suggestion. He might be overly ambitious, but it might even be a completely benevolent wizzard, who is in for the science, or searching for a way to protect Equestria without the need for fitting bearers.
It could even be a project supported by Celestia herself who is looking for a way of protection after the elements went inert after NMM.
That would also explain why he has access to an element.
Another option would be that he just tried to replicate the element's results without actually having access to them.

While he succeeded in copying the element's power output, the amulet had the side effect of corrupting the bearer. However, before he managed to destroy it, it got stolen or corrupted him himself and got lost in History.

4069109 Still doesn't give her a reason to do nothing while events unfold around her.

4069252 I'm enjoying the debate, too. That's why I joined the group. As a rule, I don't like using natural resistance or stronger willpower as an excuse. Natural resistance because it's too circumstantial that they apparently have that resistance unless the reason they are where they are is because of that resistance (a natural selection sort of rap) and stronger willpower because that same willpower should translate into other aspects of the character when they're actually lacking (for example, Celestia against Chrysalis). The countersink idea is good, but relies on the idea Luna and Nightmare Moon are one in the same (an issue the show is kinda dodgy about). If Sombra had corrupted Luna, it would be more akin to Celestia fighting Sombra himself using Luna as a proxy which might detract from the love being spread around. I wouldn't be so sure your theory about Celestia being already corrupted is so unsupported, but perhaps that's a discussion for another thread. (Incidentally, my headcanon doesn't have her just throw a hissy fit either, I was just going by the show's original interpretation ).

4069633 My main question is more like a 'war against what?' idea. I can conceivably think of them having use if Nightmare Moon had followers who battled the Royal Guard while Celestia fought her and there might have been a war there, but that was only a thousand years ago. There are ponies, let alone dragons and draconequi that have lived that long and seen it personally. So it would be pretty hard to fade so far into obscurity even Celestia isn't keeping a lid on them. Still, I rather like the idea of it being a wartime weapon instead of an enclosed magical accident of some sort.

4069705 That would explain how he got an element but it doesn't add up. If Celestia truly was working on a replacement for the EoH, protection from the EoH, or the way to reactivate the EoH, why would she just leave the EoH in the old castle? When she moved to Canterlot was she going through a list saying, "Royal banquet chairs, check. Royal silver, check. Elements of Harmony with extreme magical power stronger than even I am, eh. The carriage is already almost full, I'm sure nopony will miss it."? Him trying to copy the EoH without one makes more sense. But even so, why? If it was just for science, he could have dropped by the castle. If Celestia didn't care enough to lug them with her shower curtains, she probably wouldn't mind him having a look.

On a side note, I'm so glad this thread got so many replies. I look forward to having many more discussions in the future.

4070865

My main question is more like a 'war against what?' idea.

Without wanting to now open discussion into it, but the Hearth Warming Play show that ponies weren't harmonious even among each others.

There are ponies, let alone dragons and draconequi that have lived that long and seen it personally. So it would be pretty hard to fade so far into obscurity even Celestia isn't keeping a lid on them.

The few dragons we've seen on the show give me the idea of being simple-minded barbarians, with the sole exception of pony-raised Spike. And even Spike lost his mind when he got greedy...
Discord is mysterious (such as the mystery of just how many moves he's playing ahead), but he is so narcissistic and so utterly random that he is also ultimately self-defeating.
And I wouldn't fault the Alicorns: the sovereign cannot slow down to smell the flowers.

4070865
I don't like using natural resistance or the idea of a stronger willpower either, but it isn't a non factor. A more relatable example is addiction (actually addiction isn't a bad explanation for why power corrupts), some people are just flat out less likely get addicted to stuff than others. Some people only need a short stay in rehab, while others never truly recover from their addiction. biology just throws curveballs sometimes.
The idea behind using love/friendship as a countersink isn't that you feel the emotion for what you're trying to use the spell on, just that you have a strong source of it. For example Celestia could use the elements on Sombra using her love for Luna (or even her subjects if that is strong enough). I use this theory for magic (even pegasi and earth pony magic) in general, the elements of harmony are just a specific, extreme example. It also applies to other examples such as Shining Armor and Cadence using their love for each other to balance out them repelling the changelings. For the record, my interpretation of the cannon Nightmare moon story is totally Luna had a hissy fit, it isn't a slight against you. About a week after watching the premier, I decided the cannon explanation didn't cut it.

4070865

If Celestia truly was working on a replacement for the EoH, protection from the EoH, or the way to reactivate the EoH, why would she just leave the EoH in the old castle?

They might have gotten there after the failed attempt, because Celestia gave up. For all we know she might even have deposited them there one night before the summer sun celebration for Twilight to find them.

Him trying to copy the EoH without one makes more sense. But even so, why? If it was just for science, he could have dropped by the castle. If Celestia didn't care enough to lug them with her shower curtains, she probably wouldn't mind him having a look.

Maybe she feared the power he might gain. Or when the elements turned to stone they also lost or blocked their inner enchantments and were nothing more than stones until the Main 6 reactivated them.

Besides, we don't even know if he knew about their whereabouts. So far we only know of one book telling us where they are. And by the awfully convenient selection of information in it, we again have to look at the chance that it is a hint by Celestia, meant specifically for the Mane 6.

4070865 Do nothing? It's not like she stopped existing as soon as Twilight was expelled.

I assume that she was having fun. Not everything needs to be plots and diabolical schemes: if I knew that my time as king was only temporary, I'd certainly try to enjoy myself a little first. And what'd somepony as superior and arrogant as Trixie want best? Why, bullying and bossing everyone else around, of course.

If she was sane at the time, I can only imagine how hard Trixie was laughing internally as her slaves were pulling that monster of a sled. I just think she meant for her little holiday to have lasted longer.

4069030
Most of the time it didn't do anything appreciable, but I do remember that it would significantly speed up some MS-DOS games.

4068545

Sorry about being late, but I was busy yesterday:

> "It's an allegory for the corruption of power," to which I would say, "what about the Elements of Harmony?"

Piracy examines the hypothesis that the Elements of Harmony corrupt the users:

Piracy

4068545

In-universe, I think it was made by somebody like Sombra who wanted to manipulate power and barely cared for morals, if not outright rejected them. What better than an artefact that makes you powerful and removes any vestige of virtue at the same time? If someone like Star Swirl had created it, it would almost certainly be an unintentional side-effect, especially considering what horrors resulted when he tried tampering with cutie marks.

Out-universe, it was a way for the writers to eat their cake and have it. The funny thing is that nothing Trixie actually does under its influence is that wildly out of character, and for all the fuss about the amulet's corruption, it's basically doing what Trixie wanted anyway. It helps her get revenge on the town where her humiliation started, and it even allows her to abuse those annoying fans that brought the Ursa that exposed her as all talk and no punch. There are only two things in the episode that indicate any amulet-based corruption is occurring: the library book saying it is, and the rushed and insincere (or just plain lazy) apology scene at the end that should have ended up on the cutting room floor.

As for the "power corrupts" idea, it feels like a needlessly complicated way of explaining what we were presumably intended to take at face value: that the corruption is an actual magical side-effect that wears off after use. Ockham's razor would dismiss it, given what actually went down in the episode.