Now that it's completed, I'd like to put "Just Us Little Ponies" up for quorum analysis. Personally, I'd like it to be a canon episode, with the story taking place in early Spring. To the best of my knowledge, JULP doesn't conflict with anything else established in canon at this point.

I've had a lot of trouble judging this fic, mostly because I've had a lot of trouble even reading it in the first place. Not because it's "bad" per say. It doesn't offend my sensibilities the way Carrot Top Season or Old Friends do (or at least the parts I've managed to read and recall don't). The problem is that it just doesn't make me feel much of ANYTHING at all. The whole thing is just too dry, bland, and outright boring for me to even work up enough concern for me to care about it either good or bad.

The only character that seems to act out of any genuine emotion is Snails and possibly Max (~maybe~ Greengrass as well). Everyone else, just seems to be mere voice boxes for plot exposition and message mongering. This is especially bad in scenes like Raindrops chewing out Cheerilee's friend for being a former smuggler. These are supposedly our MAIN characters, the heroes every one is here to read about in the first place, but here they just seem like little more than walking talking scenery. Simply put, this doesn't in any way feel like the work of a supposedly experienced Lunaverse author, let alone a member of the Quorum.

A story needs be more than just a sequence of events, there needs to be actual weight and meaning to those events, a reason for the audience to care about the story being told, and this fic just doesn't have any. Not in it's earliest chapters at least, and NO, it gets better latter is never a good excuse. Any story that fails to immerse it's read from the start, is a poor story. It doesn't matter if it gets better later if the reader has no invested reason to see it through to that end.

Admittedly, maybe this is just me. We all know I don't much get along with G&C or approve of his opinions and methods. I don't think this is just me being biased though. By contrast for example, Ice Hearts was a fic I was very resistant to pre-publishing. Once I actually read it though, it one me over almost instantly, largely in thanks to Puissance's who further inspired me in my own writing. There just isn't anything any JULP here that inspires me, quite the opposite actually. I've been a huge Greengrass supporter in the past (one of the very few), so that I'm bored by a fic ostensibly centering around his return seems like it should speak for something.

Now if no one else has any of these problems, than I won't press the argument or try to block this fics canonicity. If nothing else, it at least seems mostly harmless. Well... excluding Greengrass's off-screen loss of rank/privilege which I still think is a HUGE mistake. He was the big arc villain of S1, if he was going to suffer such losses it should have been directly in front of the audience, preferably at the climax of AtGGG where it could be the most viscerally satisfactory to the reader. As it stands this fic is just plain insulting to the specific lack of any such scene in AtGGG.

...but I digress.

Anyway though, I'm not sure "harmless" is a good enough reason to approve a fic that doesn't really have anything else positive going for it. G&C has admitted in his blog that he wrote this fic as something of test of his skills at speed writing, and while he's proud of the accomplishment, I think the end result displays a distinct lack of quality for having been rushed. I know he can do better than this and so personally to me this still feels very much like a beta work in need of further revision and polishing. As such, I think my own vote has to be a NO, but I won't actively try to convince anyone else to change their votes if contrary.

3247235 :

Well... excluding Greengrass's off-screen loss of rank/privilege

? We saw GG lose his rank/privilege in this story. That's in the flashback in Chapter 8. There's an entire musical number about it. In fact, we see numerous flashbacks about what happened to GG starting in Chapter 4, including how he first began to bond with Max, when he left the Court, and when he and Notary saw each other for the final time.

And in terms of positive... it showcases the bond between Raindrops and Snails, which is something we haven't really done a lot of despite them being family. It also shows more of Raindrops when she's angry, which hasn't really been in play since your own griffin story. It shows the knight's increasing maturity as they were able to grapple with a fairly tough problem and some physically powerful foes, despite not having the Elements and a motley band of backup (Max, Greengrass, Twilight-with-no-magic) that aren't exactly the most combat-ready ponies in the world. It shows Cheerilee's more rogueish attitudes coming into conflict with Max's more law-and-order type ones, and helps both of them see the other's point of view. And we see Carrot Top demonstrating her own more subtle talents as well. I think that these benefits to Snails, Raindrops, Cheerilee, and Carrot Top are useful to the verse.

It also opens up numerous story possibilities at the end, re what happens to the villain characters, will any of these folks show up again in CoC, how do the knights feel about the Shadowbolts now, etc.

3247285
Look, I know I said I wouldn't try to change anyone else's opinion, but that is partially contingent upon no one else trying to change mine. I get that as the author of this fic you're naturally passionate about and defensive of all the work you put into it, but that's not really the kind of arguments that this Quorum exists for. So you really probably should just sit back, let everyone else sound in their own opinion, and wait for a final decision to be made before making an argument that might not even need to be made in the first place.

3247473 : But you're saying things that are not true. You said that Greengrass's fall was offscreen and that it should have been in front of the reader; it was in front of the reader, in Chapter 8 of JULP, and I think it's important to note that.

I'll hold off on the 'what does this add' part, but I think it's fine to correct factual mistakes.

3247480
Flashbacks that take *EIGHT* whole chapters to reach don't really count. That's still seven chapters, averaging 8000+ words each, of the reader being denied crucial information (and that's not counting the fact we've actually been waiting longer than that since this was an issue first alluded to way back in OF). Even when it is finally covered that also still doesn't change the fact that we are only finding out about it all months after the fact. The end result just diminishes the entire narrative weight of such events -- and *AGAIN*, it's just plain inconsiderate to the way AtGGG was specifically engineered so that such an outcome wouldn't happen. If Greengrass is to fall any further than he did in AtGGG than it's something that deserves to be the central premise of its own story, not tacked on as an afterthought in an otherwise unrelated fic.

This isn't a matter of a factual mistakes. I get that you've rationalized the reason for telling the story in this manner -- what I'm saying is that it's CRAPPY way to tell the story. Admittedly, maybe that's all just my own opinions, but my opinions are what got me appointed to this quorum in the first place, so it would be remiss of me not to express them in full.

3247111
Warning: Long post is LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

For the record, I haven't read Emeral's response up there yet.

First and foremost, it struck me around chapter 3 or 4 that this was, fundamentally, a rewrite of Siege of Stalliongrad. Sure, there were significant changes and the focus was different, but I definitely noticed that this was basically Siege, or at least a close cousin to it. That isn't necessarily bad, but it does mean that I'm basically making all my judgments and calls about this fic while simultaneously thinking about my opinions on Siege (which I thoroughly enjoy as a non-canon story but just as thoroughly feel should not be made canon). So just a heads-up about that.

Max worked well here, in my opinion. Nothing else really needs to be said on that; I think you managed to do a good job with him. Fragrant, somewhat less so...she sort of just showed up, did a Fragrant-type thing, and then left. More on that below.

Similarly to Max, Diamond Tiara, Silver Spoon, and Snails worked. The former two got to be in full-on bully mode for once in the Lunaverse (something that's otherwise been sorely lacking), while Snails was he usual loveable self. I can even buy into the ending with the two of them deciding they need to be "better" from now on. I doubt it will stick forever, but it certainly could serve as a reason for them to be nicer in future stories. Sort of showing more maturity as they grow up.

Oddly, I don't like the ice cream amulet for some reason. I can't conceive of why, but something about it doesn't feel right. However, I do like the idea of Snails having a pet Hercules beetle from now on. Does he have a name?

Greengrass worked here, basically. I'm...wary...whenever he shows up, mostly because whenever he does I get flashbacks to AtGGG and the drama surrounding it (rather than anything to do with Greengrass himself; when I think of Greengrass RE: AtGGG, I just remember how hard I found it to write for him as compared to Puissance or Blueblood). Here, though, I think he basically managed to serve his purpose without inciting too many bad memories.

Having said that...if I have one complaint, it's that, during the flashback scenes, the song bits tended to sort of drag. It's weird for me to say that, since I generally like the song parts of any fic you write. This was a rare exception, for whatever reason. I found myself generally skimming the lyrics at best to "get back to the story."

Also, I'm guessing that writing this was sort of giving Greengrass a more positively-spun, and certainly larger, conclusion than what I did in AtGGG, which I fully admit was partially due to fatigue. Provided that this is, in fact, a conclusion, save for maybe a cameo here and there in the future, I think he was pulled off basically successfully, since he never really admits that anything he did was wrong or that he regretted it. He's not "redeemed" so much as "moving on;" in either event, though, I don't think we really gain anything by seeing him again.

I don't think I really like him as a sort of "trickster mentor" to Max on a permanent basis, but if he really can move back to and get a job in Caneighda, then I think it's okay that he hung out with Max early on before going off to do his own thing, now that the Night Court is closed to him.

Cheerilee basically worked. I think I would have preferred a little more vagueness with her past - one of the fun things about her wild youth is that we don't really know too much about it. It would probably work better if we only ever saw bits and pieces without context in the form of flashbacks, rather than having her actually explain anything. Other than that, you pulled her off.

Raindrops, I wasn't so sure about. You did a good job with her getting angrier and angrier throughout the day, but I'm not so sure I buy into her "stop right there, criminal scum!" attitude that she maintained. Maybe if it was more obviously alluded to, as we see in the end, that it's not really the criminals she has problems with, it's Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon and the way they treated her brother, and she's just projecting that onto the criminals and ex-cons. It seems like she suddenly just got a whole lot of character development at the end of the fic. Maybe add a few more perspective parts for her in the beginning, especially in the first chapter.

Carrot Top...sorry to say, but I think you kind of bungled her. She was sort of just along for the ride the entire time. She was less a character and more a prop. Which isn't to say that she didn't have some good bits - the exchange between her and Raindrops RE: simple dreams and laser eye vision certainly made me laugh. But I'm not sure I like her as basically content to be playing second string because she has achieved a sort of Zen-like state of mind that makes her okay with that being her place in the universe and, even worse, be KNOWN to be the least threatening of the Elements, all of whom have, after all, battles alicorns and dragons and liches and such. More than anything, I think I'd like to see a version of this fic with Carrot Top's role expanded to be more than just "giver of good advice." I get that that might make it difficult for her to help Snails out of his funk, but I think that small sacrifice is worth it.

I'd like to take this time to air a flaw I've noticed in your writing...protagonists, or at least the "good" guys. You tend to write them in a fairly linear, single-minded way that lacks depth. For example, Carrot Top. You write her as though she IS generosity and everything about her stems from that fact and builds off of it. Fragrant had a similar problem, which is saying something since she only showed up for one scene - yet she just came across as so flat in that one scene.

As another example from a different work, Octavia post-Symphony of the Moon and Sun. She plays music for Luna, does stuff in order to learn different kinds of music to play for Luna, etc. She kind of lacks any real depth anymore.

Now, this isn't a blanket statement; as a counter-example, you definitely wrote Raindrops with depth and gave her internal conflict and competing desires and so on. She didn't come across as RAINDROPS: ELEMENT OF HONESTY to me (even if I wasn't fully onboard with what you did write her as), which is good. If you could write all your protagonists like that, you'd be in a good place.

(I specify "protagonists" because I've noticed that this doesn't tend to extend to antagonists that you write, for whatever reason. You can write them with all sorts of nuance when you want to. Fisher, Greengrass, Puissance...on a related note...ICE HEARTS! UPDATE! NAO! ...please? )

On a more positive note, Twilight was okay. She's supposed to be a secondary character, so I don't mind her small role, and I think you did a good job with her. Fisher also worked as an antagonist for Mounty. This would make a good conclusion to Fisher's own arc, as well - I can't see a reason to use him after this fic, and your last section with him virtually ensured that Volk is now the only pony we care about in his particular sphere. Not sure about Night Light as becoming the Minister of War, though, for some reason, even though his boast in AtGGG to Ditzy would certainly seem to make him a good candidate. Maybe instead have him simply become the interim minister while Luna sorts though a list of possible permanent candidates (of which he may be one, I dunno).

Alluding to Volk as maybe being a changeling works here. Let's keep the changeling references down to just this fic if it passes the Quorum, though: Corona needs to be the front-and-center Big Bad.

Finally...Luna. Like Carrot Top, I don't think you handled her very well. As much as Luna might not like Greengrass, if the stallion came up to her and said, "somepony's life is in danger, I need your help," I don't think she'd turn him down, especially if Greengrass was just up-front about it - and as much as Greengrass likes his manipulations and games and so forth and so on, he's also supposed to be intelligent and care about Notary, so I can't see a valid reason for him to not just be totally truthful. Then, there's the sheer level of malice she directs towards him. It's not just that she told him that he has no chance of getting back into the Night Court, it's the way she went about it: in front of Max (ostensibly one of his friends, which Luna would know about), Snails, Twilight, Raindrops, Cheerilee, and Carrot Top.

I don't think she'd hate him. Her actions in AtGGG were born entirely out of anger at Greengrass and what he was spewing forth from Truth is a Scourge. This, though, takes place some months later. If anything I'd expect her to have a private audience with Greengrass and outline exactly why it is that he's not going to be allowed back into the Night Court - but she'd do it in such a way as to, hopefully, try to make him understand and accept this and come to terms with it and basically help him try to move on, not just say to him what amounts to "fuck off" in front of a half-dozen other ponies.

Now, as to the story itself. Like I said at the beginning of this rant, it didn't escape my notice that this story is basically a close cousin to Siege of Stalliongrad. It certainly is far more likely to pass the Quorum than that story, though. It remains fairly lighthearted throughout; certainly there were some serious moments, but Fisher didn't beat anypony to death with a hammer, so that's good.

Apart from the song bits which, again, I skimmed, I found the story to be basically well paced. It had a sort of slow beginning but definitely picked up around the time that Fisher declared martial law. You managed to balance the myriad plots well, and gave us an...okay...reason for why Notary left Greengrass (I can buy it, what I can't buy is her not coming back after all is said and done).

So...here's my decision. If you were to expand Carrot Top's role, balance Raindrop's characterization better in the beginning of the fic and ensure that the three Element-bearers are portrayed as more than just voiceboxes for the Elements, and just re-work Luna's scene so she comes across as less vindictive, then I think I'd vote YES to canonize this.

3248177

So...here's my decision. If you were to expand Carrot Top's role, balance Raindrop's characterization better in the beginning of the fic and ensure that the three Element-bearers are portrayed as more than just voiceboxes for the Elements, and just re-work Luna's scene so she comes across as less vindictive, then I think I'd vote YES to canonize this.

Actually, for all my potentially harsh words above, I actually agree with this. It's not so much that I think this fic is inherently bad on any fundamental level (disagreements over the implementation of Greengrass's fate aside), but rather that I just feel that in its present form it does a very poor job of reflecting the characters. The L6 just aren't relatable here, which makes it very hard to immerse myself in the flow of the narrative.

So if that, along with ALL of the other issues RDD mentioned were addressed than I'd gladly give it a second chance. It's not that I want to reject this fic outright, I just feel it is in need of further polish and revision first. Assuming of course that G&C himself is willing to work with us here to make this fic live up to it's fullest potential.

3248177

First and foremost, it struck me around chapter 3 or 4 that this was, fundamentally, a rewrite of Siege of Stalliongrad. Sure, there were significant changes and the focus was different, but I definitely noticed that this was basically Siege, or at least a close cousin to it. That isn't necessarily bad, but it does mean that I'm basically making all my judgments and calls about this fic while simultaneously thinking about my opinions on Siege (which I thoroughly enjoy as a non-canon story but just as thoroughly feel should not be made canon). So just a heads-up about that.

Heh. I actually thought of this story before SoS was declared noncanon and had originally intended it to be a sequel to that story, focusing on Raindrops in the same kind of way that SoS was to emphasize Carrot Top. (There's a few vestiges of that, largely in how Raindrops had the largest Elemental role here and CT had the smallest). The basic idea was that Goliath, blaming Fisher for the destruction of Stalliongrad and the death of his sister (who was briefly mentioned in JULP), broke Fisher out of jail so he could give him a more fitting fate than just life in prison, and then just sort of expanded that to other criminals in the city. (Similarly, the reason the Guards were useless in the story's original conception was that they all thought Fisher had instigated the breakout and were trying to track him down, not Goliath.) It was supposed to be a mediation on forgiveness and justice after a great tragedy, arguing about whether or not ponies like Fisher (and implicitly Corona) could be forgiven for their roles in a horrible disaster. Obviously, a lot of that was changed for the new version.

Max worked well here, in my opinion. Nothing else really needs to be said on that; I think you managed to do a good job with him. Fragrant, somewhat less so...she sort of just showed up, did a Fragrant-type thing, and then left. More on that below.

I thought about having her show up again at the end to admonish Max for, once again, having some wacky adventure and almost getting himself killed, but I wasn't sure if it would add anything to have her show up at the end. In the rewrite of the story, I'll probably have her discuss Max's predilection for things like this a little more, to flesh her out by showing that, while she doesn't like the idea of him risking his life, she does like that he's a pony who goes to great lengths to help the ponies of the nation. That should prevent her from being so flat.

Similarly to Max, Diamond Tiara, Silver Spoon, and Snails worked. The former two got to be in full-on bully mode for once in the Lunaverse (something that's otherwise been sorely lacking), while Snails was he usual loveable self. I can even buy into the ending with the two of them deciding they need to be "better" from now on. I doubt it will stick forever, but it certainly could serve as a reason for them to be nicer in future stories. Sort of showing more maturity as they grow up.

Snails did mention that he was going to keep the secret for 'a couple of days', so if we do want them to bully again we can just say Snails felt sorry for them and spilled the beans after that, or that they eventually worked out a way to figure out that the foal store thing wasn't true. And Snails was a blast to write. He's so fun!

Oddly, I don't like the ice cream amulet for some reason. I can't conceive of why, but something about it doesn't feel right. However, I do like the idea of Snails having a pet Hercules beetle from now on. Does he have a name?

I didn't think of a name for the beetle, no. Maybe Atlas, for Charles Atlas?

The ice cream amulet was mostly to give Snails something that was genuinely worthy of being a gift from a princess, but also not serious and not something likely to come up often or in a significant way (if he got, I dunno, an amulet to make him have strong magic or something, it might cause problems later if we wanted him to struggle with a spell). Mostly I just like the image of Snails asking, not for money or power or anything some of the nobles would ask for, but for the ability to consume a lot of dessert without hurting his head. :-) It seemed like the kind of innocent gift a foal might want and that Luna might give.

Having said that...if I have one complaint, it's that, during the flashback scenes, the song bits tended to sort of drag. It's weird for me to say that, since I generally like the song parts of any fic you write. This was a rare exception, for whatever reason. I found myself generally skimming the lyrics at best to "get back to the story."

Aww... those are some of my favorite songs. :-P Maybe it's because I really like the music and so those scenes didn't seem to drag to me. Sorry they didn't work for you.

Also, I'm guessing that writing this was sort of giving Greengrass a more positively-spun, and certainly larger, conclusion than what I did in AtGGG, which I fully admit was partially due to fatigue. Provided that this is, in fact, a conclusion, save for maybe a cameo here and there in the future, I think he was pulled off basically successfully, since he never really admits that anything he did was wrong or that he regretted it. He's not "redeemed" so much as "moving on;" in either event, though, I don't think we really gain anything by seeing him again.

Yeah, I think this ends his arc for a good long while. I don't see him showing up again in S2, or even in S3 except for the very end (Froborr and some other people on the boards mentioned a long time ago that he might be interesting in an episode during the changeling invasion), except maybe for the odd cameo.

Personally headcanon for him is that he does a good job with the limited power Greenmeadow gives him in Caneighda, running the weather department (or whatever) very well and in a non-corrupt manner. Gradually, as Greenmeadow trusts him more, he delegates his son more and more power until his son is once again running the province--just as well as before, but no weeding this time. That, combined with a possibly heroic action during the changeling invasion, convinces Luna to let Greenmeadow declare Greengrass his heir again, so when Greenmeadow ultimately steps down Greengrass has his seat back... except now he actually governs without being an utter tosser. (And Notary returns too at this point, having made her garden by turning around some desolate subprovince that was crumbling into ruins before she arrived). But since none of this involves the L6 in any real way, there is no reason for it to appear in any episodes (except maybe the changeling thing, if we decide to do that and it works with the S3 ending stories).

I don't think I really like him as a sort of "trickster mentor" to Max on a permanent basis, but if he really can move back to and get a job in Caneighda, then I think it's okay that he hung out with Max early on before going off to do his own thing, now that the Night Court is closed to him.

While it likely won't come up much since neither of them are main characters, I actually kind of like the idea of them at least staying in touch (especially since I love the concept of Max being a good influence on GG, and also of GG helping Max to become a little more worldly so he's less able to be tricked). Then again, I liked the Arzaphael/Crowley relationship in Good Omens, which is kind of the vibe I was going for there.

Raindrops, I wasn't so sure about. You did a good job with her getting angrier and angrier throughout the day, but I'm not so sure I buy into her "stop right there, criminal scum!" attitude that she maintained. Maybe if it was more obviously alluded to, as we see in the end, that it's not really the criminals she has problems with, it's Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon and the way they treated her brother, and she's just projecting that onto the criminals and ex-cons. It seems like she suddenly just got a whole lot of character development at the end of the fic. Maybe add a few more perspective parts for her in the beginning, especially in the first chapter.

That's a good point. I'll likely go back and add that, though it might be a while since I have a few orig. fic projects I want to get to first.

Carrot Top...sorry to say, but I think you kind of bungled her. She was sort of just along for the ride the entire time. She was less a character and more a prop. Which isn't to say that she didn't have some good bits - the exchange between her and Raindrops RE: simple dreams and laser eye vision certainly made me laugh. But I'm not sure I like her as basically content to be playing second string because she has achieved a sort of Zen-like state of mind that makes her okay with that being her place in the universe and, even worse, be KNOWN to be the least threatening of the Elements, all of whom have, after all, battles alicorns and dragons and liches and such. More than anything, I think I'd like to see a version of this fic with Carrot Top's role expanded to be more than just "giver of good advice." I get that that might make it difficult for her to help Snails out of his funk, but I think that small sacrifice is worth it.

Probably a fair point. Carrot Top was really only in the story at all for two reasons:

1. I needed someone to help Team Snails survive the mob attack in Chapter 8, and Carrot Top seemed like the best choice because her herbology could be useful in a garden.
2. You said elsewhere that you didn't like how Raindrops and Cheerilee kept being paired up as a team without any variation (I think this was shortly after Oaten finished, when a few people proposed 'Raindrops and Cheerilee go on a violent adventure' stories.) So I added a third party member.

Problem is, I'm not really sure what else Carrot Top could do in the story. Do you think it might make more sense to cut her entirely, and instead of having the prison guards Max calls show up in Chapter 10 to stop Manetelli from escaping, have them show up at the garden to help fight the mob? The prison guards (or Hangem Higher) might also have seemingly stupid talents to help break Snails out of his funk by showing how they can be used.

As another example from a different work, Octavia post-Symphony of the Moon and Sun. She plays music for Luna, does stuff in order to learn different kinds of music to play for Luna, etc. She kind of lacks any real depth anymore.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. She didn't learn anything for Luna in Concert For Ponyville, and I thought she showed some depth there. But I take your overall point.

On a more positive note, Twilight was okay. She's supposed to be a secondary character, so I don't mind her small role, and I think you did a good job with her. Fisher also worked as an antagonist for Mounty. This would make a good conclusion to Fisher's own arc, as well - I can't see a reason to use him after this fic, and your last section with him virtually ensured that Volk is now the only pony we care about in his particular sphere. Not sure about Night Light as becoming the Minister of War, though, for some reason, even though his boast in AtGGG to Ditzy would certainly seem to make him a good candidate. Maybe instead have him simply become the interim minister while Luna sorts though a list of possible permanent candidates (of which he may be one, I dunno).

Sure, I can make Night Light interim minister--and maybe even mention them changing the name to something like Minister of Defense, to showcase how Fisher's reign in that position is over.

As for Fisher, I think it's fine to just have him be arrested at the end of this story. While I did have one more Fisher idea, I don't have time to write it and I doubt anyone else will want it. So he can go straight to jail.

(In case anybody cares: the idea was a Summer episode, and the concept was that Volk would manipulate Fisher into thinking his research team had developed a way to 'extract' the Elements from the Bearers. The spell wouldn't actually work and would just kill the Bearers, but Fisher wouldn't know that. So he tries to abduct the Elements and a few others ponies {to test the spell with} and--because the procedure requires a vast amount of energy--take them to the nearest leyline, which runs under the Castle of the Pony Sisters in the Everfree. He plans to take the Elements by drawing on the leyline to cast the extraction spell, then put the Elements in his own troops and fight Corona. Problem is, he misses two--Carrot Top, whom he likes and thinks he might be able to get to join him, and Cheerilee, who beats up the guys he sends to nab her. They pull together a team and go rescue their friends. I'd liked three things in particular about the idea: one, magic duel between Trixie and a leyline-powered Fisher. Two, the rescue team would be entirely earth ponies--Cheerilee, Carrot Top, Bon Bon, Applejack, Notary, and Mayor Mare--which I thought would be cool. Three, Corona would show up at the end because she sensed someone screwing with the leyline, just in time to fight off a big Everfree monster before it attacked some of Fisher's hostages, thus making some of the populace like her more. The story ended with the hostages and Elements breaking free, Fisher's guards being arrested, and Fisher's spell backfiring on him, because that's what happens to bad guys who try to work with energy fields larger than their own heads. But as I said above, I don't have time to write it, and it seems like it could get fairly dark, so I'm fine with Fisher just getting shackled.)

Alluding to Volk as maybe being a changeling works here. Let's keep the changeling references down to just this fic if it passes the Quorum, though: Corona needs to be the front-and-center Big Bad.

I believe Lev is also having one of the OCs in Voice of the Sun (Boot Heel, maybe) give the 'What do you love' line, according to the outline he sent you. I agree, though, that we want to keep the number of possible changelings fairly low.

Finally...Luna. Like Carrot Top, I don't think you handled her very well. As much as Luna might not like Greengrass, if the stallion came up to her and said, "somepony's life is in danger, I need your help," I don't think she'd turn him down, especially if Greengrass was just up-front about it - and as much as Greengrass likes his manipulations and games and so forth and so on, he's also supposed to be intelligent and care about Notary, so I can't see a valid reason for him to not just be totally truthful. Then, there's the sheer level of malice she directs towards him. It's not just that she told him that he has no chance of getting back into the Night Court, it's the way she went about it: in front of Max (ostensibly one of his friends, which Luna would know about), Snails, Twilight, Raindrops, Cheerilee, and Carrot Top.

My view was that Luna just didn't believe him when he was all, "So, I need you to investigate a seemingly perfect noble because she's totally got my secretary held hostage and might kill her in a matter of hours. Honest." The Baronetess of Opelick, while prone to panicking, didn't leave enough evidence for Greengrass to get an actual warrant, so he basically had to ask ponies to trust him. And he found out the hard way that nopony trusted him. (Mind-reading wasn't an option for complicated reasons.)

I don't think she'd hate him. Her actions in AtGGG were born entirely out of anger at Greengrass and what he was spewing forth from Truth is a Scourge. This, though, takes place some months later. If anything I'd expect her to have a private audience with Greengrass and outline exactly why it is that he's not going to be allowed back into the Night Court - but she'd do it in such a way as to, hopefully, try to make him understand and accept this and come to terms with it and basically help him try to move on, not just say to him what amounts to "fuck off" in front of a half-dozen other ponies.

As for later... fair enough. I had the idea that she was a bit more vindictive than I guess she is in the Lunaverse. I could instead see Luna instead explaining that, while she's glad that GG does seem to have learned to think of others besides himself (like with Snails, and also Twilight in the tunnels), one good deed there isn't enough to overcome a lifetime of corruption, and she still isn't convinced that, if he was in the Court, he wouldn't go back to playing games with ponies lives, or even that he's really repentant since he only seems to regret the last gambit he pulled which got him turfed and separated from Notary. Maybe she even mentions the 'Greenmeadow might take you on as his provincial [weather/school/environmental/whatever] manager' part instead of Max, to indicate the path he needs to take if he wants to achieve real redemption--working selflessly for the ponies in his province, proving he can rule the place ethically.

You managed to balance the myriad plots well, and gave us an...okay...reason for why Notary left Greengrass (I can buy it, what I can't buy is her not coming back after all is said and done).

She might exchange letters with Greengrass, but she can't come back--GG lived, but he still has nothing to offer her, so he would rather she stay and build up her garden than return and risk being smeared by associating with the disgraced Greengrass. And she knows this. They both miss each other dearly, but they both know that, in order for at least one of them to achieve her dreams, they can't be together at the moment.

(I would hope, though, that at some point Notary does turn Bitsberg around, and when it's a thriving and happy town--blooming, despite the efforts of everyone else who had tried to fix it up failing--Notary returns triumphant to Canterlot.)

So...here's my decision. If you were to expand Carrot Top's role, balance Raindrop's characterization better in the beginning of the fic and ensure that the three Element-bearers are portrayed as more than just voiceboxes for the Elements, and just re-work Luna's scene so she comes across as less vindictive, then I think I'd vote YES to canonize this.

I can do those things (with the possible caveat of dumping CT from the story entirely instead of expanding her role), though likely not for a while. I have some other projects I want to work on before returning to Ponyfic. :-)

I think I need to abstain from voting in this circumstance. I have yet to read the story, but...well, there is one issue.

I don't want to read anything about Greengrass again.

I don't think I could ever be a fair judge in this case. I just hate the character that much.

3248583 : I dunno, I'd think that, if you hated GG, you'd want to read a story which opens with him getting a prophecy that 'today will be the worst day of [his] life so far.'

3248563

In the rewrite of the story, I'll probably have her discuss Max's predilection for things like this a little more, to flesh her out

Alternatively, I might suggest just cutting Fragrant's role entirely. The last thing this fic needs is more extraneous character exposition. I think you should instead focus any revision efforts on shoring up the characters that actually have an essential role to play. Besides, if we really want to show Max developing as a leader than he should be able to do so while standing on his own without Fragrant, especially if she only be there to berate him for going off on some fool adventure.

Though, maybe something between just the two of them in relation to this fic could make a good webisode.

Problem is, I'm not really sure what else Carrot Top could do in the story. Do you think it might make more sense to cut her entirely,

Maybe. Her reasons for even being in Canterlot in the first place are rather week in the first place and her role never amounts to much. I do however think that the fic works better with three of the L6 instead of only two. More so I think if anypony should get cut, Twilight would be the one to go. I just don't think this is a story that really warrants using her, nor that she really gains anything from being involved in these events. In fact, I think it kind of hurts her previous character development. The time spent on her could then better spent finding things for CT to contribute to the story.

--or--

If you really need a unicorn maybe replace both Carrot Top and Twilight with Lyra. Of all the L6 she's the most likely to tag along for a random road trip. Heck, the whole idea of taking the opportunity to catch a play about the L6's heroics would be more fitting for her than CT anyway. Plus, it would give you one pony of each tribe in you heroic trio here. Additionally Lyra is one of the L6 you generally write better, so having her along might help shore up the other two as well.

Part of me might want to suggest you take it a step further and find a use for BonBon as well, especially as I think she'd be a better outlet for the never forgive a criminal attitude that seems so out of place on Raindrops. Maybe even work back in some of what you'd wanted to do with her an Lyra's relationship back in SoS. Though I think which one give a speech to the other should be reversed, as we don't really need BonBon angsting over losing Lyra when it would be so much more uplifting and empowering for her to instead be the one encouraging her love to be an even better hero and to never hold back. Still, that might all be too much of revision, so I could understand if you didn't feel up to it.

Personally headcanon for him is that he does a good job with the limited power Greenmeadow gives him in Caneighda,

So I was finally able to properly go over the flashback, and I'm still strongly of the opinion that Greengrass's loss of rank is horribly mishandles. There are aspects like, such as the idea that his last act in the court is to willingly resign as a scheme to accomplish something he values more than his own selfish gain. However, the exact scenario here is just far to contrived. Plus again, as I said before this is an event that deserved to be the focus of it's own story and not a tacked on flashback. Maybe if you could instead find a way to combine the events to so that Greengrass's resignation is part of resolving the current crisis it would make the whole story far more cohesive.

Also, on a further note. his seat on the court and his position as the Duke of Caneighda are not supposed to be one and the same, as there are more nobles in Equestria than seats in the court.. He should be able to resign the court without while retaining his potion as a provincial governor. More over if you just see him doing governmental work in his own province anyway, and eventually regaining his title in the process, than he might as well just stay a duke the whole time.

She might exchange letters with Greengrass, but she can't come back--GG lived, but he still has nothing to offer her, so he would rather she stay and build up her garden than return and risk being smeared by associating with the disgraced Greengrass. And she knows this. They both miss each other dearly, but they both know that, in order for at least one of them to achieve her dreams, they can't be together at the moment.

Moreover, I just can't agree with this notion in anyway shape or form, and I think it's all the more reason Greengrass should remain Duke of Caneighda. The two of them sinned together and so if either of them is to have any chance at genuine redemption then that really needs to be another path they walk together as well. Everything you conceive of Notary doing alone in Bitsburg would work just as well but have more meaning if she instead did it in Caneighda alongside Greengrass.

I have some other projects I want to work on before returning to Ponyfic.

That's cool, and I wish you all the best of luck. Though in the meantime, you might want to add a note in your fic's description to inform readers that it will be undergoing future revision (maybe change the status from "complete" to "hiatus")

3248644

Alternatively, I might suggest just cutting Fragrant's role entirely. The last thing this fic needs is more extraneous character exposition. I think you should instead focus any revision efforts on shoring up the characters that actually have an essential role to play. Besides, if we really want to show Max developing as a leader than he should be able to do so while standing on his own without Fragrant, especially if she only be there to berate him for going off on some fool adventure.

Without Fragrant, though, Max's scene in Chapter 4 is just him looking through papers, which is a bit boring.

Berate isn't the right word. I think (after discussing with T&T) that Posey, while probably not thrilled about him going off and getting kicked in the head on these adventures, likes that he's the kind of pony who takes protecting the Equestrian civilians very seriously (and literally). In the future she'll want him to make use of the Guards Luna gives him at the end of the story--she doesn't want him risking his life needlessly--but she'd understand that he'd go on his own when there's no other choice, and though she'd be concerned, she wouldn't want him to change and be all, 'on second thought, those abducted criminals can go spin while I eat pie.'

Maybe. Her reasons for even being in Canterlot in the first place are rather week in the first place and her role never amounts to much. I do however think that the fic works better with three of the L6 instead of only two. More so I think if anypony should get cut it Twilight would be the one to go. I just don't think this is a story that really warrants using her, nor that she really gains anything from being involved in these events. In fact, I think it kind of hurts her previous character development.

Twi gets to show off a little character development. It's also impossible to avoid mentioning her in this story anyway, since the whole conceit is 'ponies with criminal records who didn't spend a long time in jail are being abducted.' Even if she wasn't lured to Canterlot to, well, be abducted, she would still be mentioned because she's a pony with a record who 'got off' with house arrest. (Indeed, she's a good case study in that sometimes this is the best option--jail, or hanging, isn't always the right answer). Her presence (at least in spirit) is inevitable, so it makes sense to just have her there. By being there, she also makes it more personal for the Elements, since the abductors went after her friend.

Cutting Carrot Top also gives Twi more to do--she can be the mediator in the Cheerilee/Max argument in CHapter 6, and can have more of an active role fighting the mob in chapter 8.

If you really need a unicorn maybe replace both Carrot Top and Twilight with Lyra. Of all the L6 she's the most likely to tag along for a random road trip. Heck, the whole idea taking the opportunity to catch a play about the L6's heroics would be more fitting for her than CT anyway. Plus, it would give you one pony of each tribe in you heroic trio here. Additionally Lyra is one of the L6 you generally write better, so having her along might help shore up the other two as well.

I don't need a unicorn. In fact, I carefully made sure that the only unicorns involved either had magic-blocking rings on so they couldn't use spells (Twlight) or were foals (Snails). Unicorns make the battle scenes much harder because they have telekinesis and such.

Lyra has no real thematic link with any of this. I don't really think she'd be useful here. (And the play was mostly to give Carrot Top a reason to come into town anyways; it's not important). I don't think Bonbon would add much either.

There are aspects like, such as the idea that his last act in the court is to willingly resign as a scheme to accomplish something he values more than his own selfish gain. However, the exact scenario here is just far to contrived.

I don't think I agree with that. Notary is captured by the Sun Cult, so Greengrass first goes to the nobles (as shown in Chapter 4, to the tune of "The Deal"), but they either don't believe him or don't want to risk being associated with him. He goes to Luna too; she doesn't believe him. He goes to Fisher; Fisher doesn't care. Last, Greengrass goes to Max since Max at least won't let fear of political retribution stop him from doing the right thing (Chapter 6 flashback, to the tune of "Talking Chess"). Max says he does't believe GG but he might if GG could somehow show he had nothing selfish to gain. GG works out how to do that and does it (Chapter 8 flashback, "Endgame #2" and "Endgame #3"), losing his seat but getting a motion passed that so terrifies and enrages the Baronetess that she grabs him. And then GG, once smuggled into the Baronetess' hideout, slips away and frees Notary (Chapter 10 flashback, "Dirty Rotten Number.") It doesn't really feel that contrived to me; it seems natural what the Duke does in each step, and why it works or doesn't.

Maybe if you could instead find a way to combine the events to so that Greengrass's resignation is part of resolving the current crisis it would make the whole story far more cohesive.

GG needed to lose everything, including Notary and the games in the Court that he loved, and hit rock bottom before he could begin to find redemption. He had to already have lost that stuff or he wouldn't have been ready to be good in this story.

Also, on a further note. his seat on the court and his position as the Duke of Caneighda are not supposed to be one and the same, as there are more nobles in Equestria than seats in the court.. He should be able to resign the court without while retaining his potion as a provincial governor. More over if you just see him doing governmental work in his own province anyway, and eventually regaining his title in the process, than he might as well just stay a duke the whole time.

Sure, but the entire point of the first part of his gambit in Chapter 8 was to offer Luna something she wanted--smacking him down--in exchange for overlooking his rescheduling of the Court. Luna, he thought, wouldn't have done it if he'd insisted on keeping his title, since then she wouldn't be as rid of him. (I"m sure she has to meet with the non-seated provincial nobles on occasion.)

Moreover, I just can't agree with this notion in anyway shape or form, and I think it's all the more reason Greengrass should remain Duke of Caneighda. The two of them sinned together and so if either of them is to have any chance at genuine redemption then that really needs to be another path they walk together as well. Everything you conceive of Notary doing alone in Bitsburg would work just as well but have more meaning if she instead did it in Caneighda alongside Greengrass.

The two of them had to lose what they loved, including each other, in order to realize the cost of their sins and strive towards redemption. Their redemption would be less likely if they could take shelter from all their losses by taking stock in each other.

3248644 : Actually, a little more on this...

Moreover, I just can't agree with this notion in anyway shape or form, and I think it's all the more reason Greengrass should remain Duke of Caneighda. The two of them sinned together and so if either of them is to have any chance at genuine redemption then that really needs to be another path they walk together as well. Everything you conceive of Notary doing alone in Bitsburg would work just as well but have more meaning if she instead did it in Caneighda alongside Greengrass.

Caneighda is already a really nice place to live. The Green family has governed it well. But Notary's ultimate goal is to matter, to make a difference (as shown in OF). She won't matter much in Caneighda, even helping the DUke, since, bluntly, Greenmeadow can run the place acceptably without them. But in an abandoned, dying town or subprovince like Bitsberg? There Notary can really matter.

Greengrass worked with Notary not just because she was useful to him, but because he liked her and wanted her to achieve her own goals. Had the Duke taken over power in the Court, she would have done that, because it would matter to be the right-hand mare of Equestria's shadowy king--GG wouldn't be able to rule Equestria all by himself, he would need her help. But the Duke can't get that power anymore, so there's no way for her to achieve her main goal as long as she sticks by his side. So, for her own sake, GG sends her elsewhere.

Let me take the tome to read it and I'll come back with my opinion on it.

Without Fragrant, though, Max's scene in Chapter 4 is just him looking through papers, which is a bit boring.

You could just use Mrs.G instead. Or rearrange the scenes so that one of theL6 could somehow be involved. Or maybe skip the scene entirely and move any important information covered to another scene.

Even if she wasn't lured to Canterlot to, well, be abducted, she would still be mentioned because she's a pony with a record who 'got off' with house arrest.

See and that's where I think you're making this whole fic overly convoluted just to facilitate this message of yours. Why does it even need to be some huge conspiracy to "punish" criminals that escaped justice in the first place? Why can't it just be the simple and straight forward fic about a hodgepodge of criminal making a jail break?

Or if it absolutely must be this conspiracy thing, why not double down the focus on Greengrass and a still by his side Notary instead? It would even work just as well for THIS to be the story where she gets kidnapped. Maybe that makes it less personal for the L6 (aside from I guess Cheerilee), or rather gives them every reason to just let Greengrass suffer for everything he did to make their lives miserable in the past. However, wouldn't it speak even better if they instead help an enemy they have every reason to hate?

GG needed to lose everything, including Notary and the games in the Court that he loved, and hit rock bottom before he could begin to find redemption. He had to already have lost that stuff or he wouldn't have been ready to be good in this story.

There are fundamentally two major problems with that conceit.

First of all people don't have to lose everything before finding redemption. In fact, I would contend that redemption has even more meaning when a person chooses to do the right thing when they actually do still have something left to lose, when it might be easier for them to just play it safe instead to hold on to whatever they have left.

Second, and more importantly, it goes back to it all being a narrative copout. Greengrass's reform has more meaning if it's something that happens here and now (not in some contrived flashback where EVERYTHING was literally stacked against him to the point where he had no other choice). He should starts this fic still being a selfish rotten guy and it is THESE events that cause him to change his ways and start living a better life.

Sure, but the entire point of the first part of his gambit in Chapter 8 was to offer Luna something she wanted--smacking him down--in exchange for overlooking his rescheduling of the Court. Luna, he thought, wouldn't have done it if he'd insisted on keeping his title, since then she wouldn't be as rid of him. (I"m sure she has to meet with the non-seated provincial nobles on occasion.)

As RDD already mentioned, Luna isn't supposed to be that vindictive in the first place.

But Notary's ultimate goal is to matter, to make a difference (as shown in OF).

And to be BLUNT, that was one of the absolute worst contrivance you wrote into that other fic. It literally breaks Notary as a charter and turns her into something utterly pathetic.

More to the point though, the notion that she not only rejects her cutie mark, but has ALWAYS rejected it is ludicrous nonsense. Cutie marks don't just represent a talent that a pony is really good at, but rather that fundamental thing in life that makes a pony most happy above all else. If notary didn't find happiness in supporting others unseen from the background, than she could have never had the epiphany of self-discovery needed to earn such a cutie mark in the first place. If her greatest goal in life was to stand out from the crowd and make a name for herself doing something important than it would be reflected in a more suitably related cutie mark.

3248583
Fair enough. Kudos to you to bowing out, too, rather than taking this as an opportunity to lay into the character.

3248741

See and that's where I think you're making this whole fic overly convoluted just to facilitate this message of yours. Why does it even need to be some huge conspiracy to "punish" criminals that escaped justice in the first place? Why can't it just be the simple and straight forward fic about a hodgepodge of criminal making a jail break?

Because I find that much less interesting and don't want to tell that story. (And it's hardly a huge conspiracy; it involves 3 guys.) If you want to write a story about a jailbreak, that's one thing, but I don't.

Look, I'm willing to make some changes on the Element characters and Luna, but I am not rewriting it to this extent. I'll listen to comments about the quality of the story, like what RDD made, but I'm not interested in comments along the lines of 'you should have written a completely different story, with different villains and a different plot.' That isn't happening and it's not helpful.

Or if it absolutely must be this conspiracy thing, why not double down the focus on Greengrass and a still by his side Notary instead? It would even work just as well for THIS to be the story where she gets kidnapped. Maybe that makes it less personal for the L6 (aside from I guess Cheerilee), or rather gives them every reason to just let Greengrass suffer for everything he did to make their lives miserable in the past. However, wouldn't it speak even better if they instead help an enemy they have every reason to hate?

They're saving the lives mafiosos who are colleagues of the guys that abducted Dinky in 'Hard Bargain'. Besides, helping Notary would make the whole thing too focused on GG; he's in this story but he's not the single main character. Raindrops, Cheerilee, Snails and to a lesser extent Max are. Furthermore, helping someone who isn't Notary better shows how GG has changed. (Also, if GG hadn't changed, the entire backstory--Max and GG becoming friends, Greenmeadow returning to the court, etc--would have to change, which won't work.)

Not only would writing a new story as you suggested screw up the bond between Max and GG, which was one of the points of that part of the plot (showing how Max is friends with, and a good influence on, GG, with friendship being magic and all that), but it would also conflict with Old Friends, which indicated that Notary had left Duke and Cheerilee had no idea why. OF is already canon, so that wouldn't work.

There is no reason for this story to be exclusively focused on GG, and I'm not interested right now in writing a story that is.

Second, and more importantly, it goes back to it all being a narrative copout. Greengrass's reform has more meaning if it's something that happens here and now (not in some contrived flashback where EVERYTHING was literally stacked against him to the point where he had no other choice). He should starts this fic still being a selfish rotten guy and it is THESE events that cause him to change his ways and start living a better life.

Of course he had a choice. He could have let the Cult weed Notary and maintained his power and position in the Court. Thing was, he would rather give up everything else and die than take that choice.

And again--this is not the story of GG's reform. He's in the story, he has some interesting scenes, but this is not about that, and I don't know why you keep criticizing the story for not being the Greengrass-gets-reformed show. That is not the function of this story.

As RDD already mentioned, Luna isn't supposed to be that vindictive in the first place.

Yeah, but GG is all about manipulation. I think he could manipulate her into getting so angry at him that she turfed him irrespective of protocol. Now, a few months later, sure--I'll rewrite the speech at the end so Luna doesn't just tell him to go spin in front of his friends. But that flashback in the Court, when he got himself removed? I think he could pull it off.

And to be BLUNT, that was one of the absolute worst contrivance you wrote into that other fic. It literally breaks Notary as a charter and turns her into something utterly pathetic.

It gives her motivation besides just 'I like commiting crimes for Greengrass.' She wants to make a difference, which is kinda hard in a world run by an alicorn that she thinks is literally omnipotent.

More to the point though, the notion that she not only rejects her cutie mark, but has ALWAYS rejected it is ludicrous nonsense. Cutie marks don't just represent a talent that a pony is really good at, but rather that fundamental thing in life that makes a pony most happy above all else. If notary didn't find happiness in supporting others unseen from the background, than she could have never had the epiphany of self-discovery needed to earn such a cutie mark in the first place. If her greatest goal in life was to stand out from the crowd and make a name for herself doing something important than it would be reflected in a more suitably related cutie mark.

She doesn't understand her cutie mark. She likes her actual talent (which is, in fact, making a difference). But she incorrectly thinks her talent is along the lines of 'recording other, more important, people as they do important things while I sit in the back and take notes' because of the way she got hers (she made a difference by helping a guy dictate his magnum opus, which is both of those things.) And her greatest goal isn't to stand out; she only cares about that insofar as it's hard to make a difference when nopony notices you. But what she wants is to do something meaningful (and something meaningful in a positive way, after Old Friends) that makes her mark on the world. She can't do that helping Greengrass administer Caneighda schools or weather; he doesn't need her for such a minor task and she would be irrelevant if she did that. But the crumbling town of Bitsberg? She could make a difference there.

***

As I mentioned above, I'm willing to make the changes RDD mentioned. Reworking Luna's bit with GG at the end, either expanding CT's role or cutting her entirely, and balance Raindrops' role more in the start of the story. But I'm not chucking the story and writing about a jailbreak or The Duke Abides. It's received enough good feedback here and elsewhere that I think the story is good enough to just need the above tweaks, not a wholesale rewrite.

3248987

(And it's hardly a huge conspiracy; it involves 3 guys.)

It doesn't matter how many guys are actually involved when so much of the story is spent just trying to figure out what's even going on in the first place, not to mention that there actions still manage to get the entire FREEKING capital put on lock down. The number of ponies might not be huge, but the ramifications still are.

Look, I'm willing to make some changes on the Element characters and Luna, but I am not rewriting it to this extent. I'll listen to comments about the quality of the story, like what RDD made, but I'm not interested in comments along the lines of 'you should have written a completely different story, with different villains and a different plot.' That isn't happening and it's not helpful.

Fair enough. I'm not trying to dictate to you that you absolutely must write a different story. I get that you think this is the more interesting story, but part of the problem is that it's not the story you advertised in the fic's description. Plot twists are all fine good, but they must be preformed within reasonable limitations or the just come off as arbitrarily forced and contrived.

Still, if that's story you want to write, fine. I understand the need to follow ones personal passion and muse, even if I don't like where yours tends to lead. Please though, if above all other things I might ask, could you please leave Twilight out of this? Reading many of the other characters in this fic made me yawn, but reading her scenes made me cringe. The poor girl has been through so much in S1, could we please give her S2 off before putting her through any more traumatic experiences. Besides, you sort of once told me in a PM that you weren't going to write a story about anypony trying to take "revenge" on Twilight.

They are; they're helping mafiosos who are colleagues of the guys that abducted Dinky in 'Hard Bargain'.

Which is a plot angle that would have far more relevance and meaning if Ditzt was involved in this story. Otherwise, I'd question if it's even okay for the other L6 to "help" an orginasation that caused one of there friends so much pain.

Furthermore, helping someone who isn't Notary better shows how GG has changed. (Also, if GG hadn't changed, the entire backstory--Max and GG becoming friends, Greenmeadow returning to the court, etc--would have to change, which won't work.)

And again--this is not the story of GG's reform.

See, and that's sort of my problem. Not because I care about whether or not Greengrass ever reforms, but rather because your sort of skipping it. The last time the audience saw him he was still a villain, but when this fic starts he's already gone through an entirely separate set of events that changed his world view. Your basically reforming his character without giving the audience the benefit of sing it play out. Yes you include it all in flashbacks, but that's just not the same since it still leaves his reform as a foregone conclusion and thus denies the audience the chance to ever get personally invested in it.

Moreover, what you really have in this fic is two stories told parallel to each other, both of are actually quite similar as so would probably be better if they were fused into a single more cohesive whole. You've got the flashback story of Greengrass having to give up on selfish desires to save somepony he values more than himself, and you have the story of the L6 needing to team up with former villains to face a more dangerous threat. Furthermore the enemies of both fics are secret more or less conspiracies, even if it is sun cultists in one case and vigilantes in the other. Separately these two stories just respectively trip over each other, but fused together that could be so much stronger.

I know you say Greengrass isn't the main character, but he's still by his mere presence in these events a crucially important character. His legacy from being the big bad of S1 makes it impossible for him to be included without his presence being a big deal, but that problem is that the split nature of the two stories here distracts from your supposed main story. By starting the story post reform, you leave the biggest question hanging over the audiences as "how did he change" when the bigger question really should be "can he change". Furthermore, the mafia ponies where only ever an indirect one-off adversary from S1 (and as mentioned before specifically Ditsy's). Greengrass, however, was an enemy to the L6 as a whole, even if he only ever targeted them individually, so there decision work along side him is again by legacy a much bigger deal, and far more poignant if he's still in apposition where both the characters and audience can be suspicious that he might still be up to his old schemes.

She doesn't understand her cutie mark. She likes her actual talent (which is, in fact, making a difference). But she incorrectly thinks her talent is along the lines of 'recording other, more important, people

And that's why it breaks here as a character, and makes her something entirely incongruent with the setting. Earning a cutie mark is so intrinsically tied to the joy of self discovery and happens at such a formative age that no pony should be able to be so woefully ignorant of the REAL meaning behind there mark. Doubly so since the marks form is based entirely upon a ponies self-image of both who they are and who they want to be. Yes, some ponies might face tragedies later in life that cause them to doubt there own self-worth and by extension doubt the legitimacy of there special talent. We've seen most of the M6 face such crisis faith scenarios on the show multiple times over. No pony, however, should be able to hate there cutie mark starting on the day they earned it though, the day that is supposed to by definition be one of the happiest and most significant of the entire life.

More to the point though is the OF, still comes off as a giant retcon, because there was never even so much as the smallest hint that Notary was anything other than the humble servant she appeared to be. Not even in that profile you had me write for her and which is still up on my dA account, but which is now a great big LIE.

But I'm not chucking the story and writing about a jailbreak or The Duke Abides.

I'm not really asking you to write only one or the other. Rather I'm saying that both the stories you are trying to tell with this fic would work better as a cohesive whole (as singular narrative tract) rather than stitched awkwardly together in there current form where we bounce back and forth between two competing plotline unable to fully invest in either.

Again though, I get that you can only write what you feel to be true. However, when I'm asked to read those words and judge their canonicity I have to do the same. Still, I'm not trying to dictate HOW you write your fic, but rather I'm trying to explain WHY it doesn't work for me while providing examples of what would work better. I know as an author you don't owe me anything as reader, and outside the Lunaverse I respect that distinction 100%. Here though, we are more than just author and reader, we are co-workers on the same group project which means that what we each write has to all co-exist. I know I might often sound overly demanding, but really I'm just throwing idea's at the wall, trying to find some common ground where the two of us could maybe finally agree for a change and start working together the way we are supposed to.

I know that can't all be on your head though, that it means I have to compromise my own ideas as well. So again I'll ask only the single favor that you please write you Twilight out of this story. Do that ONE thing for me and even if though I'll probably still think the rest of JULP is a boring and incongruent waste of potential, I won't speak any more ill of it.

3249481

I get that you think this is the more interesting story, but part of the problem is that it's not the story you advertised in the fic's description. Plot twists are all fine good, but they must be preformed within reasonable limitations or the just come off as arbitrarily forced and contrived.

It's exactly the story advertised. Raindrops goes to Canterlot with a few friends, learns ponies are being abducted, and has to work with a government pony (Max) and an old enemy (Greengrass) to solve the problem.

Still, if that's story you want to write, fine. I understand the need to follow ones personal passion and muse, even if I don't like where yours tends to lead. Please though, if above all other things I might ask, could you please leave Twilight out of this? Reading many of the other characters in this fic made me yawn, but reading her scenes made me cringe. The poor girl has been through so much in S1, could we please give her S2 off before putting her through any more traumatic experiences. Besides, you sort of once told me in a PM that you weren't going to write a story about anypony trying to take "revenge" on Twilight.

Sorry, but no. Twilight's presence in the story is needed, in part because she's really the only pony the vigilantes try to abduct whom the audience already has sympathy for. The others are Greengrass and a bunch of ponies we've never heard of. Them trying to abduct her helps show how the vigilantes aren't doing what they'd claim to be doing (going after really bad guys that the system hasn't caught). It also gives her an opportunity to show a little growth, by having her follow the law after she learns 'oops, a rogue Shadowbolt just tricked me into violating my house arrest.' Rather than flee towards Ponyville, she follows the law, which has provisions for accidental house arrest violations (which Max and Cheerilee work out.) And of course it works out well for her, since Luna knows it wasn't her fault, and so not only doesn't punish her but--as a reward for doing the right thing--lets her spend that Sunday with her family that the rogue Shadowbolt said she'd have before Twi returns to Ponyville.

Also, the story I said I wouldn't write was the jerkass Leverage plot, which doesn't really have anything to do with this one. Jerkass Leverage had a bone to pick with Twilight specifically and hunted her down; these vigilantes just want to round up every criminal who 'got off easy' (read: didn't get sentenced to life) and punish them.

Otherwise, I'd question if it's even okay for the other L6 to "help" an orginasation that caused one of there friends so much pain.

Are you seriously arguing that the L3 should have let the vigilantes execute the Luca brothers? No way. The Lucas are bad ponies, which is why Raindrops flipped out near the end, but our heroes are not going to say, "Yeah, the mafia ponies are smugglers and hitters, so it's okay that a nefarious group abducted them and will presumably kill them. Let's get some cider."

See, and that's sort of my problem. Not because I care about whether or not Greengrass ever reforms, but rather because your sort of skipping it. The last time the audience saw him he was still a villain, but when this fic starts he's already gone through an entirely separate set of events that changed his world view. Your basically reforming his character without giving the audience the benefit of sing it play out. Yes you include it all in flashbacks, but that's just not the same since it still leaves his reform as a foregone conclusion and thus denies the audience the chance to ever get personally invested in it.

He 'reformed' to the extent of giving up everything to save his best friend. That by no means implies that he'll be nice to anyone else. In fact, during his second scene in the story (in chapters 2 and 3), his primary concern is not helping the depressed Snails but getting Snails out of his house before Raindrops shows up, assumes he abducted her brother, and beats him up. He justifies most of his actions throughout the story in terms of selfishness ("If I don't help save Twilight from the vigilantes, Night Light will destroy me.") It's only really in Chapter 8 when he makes the call and says, 'yes, this is stupid from a self-preservation standpoint, but I'll do it anyway.' And that scene both required him to have lost Notary (so he knows how bad it hurts to lose a dear friend) and to know that, if he did the selfish thing and broke Snails, he'd lose Max as well, who is probably his last 'friend' left (if you can call them that).

Greengrass does a good thing in the past when he surrenders his seat/title to save Notary, but I wouldn't really call him a good pony until that part in JULP. After all, even bad people will sacrifice for their friends. So no, his redemption is by no means a foregone conclusion.

I know you say Greengrass isn't the main character, but he's still by his mere presence in these events a crucially important character. His legacy from being the big bad of S1 makes it impossible for him to be included without his presence being a big deal, but that problem is that the split nature of the two stories here distracts from your supposed main story. By starting the story post reform, you leave the biggest question hanging over the audiences as "how did he change" when the bigger question really should be "can he change". Furthermore, the mafia ponies where only ever an indirect one-off adversary from S1 (and as mentioned before specifically Ditsy's). Greengrass, however, was an enemy to the L6 as a whole, even if he only ever targeted them individually, so there decision work along side him is again by legacy a much bigger deal, and far more poignant if he's still in apposition where both the characters and audience can be suspicious that he might still be up to his old schemes.

It's clear that you still haven't read the story, because these things come up. Repeatedly. The group tells Greengrass to go home, they don't want his help anymore, precisely because they do not trust him, in Chapter 6. They only deal with him again because Fisher seals the castle and basically shuts down the city, meaning they have no other allies to call upon. Greengrass starts the story by thinking, "A sad foal is in my house. How can I get rid of him without getting hurt?" instead of "How can I make him feel better?" You keep saying that all of his reform is in the past, but if you actually read this story you'd see that it wasn't so--that while saving Notary was the first good thing he ever did, he still has a long way to go, and he progresses during this story.

It's also thematically appropriate. Greengrass is proof that even a very bad pony can reform and can be useful on the side of good. Hence, the vigilante plan is not the right answer.

And that's why it breaks here as a character, and makes her something entirely incongruent with the setting. Earning a cutie mark is so intrinsically tied to the joy of self discovery and happens at such a formative age that no pony should be able to be so woefully ignorant of the REAL meaning behind there mark. Doubly so since the marks form is based entirely upon a ponies self-image of both who they are and who they want to be. Yes, some ponies might face tragedies later in life that cause them to doubt there own self-worth and by extension doubt the legitimacy of there special talent. We've seen most of the M6 face such crisis faith scenarios on the show multiple times over. No pony, however, should be able to hate there cutie mark starting on the day they earned it though, the day that is supposed to by definition be one of the happiest and most significant of the entire life.

Why not? She got an ambiguous mark (a parchment and quill), which she interpreted as 'you'll be a stenographer' but which really symbolized how she helped a guy write down his magnum opus and reach the greatest achievement of his life--a thing she did which mattered. She was happy when she finished, because she felt like she'd had an impact on the guy's life, but then she noticed her cutie mark and thought it was for the specific thing she did (writing down another guy's accomplishments). Combine that with her belief that alicorns are omnipotent, and there you have it.

More to the point though is the OF, still comes off as a giant retcon, because there was never even so much as the smallest hint that Notary was anything other than the humble servant she appeared to be. Not even in that profile you had me write for her and which is still up on my dA account, but which is now a great big LIE.

How does knowing her motivation (she wants to help GG because she thinks he has a good shot at seizing power, at which point she'll be able to matter since she'll be his right-hand mare) make her not a servant? She's exactly the same as before, just now we know why she's working for a guy like GG.

3249558

Also, the story I said I wouldn't write was the jerkass Leverage plot, which doesn't really have anything to do with this one. Jerkass Leverage had a bone to pick with Twilight specifically and hunted her down; these vigilantes just want to round up every criminal who 'got off easy' (read: didn't get sentenced to life) and punish them.

If that were really the case than you could tell the story without Twilight. You've already included an old friend of Cheerilee's in this fic as a former criminal, that should be enough to get the requisite audience investment you seem to think is so important.

Please, I'm tiered of fighting with you. Everytime I do my love of the Lunaverse dies a little more and I wonder why I even bother still trying to contribute at all. One thing, all I want is just this ONE thing and then you can have EVERYTHING else in JULP no matter how stupid, contrived, or outright boring I think it is. Is that really too much to ask?

It's clear that you still haven't read the story, because these things come up.

It's not for lack of trying, it just that the story is so interminably boring that I can't stay focused on it. I read the words, but my mind keeps zoning out and leaving me with no memorable impression. It's not that I went into this fic looking to shoot it down. In fact, from the outset it looked like something I might actually be able to enjoy, but at every turn it just became less and less interesting. I could never really immerse myself in the narrative, and so it all ended up just being a sequence of bland word that all blur together.

By contrast, Ice Hearts was a fic I actually did go into intending to hate. Yet, you wrote Puissance so well that it one me over and actually managed to inspire me out of a slump. So please understand, this isn't just because of some personal grudge I have against you. I know I can be harshly critical of you at times, but at your best I actually really do like your work. JULP though is far from you best work, and I think that's because you were so focused on writing it quickly (not to mention keeping the whole process to your self as a "secret" project) that it fails for lack of external input. Keep in mind that the original proposals for both SfM&S as well as Foalish Misadventures didn't go over quite so well either, but after brainstorming they became some of the better fics in the setting.

Why not? She got an ambiguous mark (a parchment and quill),

All cutie marks are ambiguous, or at least abstract. That's why two ponies can have the exact same talent but different marks, or similar marks but wildly different talents --HOWEVER-- they are never ambiguous to the pony that earns them, because their shape and form is a reflection of that pony's psychology view of both the world and their own place in it. More to the point though, because they are something earned through an epiphany of self-discovery there is just no way for a pony to be wholly ignorant of what it is that was making them happy at the moment the mark was earned and thus to understand what the image that manifests means to them.

Again, it's fine for an adult pony due to traumatic experiences to question and doubt the validity of their mark, or even to go through something as mundane a mid-life crisis or some such as it were. But no pony should every have such doubts from the very outset, because otherwise they clearly couldn't yet have gone through the requisite epiphany through which their mark would be earned in the first place.

3249682

Please, I'm tiered of fighting with you. Everytime I do my love of the Lunaverse dies a little more and I wonder why I even bother still trying to contribute at all. One thing, all I want is just this ONE thing and then you can have EVERYTHING else in JULP no matter how stupid, contrived, or outright boring I think it is. Is that really too much to ask?

Dude, you've been trying to remove my influence from the Lunaverse for over a year. You've objected to virtually every idea or story I've proposed or supported since Carrot Top Season. You flipped out over After the Night, you didn't want me to write Exam Jitters, you insisted that the Night Vision stories not be added to the side stories list, you told me you were going to try and get Old Friends thrown out of canon, you hated the very idea of SoS, and you shoot down every single thing I propose or support in any of the threads, no matter how small or innocuous. I can't recall a single thing of mine you were okay with since Season 1, except maybe Concert for Ponyville. And it's not just me; you never compromise on ideas other people propose too (except maybe for RDD), even on things as little as whether or not sheep can talk like Zap wanted or whether or not Wallflower can talk like Talon wants, both of which you refused to listen to anyone and insisted things be done your way or not at all about.

I've been trying to compromise with you for over a year, and every time I try you tell me it's not enough, that the only solution is to further get rid of my stories and ideas. I've realized there's no point.

I can accept criticism. I can accept the ruling that SoS not be canon, because people raised good points as to why that would cause problems. I'm fine with making the changes RDD listed above, because looking at them, I can see his point and I can see where there might be some issues in the story. In retrospect, for instance, Luna being nicer to GG at the end probably does work better than her still hating him. But you refuse to compromise on anything, as if the Lunaverse were a personal commission made specially for you... and you in particular refuse to accept anything I do, because of this bizarre animus you've had towards me ever since Carrot Top Season. Every time I write something different than what you wish me to write, you treat it like a personal betrayal. For crying out loud, just above you wrote you went into Ice Hearts "intending to hate it". You flipped out when, at the end of Foalish Misadventures, I had Zecora escape on the train rather than escape from Apple Bloom, because you wanted it the other way and couldn't accept the way I wrote it--even on something as little as that. I can't work with that.

I don't want to fight with you. That's why I've held off on making a post like this for over a year; I wanted to try to push past it and find some way for us to work together, for the sake of the Lunaverse if nothing else. That's why I have compromised, again and again, for over a year. But you've made it clear that the only alternative to these fights is to always give in to you, which in practice means withdrawing all my ideas and not contributing to the Lunaverse at all. And I'm not willing to do that. You've given no real reason for why Twilight should be removed from the story besides that you personally don't want her there, and that isn't enough for me to change that.

3249745

You flipped out over After the Night,

I wasn't the only one.

Besides, that fic would never have even been an issue if you hadn't been the one who "flip out" about the whole Blueblood thing in the first place. Multiple people tried to explain that scene from AtGGG to you, but you are the one who kept insisting that there was ONLY one way to interpret it and that the only way to fix it was for her friends and teacher to chew-out and ostracize Trixie until she made amends with a sleazy slime ball who deserved to get conned and who would have gleefully blackmailed her if she had beaten him to the punch. You are the one who pressed and pressed that issue, month after month, until RDD was forced to violate his own authorial integrity by amputating the scene just to finally shut you up. So don't you dare try to accuse me of being the only one who can't compromise.

you didn't want me to write Exam Jitters,

And yet when you did anyway, I lodged no further complaint.

you insisted that the Night Vision stories not be added to the side stories list,

Actually, I initially professed indifference. I saw no need to add them to canon, but no real reason not to either. It was RDD who specifically identified himself as the supposed "bad guy" and said he didn't want them in canon. Fizzy had already abstained, but it was indeterminate if you intended to follow suit, and seeing as I was already indifferent, I felt it best to simply avoid any further arguments and support RDD (you know, seeing as he's the ENTIRE reason any of us are here in the first place).

you told me you were going to try and get Old Friends thrown out of canon,

And yet I also specifically told you that wasn't a proposal I'd ever make lightly. There are plenty of fics I don't personally care for, but I know this setting doesn't exist only to cater to my whims and so leave them be for others to enjoy. OF was pretty much the first time I felt so strongly that a fic was just outright broken with no redeeming value to make up for it (even CTS has parts I really like and think are worth keeping). Regardless, I only said I wanted to motion for its canonicity to be reconsidered, which would still have required Fizzy and RDD to agree with me. So unless you had reason to doubt the quality of your own work, should you really have had any cause to tell me I wasn't allowed to even bring the subject up?

you hated the very idea of SoS,

Again, I wasn't the only one.

And it's not just me; you never compromise on ideas other people propose too (except maybe for RDD), even on things as little as whether or not sheep can talk like Zap wanted

I didn't want goats to talk either, but I a compromised there. Also, RDD has himself agreed that it's best not to broach the issue of sentient sheep. And it's not like Zap seemed offended by the decision, instead he even spun it into an in-story gag.

or whether or not Wallflower can talk like Talon wants, both of which you refused to listen to anyone and insisted things be done your way or not at all about.

Technically Wallflower was originally Fizzy's character, and he's the one who decided she should be an off-screen "ghost". I've just been trying to keep that original idea intact. Even at that I offered a compromise by suggesting T&T instead use the wife he envisioned for Wallflower to be the onscreen presence for the scenes he had planed, and last I checked T&T was willing to work with that idea.

You also seem to be ignoring or more likely just unaware of many other things I've compromised on. Partly that's because of how I tend "compromise" in the first place. That is to say, when I truly decide to comprise I usually do so before raising any argument at all. I do so specifically because I want it to be clear that when I do go to the effort of voicing a contrary opinion that it is something I'm decidedly passionate about. I'd like to think it's that restrain in being judicious in what I object to that results in me usually "winning"

Admittedly being stubborn helps to, but I don't think. But I doubt I'd ever have become one of the most respected and influential members of this community if that was the only thing I had going for me.

...

I don't want to fight with you. That's why I've held off on making a post like this for over a year; I wanted to try to push past it and find some way for us to work together,

You don't think I haven't been trying the SAME. You don't think I haven't wanted just as badly to vent and rage against you. Trust me, for all you think I've been persecuting you in the past, I've actually been holding back the brunt of what I find objectionable in you and your entire approach to the Lunaverse. If you aren't going to hold back any longer though, I see no reason why I should either, no reason not to finally force the issue and see the Lunaverse finally rid of one or the other of us since clearly further coexistence is impossible.

...and yet, if only as courtesy to RDD who never wanted to choose between us, who has bent over backwards trying to keep us both happy, I'm going to restrain myself one --and ONLY ONE-- last time.

which in practice means withdrawing all my ideas and not contributing to the Lunaverse at all. And I'm not willing to do that.

And that's our biggest problem, except you seem to have failed to consider the part where I feel exactly the same way about you. That the only way to avoid further fighting would be for me to quit entirely. Maybe you never intended to make me feel that way, but that's never the less what you've done. And so just the same as you shouldn't have to quit to make me happy, I shouldn't have to quit either. Which means that you and I, we absolutely MUST find some way to work together, because all this constant bickering isn't doing ANYONE any good.

You've given no real reason for why Twilight should be removed from the story besides that you personally don't want her there, and that isn't enough for me to change that.

I pointed out that she's already been through enough bad experiences in S1, and that she really deserves to get some time off and settle down into her new life before we put her through anymore trauma. I'm not opposed to her being featured in S2 fics, so long as they stick to slice-of-life antics in Ponyville (like Magic Tutor), but she's not part of our main cast and shouldn't be relied upon as the crux of any adventure based plots like JULP.

Plus again, even if it was a slightly different outline, you did still tell me you wouldn't press the issue of ponies trying to take revenge on Twilight. Even if villains of JULP aren't singling her out alone, you're still use her being targeted as the impetuous for getting the L6 involved. If you think she needs to be mentioned in the plot, fine, have her be on the badguys' list. Keep the scene in Poinyville about her preparing for the trip which ultimately turns out to be an setup, but have it be something a few days away, something that because Cheerilee and Raindrops stop the villains now Twilight never has to go through. That should keep the whole audience investment that you think you need to abuse Twilight for, without it ever actually needing to happen.

Again, please, this is the one and ONLY thing I'm asking for in regards to this fic. I'm willing not just to compromise on the rest, but to just plain let you have EVERYTHING else in this fic. I still utterly hate what your doing with Greengrass, but I can let him go though -- I loved him while he lasted, but I can let him go. Twilight though, she still matters to me, will always matter to me. So please, do me this one favor.

3247111 Okay I'm only up to Chapter 3 for now, I'll try to read three more chapters tomorow. Some of my nitpicks and general problems were outlined in the specific chapters.

In a nutshell I feel this story shows the rushed production schedule you subjected yourself to while writing this story. It feels unpolished and could really really benefit from some further editing. Specifically there's a lot of 'fat' that needs to be trimmed and there's many scenes, ESPECIALLY the one at the insectarium, where it sounds like you are talking AT the audiance rather than having characters engage in meaningful conversation. I feel deeply we should avoid putting Twilight in too important a role, she's a canon character, and a popular one to boot, and I think she tends to overshadow our characters too much. I did like her talking about flower fractals and other friends she made in Ponyville.

I'm not a big fan of Raindrops' attitude, plus I think that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are a bit too overplayed here. In fact I think you could cut the entire exchange in Ponyville, have Raindrops bring Snails to the Insectarium for some unrelated reasons, and it would still work perfectly. I just have trouble understanding their motives here.

As of this writing I am not comfortable adding this story to canon until some of that editting is done. I can't comment on the plot itself just yet because it's only really just started.

We'll see what the future chapters bring though.

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...I'm not even sure if I want to get involved this time or if I'd rather you two just finally had it out.

3250211 :

Other people agreeing with you on any one specific issue doesn't take away from the fact that you oppose me on everything and are completely and utterly incapable of compromise. The thing with Apple Bloom is a perfect example. I had Zecora escape from the Guards in Foalish Misadventures, not AB, mostly because I didn't want there to be later arguments that AB was somehow responsible for future bad things Zecora did while serving Corona. You flipped out and demanded that Zecora be allowed to escape from AB for no reason. You had no argument as to why that was preferable in terms of how it would affect the Lunaverse. You just hated that I did something that didn't match with what you wanted, and you threw a fit in the comments in my story. You have hated every single story I wrote for S2 except for one, and didn't want me to write any of them. Same with sheep (and, incidentally, RDD only said that sheep were problematic after you threw a fit about it. You are why sheep are problematic. Note that nobody had any problems when the Quartet was introduced in Up And Automaton.) Same with Wallflower.

(And, about that: I went back through the Night Court thread. Fizzy named the character, said she was 'nice', 'didn't make waves', and 'nopony's quite sure how she got there.' He hardly proposed the idea that she be some kind of cypher. I came up with some ideas for her personality which fit that description, Fizzy and I talked about it (which was when the 'she never speaks or does anything' bit came up), and we eventually compromised that she be allowed to speak, though she might look fairly unremarkable. You were the one who insisted that she be made a cypher, even when Talon & Thorn has ideas for actually using her to contribute to the verse.)

Again, you specifically said above that you went into Ice Hearts "intending to hate" it. Even after everything you've said and done to push me out, I still go into your stories with an open mind. I still help you with brainstorming and other details you ask for (re: Puissance, for instance). But you apparently start anything I do with the presumption that it must be horrible, and surprise surprise, you tend to come out of my stories arguing that they suck and they should be excluded from canon. You've let your irrational hatred of me color everything you do or say when it comes to the content I propose for the Lunaverse, and believe me, it shows.

You treat the Lunaverse like it's your own private commission, and you flip out whenever anyone does anything that deviates from what you want. When you like the way something is, you refuse to let anyone have that element change or grow in a future story, even though it stifles the Lunaverse. GG and Notary are a perfect example. They can't be used as they were in S1 because we aren't doing NIght Court stories and because that arc is over. I came up with a way to use them to further build the verse, add some depth to the characters, and allow for more stories. You say you hate it... but you have never come up with a better plan for them. It seems like you'd rather they remain just as they were at the end of AtGGG, despite the fact that as they were, they couldn't be used for anything. You'd rather have no story told than a story that deviates from your headcanon that GG and Notary remain bastards forever. Same with Twilight here. You don't want me using her to tell a story, but you don't have a better story to tell; you just don't want any story told that conflicts with your image of how the Lunaverse is. And same with Wallflower; you have never come up with any story ideas that require or even use cypher-Wallflower, despite your posts in that thread being over a year old, but you leap to tear down any story that does use her in a different manner. Because you still don't understand that a shared universe needs to work for all its writers, not just you, and if you're using your power to cut off stories and inhibit the verse just so that it fits your exact ideas for how the Lunaverse should be, you're doing it wrong.

You also seem to be ignoring or more likely just unaware of many other things I've compromised on. Partly that's because of how I tend "compromise" in the first place. That is to say, when I truly decide to comprise I usually do so before raising any argument at all. I do so specifically because I want it to be clear that when I do go to the effort of voicing a contrary opinion that it is something I'm decidedly passionate about. I'd like to think it's that restrain in being judicious in what I object to that results in me usually "winning"

I literally cannot recall the last time you disagreed with me but eventually backed down. I am always the one to back down. Well, that's done. I'm not letting you push me out anymore. It's clear that your opinion on my stories and ideas is hopelessly biased. Why should I change myself to please someone who refuses to be pleased?

You don't think I haven't been trying the SAME. You don't think I haven't wanted just as badly to vent and rage against you. Trust me, for all you think I've been persecuting you in the past, I've actually been holding back the brunt of what I find objectionable in you and your entire approach to the Lunaverse.

My approach is to tell good stories and to help others do the same. To expand the characters and give them depth so future storytellers have a lot to build off of. To only object to ideas and stories that are detrimental to future stories--by introducing elements that would complicate things later {like ghosts or mind-bullets}, by messing up continuity so as to confuse future readers and writers, by being poorly written to the point where they would point people away from the verse--and even then to compromise and try to find a mutually agreeable solution.

There is nothing objectionable about that, unless you think the Lunaverse should be kept constant and only changed according to your own specific ideas. No, I'm not writing my stories as if you were my only reader. I don't intend to.

Which means that you and I, we absolutely MUST find some way to work together, because all this constant bickering isn't doing ANYONE any good.

No, Emeral, we don't have to do anything. You have to change. I've done all I can. I've compromised time and again, it got nowhere. You are the one who reflexively shoots down everything I propose; I don't do the same to you. You are the one who tries to stifle new stories, not me. Until you drop this animus towards me, accept that my ideas are as legitimate as yours, and accept that your role as a community leader should be to facilitate the growth of the community and not to bend it to your whim, there's nothing I can do.

I pointed out that she's already been through enough bad experiences in S1, and that she really deserves to get some time off and settle down into her new life before we put her through anymore trauma. I'm not opposed to her being featured in S2 fics, so long as they stick to slice-of-life antics in Ponyville (like Magic Tutor), but she's not part of our main cast and shouldn't be relied upon as the crux of any adventure based plots like JULP.

So what would you do with Twilight instead? You still haven't answered this, besides 'nothing, she might as well be shut up in a box whenever an adventure plot happens.' You hate everything I do, but never because you have a better idea. If you had a better plan for Twilight in this part of the timeline, a story specifically requiring her to stay home and out of the way, that would be one thing. That would be something I could look at and maybe we could work out a compromise. Instead, you'd just rather we not use her. But that isn't how shared universes work. We need to be able to tell stories.

Plus again, even if it was a slightly different outline, you did still tell me you wouldn't press the issue of ponies trying to take revenge on Twilight. Even if villains of JULP aren't singling her out alone, you're still use her being targeted as the impetuous for getting the L6 involved. If you think she needs to be mentioned in the plot, fine, have her be on the badguys' list. Keep the scene in Poinyville about her preparing for the trip which ultimately turns out to be an setup, but have it be something a few days away, something that because Cheerilee and Raindrops stop the villains now Twilight never has to go through. That should keep the whole audience investment that you think you need to abuse Twilight for, without it ever actually needing to happen.

Then there's no tension. If the L3 have multiple days to solve the problem, then there's no real way the authorities would be useless for that long. Luna being out of town for a day was about the most I felt I could plausibly do. With more time, she would return, rein in Fisher, and solve the problem.

And again--this adds nothing to the story. It just makes the stakes smaller.

Again, please, this is the one and ONLY thing I'm asking for in regards to this fic. I'm willing not just to compromise on the rest, but to just plain let you have EVERYTHING else in this fic. I still utterly hate what your doing with Greengrass, but I can let him go though -- I loved him while he lasted, but I can let him go. Twilight though, she still matters to me, will always matter to me. So please, do me this one favor.

No. I am not twisting the story just because you don't want to see Twilight adventure tales this season. Just like I'm not twisting it because you want GG to remain a villain with Notary by his side, even though we can't really do stories like that anymore.

3252064
Actually, I've always found sheep to be awkward due to the whole "you could have asked" scene. Even if Emeral pointed it out first, that only means that he got to the conversation first.

Similarly, I didn't even know about Wallflower until after the whole controversy around her began. My thought process? "Well, we're not really focusing on the Night Court anymore post-AtGGG, so I don't see a reason to add a whole new character. If we're gonna do so, we should keep her role small."

I can form my own opinions, you know...

but you have never come up with a better plan for them

Grass I've pointed this out before. Sometimes, stories end. Character arcs end. We don't have to find a new use for every single character and their dog after their arc ends, and this especailly applies to villains. Try to remember that Greengrass only ever became important because he usurped a role that was already being built up for Blueblood already.

Note that in my post up there one of the things I said is that I'm okay with Greengrass in this story if it's his conclusion. I admit I didn't do a good job ending Greengrass specifically in AtGGG due to fatigue from writing the story, so I went into this realizing that Greengrass is your character that you invested a lot into and you'd like to see him get some kind of proper conclusion.

But arcs end, Grass. That's something that you have to learn to accept.

3252064
I have an irrational hatred? Hatred maybe, but there is nothing irrational about it. I never just woke up one random morning and decided to hate you. It's something that grew and festered over time and due to multiple influential factors. And that's part of the twin fold problem of why it's difficult for me to even begin trying to explain it to you, because there's no one thing a I can point at and say, "That's the reason!" More to the point though, I'm not even sure there would be any purpose in me even trying explaining it all to you.

You've made it abundantly that you no longer have any interest in listening to me, no interest in even contemplating the legitimacy of my grievances, nor in finding a common ground of mutual compromise. Admittedly, I really do only have myself to blame for things finally reaching this boiling point. My issues against you might not be irrational, but I've been woefully negligent in how I've expressed those concerns, and as result there's clearly nothing I could do anymore to change your mind on this, no matter what I said. I could write for miles and miles, and you wouldn't care, so there's no point in me wasting the effort on you.

The only reason for me to defend myself here and now would be as an appeal to the other Quorum members, but it wouldn't be words they haven't already heard. See, the thing is that these are all issues I've long discussed privately with Fizzy, with IAH, even with RDD. They all already understand my opinions and view points, and I hope that I can trust they have only ever been equally honest with me in return, that I've not been building my own faith in them on a lie they propagated just to keep me happy.

I shouldn't have to impose on anyone else to fight my battles for me, but what other choice do I really have in this situation anymore. Give up? Let you win unchallenged? You don't have any idea how many times I've let that happen in the past. I'm through rolling over just to appease, just because offending you might irreparably fracture the Lunaverse. I don't really want to see that happen, I don't want everything that all of us have strived to build come crumbling down, but what kind universe do we really have if we as it's leaders aren't communicating openly and honestly with each other.

3251629
RDD, I won't ask you to do this. You've already decided to play neutral here, and I can't fault you for that since whatever happens you'll be the one stuck cleaning up the mess. I know words can't ever make up for such, but I really am sorry. It might ring hollow by now, but I still mean it when I say you deserve better than to babysit a pair of squabbling authors that can't resolve their own differences. You gave us all something beautiful, and we repaid you by turning it into a battlefield of strife and contention.

3248583
I won't ask you to do it either, IAH, because I know you'd never be comfortable being put on the spot like that. Besides, I'm not sure G&C would really listen to you either, as I think he still views you as something of an outsider.

That leaves only...

3251317
I hate to impose upon you, Fizzy, but more so than any one else, you and I have shared many words in private on this subject. You are the person I trust more than any other to understand and represent my feelings and concerns in this matter -- maybe you can make G&C listen were I no longer can.

This might not be a fair request. I'm not sure anyone can resolve this situation, or that a resolution even exists. You are the only one that I can even ask to try though, and so I put my fate purely into your hands. If, however, you feel this is not a battle worth fighting... well, I will understand and quietly acquiesce without any further complaints.

3252595
Let's just have Fizzy reach his own decision without asking him to do it "for" anyone.

3253431
I wasn't really asking him in regards to this specific story. This argument has degenerated way past that and into persoanl attacks over much longer standing issues. Still, even as such, I'm not trying to presure anyone into specificaly taking my side. If Fizzy won't or can't speak on my behalf, or instead comes down against me, than that will simply be the end of it all. If even he thinks I've been in the wrong this whole time then I'll have no choice but to take it to heart.

...or you could just head all that off and make your own judgement call. I don't want to be coddled and so if I really have steped out of line then I deserve to be reprimanded. One way or the other though, this feud between me and G&C has to stop.

3252595
3253431
3252064 Let me first finish to read the story in debate here. That in itself will take some time. Then I will properly read this thread and see what is being said and will weight in on the situaion. I find it hard to believe there isn't some way to get through this.

On the matter of Greengrass, I will say this though: I feel like his final downfall should not be handled simply in a flashback in this story here, but should be its own story so that this one isn't weighted down by a narrative that is only tengentely related.

3254085
And I accept this. Though I'm not necessarily interested in "downfall" as much as "conclusion."

3254085,
3254093 : Okay. I can accept that.

3247111
3248177
3247235
Okay, done reading. Here is my verdict on the story.

I enjoyed it. It was tense, it had a good of action pieces and had a satisfying enough conclusion. I was even wary of letting you put Twilight in the middle of an adventure but I think you handled her quite well.

That being said... I still have issues.

There's a few issues with editing, I've outline a few places in specific chapters where I think rewording for clarity would help (Max's visit to Fetlockson's apartment segue into a flashback in a confusing manner and the library scene needs better description), there's also a few pronouns problem here or there.

I find the pacing uneven. I think that the extended flashbacks to Greengrass' dealing with the Sun Cult should be spun off into their own story and cut down in this one for brevity. I also think the first exchange between our bullying duo and Snails is unnecessary padding. I don't think the story needs to start with that at all, and that Raindrops should just be taking her brother to see the insectarium because it's new. Maybe she could mention how DT and Spoon have been a bit harsh with Snails recently, but I think their big bullying moment at the Insectarium is enough for your purpose. Like Emeral pointed out, it reflects poorly on Cheerilee if EVERYPONY knows how bad they are and nothing's been done to change them.

Speaking of insectarium I think you should ditch the play. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the story except get Carrot Top talking about her boring status. Furthermore a play about the Elements is too fun a concept to be squandered on a random background detail. The farm expo is good eough reason for Carrot Top to show up.

I don't like the scene of Fisher ordering Shining Armor around like that. It should be made clear that the legislative branch of the government doesn't have power over the military branch like that. Maybe at least bring up the fact that interior security and policing work fall under the civilian jurisdiction. I dunno...the guard is kind of a weird thing. Fisher certainly can't order the Night Guards around that's for certain. I also think that Luna being away from Canterlot should come up sooner. It's not really believeable that the Captain of the Guard doesn't know about her absence. Plus Luna sleeps during the day.

I'll repeat it here: SOMEPONY needs to be surprised by Monty's post on the Canterlot Security thing (which should be a commity, not a ministry). I still say Vicereine Wallflower showing up at the begining was not a good idea, especially with Fisher ordering her around like that. It feels like you just got her there to spite Emeral's position about keeping Wallflower silent. I don't think this is the fic OR the situation to make a point about that.

The visit to the boot factory had way too much Fisher propaganda. I don't think Raindrops would care to listen to their prattling on, and having that scene lag on further once they've established a suspect is pointless. We don't need to be told how AWESOME Fisher is. It should really be more subtle.

The last chapter is a bit too long as well. While I like the stinger with Volk I think it would be better served as a webisode attached to the story, as it's not 100% necessary to the main plot, even if we never find out who is the mysterious third vigilante. You could even expend the exchange to add the 'What do you love?' line if you want to have the changeling thing more heavy handed.

I also have issues that echo some of RDD's own issue with the story. I find some of the dialogue on the part of our protagonists stilted and with vocabulary not quite matching them (especially Snails). Carrot Top is too downright peppy about her role and I think you've made her way too simple. The scene at the insectarium was downright PAINFUL and need a complete overhault. Seriously dude, you can do better than that.

Raindrops' anger becomes a lot more believeable as the story progress and I stopped being annoyed by it, but I think you start her off too strong. It should be a more graduate thing.

To echoe's IAH general criticism of season 2: "stop explainign things!". I think Cheerilee's past shouldn't be so well defined and you should leave more vagueness, otherwise she loses some of her charm and start looking more and more like a downright criminal.

Greengrass works well here but I agree with RDD that it's time to let go. He's served his narrative purpose and he has come to the end of his arc. He should be allowed to head back to Caneighda and be out of our hair. Sometimes characters are no longer useful and they dissapear. It happens. You don't see me chomping at the bits to get Zizanie out of jail. I'm perfectly content with her being forgotten.

I'm also not a big fan of the ice cream amulet being used to essentially cheat. In a heavy story about criminal and justice it feels a bit out of place. I do LOVE the hercules beetle though.

So if you can satisfyingly adess my concerns I will be willing to accept this fic as canon. Thus my answer is YES, BUT...

Now, that being said, I do have a point I'd like to rise that's only partially related to JULP. I am fin with Twilight's role in this story, HOWEVER I want us to make it very clear to other authors that putting her in the line of danger like this should be a RARE EXCEPTION and the only reason I'm not bothered by it is that this story is set late into the season's timeline. wilight can get involved in shenanigans in Ponyville, but she shouldn't be constantly be moved around the country and getting involved. She's not one of our hero, let's not forget that.

Now to read the rest of this thread...

3247111 Oh and I forgot to mention! While I like the fight at the train station, Volk in that scene is WAY too overpowered. Manipulating multiple trains that are clearly out of his line of sight AND sending bolts at Raindrops? That's just too much multi tasking for a unicorn without 'magic' as a cutie mark. I think it would be more believable if he had only one train under his control but used the track control to making it move around the station effectively. Also you forgot that Changelings have green shimmering magic if you want to keep that angle.

It would also allow you to have a part where Cheerilee tricks Goliath into destroying the track just as the train heads her way, causing it to derail and depriving Volk of his weapon! It'd be pretty awesome!

3256381

I also think the first exchange between our bullying duo and Snails is unnecessary padding. I don't think the story needs to start with that at all, and that Raindrops should just be taking her brother to see the insectarium because it's new.

If I may briefly be so bold, I have an additional suggestion to add to this. Instead of just randomly running into DT & SS at the insectarium, it might be worth considering just making this all start with a school field trip. That would also give Cheerilee an overall better reason to be visiting Canterlot at the exact same time as Raindrops, who can herself just be along as an additional chaperone.

Admittedly, having all the other foals around would really distract from the rest of the story once the action starts. Cheerilee can't really do her hero thing if she has to be responsible for safeguarding all her students at the same time, but there's already an easy work around. Obviously after Snails runs away Raindrops is desperate to find him, and Cheerillee as a friend can choose to prioritize that while allowing any remaining chaperones to look after the rest of the students (who can all depart by train before the city goes on lockdown).

3256494 Honestly I think it would just weight down the story to have that many characters around. Plus people would expect the other foals to get into shenanigans since G&C is writing and would be dissapointed when it doesn't happen

3257156
I'm not suggesting the other foals really be around as anything other than window dressing, to establish why the Ponyville cast is even in Canterlot in the first place, and so none of the other foals ever need to do anything of noteworthy importance. Mostly it just really cuts down on the number of coincidences that all ram up against each other just to make this story play out the way it does.

To illustrate my point we have currently have 1) Snails is depressed and Raindrops decided to take him to a new insect museum to cheer him up. 2) Cheerillee just so happens to already have been planning her own separate trip to Canterlot at this same time to visit an old friend. 3) Furthermore there also happens to be a farming convention that Carrot Top wants to attend, but strangely no other Ponyville farmer worth mentioning. 4) This also happens to be the exact same day this vigilante justice squad happens to lure Twilight into violating her parole. 5) DT & SS are also visiting Canterlot as well on this exact same day, are the reason Snails was even depressed to begin with, and visiting the exact same museum no less. 6) Of all the places Snails could run off to he just happens to find himself with Greengrass, who despite having long since lost his seat and title is still in Canterlot. 7) This is also the exact same day that Max in an entirely unrelated sequence of events, involving a random patron at a teahouse, becomes aware of the disappearing ponies.

Now I'm perfectly fine with coincidences; narrative fiction tends to be rife with such things, but even excluding CT (as G&C is planning to cut her) that's still 6 different events all happening conveniently in proximity to each other. If instead Cheerilee, Raindrops, Snails, DT & SS were all in Canterlot for the same reason of a school field trip, that would cut the number of coincidences down to a much more manageably believable 4.

Personally, I think it could do to cut down one more level of coincidence by having Max not become involved in events outside his normal government duties until after crossing paths with Raindrops and Cheerilee, but I'm not really overly concerned about that and can just ignore it.

3257260 I hadn't considered the coincidences... but well Raindrops planned her trip at the same time as Cheerilee because she wanted the company, we could assume the same for Cheerilee and CT.

I guess CT could be going to a showcase of new farm equipment as the Farmer Union's representative. Applejack doesn't need to go since the Trust probably has folks who do that sort of thing.

3257288
...and the bullying duo?

3257353 They're there for the opening of the Insectarium because it's an event with lots of high society big wigs who want to show their support for education? So Sterling Silver and Filthy Rich went to mingle? Like explained in the fic, though I think making it clearer it's a special day at the insectarium would smooth that over.

3257391
Honestly I think if it's such a specially day, that only makes it all the more reasonable for it to be a field trip thing, but I'm willing to concede might just be my own personal preference.

Still, now instead we'd have the coincidence that the insectarium's grand opening and an unrelated farmer's conventions are both happening on the exact same day. Though admittedly as mentioned previously, G&C is planning to cut CT -- though I still really wish he'd cut Twilight instead. On top of all my other reasons, it's still an awfully big coincidence that she'd be lured into a trap on the exact same day Cheerilee and Raindrops are visiting Canterlot for completely unrelated reasons, which is also the exact same day Max accidentally stumbles upon the same conspiracy entirely on his own.

Not to mention that Twilight is no ordinary ex-con. Her parents are viceroys and her brother captain of the royal guard, all of which puts them in a prime position to know if she was really up for such time off for good behavior. While their own ignorance of events is excusable, surely Twilight herself would expect that one of them would have contacted her personally with the good knews, and given how paranoid she can be either get suspicious or depressed if it happened otherwise (you know, much the same way as on the show how she got upset about not finding out about her brother's marriage until an official invitation mere days before hand).

Still, I digress. I really, really don't like Twilight's involvement in this particular story, and nothing will likely ever change such. However, as I said earlier, if that's only my opinion, if both you and RDD are fine with it, then there really isn't an argument to be had.

3257423 It's easier to suspend disbelief when it comes to crazy coincidences. It's not like the canon show isn't filled with them. I think we should focus our efforts more on making sure everyone stays in character.

3257475
Fine, if it's a matter of keeping the cast in character, then at the very least Twilight needs to be a more involved and active participant in driving events. She shouldn't just be the hapless damsel who's only here for the L6 to save. She can't be as she is in at least one scene practically cowering in the corner while curled up into a fetal position, rocking back and forth while chanting about how she only wanted to see her family. This is Twilight "No more running, no more hiding" Sparkle, and after all she's been through, now that she's finally getting her life back on track only for vigilantes to come and try making some kind of example out of her, magic or no, there should be more righteous indignation and a desire for some serious payback.

Also to be perfectly honest, the library scene could probably be dialed back a bit. Yes, Twilight is supposed to be in Ponyville to make friends, and I'm happy to see that she's succeeding, but at the same time she really is still supposed to be something of a reclusive bookworm. Even on the show she's never been that peppy about making new friends beyond her core five. I'm not saying the subject can't come up, but should it really be at the forefront of her thoughts while packing for the trip.

Also, instead of panicking over random stuff like weather, in a world where such things are controlled and scheduled. Her concern should probably be about none of her family being the ones to have given the good news in person (which also works as better foreshadowing that it's all a trap). Her worry should be that they might be ashamed of her, and that's where any mention of friends she's made in Ponyville should come up, as Cheerilee speaks of them to help illustrate how Twilight has been doing good on her reform and thus making her family proud.

3252064
3252595

Allright so I've read through your little argument up there. It really escalated quickly. I'd rather not pick up a side in the general argument between you two, but in this instance it feels like Grass is the one who kick it up a notch here, but I won't hold it up against you. This is just another in a long line of clashes.

Now let us all take a moment to breath calmly and make sure we realize one thing: We are talking about fanfictions here. None of us are getting paid. We all write because we have a PASSION for those technicolor diminituve equines and we found ourself a universe to share and play with here. Because of that our stories are VERY close to our hearts, they are one with our passions, so it's a little hard to really distance ourselves from criticism.

Grass you are nothing if not passionate and I fear that Emeral, and possibly me to a certain extant, have not been mindful of that deep passion. I apologize.

But it's important for all of us, those involved in this argument, those spectating on this spat, IAH, RDD and me, to agree on this: We should not take criticism aimed at our stories personally.

I know it's not easy and that frictions have run high in the past, created tension and rifts. If we can all decide on that principle, to keep any argument related to each and every individual story as it come up, I think we can avoid too much unpleasentness. Each story must be judged on its own without being tinted by the author's previous work. It's gonna be hard but I think we can do it. Yes this might mean that, sometimes, ideas and stories put forth by a specific author might all be shot down, but I don't think you should see it as a personnal attack. At least I'd like to think it's not. I want to apologize to anyone if I have in anyway make them feel singled out simply because I disagreed with their story ideas.

Now before going further I want to make something clear: Emeral and I, and I believe RDD as well, we share many views when it come to the tone and theme of stories appropriate to the Lunaverse canon. Those views I'm affraid don't always line up perfectly with everyone, and I think it's nowhere near as evident as it is when it comes to your stories Grass. Remember that we ALL shot down Siege of Stalliongrad, but yet when you wrote it you were certain it would make canon. However, even if I agree with Emeral on a lot of issues it doesn't make me his underling, mook, toady, ally, or automatically always in agreement with him, and I'm sorry if I potentially made you feel that way in the past.

Grass, I don't agree with all of Emeral's criticism regarding Just Us Little Ponies. I've pointed out my issues with your stories, and some of them are shared with Emeral. I think Emeral however has some legitimate concern, for exemple I can see how all the coincidencec would trouble him. I know you had issues in the past but please try to view his comments as if they came from someone else and not let the past color your opinion.

Now in the interest of fairness I'd like to take a moment and criticise Emeral: Be more open. I don't think you do anyone any good by simply clamping down when you don't like something. Even if it's not something you're willing to fight for, maybe expressing your opinion in the form of an alternative will spark another idea in the writer that might not only satisfy you but make the story better. Just make sure you state that you don't mind if it stays the way it is. I think it would make it clear you're not always just targeting the same authors with your criticism.

You also need to accept that, due to the nature of our team of writers, not every story will line up perfectly well tone wise. Or even when it comes to characterisation! So let's not focus on perfection and just be content to ballpark it okay? And don't hold grudges for too long.

Now Grass, if there is one big thing you should take away from this situation, in addition to my mention above to stop taking things so personally, is to accept that stories can END.

This is not the Star Wars Expended Universe where every patron of the Cantina has a name, action figure and full novel dedicated to them! We don't need to use every character all the time. Sometimes characters dissapear from stories.

Just because we don't have an idea to use Wallflower or Notary doesn't make it necessarely a good idea to use them for whatever purpose suddenly strike our fancy. In fact I feel we already have way too many secondary characters in Canterlot Nobility as it is, and we should endeavour to use those we have before we develop new ones all the time. We shouldn't unnaturally extend the life of a character just because we can't bare to not use them! When it comes to Wallflower I kinda like the idea that she's never shown, however I have no specific objection to her having a few lines and yet I don't think she should take center stage for a while.

Also please try not to do more of those secret projects. Maybe you and Emeral could have worked out a way to use Twilight in a way that satisfy Emeral while still retaining your original intent WITHOUT this option meaning a complete rewrite. I'd feel TERRIBLE having to ask you to rewrite a whole story to accept it into canon.

I hope this long rambling post will help you guys deal with all this.

The point I'm trying to make here is that whatever issue any of us have with a specific story, should remain with that specific story. No hard feeling carried forward, no preconcieve notions about future stories.

Now, since you guys brought up Old Friends... I'm sorry Grass but I have to side with Emeral on the cutie mark thing. It just doesn't work for me that she doesn't understand her own mark.

I still don't like that you define so much of Cheerilee's past, or make her actually panic when her optimism usually keeps her level-headed, that this past relationship comes out of nowhere and that the foals are basically devil spawn ruining Cheerilee's life. I'm perfectly willing to overlook some of my concerns for the sake of some good slapstick but not the cutie mark thing. Plus Notary's angst about her cutie mark doesn't actually impact the plot of the story so I find it entirely superfluous woobification.

3257535 Aaah see now those are good points!

I do like the thing about flower fractal so thath as to stay there. I personally love the subtle foreshadowing with her family not telling her the good news themselves. That's good one too! It's a very believable concern for Twilight who was affraid of her family's reaction when they first saw her in jail.

I think Twilight can be excused in the train station fight since she was probably feeling helpless without her magic at first. I do think she could have a little bit more poised and that Greengrass should be surprised by it. It would be good to see her more righteous by the time the mob ponies show up though.

3257559

It would be good to see her more righteous by the time the mob ponies show up though.

I'm pretty sure that's actually the scene I was referring to, and that really made me just checkout entirely. It's hard for me to really remember for sure though since everything past Ch3 starts blurring together. And at least part of the problem is that it just takes so long for the story to ever get anywhere. Scenes tend either repeated (as mentioned with DT&SS), drag on longer than they need to make a point, or even just plain come crawling to a stop so that the plot can be explained though dry exposition. I feel like this story could have been twice as good at only half the length.

G&C, if your still reading anything I have to say it, I'm really not trying to say that the story was bad (per say), but that it was just to boring for me too ever even really care about. It's not due to a fault of technical competency, but something more visceral, more emotional, or rather the lack there of. The characters actions might all be laid out in perfectly rational logic, but I just never feel like they are the ones making their own choices, but rather instead just being dragged along so that you can deliver an expositional message on social justice.

It's not even that it's a bad message you're trying to preach, but the preaching is just so painfully obvious that it keeps getting in the way, reminding me at every step that I'm not living out some epic fantasy adventure, but that I'm instead sitting in front of a computer screen reading a wall of text, and wishing I could be doing anything else with my time.

It's sort of a case of too much "telling" and not enough "showing". The characters shouldn't ever have to explain why they are right or someone else is wrong. They be able to let there actions, or even just there emotions speak for them. The audience should be able to judge it all for themselves, without needing to be told what opinion they are supposed to take out of each scene. I'm less concerned with a character's reason for doing things and more with how they feel while doing it (or how others around them react). I'd like to see you use some that talent of yours, when it comes to writing music and apply it to the characters. Don't just give us a technical check list rundown, infuse it all with a beautiful and resonate passion.

I'm really not trying to single you out or anything here. In fact, the reason I probably notice these flaws so much is that they are something I tend to struggle with in my own writing. The temptation to just keep writing out more and more exposition, to make absolutely certain the audience no ever single little minute detail, it can all be so very tempting. But I think it's always better to stop short and trust in the intelligence of our audience to understand and interpret for themselves. It's easier to go back after the fact and clear up any egregious misconceptions then it ever is to win back the attention of some one who got bored and quit.

My biggest disappointment isn't that I dislike anything in the story, but that I know you can do so much better. In the past you've written words that actually made me care about things I never thought I would, and that's what I want to see more of from you, no matter what the story is about.

3257423
The other problem with the field trip angle is this would be the second time Cheerilee's taken the class on a fieldtrip and foals got away from her.

As a possible alternative, it might be enough to get Carrot Top and Cheerilee to go along with Raindrops simply because the two are as worried about Snails as Raindrops is.

3257871
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How about this sequence of events: Cheerilee hears of the new Insectarium opening soon, she tells the class, Raindrops agrees to take Snails on opening day. Cheerilee is interested in checking it out as a potential field trip location, and she was recently thinking of visiting her old friend Duty so she decides to tag along. Carrot Top hears about the trip and explains that she's been meaning to go to a Farm equipment dealer on behalf of the Union for a while and think it would be a lot of fun to take the train with her friends.

So now the only coincidences are that the vigilantes plan their operation on the day of the insectarium openin and that Max stumbles onto the conspiracy. And I guess that Snails ends up near Greengrass.

Incidentally maybe the Farmer's Union could solve their acronym problem by doing 'Ponyville' at the beginning so it becomes PFU?