As a long-time doubter of several things in The Bible, I'm hoping someone in this group can manage to answer me on this:

So, from what I understand, God is all powerful, and can do anything he wants. Not only that, but he sees all, and has a plan for everyone. Such is the reason why bad things may happen. For example: "Mom, why did Dad have to die?" "Don't worry son. God has a plan. We just cant understand his ways."

And such. Essentially, since God is God, all that has happened has been a part of his grand scheme.

However... what about those people who went against God? Like Eve eating an apple, or Lucifer rebelling, or Sodom burning. Were they really committing sins if all of their actions had been planned from the start? Doesn't that mean that God specifically wanted these events to happen? Didn't God technically want Eve to eat that apple because that would start his plan off? Did she suffer for eternity for breaking God's rule, even when he always knew she would break it? Was that part of the plan? If so, did Eve have any say in this plan?

I can apply this to all major sinners in The Bible, and honestly, no one can provide me with an answer. This is called the Christian Debate Club, so let's talk about it...

3072563
The bible neither said that Yahweh was omnipotent, nor that he had any kind of plans for humans.

That's a little tidbit that Catholics made up to make their comforting stories even more comforting.

3072594 Ah... but what about that part where men can't have long hair (Corinthians 11:44), and there's a story about a MAN WHO GAINS STRENGTH FROM HAVING NEVER CUT HIS HAIR!?

3072674 thats different, that was it was part of the pact he had with god

3072674
Not just a man, but a group of them. The judges were an entire sect of men, chosen from birth to be the enforcers of god's word.

And somehow, even though god finds it shameful for a man to have long hair, he takes away the power of his chosen enforcers if they dare to cut their "shameful" long hair.

Well, I guess he cut that part out after he found out that his son was being rebellious, and keeping his long hair because he was in that "Messiah Phase".

3072723 So, God occasionally breaks his own rules, just because? Can you imagine how awkward that conversation must have been...

Samson: God, thank you for bestowing me with such strength.
God: Sure. But be warned, if you ever cut your hair, then your power will be taken away.
Samson: Wait, I thought you wanted us to keep our hair short, or we'll go against nature, and therefore, you?
God: Don't question me. I'm God.
Samson: Either way, I'm still going against your wishes.
God: Just go and smite all those who oppose me.
Samson: I thought the Sixth Commandment said--
God: That's it! You're getting your eyes ripped out!

3072563 God didn't want it to happen, he never would. But he knew it had to happen in order for his plan for us to come to fruition. Almost like a general having to sacrifice his soldiers to win an important battle.

But he's God. He created the universe. Are you telling me that GOD, a being with unlimited power, needed to make a sacrifice to make his plan come true. Why? He's God. If he didn't need a sacrifice, then there would not be a sacrifice.

Plus, if he had a plan, than that would mean all actions for everybody's life were specifically supposed to happen. Therefore, any sin anyone committed needed to happen for the grand plan, making the point of having sins entirely meaningless, as they will happen regardless.

Plus, God didn't want it to happen, but it needed to be done? Says who? Super God? I didn't know God needed to follow orders from anyone. I guess he isn't so "all-powerful" after all.

3072563 Honestly, you asked a question I can't give a solid answer and would have to read more to clarify that. I would like to read more to be able to answer your question friend. As of now, I do not have an answer for your interesting question.

3073798 Unfortunately, that's what everyone says. "I'll have to keep reading." Seriously, this is important stuff, because questions like this are what make people doubt. And yet, no one can ever respond, because really, I doubt there is a response.

Although thank you for the honest answer.

3073822 You're welcome. Most don't even think upon these things, but it's an interesting question, and I'll read to see if it can be answered.

I wish you luck. And thank you for the follow.

3073822 Not all questions have an answer. You can design a question in a way that there can't be any good answer to it. For example:

Can god create a stone that is so heavy, that even he/she can't lift it?

Your question may have a similar nature.

3077630

Can god create a stone that is so heavy, that even he/she can't lift it?

Here is the usual answer to this question that I will just get it of the way before someone posts it.

He is god, he is all powerful, he is so powerful he can break and change logic itself.
He can make a stone so heavy he can't lift it, yet still lift it because he is just that powerful.

I don't think this myself, kind of hard to think this when you worthship Sithis and the Great Potato not God. I was just posting it before someone else did.

3072563

Shh... I'll tell you a secret.
There is no god. There is no plan.
Don't tell these guys, though, It'll ruin their 'comfort'.

3072563

However... what about those people who went against God? Like Eve eating an apple, or Lucifer rebelling, or Sodom burning. Were they really committing sins if all of their actions had been planned from the start?

Yeah, there's not going to be any answer for you. It's the Problem of Evil.

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
3. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
5. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

Epicurus (probably) said it best:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

God is omniscient. So he knew humanity would 'turn evil'. But he put the tree there in the garden anyway, knowing they would eat from it. He then proceeded to punish every human from then on for the actions he knew would happen given the starting conditions he created.

And that's totally okay! If you posit that god isn't actually benevolent. Which nobody is going to accept.

3078084 Dude, stop talking like that. You're ruining the fun...

3078275 I'm not looking for a logical answer. I want a response from someone who believes, so I can know why they would think that. So please stop posting you're logic and reasoning.

We all have been given minds to fuck up. In the Bible, God has been said to be omnipotent. You hear God's omnipotence a lot in Revelation. Let me tell you this quote:

That's my stance on it my agnostic friend.

Guys, listen to 3080049 and stop using your logic and reason. You know they don't mix with religion!

3072563
From my understanding, yes, God has a plans for everything and anything. What we have though, is free will. Also, what the Enemy inteands for evil, God can chang for good. In this sense, say God had a plan for Joe. Joe starts out on the right path, following God, reading his Bible and such. God has great things destined for Joe. But, Joe decieded (free will) to start hanging out with some bad friends who lead him off of the righteous path. The Enemy has just used this to hopefully destroy Joe's life, but God can turn this situation around to something good. However, if Joe does not want to change, Joe will simply continue down the bad road. God needs willing hearts to accomplish things in His Kingdom. Joe takes a u-turn and starts heading towards Christ again, God can use that instace as a testimony of God's grace.
My point is that yes, God does have a plan, he is all knowing and all powerful and somethings about him we just don't understand. However, you (since you have free will) will ultamaitly be the one to deciede your fate.

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death blessings and curses. Now, choose life..."
Deuteronomy 30:19

Hope this helps,
Estrella Scrolls

3903340 Could you clarify what you mean by wanting to change? If you mean wanting to believe in god or such, there are lots of Atheists who wish a god exists, myself included. Thing is that I want to believe in god without faith, which god knows. He knows exactly what it'd take to convince me he exists so why doesn't he? I can choose to believe in him without evidence, yes, but god knows I'm not going to do that, or at least not genuinely believe if I said so.

And if you're going to do so, before you talk about being 'made' to think in a certain way removes free will, showing someone evidence for something for the purpose of making them believe what that evidence supports isn't a removal of free will. One can still choose not to believe it, though a reasonable person will choose to accept the evidence and do so. Persuasion =/= coercion.

3072563
Simplest way to explain it is that a dentist recommends that his patients take better care of their teeth, but he doesn't make them. I personally suspect that if God controlled everything we did, we'd no longer be as interesting to him, so though he gives us guidelines and rules so we don't wipe each other out, he still lets us have free will and leaves us to our own devices.